#robotics Logs

Jul 31 2020

02:30 AM energies23423: hello
02:37 AM energies23423: anyone here work with industrial robots?
02:37 AM rue_mohr: not that I'm aware of
02:37 AM rue_mohr: emusk might, but he's busy
03:49 AM mrdata: energies23423, dump trucks
03:49 AM mrdata: but not lately
03:49 AM mrdata: whats up
03:58 AM rue_mohr: mining?
04:44 AM energies23423: mrdata: sorry for the late reply - how much cheaper is something homebrew like an industrial-grade arduino vs industry PLC's?
04:45 AM mrdata: energies23423, virtually all arduino stuff is hobby grade
04:46 AM mrdata: they dont expect harsh environments you find in industrial uses
04:46 AM energies23423: https://industruino.com/
04:46 AM mrdata: checking
04:47 AM energies23423: https://www.rugged-circuits.com/videos
04:47 AM mrdata: you want your modules to deal with transient energies; and weather if you use them outdoors
04:49 AM mrdata: the stuff i did was custom circuit design for automotive; microcontroller boards, pneumatic and hydraulic controls for large equipment
04:49 AM mrdata: this page is interesting
04:51 AM mrdata: our boards had sensors and controls similar to these
04:51 AM mrdata: but sealed against weather
04:52 AM mrdata: including winter so resisted ice, salt, sand
04:53 AM mrdata: we had to attempt to survive a direct lightning strike
04:57 AM mrdata: also had to survive being plugged in backwards by mistake
04:57 AM energies23423: mrdata: if you had to guess - how much of the investment in a facility is in PLC equipment
04:57 AM energies23423: on average
04:57 AM mrdata: had reverse voltage indicator LED
04:57 AM energies23423: very very broad question - I know
04:57 AM energies23423: automotive I would assume it's astronomical
04:58 AM mrdata: it's hard to guess
04:58 AM mrdata: total equipment and labour might be on same order of magnitude
04:59 AM mrdata: but depends on degree of automation
04:59 AM mrdata: a car manufacturing plant in kentucky has 4 employees and the rest is robotic
05:10 AM energies23423: my interest is in making something at a lower cost by using self-done automation. Industrial arduino, old arms, etc
05:10 AM energies23423: old equipment
05:10 AM energies23423: but I'm curious how much would that actually cut down on cost, generally speaking as a rough estimate. If it's only 5% or so, it's probably not worth me going through the trouble
05:13 AM mrdata: with the above car plant, the sunk costs are large; but the machines run 24x7, they dont go on strike or demand pay increases
05:14 AM mrdata: you have to really analyze flexibility, reliability, maintenance,
05:14 AM mrdata: product life cycle
05:14 AM energies23423: I heard several companies like Toyota are putting humans back in place of automated equipment
05:15 AM mrdata: it's a scale i dont think i would consider unless i had a few dozen employees
05:15 AM energies23423: I was more interested in just doing something on a small scale.
05:15 AM energies23423: For example, cold heading making screws
05:16 AM mrdata: if you have a very specific application that you understand very well
05:16 AM mrdata: then you can automate
05:16 AM mrdata: highly repetitive tasks like screws are probably such an application
05:17 AM mrdata: if some guy's job is to pull a lever all day, then sure consider replacing that with a machine
05:17 AM mrdata: and give the guy something more interesting to do
05:18 AM mrdata: humans generally are far more flexible
05:19 AM mrdata: a slight change in procedure can be a major headache for automation
05:22 AM mrdata: so as a business process, automation is considered bottom up. you have an existing manual process that is repetitive that you tweak here and there
05:24 AM mrdata: a maker space here in toronto was given an old industrial robot; but it mainly sat in the corner and collected dust
05:24 AM mrdata: you want a planned use for each piece of equipment you get
05:40 AM energies23423: why did it sit in the corner and collect dust?
05:41 AM energies23423: That is the issue I've found with makerspaces. They're mostly revolving around hobby stuff and fun stuff. I don't care so much about that as much as I do about actually having something that makes money
06:16 AM mrdata: right
06:17 AM mrdata: for them, beyond the way cool factor, there wasnt much use for it
06:18 AM mrdata: it wasnt a manufacturing shop; but it had a full set of machines that did see quite a lot of use
06:18 AM energies23423: I went to a space in poland and they had an old single arm from a VW factory. It collected dust, as well
06:18 AM mrdata: a CNC milling machine, metal lathe, CNC router, laser cutter, 3D printers, welding, forge, various power tools
06:19 AM mrdata: electronics bench
06:20 AM mrdata: the repetitive tasks were all covered by specialized machines
06:22 AM mrdata: this thing was quite large; had a bunch of pneumatic attachments for various tools
06:22 AM mrdata: and controls circa 1990
06:23 AM energies23423: what I'm wanting to see is what can be done in a high-cost location with equipment that is currently not done in such a way as much
06:23 AM energies23423: I'm taking a CAD/CAM course for CNC now and also worked part-time at an injection molding shop
06:23 AM energies23423: before that, I worked in furniture
06:23 AM mrdata: what jobs do you have planned for it
06:23 AM energies23423: but my goal is to be on my own
06:24 AM energies23423: planned for CNC? Or you mean what work in general would I want to do? I mean doing anything that can be done cost-efficiently/competitively against offshored production
06:25 AM mrdata: ie: whats planned for the robot to do
06:25 AM energies23423: the problem is I am not a PLC or Arduino guy. I do have somewhat of a programming background as a hobby and when I worked worked years ago I had to do some programming. So I am not averse to learning it, but I'm trying to ascertain whether it's worth it
06:25 AM energies23423: well for example in cold heading, it would pickup the coils and put them into the heading machine, which then forms the screws. Then another would need to move the screws into boxes and put them somewhere
06:26 AM energies23423: Idk that screws are really going to be competitive - just giving an example
06:26 AM energies23423: I think I want to focus on things which have high material costs and are larger since larger means harder to ship
06:26 AM energies23423: and not too much assembly. Something like furniture, for example, would probably be a nightmare to implement heavy automation
06:27 AM energies23423: the assembly process of handling the different parts, gluing and stapling, and if it has fabric the added upholstery, it would make it a pain in the ass
06:28 AM mrdata: yeah
06:28 AM energies23423: I think what I'm going to try to do is ask some freight forwarders about how they got into sourcing. I've noticed some do that. Because without buyers, it's useless for me to set anything up. So maybe the best plan of attack would be broker freight, source products for someone, then look at producing it myself
06:29 AM mrdata: with the global markets unsettled there are opportunities to get into supply chain
06:29 AM energies23423: yes, that's what I'm banking on
06:29 AM energies23423: and the added push to buy local
06:29 AM energies23423: from before with politics
06:29 AM mrdata: yes
06:30 AM mrdata: what country are you in?
06:30 AM energies23423: currently I'm in Australia, but I am a US citizen just living abroad at the moment
06:30 AM mrdata: ok; australia is working very hard to contain covid
06:30 AM energies23423: I may leave here because finding work is getting pretty hard and I don't want to sit around all day when I could much more easily work in the US
06:30 AM energies23423: yes
06:30 AM energies23423: everything is closed here in Melbourne
06:30 AM energies23423: except take-out and essential businesses
06:31 AM mrdata: yeah; your daily case rate is worse than ours (toronto)
06:31 AM energies23423: 732 yesterday, 600 something today
06:31 AM mrdata: we have like 30 cases/day
06:31 AM energies23423: or maybe it was 800+ then 700+, I can't remember
06:31 AM energies23423: it's still going up despite lockdown
06:32 AM mrdata: it will do that for 3 or 4 weeks as people spread it within their household
06:32 AM energies23423: my personal opinion is that part of it may have to do with public attitude this lockdown vs last: many more businesses are open than last time and many more people are going about inside the city as normal
06:32 AM energies23423: until recently, there was no mask mandate and most did not wear masks
06:32 AM energies23423: ah
06:32 AM mrdata: masks and distancing are mandatory indoors here
06:33 AM mrdata: and apartment building common areas
06:33 AM mrdata: it's insidious because you can transmit it before you get symptoms
06:34 AM mrdata: so many people walk around spreading it without knowing
06:34 AM mrdata: so, what things on your supply chain are getting dicey?
06:35 AM energies23423: I think just about everything. I was looking into this before coronavirus
06:35 AM mrdata: my sister tells me in rhode island they cannot buy freezers
06:35 AM energies23423: but more than anything medical supplies
06:35 AM energies23423: hmm
06:35 AM mrdata: i have trouble finding large bags of whole wheat flour
06:36 AM mrdata: i bake bread, so i want that
06:36 AM mrdata: cant find popcorn either
06:36 AM mrdata: it's hard to get seeds
06:36 AM mrdata: of various things; whole mustard seed took me 2 months to find
06:37 AM mrdata: so staple items that people prep for are in high demand
06:37 AM mrdata: except it was easy to buy rice and potatoes
06:37 AM energies23423: do you go to makerspaces?
06:37 AM mrdata: i did
06:37 AM mrdata: not during lockdown
06:38 AM mrdata: there is a wood shop on spadina i would visit normally
06:38 AM mrdata: but i'm in the at-risk group and am strongly advised to isolate
06:39 AM mrdata: so i have been limiting grocery shopping to once every couple weeks; and downtown visits each 3 or 6 weeks
06:39 AM mrdata: as we re-open, i feel safer because everyone on transit is wearing masks, finally
06:41 AM mrdata: anyway, yes people are adivsing to buy local
06:41 AM energies23423: it's what, 4 or5 am in toronto?
06:41 AM mrdata: 7:40am here
06:42 AM mrdata: i'm up early today
06:43 AM mrdata: so to get into a supply chain you will have to have a product everyone wants, and be able to ramp up production in a hurry
06:43 AM mrdata: with as little personal contact as possible
06:44 AM mrdata: automation certainly can help that but unless you have a product right now, it is hard to say what you need
06:45 AM mrdata: or orders
06:45 AM energies23423: yes - what I've found is even if I have a product in mind, then the problem of having a buyer comes into the picture :-p
06:46 AM energies23423: so now I'm going towards freight forwarding, or working for a company where I can market their products somehow
06:46 AM mrdata: programming generic machines to do specific tasks at scale is non-trivial
06:46 AM energies23423: I could market the molding of my last company, but it's a bit harder to compete, I think. A lot is already automated
06:47 AM energies23423: and some of it that costs a lot is really hard to automate
06:47 AM energies23423: like the plastic process tech's job
06:47 AM energies23423: or modifying a mold that got shipped in
06:48 AM energies23423: the furniture place was possible. We just made parts. Flatbed router cuts on CNC's and beamsaws
06:48 AM mrdata: yes
06:48 AM energies23423: we had a finishing room, I think, but idk what they made there
06:49 AM energies23423: the most complex thing I ever did there was assemble drawers with a few other workers with the tasks broken up and using a staple gun running off an air compressor
06:49 AM energies23423: we were a supplier - we sold off the parts on to Leggett and Platt and others
06:49 AM energies23423: they actually did the final processing and assembly to a finished piece of furniture
06:50 AM energies23423: possible to automate that business, though - maybe
06:50 AM mrdata: when my sister ordered her freezer in march, she was put on a waiting list. she was like number 250 on the list; she checked yesterday and hasnt moved because the company could not import freezers and no one makes them in america
06:50 AM energies23423: hmm
06:50 AM mrdata: if you could make parts for freezers there might be a local market
06:50 AM mrdata: check around
06:50 AM energies23423: Whirlpool has a couple factories in the US
06:50 AM energies23423: but maybe they don't make freezers?
06:51 AM energies23423: I know they do washing machines or something like that
06:51 AM energies23423: that's a more complex product
06:51 AM energies23423: I'd need molds made for the parts
06:51 AM energies23423: metal fabricated for the frame
06:51 AM mrdata: a lot of factories are set to invest huge money to limit personal contact or they will go out of business
06:52 AM mrdata: people are telling me there will be upgrades to HVAC systems
06:52 AM mrdata: if you made parts for those, you could win, maybe too
06:52 AM energies23423: which parts? evaporator coils, capacitors?
06:53 AM energies23423: there is a company which makes capacitors in the US, but it costs a lot more
06:53 AM mrdata: they have to vent or treat stale air to stop virus aerosols
06:53 AM energies23423: I believe Titan? is the name? Or maybe that's the Chinese cheap one
06:54 AM mrdata: idk
06:55 AM mrdata: it's all predicated on the risk of aerosol generation; so any plant where that happens is done, if they dont upgrade
06:56 AM mrdata: automotive paint shops, dental industry, water fountains,
06:56 AM mrdata: you can just imagine
07:02 AM mrdata: i wonder where you could find lists of industrial products that have been on back-order for over 3 months
07:03 AM Jak_o_Shadows: Everything?
07:03 AM Jak_o_Shadows: Because america and covid?
07:03 AM mrdata: probably
07:04 AM ace4016: i can't get vapor catridges for my masks :(
07:05 AM mrdata: there ws a run, here, on 9V batteries
07:05 AM ace4016: maybe this will finally drive me to creating a paint chamber where i can paint things without having to wear a mask at all
07:05 AM mrdata: random things are suddenly out of stock; random other things are in surplus
07:06 AM mrdata: how do you map out the supply chains?
07:07 AM mrdata: find that one company with a million orders they cant fill, because they cant import a small part
07:07 AM mrdata: and make that part
07:09 AM mrdata: then ship them a few dozen samples free
07:09 AM mrdata: and be ready to scale up in a hurry
07:27 AM energies23423: apparently there's a lot of automotive supply chain that was disrupted because a good portion of that was in Wuhan
07:29 AM energies23423: I wish I could find a place where there are likeminded people. Unfortunately, makerspaces are mostly bespoke hobbyists
07:29 AM energies23423: I'm not willing to go pay tens of thousands of dollars to study mechatronics somewhere just to do it, either
11:37 AM mrdata: wuhan is back in business
11:37 AM mrdata: oh he left