#robotics Logs
Oct 08 2018
#robotics Calendar
03:27 AM Jak_o_Shadows: theBear, doing anyhthing with the motor, or just playing?
04:58 AM flav0r: HEY HEY
09:17 PM rue_mohr: --
09:17 PM orlock: yo
09:18 PM rue_mohr: theBear, hey
09:18 PM rue_mohr: orlock, !
09:18 PM rue_mohr: dude did you get it!?!?!?!
09:18 PM rue_mohr: how could you dissapear for 3 days after I was making a design for ya!?
09:19 PM theBear: i've always "got it", and if yer paranoid about entrapment and such, don't worry bout that eitehr, 'cos apparently i'm also "cool" hehe
09:19 PM theBear: who me ? cos if so you shouldn't design for me when i'm that far gone with pain and associated sleepy-makey pills <grin>
09:19 PM rue_mohr: theBear, so, no bevels from china eh?
09:19 PM orlock: rue_mohr:Weekend, i hardly touch the PC on the weekend
09:20 PM orlock: i got it but the URL was munged - send again?
09:20 PM rue_mohr: orlock, did you get the design?
09:20 PM orlock: / 's get stripped out of my messages
09:20 PM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/not_public_dont_open/orlocks_parts/main.dxf
09:20 PM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/not_public_dont_open/orlocks_parts/main.scad
09:20 PM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/not_public_dont_open/orlocks_parts/orlocks_parts1.jpg
09:20 PM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/not_public_dont_open/orlocks_parts/orlocks_parts2.png
09:20 PM rue_mohr: ?
09:21 PM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/not_public_dont_open/orlocks_parts/orlocks_parts1.jpg
09:21 PM rue_mohr: ^^6mmmm
09:21 PM orlock: yup, got it, looking
09:22 PM orlock: hah, cheers, yeah thats it
09:23 PM theBear: rue_mohr, i ain't no powerful world-changing economic beast like china, but what i can do as an afterthought while considering if a wire needs some heatshrink or some component needs a spot of goop (for longevity in mounting) with a rusty razorblade or even the edge of some cheap old 3/4size pliers sure gets a lot closer to showroom quality bevel'ed (vs brain-surgery blade grade sharp (hehe, a poet and i didn't know it, WOAHHHhhh))
09:24 PM rue_mohr: orlock, get the two files
09:24 PM rue_mohr: the dxf and the scad, see how I did it
09:24 PM rue_mohr: note the lack of polygons?
09:24 PM orlock: yup, linear extrude on the dxf
09:24 PM rue_mohr: check the render speed on your machine
09:24 PM rue_mohr: I suspect you will find it renders stupid-fast
09:25 PM orlock: will do when i'm in front of my machine - but my real rendering issue was caused by the threads anyway
09:25 PM rue_mohr: yes and no, when you do it with extrusions like that, it seems to speed it up a LOT
09:28 PM theBear: on that note, it starting to look like i'm the only person south of the tropics that has ever said "yeah ok" when asked to repair e-bike stuff... well, that is the only REMOTELY qualified person, and one that actual distributor/dealer/shops thought was worth asking, rather than plebians asking their cowboy-plebian associates <grin> was thinking IF i still repaired for livelihood, it'd be a good area to be in... these days almsot everything you used
09:28 PM theBear: to get jobs repairing is so damned cheap to replace new with a year or more warranty that you gotta pretty much get repairs down to a FAST art, get the right fault(s) the first time, with quick diagnosis and quick testing, cos if yer get close to maybe 90mins you already costing more than the replacement, BUT seems electric bike stuff doesn't get superlow in prices, therefore repairs look not only attractive to customers again, but in many cases
09:28 PM theBear: kinda essential..
09:28 PM rue_mohr: haha! I did it, I implemented taining a suptidly simple software neural network
09:28 PM orlock: yeah, even sticking with polygons i did a few silly things that just made the render times go exponential i think
09:30 PM rue_mohr: theBear, diy ones or like, origionally electric?
09:30 PM rue_mohr: orlock, there were things I found while making it
09:31 PM rue_mohr: did you intend the 'big block' to only come to the edge of the ring?
09:31 PM rue_mohr: (inside)
09:31 PM theBear: of course, i have got my old industry/job style of repairs down to a very elegant art over the years, but big picture, there only a handful (MAYBE jsut barely double digits) of positions for something like entertainment/audio/lighting industry techs in a big country like this one cos of the cheap new stuff (which i do LOVE when not thinking bout big global economic trends :] ) so even if you ARE good, you gotta "know people" or be super lucky to
09:31 PM theBear: land a fulltime shelter+food supplying kinda job
09:32 PM rue_mohr: orlock, I want to know how the rendering time does on your machine tho eh?
09:32 PM rue_mohr: theBear, I did a neural network!
09:32 PM rue_mohr: 0 hidden layers!
09:32 PM orlock: rue_mohr: I will, not in front of my machine right now, at the office..
09:33 PM rue_mohr: in 8 passes it learned a nor gate
09:33 PM Tom_L: video help?
09:34 PM theBear: rue_mohr, bit of both, and the shop has EVERYTHING silly/unusual that erm, isn't a car or a bus i spose... everything from those tiny little novely motorbikes from a few years back, thru giant oversized petrol AND electrified offroad soft-tyre skateboard kinda things (that's a seperate product and, not both on one skateboard hehe) to (wait for it, this one is the mind blower !) a pair of rollerblades in the special display cabinet.... unbelievably
09:34 PM theBear: not a custom thing, but something they ordered from their usual i dunno, maybe 2stoke bike supplier in eu/ch... a pair of rollerblades with a 50cc 2stroke for EACH FOOT ! so insanely silly i still can't get over it
09:35 PM rue_mohr: theBear, jester was working at a disability scooter shop for a while, with what he knew, he was the repair wizard
09:36 PM orlock: disability scooter's hopefully better built - a lot of the cheaper e-bike/tok stuff is all made to a (low low) price
09:37 PM theBear: but most of what i sort out is just big battery packs (occasionally actual blown-up "bms" power devices (pcb inside big lithiums that both protects and helps balance during charging, you get the idea) but more often things like connectors been monkey-wrenched or hidden blade fuses killed by a dead short doing something silly while messing about with the cabling) and of course big 3ph "stepper" drivers between batts and the motor which is usually an
09:37 PM theBear: oversized wheel-hub... all super easy technically
09:37 PM orlock: i think i'm going to put my Pololu motor control board into my son's PowerWheels jeep
09:37 PM orlock: it's one motor per rear wheel, but no torque/thrust vectoring
09:37 PM orlock: the turning circle is utter crap
09:37 PM orlock: and kids suck at 3 point turns
09:38 PM orlock: if i hook a put up to the steering shaft, i could use that to manage splitting the power per-wheel
09:41 PM theBear: rue_mohr, mmm, everyone elese related to this place is basically a career pushbike shop mechanic (technical skill wise) so even the smartest of 'em aren't qualified to do much more than diagnose/fix a headlight, which is perfect cos it means i don't get to jobs already half butchered by someone who shouldn't have attempted, and i don't have to do any of that stuff that don't work good with crippled'ness like lifting big heavy bikes etc... tho on a
09:41 PM theBear: related but unrelated note, i have recently done some actual wheel-smithing for the first time in some years, which i quite enjoy, and makes me an official ????????-smith which is hard these days (by actual i mean paid for and by request, not just taking a lump outta my own or a friends wheel cos i think wheels should always be sexy and straight <grin>)
09:42 PM rue_mohr: like adjusting bicycle wheel spokes?
09:42 PM theBear: heh, a buddy got a couple of those kinda things for his tiny (currently) daughters... they kick ASS compared to even what the odd rich kid had when i was school age, both battery and motor/control/appearance, plus it's hilarious to see a maybe 2-3' high little girl come around the corner in the backyard in this HUGE hummer styled thing
09:44 PM theBear: yep, wheelsmithing traditionally covers both adusting and lacing spokes (or i spose in the times of wooden spokes and wooden everything else pretty much, that it covered making/installing those, i dunno, i only picked up the skill (was trained that is,) in the early 90s, and there wasn't much call for all timber wheels at that bikeshop, least, not when i was there <grin>
09:45 PM theBear: i just love saying it to people, even myself.... yer just don't meet anything-smiths these days, not unless yer visiting a pioneer err, not-funpark kinda village
09:46 PM orlock: https://millngreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/12-volt-ride-on-jeep-elegant-12-volt-battery-powered-hummer-jeep-gba26-black-ride-of-12-volt-ride-on-jeep.jpg
09:47 PM Tom_L: skilled trades are dying off
09:47 PM orlock: dropping 10kg from the front end and booting the voltage up to 14.8 meand i really have to run to keep up
09:47 PM orlock: it still gets bogged in some areas of our backyard
09:50 PM theBear: hehe, that's got much more minor (fancy looking) cosmetic/clone touches on it, very nice... and we ain't quite at the age for vehicle upgrades yet... maybe in 6 months or a year (i guess, i dunno much about what ages/times tiny kids take to get good at things, fortunately i don't own any myself) it'll be time for some not-half-dead batteries upgrade, then we can think about moving weight and getting all that raw power down onto the tarmac instead
09:50 PM theBear: of turned into smoke hehe
09:50 PM orlock: This one was second hand, it's already had a few upgrades/replacements/tweaks
09:51 PM orlock: the guy was telling me he used to have a pair of 12v SLA batteries in series in it
09:51 PM orlock: and it could do circlework on the driveway
09:52 PM orlock: he had a very tidy XA ford in his garage
10:06 PM theBear: Tom_L,mmm, if yer caught what i said a little bit earlier re: making a living from ANY industry(s) technical/electronic repair/service it's kinda surprising there is anyone skilled still around... between machines that can do stuff "perfectly" and super-fast for a lotta production, and huge assembly lines in 3rdworld-ish countries where they got people assembling whatever the place makes, but each one will hjave a single job maybe as simple as "you
10:06 PM theBear: get this hot stick and silver wire, make those 2 long metal things attach to these 2 rectangles... repeat for the next couple years"
10:10 PM theBear: that 2nd one also explains some of the CRAZY wackiness you sometimes see inside stuff these days, and often see if you do warranties for some modern products... you can't really blame someone for putting a tiny little valve backwards in a few hundred boxes of little tiny oscillating ac pumps (very similar to sprinkler solenoids in many regards, either way they need a simple 1way pressure-triggered valve or two so they pump instead of just wiggle, in
10:10 PM theBear: a sane world QC dept would at least plug in 1 from every box or even 50 boxes, check that is DOES actually pump... when you got a production line of almost as many people as there are components in such a tiny assembly, all of them literally unware of what they are making, only knowing what their little step in it is, suddenly a lotta those warranty faults are a lot more understandable
10:15 PM theBear: at the same time, the guys i just used for my example can make a PERFECT replica of a brand name commercial 15bar coffee machine pump (from memory identical to the one in a lotta aoyue's cheaper air stations, on the suction side likely, they ain't really good for high flow specially in something as not viscous as air, still i sure that's what i spotted thru the grill) for maybe 1/10th of the price, and that's including the 6week cruise ship ticket
10:15 PM theBear: they need on the way here from VERY far far faaaar away... and of course when i say "PERFECT" i mean except for the occasional MASSIVE batch of ones that don't work at all cos someone new started and put their one little piece in place backwards for quite a few days before anyone noticed (gotta wait till they ship to here and get used/installed by someone like me who has the clearance to know what the final assy is designed/supposed to achieve :] )
10:33 PM orlock: theBear: heh
10:33 PM orlock: theBear: depending on the brand that thing may have been designed here
10:34 PM orlock: theBear: one of the areas they specialise in is fluidics and bevarages, though they usually work in much more expensive liquids
10:34 PM orlock: theBear: All of those people and things you are talking about, we have here. it's awesome
10:34 PM orlock: but also at a completely different price point
10:39 PM rue_mohr: theBear, I think that xmms actaully distorts playback unless you use the eq and bring the bias down a bit
10:39 PM rue_mohr: thought it was my 3db booster, but no
10:39 PM theBear: i dunno where "here" is, but as i recall it was an italian (commercial espresso machine err, industry/related company, i dunno, i only ever dealt with/spoke to them about spares, and usually for things like smoke-machines that they probably didn't much care for <grin>) company that first made this very commonly cloned style (there were 2 models, a big one maybe 2 or 2.5" dia red plastic molding around the coil (majority of the part) rated 15bar
10:39 PM theBear: pumping into a sealed chamber (which is a lot like trying to force water thru a tamped pad of espresso grinds) and the smaller same red plastic but more the size of a common garden sprinkler solenoid, and the part number SOMETHING like M15024 for the bigger version
10:41 PM theBear: but much like that very old (aka early) switching controller chip, and the by far most common rs48?/"dmx"(rs485 based industry standard) transceiver, i can't ever get those numbers straight, they're kinda like dyslexic-kryptonite, ya know, if i was superman and erm, he/i was dyslexic AND it was exaggerated by kryptonite, by which i suppose i mean those 3 specific chip p/n's <grin>
10:43 PM theBear: rue_mohr, i strongly agree, which has always kinda seemed a bit "harder than not effing up yer ALL DIGITAL gain structure/audio path" cos ya know, digital land, it's almost always trivial or literally zero-cost to not gain (pos or neg) a signal, but far from trivial to add a few dB in the same arena
10:44 PM theBear: might be something related to the playback-gain whatchacallit settings/options/implementation ... you know, that thing that sposed to adjust levels slightly (fixed gain (pos or neg) per track as i recall, and forgot completely where the data/sense for what that gain should be came from)
11:00 PM rue_mohr: what I dont get about the neural network think
11:00 PM rue_mohr: thing,
11:00 PM rue_mohr: is that if biological networks are working the same way, what is the error term comming from
11:02 PM z64555: error term being the delta between intended and actual value?
11:02 PM rue_mohr: the error used to adjust eh network
11:03 PM z64555: that would be from either memory, another network, or from sensory data
11:04 PM z64555: nn's only simulate whats going on, but don't fully replicate the nervous system of biologicals
11:04 PM theBear: huh ? outta context it sounds a LOT like y'all talking about somewhere between "1bit d-a" aka delta-sigma style, and how things like analog servo's or simple saw/triangle+comparator style "same concept as the servos" works for simple pwm generation
11:04 PM theBear: i bettin' that in-context that observation doesn't help much at all tho <grin>
11:05 PM rue_mohr: hmm
11:06 PM rue_mohr: I'm also trying to udnerstand how neuons get 'singled out' for weight adjustment in a bio system
11:06 PM rue_mohr: *but* the software seems to show that adjusting only active signals works
11:08 PM z64555: I never did get that far in nn's :(
11:09 PM z64555: my brain said "oh, they're just like fuzzy logic networks" and lost interest
11:09 PM rue_mohr: playing with software and spreadsheets, the amazing thing is the tolerance in values it takes to make it stop working
11:09 PM rue_mohr: but really good for 'that is *this* much like that'
11:11 PM rue_mohr: for example, I'm using a random number for training co-efficient, and so far, for the most part, it speeds up the networks ability to learn
11:14 PM rue_mohr: hmm
11:15 PM rue_mohr: nothing is ever there that wasn't there before in another form
11:15 PM rue_mohr: so make things in any forms when youhave the chance, and let them transform into other things later
11:21 PM rue_mohr: and the network connection structure dosn't matter
11:22 PM rue_mohr: mark tilden only missed by a bit
11:24 PM rue_mohr: I also want to understand the required resolution of the weights of the neurons, its possible that the number of connections can be varried instead
11:29 PM rue_mohr: iiiinteresting
11:29 PM rue_mohr: no, you cannot train a network by adjusting inactive neurons
11:30 PM rue_mohr: 50 attempts, 100% failure
11:33 PM z64555: um. yeah? If the neuron is inactive, its not sending any output to other neurons
11:34 PM rue_mohr: but it cant be used to counter the active ones in a stable manner
11:34 PM rue_mohr: so, ok
11:35 PM rue_mohr: it indicates that only active neurons can learn
11:35 PM rue_mohr: which is why tv kills your brain
11:36 PM z64555: can confirm from my days of sleeping in classrooms
11:36 PM rue_mohr: hmm
11:36 PM theBear: "<rue_mohr> no, you cannot train a network by adjusting inactive neurons" to my ears, this sounds like a challenge ! and no, i don't mean a technical/programming related challenge <grin>
11:37 PM rue_mohr: hah
11:37 PM z64555: next thing we know, theBear tries to fully train a sleeping dog to fetch the paper
11:37 PM rue_mohr: errors[i] = (frand()/2.0)*inputs[i]*(target-result); // inputs are 0 or 1, so here, only active neurons are changed.
11:37 PM rue_mohr: hahah
11:38 PM theBear: maybe i won't achieve ACTUAL inteligence/conscience with the experiment, but i bet i shift around enough inactives i could do a damned fine impression of it, heh, better than a lotta people i see when i visit a supermarket or such public place
11:38 PM rue_mohr: from what I can tell, sleep resets a learning rate rolloff
11:39 PM theBear: z64555, heh, like the old bad-joke single-frame cartoons ... "can't flog a dead horse ? the hell i can't !" with some figure wearing chaps with a whip about to be whipped, and the remains of some poor pulverised horse on the ground
11:39 PM rue_mohr: mhm
11:40 PM rue_mohr: so, I need to restructre this code
11:42 PM rue_mohr: drat, i'm too tired to think again
11:43 PM theBear: in a cartoon i quite like there's a episode where one guy racks up a HUGE debt with a heavy duty bookie, the big/tough bad-man who works for the bookie is threatening him in some little back room, the term "what's he gonna do ? you can't get blood outta a stone !" comes outta one mouth, someone tosses a kinda head-sized rock to the big guy, who catches it in both hands and makes a little tiny grunt and angles his arms a bit, as if he were squeezing
11:43 PM theBear: the rock, suddenly the rock shatters, a few little bits of rock and dust kinda fall to the ground, but there's also a little kinda fountain/explosion of red liquid, like you might see in a low budget movie when someone's head exploded somehow <grin> that's my kinda comedy !
11:43 PM theBear: and now i'm REALLY walkin' out the door ! l8r taters
11:44 PM rue_mohr: gnght
11:45 PM rue_mohr: maybe thats what happens with crack, its not killing the neurons, its keeping everything so active that the learning goes to hell, so badly that everything thats been learned starts to disintegrate
11:45 PM rue_mohr: overlearning
11:45 PM rue_mohr: kinda
11:48 PM z64555: happens with caffeine + sugar rush, too, so it may hold true for overdoses of any stimulant
11:48 PM rue_mohr: along the lines of what I was just thinking
11:50 PM rue_mohr: so, I suppose the next question, is 'can I teach a hidden layer network by using the 'perfection' technique
11:52 PM mrdata_: what is the 'perfection' technique
11:53 PM rue_mohr: do you know the game "perfection"
11:53 PM mrdata_: no?
11:53 PM rue_mohr: fit eh peices before the timer or they al pop out
11:56 PM rue_mohr: the implementation is to randomly change the values for all active neurons untill successfully trained
11:56 PM rue_mohr: which is 'crazy'
11:56 PM rue_mohr: so far, its showing it'll work fine
11:58 PM z64555: which is kinda how real learning is done, make a mutation in an existing technique, or fail miserably a dozen times until you find something that works
11:59 PM rue_mohr: its also how the balancer in a cdrom works
11:59 PM rue_mohr: and there is a LOT of math to show it works
11:59 PM mrdata_: if you use an echo state network, you need to train only inputs and outputs
11:59 PM rue_mohr: ? dunno
11:59 PM rue_mohr: I'm new to this