#robotics Logs

Oct 30 2017

12:42 AM rue_bed: its a problem in need of a long term soluion
04:11 AM yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy
09:42 AM rue_mohr: no news this morning eh?
09:44 AM robotustra: no news
09:44 AM rue_mohr: hmm,
09:45 AM robotustra: < rue_shop3> I want to clear up my bench, but I'm not sure what to do with two large robots
09:45 AM robotustra: what are big robots?
09:45 AM rue_mohr: I flashed the new cnc pendant yesterday, its showing initial signs of life
09:45 AM rue_mohr: one of them is about 1/2m^2 and the other is a tall arm (when folded up)
09:46 AM robotustra: what is the goal for these robots?
09:46 AM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/arm5/p1030984.jpg
09:46 AM rue_mohr: you can see the hexapod on the left of the table
09:47 AM robotustra: no, I can't
09:47 AM rue_mohr: the hexapod is to show the world how a walking alg should be done (there are only 1 or 2 out there that walk properly, none at the time the project was started)
09:48 AM robotustra: linear actuators a getting bigger and bigger
09:48 AM rue_mohr: the arm was built by some of the kids that came by to learn some robotics
09:48 AM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/buddy_III/p1020056.jpg
09:50 AM robotustra: only 4 legs?
09:50 AM rue_mohr: middle two are pointing up
09:50 AM rue_mohr: squint harder
09:50 AM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/buddy_III/p1020058.jpg
09:51 AM rue_mohr: http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/buddy_III/p1020053.jpg
09:51 AM robotustra: ah, I see
09:52 AM robotustra: what is the consumption?
09:52 AM rue_mohr: 2002? "I think the only way it will be able to get thru the doorway is by walking on end"
09:52 AM rue_mohr: of the motors?
09:53 AM robotustra: of the whole robot
09:53 AM robotustra: while walking
09:53 AM rue_mohr: dont think I'v measured it
09:53 AM robotustra: approximately
09:53 AM rue_mohr: the mtoors total max is 18A @ 24V, burst
09:53 AM rue_mohr: (1A ea)
09:54 AM rue_mohr: it can almost stand at 24V 1A
09:54 AM rue_mohr: total
09:54 AM rue_mohr: (less computer)
09:55 AM robotustra: when it moves it should consume more
09:55 AM robotustra: 24 Watt * 6 motors?
09:57 AM SpeedEvil: What do you mean by walk properly
09:57 AM SpeedEvil: Do you mean by using walk patterns?
09:57 AM SpeedEvil: Or dynamically, or both
09:57 AM rue_mohr: it'd be a long story
09:57 AM rue_mohr: I'm headed out for work
09:58 AM SpeedEvil: ah
09:58 AM rue_mohr: 24W is the peak for the motors, they would prolly normally draw 6 or so
10:35 AM robotustra: it's pity that guys like rue and me should work to earn some money to live instead of making robots in the lab
11:36 AM deshipu: well, you can always just starve
11:37 AM deshipu: nobody forces your to work
11:56 AM robotustra: you are wrong. the system forces everyone to work
11:59 AM weyland|yutani: robotustra, not if youre rich
12:00 PM deshipu: robotustra: you always have other options, they may be sucky, but you have them
12:08 PM robotustra: weyland|yutani, do you really think so?
12:08 PM robotustra: deshipu, if you want better live why should you select sucky options?
12:10 PM weyland|yutani: robotustra, if you are 200 million heavy you dont have to work a thing until you die unless you squander it away
12:15 PM robotustra: weyland|yutani, you do not know nothing about millioneers
12:16 PM robotustra: they work hard to multiply their money
12:52 PM deshipu: robotustra: then select the non-sucky options, hit: whining is not one of them
12:52 PM deshipu: hint even
12:56 PM robotustra: who told you that I'm whining? I'm just dreaming
12:56 PM robotustra: what to find a sponsor to give me some money to free me from work and let me work on robots 40 hours a working week
12:58 PM deshipu: I can see that
12:58 PM deshipu: why don't you get a job with robots then?
12:59 PM * veverak is trying to achieve that on university ;)
01:04 PM deshipu: yeah, but that requires actual effort
01:06 PM robotustra: deshipu, I have the work with robot's already, but I don't want people to give me a tasks when I have my ideas to inplement
01:06 PM robotustra: I want to build my own robots
01:07 PM robotustra: according to my plan
01:07 PM deshipu: you have a strange idea of what "work" is
01:07 PM robotustra: not to sombodies
01:07 PM deshipu: and why would anyone in the world want to pay you for *that*?
01:07 PM robotustra: did you ever work?
01:07 PM deshipu: of course not
01:07 PM deshipu: they pay me for stuff I would do anyways
01:08 PM robotustra: so, IMHO, you don't know what are you talking even about :)
01:08 PM deshipu: I'm not talking even
01:08 PM deshipu: I talk rough
01:08 PM robotustra: ty s polski?
01:08 PM robotustra: z*
01:09 PM deshipu: we met
01:09 PM robotustra: nie
01:10 PM polprog: i think i may end up in robotics
01:10 PM robotustra: polprog, it
01:10 PM robotustra: polprog, it's not the worst ending
01:10 PM deshipu: polprog: I'd advise against
01:10 PM robotustra: ha ha
01:11 PM polprog: i will definitely go for electronics
01:11 PM polprog: (i will have to choose next year)
01:11 PM robotustra: any kid will finally end up either with robotics or programming
01:11 PM polprog: why would you think that?
01:12 PM polprog: there are a lot of other jobs
01:12 PM deshipu: or medicine, or law, or firemen, or one of the 1000 other jobs there are in the world
01:12 PM polprog: ^^
01:12 PM robotustra: in 10-15 years from here more than 50% of jobs will be perfomed by robots
01:12 PM deshipu: but that is not the "real" kid then
01:12 PM robotustra: somebody should repair and program them
01:12 PM polprog: and design them
01:12 PM polprog: first
01:12 PM deshipu: that will be done by robots too
01:13 PM deshipu: of course
01:13 PM robotustra: for sure
01:13 PM deshipu: once the singularity comes
01:13 PM deshipu: REPENT, THE END IS NEAR!
01:13 PM robotustra: deshipu, yes, partially designed by robot if humans decide to make such robot
01:13 PM veverak: lol
01:13 PM veverak: 10-15 years
01:13 PM veverak: funny
01:14 PM veverak: ;)
01:14 PM robotustra: veverak, yeah, it's too optimistic, may be in 20-30
01:14 PM deshipu: or 200-300
01:14 PM deshipu: but no more than 2000-3000
01:14 PM polprog: in a finite amount of time
01:14 PM deshipu: unless it will be 20000-30000
01:14 PM veverak: polprog: best tip for now
01:14 PM veverak: :)
01:15 PM robotustra: in 200-300 years humans might be gone completely
01:15 PM veverak: robotustra: you read scifi too much
01:15 PM robotustra: if they will behave like you
01:15 PM deshipu: depends on how you define humans
01:15 PM robotustra: veverak, I'm doing scifi at work really
01:16 PM deshipu: veverak: actually if he read sci-fi, he would know better
01:16 PM deshipu: veverak: he *watches* too much
01:16 PM veverak: deshipu: got a point
01:16 PM veverak: yeah
01:16 PM veverak: deshipu: anyway, I was seriously thinking about a way to stay on university for additional work on robots
01:17 PM veverak: problem is, robotics in any way is not done on my university
01:17 PM robotustra: Last time I watched scifi movie may be 6 month ago or so
01:17 PM robotustra: veverak, transfer to another uni?
01:18 PM veverak: may not be necessary
01:18 PM veverak: I won't be first one to study something on university that does not do that usually
01:18 PM robotustra: veverak, or you can start a new direction in your uni
01:18 PM deshipu: veverak: come to ETH :)
01:18 PM veverak: It may be possible that only reason it is not here, is because they don't have people
01:19 PM polprog: ETH is on my target list
01:19 PM veverak: and I was able to self-study a lot of stuff about robotics
01:19 PM veverak: deshipu: been thinking about that :)
01:19 PM veverak: deshipu: they have interesting quadrupeds inside the lab
01:19 PM deshipu: veverak: though the beer is expensive here
01:19 PM * veverak does not drink beer
01:19 PM deshipu: perfect then
01:19 PM veverak: and I realized that I don't need hitech lab
01:19 PM veverak: for the things I am interested in
01:20 PM veverak: like, the "missing hardware" is not problem at all
01:20 PM veverak: I would only enjoy some people to talk with
01:20 PM veverak: and there is big new institued in city close to mine
01:20 PM veverak: so, maybe some "between university cooperation" could be done
01:20 PM deshipu: that would be great
01:20 PM veverak: and I could help with estabilishing robotics on my university
01:21 PM veverak: you know, taking care of few robots, maybe preparing some course
01:21 PM veverak: given the fact that I strongly prefer lowcost hardware and stuff, it may not be so hrad to convice them
01:21 PM deshipu: and I bet they do want to have such a faculty, if only for the name
01:22 PM veverak: yep
01:22 PM veverak: "give me some money (look, my stuff is cheap!), feed me so I can do my research, in return I will provide you with some robots to use on the faculty"
01:22 PM veverak: something like that
01:23 PM robotustra: that's the plan
01:23 PM deshipu: except much more talking to people is involved
01:24 PM veverak: only missing problem is that it would be nice to have supervisor that understands the topic I am working on
01:24 PM veverak: :)
01:24 PM robotustra: I make a prototype and grant it for humanity
01:24 PM veverak: deshipu: yep
01:24 PM veverak: deshipu: but hey, I figured out I like teaching at university
01:24 PM deshipu: robotustra: you know what would solve all those problems?
01:24 PM deshipu: KILL ALL HUMANS!
01:24 PM robotustra: deshipu, no
01:24 PM polprog: remove all users, they cause problems!
01:25 PM robotustra: you watch too much Futurama
01:25 PM deshipu: user-less systems are the most stable
01:25 PM veverak: deshipu: and I was even thinking about launching second project aside the quadruped
01:25 PM veverak: deshipu: some two wheel raspberry pi
01:25 PM veverak: deshipu: made as cheap and as simple as possible
01:25 PM veverak: deshipu: with encoders and rpi camera
01:25 PM deshipu: veverak: have you seen those tiny little arm bots?
01:25 PM robotustra: veverak, what is your project?
01:26 PM deshipu: veverak: https://hackaday.io/project/11399-micro-robots-for-education
01:26 PM veverak: deshipu: so I could easily deploy ROS with SLAM
01:26 PM veverak: tha tis interesting enough
01:26 PM veverak: to base some course on it
01:26 PM veverak: :)
01:26 PM deshipu: veverak: they are cheap, small, robust and work with ROS
01:27 PM veverak: interesting
01:27 PM veverak: well
01:27 PM deshipu: plus, you can use them in a classroom on the desk -- no need to use the floor
01:27 PM veverak: I want something that is interesting enough for other research and stuff
01:27 PM veverak: rpi3 size robot can be used on the desk too
01:28 PM veverak: and it has enough computing capability for interesting stuff
01:28 PM deshipu: well, those run the program on the pc
01:28 PM deshipu: so you have as much computing power as you need, plus easy debugging
01:29 PM veverak: yeah, trade off I am not exactly found of
01:29 PM deshipu: have you seen the beagle bone pocket?
01:29 PM veverak: (rpi3 + ROS can of course run anything on the PC too, with easy debugging and all)
01:30 PM veverak: deshipu: low RAM
01:32 PM deshipu: ram is expensive
01:32 PM deshipu: then again, I'm recently working on a platform with 32kB ram
01:32 PM deshipu: and running python
01:33 PM veverak: I definetly want standalone robots, or robots that are capable of it
01:33 PM veverak: SLAM is computationaly expensive
01:33 PM veverak: so is navigation in unknown environment
01:33 PM deshipu: java is computationally expensive
01:33 PM veverak: there is not java used anywhere :)
01:33 PM deshipu: ROS?
01:33 PM veverak: ros can use jove
01:33 PM veverak: *java
01:34 PM veverak: but I am not aware of single thing that uses it
01:34 PM veverak: oh, yeah, entire rosandroid thing
01:34 PM robotustra: this robot's definetely can't kill humans
01:34 PM veverak: but nah
01:34 PM veverak: :)
01:34 PM robotustra: not serious
01:35 PM deshipu: the whole design of ros smells of java
01:35 PM veverak: not really
01:35 PM veverak: it does not force you to do things one way
01:35 PM deshipu: well, java only did that until they changed what that one way was supposed to do for the fifth time
01:36 PM veverak: anyway, ROS expects that robot is collection of programs executed at once, that communicates with each other
01:36 PM veverak: + tools to manage that
01:37 PM veverak: (in simple terms)
01:37 PM veverak: deshipu: I do not see the "java" in there
01:37 PM deshipu: all that xml...
01:37 PM theBear: and JOEY's catchphrase is "how YOU doin ?"
01:37 PM veverak: deshipu: package description and files that defines what to launch are xml, true
01:38 PM theBear: sorry, saw ross in my head and couldn't resist... /me also enjoys repeating those 3 words in a specific kinda way, and there's really no knowing why
01:39 PM veverak: but, ehmm, given that I generate the launch files , I do not see them much :)
01:44 PM robotustra: human killer robots should not use java
01:46 PM veverak: deshipu: btw: ROS2 will use python instead of those xml files
01:46 PM deshipu: robotustra: that would be... inhumane :D
01:46 PM weyland|yutani: veverak, do you give ros a real chance to become some quasi standard in the future?
01:48 PM robotustra: java kills humand without even any robots
01:48 PM robotustra: java kills humans without even any robots
01:48 PM polprog: "3 million devices run java"
01:48 PM veverak: weyland|yutani: it is too complex for a lot of applications
01:48 PM veverak: or, pointlessly complex
01:48 PM polprog: even the installer is trying to give you a stroke
01:48 PM veverak: however, for a complex setups, I hope so
01:48 PM robotustra: run java and do nothing
01:49 PM veverak: either ROS, or something that has the idea that robot should use collection of app working together
01:49 PM polprog: java was the first programming language i learnt
01:49 PM robotustra: I avoid it by any mean
01:50 PM weyland|yutani: polprog, mine too i still hate it
01:50 PM veverak: :D
01:50 PM polprog: i didnt write anything in it for the last 3 years
01:55 PM robotustra: if you want to be serious in robotics - start with C
01:56 PM robotustra: after -> python or golang
01:56 PM polprog: i already program avrs in c, and assembly
01:56 PM robotustra: polprog, so, you are already serious
01:56 PM polprog: ;)
01:56 PM polprog: thanks
01:56 PM robotustra: java - is not for robotics
01:57 PM polprog: yeah, i dont use it any more really,
01:57 PM robotustra: if you want to make humans future even worser - make robots on java, if not - program them in C
01:58 PM polprog: what i need to look at is the robotic part of robotics - mechanisms, etc
01:58 PM polprog: im planning to build a 2d plotter
02:26 PM robotustra: polprog, what size?
03:02 PM polprog: depends what parts i can get
03:02 PM polprog: A3 at least
03:03 PM robotustra: what for you'll use the plotter?
03:03 PM polprog: nothing specific, its more about building it to get skills, and then, well, i will have a plotter
03:04 PM robotustra: hm..
03:05 PM robotustra: do you know how to connect stepper motor?
03:05 PM polprog: yeah
03:05 PM robotustra: 2 motors?
03:05 PM polprog: i even made a driver pcb for one, 4 channel, high power mos
03:05 PM polprog: 2 steppers?
03:05 PM polprog: should be trivial...
03:06 PM robotustra: so, the plotter should be trivial as well
03:07 PM robotustra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFk969mlIQE
03:07 PM polprog: i dont have access for example to design a specific part, so i guess i will have to resort to printer parts
03:07 PM polprog: i have a a3-size dot matrix in the basement
03:08 PM robotustra: I would not recommend you to use old parts
03:08 PM polprog: i feel that it will be hard to put it together
03:08 PM robotustra: for the device you are going to use for a long time
03:08 PM polprog: so im skeptical too
03:09 PM polprog: but i have no experience in CAD software, so i cant design the parts for fabrication
03:09 PM polprog: let alone experience in mechanical fabrication...
03:10 PM robotustra: It's better to buy cheap chinise parts, and in case they will burn - you always can get the same one. If one of your old printer motor or driver will burn - you'll spend a lot of time to find replacement
03:10 PM polprog: that's right
03:10 PM polprog: maybe i could get some beams and mount some... how do you call those beams which have gear like top and gears "drive" over it
03:11 PM polprog: for x/y movement
03:11 PM Tom_L: rack and pinion
03:11 PM polprog: Tom_L: thanks, that's the thing ;)
03:11 PM robotustra: you can buy cheap frame for laser cutter on ebay and save tonns of your time
03:11 PM Tom_L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUjH14vhLxA
03:11 PM Tom_L: spacex
03:12 PM polprog: yeah, that's a possible way to do it
03:12 PM Tom_L: what are you making?
03:12 PM polprog: Tom_L: heh, that's like real life kerbal space progrm, they must have lots of fun there
03:12 PM polprog: Tom_L: a plotter
03:17 PM polprog: i will definitely want to put encoders for motor feedback
03:22 PM robotustra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeswYL_EhH0
03:26 PM polprog: that's kinda the thing
03:26 PM robotustra: or you can make a plywood one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjAv2u-P8j8
03:27 PM polprog: bleh
03:27 PM robotustra: it's made OK IMHO
03:27 PM polprog: at least it doesnt have those terrible dark edges like most laser cut plywood has
03:28 PM polprog: yeah, it's good
03:45 PM catphish: good day robotics people
03:46 PM robotustra: good
03:48 PM catphish: i'm looking up how to build a hexapod, thought i'd drop in, in case i have any questions, is that what people here do? or is that too much of a toy? :)
03:49 PM robotustra: rue_mohr is doing some hexapod
03:50 PM robotustra: and as soon as I know a couple of other people too
03:50 PM robotustra: so I think they can answer your questions
03:50 PM catphish: cool :)
03:51 PM robotustra: other ppl are also good to answer you
03:52 PM robotustra: so what are you building?
03:53 PM catphish: thanks, i'm not sure yet, just looking at different designs, just a fairly generic hexapod, hoping i can get some good movement speed
03:53 PM deshipu: catphish: have you considered a quadruped?
03:53 PM deshipu: catphish: what's your budget?
03:54 PM catphish: nope, but a quadruped would be cool too, i hadn't considered budget
03:54 PM deshipu: you know, a properly walking hexapod is 18 servos
03:54 PM deshipu: that's not cheap
03:54 PM deshipu: quadruped is a bit better at 12
03:55 PM catphish: yep, the designs i was looking at were 18 servos, does sound expensive :)
03:55 PM catphish: i don't know that much about servos actually, most of my previous experience is with multirotors
03:56 PM catphish: i assume the cost comes down to torque and resolution?
03:57 PM polprog: robotustra: thanks for the laser cutter frame suggestion
03:57 PM polprog: that will definitely save a lot of work
03:57 PM deshipu: catphish: torque mostly
03:57 PM robotustra: polprog, welcome
03:58 PM catphish: you're right, 18 servos will be $$$ :)
03:58 PM deshipu: catphish: unless you go for the smart servos
03:58 PM deshipu: which are expensive of themselves
03:59 PM deshipu: if you have experience, you can build your own servos like rue did
03:59 PM catphish: i'd imagine regular servos will be fine, they always seem accurate, so i imagine the main issue will be knowing how much torque i need
03:59 PM deshipu: what size/weight were you thinking about?
04:00 PM deshipu: I have a desktop quadruped that I optimized for cost
04:01 PM catphish: i was thinking a bit bigger than that properly, like 12" diameter maybe, i'm really not sure yet, just starting to look at designs
04:01 PM * deshipu calculates how large 12" is
04:02 PM deshipu: ok, that's too big for the cheapest SG90 servos
04:05 PM catphish: are there particular generic servos that most peolpe use?
04:05 PM catphish: ah, i see SG90 are very cheap (and small)
04:06 PM catphish: just flicking through the most popular ebay results for "servo" :)
04:06 PM deshipu: yeah, I have a whole series of spider robots using them: http://tote.rtfd.org
04:06 PM deshipu: but they are about half the size you want
04:07 PM catphish: yeah, tiny, i wanted something with a bit more power behind it :)
04:07 PM deshipu: I highly recommend starting with something small, and then doing the big one
04:07 PM deshipu: will save you money in the long run
04:07 PM deshipu: not to mention time
04:08 PM catphish: ultimately i was hoping for something like this: http://www.robotshop.com/media/files/images/lynxmotion-hexapod-ch3rcau-blk-645-large.jpg
04:08 PM catphish: i'll likely have to buy the carbon parts
04:09 PM catphish: don't have a cutter, only a 3d printer
04:09 PM catphish: i'm mostly a software developer, will spend a lot of time writing the software
04:12 PM deshipu: software is the hard party
04:12 PM deshipu: part
04:12 PM deshipu: that tote website has some of the parts documented
04:13 PM deshipu: another thing that I like in my design -- you don't need to 3d print or laser-cut anything, I just use the plastic servo horns that come with the servos
04:13 PM deshipu: you just need screws
04:13 PM catphish: that's cool
04:14 PM catphish: i assume you need some kind of central base plate?
04:15 PM deshipu: a PCB
04:15 PM catphish: i think if i went quadruped it would end up way more expensive because i'd want a powerful dog-like setup
04:15 PM catphish: ah cool
04:15 PM deshipu: that you can order at oshpark
04:15 PM deshipu: catphish: I would recommend going with a cheap and dirty small design like mine first, and once you get more confident, go for the big/strong one
04:16 PM deshipu: the small robot is also much easier to debug, because it won't run away through your garage wall
04:16 PM catphish: lol
04:16 PM deshipu: in the worst case it just falls from your desk, and it's light enough to survive that
04:16 PM catphish: i figured if it was on the floor it wasnt going to do much damage to itself
04:17 PM deshipu: my first quadruped (I started bigger too) literally ripped its own legs off
04:17 PM deshipu: because I had the servos reversed
04:17 PM catphish: oops
04:17 PM catphish: it's tricky though, small doesn't seem so interesting
04:18 PM deshipu: I assure you it's challenging enough
04:18 PM deshipu: if it will be too simple, you will finish it quickly and move on to the bigger one
04:18 PM catphish: i had a similar problem with my first ever multirotor flight, i had the controller Y axis reversed, flew into my own face :(
04:18 PM catphish: that was a painful lesson
04:18 PM deshipu: multirotors are the reverse -- bigger is easier
04:18 PM catphish: more dangerous though :)
04:20 PM deshipu: I assume you have enough experience to deal with that
04:21 PM catphish: i do now, not so much when i built my first one
04:21 PM catphish: https://i.imgur.com/cZvf9Cs.jpg - hacky but effective :)
04:22 PM catphish: later builds were rather neater
04:24 PM catphish: anyway, i'll start looking at options for servos
04:58 PM catphish: deshipu: thanks for the pointers, i suspect i'll get some (cheap and probably crappy) MG996R servos to play with and see where i get to :)
05:01 PM catphish: people seem to think they're mediocre, should be fine to get started playing
05:15 PM deshipu: catphish: they vary greatly depending on which chinese factory has cloned them
05:16 PM catphish: yeah, that's the impression i got, similar story with futaba s3003, way to many clones, lucky dip
05:17 PM catphish: but i think MG996R seems like a reasonable mid range device to start playing with, and i can get 20 of them for not too much monies
05:17 PM catphish: 72 of my english pounds gets me 20 of them
05:45 PM catphish: this is probably what i want to build, might just jump in and try it, if it all goes together ok then i can focus on software http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1Set-Six-3DOF-Legs-Alum-Alloy-Hexapod-Spider-VC-best-Frame-Kit-DIY-for-Arduino/282672075579?epid=1188826809&hash=item41d091933b:g:r7cAAOSwv1RUZbZ-
11:47 PM rue_mohr: armyofevilrobots, what do you think of making a MT3 spindle for your new machine?
11:47 PM rue_mohr: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Best-Price-122mm-MT3-ER16-M12-CNC-Lathe-Collet-Chuck-Tool-Holder-Taper-Tool-For-Drilling/32746596472.html
11:47 PM rue_mohr: mix w/ something like
11:48 PM rue_mohr: :) I had a seller get confused and send me a free ER16 1/4" collette
11:50 PM rue_mohr: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/C16-ER16-100L-Collet-Chuck-Holder-CNC-Milling-Extension-Rod-Straight-Shank/2021341642.html
11:50 PM rue_mohr: beats that I think
11:53 PM Luminax-Work is now known as LuminaxWk