#robotics Logs
May 28 2017
#robotics Calendar
12:11 AM * rue_house grumbles about disconnect/reconnect and bad wifi connections
12:14 AM rue_house: mmm 10pcs tiny13 arrived yesterday :)
12:16 AM rue_house: zhanx, got stuff to make a parts washer today
12:16 AM rue_house: :)
12:16 AM rue_house: I expect to make it the weekend after next
12:17 AM rue_house: or maybe next week?
12:18 AM rue_house: yea, I suppose next week could be an option
12:18 AM rue_house: dont want to forget evenings exist
12:18 AM rue_house: we need to finish the pipe bender to eh?
12:18 AM rue_house: yes, get some 2x4 maybe?
12:18 AM rue_house: next step is the weld tabs on the main bender.... I suppose
12:18 AM rue_house: need a solution to mount he bender to the motor
12:18 AM rue_house: or vise versa
12:19 AM rue_house: bender is heavier than the motor
12:19 AM rue_house: .. you sure?
12:19 AM rue_house: no...
12:19 AM rue_house: scale only goes up to 40kg
12:23 AM rue_house: so we need to be at the faire by 9
12:23 AM rue_house: 2 hours back is 7
12:24 AM rue_house: I dont want to wake up at 7
12:35 AM anonnumberanon: Jak_o_Shadows, try using your phone with 3g as a modem and irc/programming while sitting far from your house at some park or whatever, with laptop with beefy battery, it's quite nice
12:35 AM anonnumberanon: i'm able to go 4 hours with food and drinks without a bathroom break and at that time the battery is down to 5%
12:47 AM rue_house: I have to go to bed early
12:47 AM rue_house: projects I added to my list today
12:47 AM rue_house: - make parts cleaner
12:47 AM rue_house: - convert floodlight to led
12:48 AM rue_house: - fix 2 speakers, if doable
12:48 AM rue_house: - strip down 4 harddrives
12:48 AM rue_house: hmmmmmmm I need some of my projects to finish themselvs
12:49 AM rue_house: 'you can put it togethor but you cant take it apart'.... hmmmmm
12:49 AM rue_house: contraption...
01:02 AM rue_house: http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/MOSFET/images/3-ChaserWithFETs.gif
01:02 AM rue_house: gotta try that
05:05 AM calle__: Eurobot 2017 international qualification rounds (live stream): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaBPmu7AJKI
05:14 AM robopal: they are totaly autonomous these robots?
05:20 AM calle__: yes they are
05:20 AM calle__: and the task is changed every year
10:14 AM nnumerals is now known as SOLOL
06:01 PM anniepoo: copyright notice
06:09 PM Riviera: in case somebody makes an unlicensed copy of you?
06:19 PM theBear: pffft, surely no remotely intelligent being is dumb enough to even consider doing that.... theBear ain't the kinda thing you wanna have to look after... he can't be stopped, even containing him is known to be tricky, and god forbid you're nearby when he gets over-excited, my god, you REALLY don't need that\
06:24 PM z64555: inb4 theBearBot2000
07:13 PM * anniepoo is back from going along on a food run with Kevin's mom and sis. Continuing to draw robot parts to be laser cut
07:21 PM theBear: i don't believe it, not only is kevin in scotland, but he doesn't even visit this entire irc network !
07:21 PM theBear: <grin>
07:49 PM anniepoo: So, we've now printed enough that we felt we should replace the blue tape.
07:49 PM anniepoo: The first print post-change was stuck ok, but was a squat cylinder
07:50 PM anniepoo: Tried a second part, repeat of one that had run successfully previously, and it keeps coming loose
07:50 PM anniepoo: adjusted bed height to 150 microns, then to 203 microns
07:50 PM anniepoo: comes loose on either one
07:51 PM anniepoo: the PLA is peeling up, I suspect it's the brand of blue tape or something
07:51 PM anniepoo: the old tape is whatever came with printer. The bed came with tape on it
07:51 PM theBear: microns ? damn, here i am thinking my new cheap digital calipers are pretty cool with their 2 points of sub mm accuracy, i don't even know how many microns you need fer a mm, but i bet it's a lot more than a few hundred
07:51 PM anniepoo: the new tape is authentic 3M tape
07:51 PM orlock: theBear: .1mmm = 100microns
07:51 PM anniepoo: no, 1000 microns is a millimeter
07:52 PM anniepoo: 0.203 mm
07:52 PM anniepoo: used a thickness gauge I paid $7 or something for
07:52 PM orlock: i just .1mm thick copper tags made for labelling plants
07:52 PM anniepoo: this is the same gauge I set the printer up originally with
07:52 PM orlock: $5 at bunnings or something
07:53 PM orlock: anniepoo: i stopped using blue tape a while ago, i use kapton now, but it does require a heated bed to get "sticky"
07:53 PM anniepoo: ok, I have kapton
07:53 PM orlock: even though PLA doesnt shrink much, i found it does a big with big/flat parts
07:53 PM anniepoo: and it's a heated bed
07:54 PM orlock: but kapton can be a bit trucky to lay flat without wrinkles
07:54 PM anniepoo: 50C reasonable?
07:54 PM orlock: but i'm sure thats the sort of thing you are an old hand at
07:54 PM anniepoo: yes, I think I can get the kapton film on
07:54 PM theBear: oh wow, if mmm are the same as mm's <grin> maybe that's not so amazing, if 1000 is a mm, i can go down to what, 10microns with 2 decimals i spsoe.... they only cheap, but unless you really force em, which ain't the right way to caliper stuff anyway, they seem to hold .01mm accuracy damned well, and after all these years of telling myself i'll find my old $2 shop plastic non-digital calipers, i'm
07:54 PM theBear: pretty pleased with these new ones, very pleased in fact :)
07:54 PM anniepoo: if that's OK with 50 deg C bed, I'll change it to kapton
07:55 PM orlock: 70c reccomended
07:55 PM anniepoo: ok, I'll raise the bed temp
07:55 PM anniepoo: this is with PLA?
07:55 PM orlock: i find it "pops" off better
07:55 PM anniepoo: what's your height at?
07:56 PM theBear: speaking of C's, i gotta go to other room and turn up my bodgy bench chargey setup, cos apparently 100mA is WAY slow for a 18650 lisomething :)
07:56 PM orlock: rather than what can happen with tape, where its a very fine line between "barely sticking" and "the plastic is one with the tape, get the chisel"
07:56 PM anniepoo: you're saying 70C improves removal?
07:57 PM anniepoo: ah - wonder if I've been lucky, cause it's been 'barely sticking' end. Pretty easy to 'pop'
07:57 PM orlock: anniepoo: its a combination of a few things - the temperature helps it sick and theres less forces trying to warp the part
07:57 PM orlock: helps it stick, even
07:57 PM anniepoo: ok, I'll first try raising the bed temp
07:57 PM anniepoo: on the blue tape
07:57 PM orlock: that prevents the corners from trying to lift
07:57 PM anniepoo: on the 'change one thing at a time' principle
07:57 PM orlock: yup
07:57 PM orlock: do you print with a brim?
07:58 PM orlock: usually i can eyeball that, ot peel a bit up and measure it
08:08 PM annieonthe3dprin: so far so good on blue tape at higher temp
08:08 PM annieonthe3dprin: spoke too soon
08:08 PM annieonthe3dprin: peeling
08:10 PM z64555: what's your bed made out of? glass? metal? wood?
08:10 PM theBear: you mean blue tape like 3m or similar fancy-painting-masking tape ? if yer do, it's worth noting that the stuff is only designed to be used for short periods, a few days or a week maybe at most, and after a while longer than that it tends to stick a lot harder/more permanently than it does short term
08:10 PM annieonthe3dprin: metal
08:10 PM theBear: just generally worth noting i mean
08:10 PM annieonthe3dprin: good point
08:10 PM annieonthe3dprin: I just bought printer
08:10 PM annieonthe3dprin: it came with blue tape on bed
08:11 PM annieonthe3dprin: it got chewed up after a couple dozen prints, we replaced it with our own blue tape
08:11 PM annieonthe3dprin: which is probably a lot fresher
08:11 PM theBear: mmm, i dunno what is popular for taping beds in printer world, but only blue tape i ever seen is the modern tech version of masking tape for painting kinda uses
08:11 PM z64555: painter's tape
08:11 PM annieonthe3dprin: now removing that, applying capton
08:12 PM annieonthe3dprin: yes, 3M blue painters tape
08:12 PM annieonthe3dprin: removed. Now applying kapton
08:13 PM theBear: also unless yer spraypainting, you shouldn't need/use masking tape of any kind, not only does it make you lazy with yer technique, but it tends to give a crappier result than just properly cutting in ( fancy painting word fer ya know, painting along an edge with just yer brush and the right technique) like you should
08:15 PM z64555: definitely off topic, but I'm curious what "cutting in" involves
08:15 PM annieonthe3dprin: well, we mostly use it to tape things inside electric guitar kits we sell
08:16 PM annieonthe3dprin: also, best method of using masking - say you want a red ball on green background
08:16 PM orlock: z64555: being carefull around the edges with a little brush
08:16 PM annieonthe3dprin: paint surface green. Let dry well
08:16 PM annieonthe3dprin: mask and cut hole
08:16 PM annieonthe3dprin: paint *green* over hole.
08:16 PM annieonthe3dprin: this seals the masking
08:16 PM annieonthe3dprin: let dry, paint red over hole
08:16 PM annieonthe3dprin: let dry, remove mask
08:16 PM orlock: Ahh!
08:17 PM orlock: the step of painting green over the hole stops the red bleeding under the tape?
08:17 PM annieonthe3dprin: yes
08:17 PM orlock: i painted one wall in my daughters room pink, and the edges are a bit rough becaue ofthat i guess
08:17 PM orlock: (also, i;d just spend 48 hours moving everything we owned)
08:19 PM orlock: i have InfluxDB and Grafana working at home, yay
08:19 PM orlock: and an internal, no-auth-needed minecraft server
08:19 PM annieonthe3dprin: re sticking down kapton
08:19 PM theBear: z64555, rough idea is you kinda lay the bristles "flat" on yer surface (the bit that already has the paint and you don't have to worry about, then bend the brush handle back and twist slightly forming a kinda pointed "tip" to the bristles, of course you always wipe yer brush when you dip it for fresh paint, cos you don't want paint up in the handle end of yer bristles, it drips and is hard to wash
08:19 PM theBear: out, and over time if it dries deep in there it snaps/destroys the bristles, after not much practice you kinda get a feel for the right amount of paint to get loaded in the brush before you do the bendy thing, and you get between nothing and a teeny drop of paint on the leading edge of yer pointy tip, and just kinda move slowly at an angle towards the edge where you gotta stop/make a line, and
08:19 PM theBear: remember the basic building concept of "doesn't have to be PERFECT, just pretty close and nothing out of place that'll draw the eye" and pretty soon yer painting perfect edges and barely slowing down to do it
08:19 PM annieonthe3dprin: I'm getting bubbles. I'm addressing using my usual technique for bubbles in vinyl etc.
08:19 PM annieonthe3dprin: which is to slit them with a sharp knife.
08:20 PM annieonthe3dprin: then they rub down
08:20 PM orlock: annieonthe3dprin: i was given a whole method on how to do it involving slightly soapy watre and "floating" it into place and using a squeegee, etc
08:20 PM orlock: but with a bit of practice i can just roll it straight on and flatten with a finger
08:20 PM annieonthe3dprin: yes, that's a good way
08:21 PM orlock: annieonthe3dprin: Do you print with a brim?
08:22 PM theBear: hehe, or you wear a whole hat ? :)
08:22 PM orlock: i find that the brim is a good indicator for how level your bed is, and how your Z height is
08:22 PM theBear: what you painting/what kinda paint and how you applying re: bubbles ? i'm only real experienced with house kinda paints, but i might have a tip
08:24 PM theBear: also the bubbles appear as you apply or as/after drying ? if they form while it drying it'll be something like moisture/foreign-crap under the paint, or sometimes leeching out of whatever you painting
08:24 PM theBear: that one applies to pretty much any kind of paint/conformal-ey coating
08:30 PM annieonthe3dprin: ok
08:30 PM annieonthe3dprin: yes, I print with a brim
08:31 PM annieonthe3dprin: bear - these are bubbles in the tape coating of a 3D printer bed
08:31 PM annieonthe3dprin: I borrowed technique from bubbles in adhesive vinyl like used for signs
08:32 PM annieonthe3dprin: So, application technique - cut off strip of kapton slightly longer than bed
08:32 PM annieonthe3dprin: get as straight as possible, stick down lightly
08:32 PM annieonthe3dprin: burnish down 1" on end
08:32 PM annieonthe3dprin: peel up remainder.
08:33 PM annieonthe3dprin: push down remainder using the barrel of a sharpie as a squeegee type tool
08:33 PM annieonthe3dprin: that eliminated 90% of bubbles
08:33 PM annieonthe3dprin: remainder dealt with by slitting and burnishing
08:34 PM theBear: annieonthe3dprin, oh i get yer, yeah, sounds like yer already on top of it
08:34 PM annieonthe3dprin: printing kapton 70C 203 micron bed height
08:34 PM orlock: annieonthe3dprin: be interesting to see what your brim measures as
08:34 PM theBear: maybe a little squirt of yer favourite iso/fancy solvent would make the squeeging bit go better, mayeb it'll make a huge mess :)
08:35 PM annieonthe3dprin: speaking of mess - first print that came loose left pla goo on ouside of extruder
08:35 PM annieonthe3dprin: and I'm wondering if it's picking up more strings, etc
08:36 PM annieonthe3dprin: I wish the printer firmware had a 'lift head' command
08:37 PM theBear: it's like a shammy, it's like a towel, it's like ashamwow !
08:39 PM annieonthe3dprin: the brim looks 'melted' and irregular
08:39 PM theBear: hmm, you might say you have a string theory about the situation <grin>
08:40 PM annieonthe3dprin: the individual 'threads' of the brim aren't welded
08:40 PM orlock: sounds too high, or not enough extrusion
08:40 PM orlock: Z too high, that is
08:41 PM annieonthe3dprin: bed height too high?
08:41 PM orlock: well, the head too high off the bed
08:41 PM annieonthe3dprin: right
08:41 PM annieonthe3dprin: ok, will reduce bed height next attemp
08:41 PM orlock: lower it by .05 and try again?
08:42 PM annieonthe3dprin: at .203, will lower to .15 mm
08:42 PM theBear: maaan, where do the hours go ? this week it just seems like i skipped a few everytime i look at the clock
08:42 PM orlock: what sliver do you use?
08:42 PM orlock: slicer
08:42 PM annieonthe3dprin: cura
08:42 PM annieonthe3dprin: came with machine
08:42 PM annieonthe3dprin: all this was working til I changed tape
08:43 PM annieonthe3dprin: too low an extrusion rate would ruin whole print
08:44 PM annieonthe3dprin: this one is holding to bed, so I'm going to let it run til it fails or completes
08:44 PM annieonthe3dprin: if it's OK looking except at brim, extrusion rate is OK
08:50 PM annieonthe3dprin: sorting parts in electronics lab while watching it print
08:51 PM annieonthe3dprin: have some small, probably tantalum caps - orange blob, radial leads
08:51 PM annieonthe3dprin: marked V224
08:51 PM annieonthe3dprin: any idea what the marking means?
08:54 PM theBear: 224 will be like resistor values, i usually ask g-image search machine fer a table to remind me cos i'm terrible at cap letter vs multiplier remembering, V maybe a temp or tolerance or voltage spec
08:55 PM theBear: also i hate tants... at some time, maybe 10 years, maybe 25, after manuf. they got a habit of going dead short for no good reason, and surprisingly similar timing in something with say, 10 or 20 of the same value/cap in it... you'll replace one or two dead ones, then during yer 15 or 20minutes of sitting on the other bench for a bit of a test another one or two will die, etc etc, until you replaced em
08:55 PM theBear: all
08:56 PM theBear: and these days there are alternative caps that can match or better em in pretty much all specs and physical size, as opposed to long ago when from memory they were by far the highest value for the size in various situations
08:56 PM veverak: minecraft is pure evil
08:57 PM theBear: also remember they EXPLODE instantly if you reverse volt em, even on 5v they got effing BANG the moment you hit the pwoer switch, silly things
08:57 PM SpeedEvil: They don't always explode.
08:57 PM SpeedEvil: :(
08:58 PM annieonthe3dprin: yes, there was 'capacitor plague' - they found the cause and eliminated it
08:58 PM SpeedEvil: capacitor plague was not related to tantalum
08:59 PM annieonthe3dprin: oh, good to know
09:01 PM annieonthe3dprin: ok, my issues are def just the bed, because the print itself is happy
09:01 PM theBear: cap plague is electros, not tants
09:01 PM annieonthe3dprin: ah, good to know
09:01 PM theBear: and i dunno if i'd say eliminated, but modern way-smaller-than-they-used-to-be-for-that-value electros certainly don't ALL die super-quick like they did for a few yearss there
09:01 PM annieonthe3dprin: any idea what last date before they fixed it was?
09:06 PM theBear: well that's the thing,noone can really agree what the cause was, some claim corporate espionage/spying gone wrong, others just that it took a while for designers and cap specs in general to change to things more appropriate for modern switchey things (HUGE pulse/short term currents, with not much inbetween, vs fairly smooth and not ridiculous kinda currents in more traditional circuits, look on some
09:06 PM theBear: datasheets at the ripple current and esr values on modern fancy and/or low esr caps vs maybe some big 4700uF or 10,000uF 50-80v caps that'd be used in maybe a big linear psu or audio amplifier, notice the HUGE differences
09:06 PM theBear: even for the same uF and voltage, those less obvious specs can be VERY different
09:13 PM Tom_L: try kid's glue sticks instead of blue tape
09:14 PM annieonthe3dprin: dialing in kapton at the moment
09:14 PM theBear: i dont gotta do what you say ! you're not my girlfriend ! <grin>
09:14 PM annieonthe3dprin: it's making working prints
09:16 PM annieonthe3dprin: I'm going to try the next print with a lower bed temp
09:22 PM Tom_L: don't then
09:26 PM annieonthe3dprin: 8cP have put back up the hangers for the parts bins, post install of cnc lathe
09:27 PM annieonthe3dprin: 8cD
09:35 PM annieonthe3dprin: pulled loose halfway up print
09:41 PM anniepoo: https://www.instagram.com/p/BUqLR6qDA3o/?taken-by=anneogborn
09:41 PM anniepoo: and previous two photos
09:42 PM anniepoo: before the tape change, we had nice clean brims
09:43 PM anniepoo: brim is distinctly bent, which is new behavior
10:30 PM annieonthe3dprin: now printing a little robot - short print, and 'easy'. peeled brim up, it was floppy -
10:31 PM annieonthe3dprin: turning temp to 60 and trying again
11:12 PM rue_house: a thingverse bot?
11:13 PM rue_house: annieonthe3dprin, I cant tell anything from that image...
11:13 PM zhanx: neither could i
11:14 PM rue_house: hmm, my room is 24c
11:14 PM zhanx: looks like the edges are lifting a small amount
11:14 PM rue_house: thats prolly why it feels hot
11:15 PM zhanx: maybe
11:15 PM rue_house: Jak_o_Shadows, where you at with servo force sense and servo control
11:15 PM rue_house: position
11:15 PM rue_house: what?
11:15 PM rue_house: Jak_o_Shadows, where you at with servo force sense and position control
11:15 PM rue_house: oh
11:16 PM rue_house: 2N5458 is a jfet, who knew?
11:23 PM annieonthe3dprin: sorry, yah, crummy image
11:23 PM annieonthe3dprin: I turned the temp down to 60, it's much happier
11:24 PM annieonthe3dprin: let me see if I can get better pix
11:27 PM annieonthe3dprin: https://www.instagram.com/anneogborn/
11:27 PM annieonthe3dprin: last two images
11:27 PM annieonthe3dprin: much better light
11:28 PM annieonthe3dprin: turned down to 60, used 'raft', getting much happier looking print
11:29 PM rue_house: those prints dont look right stuff
11:29 PM rue_house: still
11:29 PM rue_house: another index error...
11:30 PM rue_house: my mental indexes are breaking down
11:30 PM annieonthe3dprin: no, those are more pix of same print, brim at 70c, kapton
11:31 PM rue_house: I keep having null pointer issues
11:32 PM rue_house: the indexing for the word just isn't there
11:32 PM rue_house: I know what I want to say, I know the definition of the word
11:32 PM rue_house: my thought -> lauguage converter is failing
11:35 PM rue_house: Jak_o_Shadows, you gonna wake up anytime soon?...
11:36 PM orlock: annieonthe3dprin: If you try to measure the brim, how high does it seem?
11:41 PM rue_house: anniepoo, !!! it works
11:41 PM rue_house: it works!, it works!
11:41 PM rue_house: it works!, it works!
11:41 PM rue_house: it works!, it works!
11:41 PM rue_house: it works!, it works!
11:41 PM rue_house: it works!, it works!
11:41 PM rue_house: it works!
11:41 PM rue_house: it works!
11:41 PM rue_house: it works!
11:41 PM rue_house: it works!
11:42 PM rue_house: with just make; make install I built and installed the flashing led software on the stm32!
11:42 PM rue_house: hahaha
11:42 PM rue_house: now all I have to do it get the support library files out of the project directory!
11:45 PM anniepoo: nice!
11:45 PM anniepoo: 8cD
11:45 PM anniepoo: whooot!
11:45 PM anniepoo: my experience is that getting an LED to flash is about 80% of getting up to speed with embedded stuff
11:45 PM anniepoo: Whooo
11:45 PM * rue_house is so happy he does and pays his bills
11:45 PM anniepoo: LOL
11:46 PM anniepoo: rue - write up how you did it!
11:46 PM rue_house: well, gonna be hard to program microcontrollers if I got no power
11:46 PM anniepoo: ok, pay bills, then write up
11:47 PM rue_house: my electricity bill was like a perfect sine wave one year
11:48 PM annieonthe3dprin: 8cD printer seems happy
11:48 PM rue_house: anniepoo, its been a long windy road with landmines
11:49 PM rue_house: creating the makefile has been most of the challange
11:49 PM rue_house: not sure all the software packages I had to install
11:49 PM anniepoo: make or gmake?
11:50 PM rue_house: pff, make
11:50 PM rue_house: I dont like systems that configure systems compile systems that configure systems to do the compiling
11:51 PM anniepoo: me either
11:51 PM anniepoo: 'short tech stack' is something people hear me say all the time