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[01:27:26] <rue_shop3> Tom_itx, mach3 seems to be the definition of control for cnc machines ... ?
[01:27:40] <rue_shop3> everywhere, everything is mach3
[06:07:48] <Tom_itx> rue_shop3, yeah it's the standing joke in #linuxcnc. doesn't do nearly what lcnc can do
[06:08:03] <Tom_itx> it crashes frequently too
[11:42:18] <SorcererX> what do you people usually use if you want some sort of watchdog circuit for a robot?
[11:43:45] <Tom_itx> enable wdt on an avr or other control chip
[11:47:59] <SorcererX> you'd think something even simpler should be enough, like a capacitor charging and a resistor or something
[12:46:48] <justanotheruser> Is this a robust design?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONPkB-TmphE
[12:46:55] <justanotheruser> for a hand
[12:47:26] <justanotheruser> I mean the concept in general, using chains, not their design that involves poorly aligned fingers on a flimsy metal plate
[12:48:55] <robopal> looks ok to me
[12:49:30] <justanotheruser> do human fingers have 2 DoF
[12:49:30] <robopal> probably not so many links
[12:50:07] <justanotheruser> I can't really get individual knuckles to move and I think human hands have a similar design with the fingers being controlled in the wrist
[12:50:11] <SpeedEvil> justanotheruser:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jennifer_Wolf2/publication/7330846/figure/fig3/AS:277725316173838@1443226283678/Figure-3-A-Normal-tendon-mechanics-with-intact-pulley-system-B-Bowstringing-The.png
[12:50:52] <justanotheruser> SpeedEvil: ?
[12:50:59] <SpeedEvil> A human finger
[12:51:07] <justanotheruser> yes
[12:51:09] <SpeedEvil> showing the normal architecture on the left
[12:51:19] <SpeedEvil> basically the same
[12:51:22] <justanotheruser> when are the a1 a2 pulleys missing
[12:51:42] <SpeedEvil> If you injure them and they snap
[12:51:45] <justanotheruser> oh
[12:51:50] <SpeedEvil> or due to congenital malformations I imagine
[12:52:07] <SpeedEvil> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Carpal-Tunnel.svg - is my favourite medical/robotic link
[12:52:20] <SpeedEvil> this is a slice through the wrist showing the carpal tunnel.
[12:52:26] <SpeedEvil> And all the activating tendons
[12:52:43] <justanotheruser> I don't know what any of these are lol
[12:53:17] <justanotheruser> I'm looking for 5 tendons but I don't see them
[12:53:19] <SpeedEvil> The white bits are all tendons. The pink bits are bones. Green is the 'meat' of teh wrist
[12:53:32] <SpeedEvil> That's because there aren't five tendons alone in the finger
[12:54:17] <SpeedEvil> err - fingers
[12:54:34] <justanotheruser> theres 2 per finger?
[12:54:36] <SpeedEvil> Broadly - each tendon is a degree of freedom for the hand
[12:54:36] <SpeedEvil> yes
[12:54:44] <SpeedEvil> 2 axes
[12:55:10] <justanotheruser> when I do the spock thing, that's a tendon in my wrist doing the work? not a muscle in my hand?
[12:55:56] <SpeedEvil> EAch finger has at least 2 major degrees of freedom - you can move the finger up and down with some force, and curl and uncurl it. This is mostly all powered by muscles up the arm.
[12:56:09] <justanotheruser> oh I forgot about moving up and down
[12:56:12] <justanotheruser> yes, there are 3 DoF
[12:56:20] <justanotheruser> left-right, up-down, curl-uncurl
[12:56:29] <justanotheruser> or am I missing somethnig
[12:57:05] <SpeedEvil> There is mixing - you don't quite get 12DOF for 4 fingers
[12:57:22] <SpeedEvil> And the power of various DOF varies dramatically
[12:58:08] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wrist_and_hand_deeper_palmar_dissection-en.svg reasonbably shows the muscles in the hand
[12:58:27] <SpeedEvil> Anything with significant power is coming from the arm, not the hand
[13:07:05] <justanotheruser> SpeedEvil: the left-right movement comes from muscles in the hand?
[15:37:28] <z64555> hands are under-actuated
[15:39:11] <z64555> hm, 3 DoF per finger seems about right, excluding the thumb
[15:39:42] <z64555> well, no thumb also has 3DoF
[16:51:28] <Dubascudes> hello all
[17:00:42] <Dubascudes> hey
[17:05:10] <Anniepoo__> .
[17:06:37] <Tom_itx> o
[17:06:41] <Tom_itx> O
[17:06:55] <Anniepoo__> ( )
[17:07:02] <Dubascudes> owo
[17:07:22] <Anniepoo__> OVO
[17:07:45] <Dubascudes> 0w0 whats this
[17:08:11] <justanotheruser> can I paste my robot design here? It's a series of ascii art drawings comprising 1000 lines
[17:08:19] <Tom_itx> no
[17:08:25] <Anniepoo__> pastebin
[17:08:35] <Tom_itx> i would have to kick you for that
[17:09:20] <Dubascudes> rip
[17:11:34] <justanotheruser> I don't want to host it, I just want you guys to see it and not log it
[17:12:01] <Dubascudes> whats the robot for
[17:12:08] <Tom_itx> not 1k lines
[17:12:20] <Dubascudes> ^^
[17:12:38] <Tom_itx> not even 15
[17:12:57] <Dubascudes> is this chat for industry level robotics, university level, or high school level
[17:13:26] <justanotheruser> _/-_
[17:13:55] <Dubascudes> tf
[17:14:35] <Tom_itx> Dubascudes yes
[17:14:38] <justanotheruser> its a compressed version of the ascii art I was conna post
[17:14:55] <Dubascudes> cool
[17:14:58] <Tom_itx> not so much industrial
[17:15:11] <Dubascudes> are you guys familiar with FRC?
[17:15:21] <Tom_itx> that might be reserved for #linuxcnc
[17:15:44] <Tom_itx> or something else
[17:15:51] <Anniepoo__> pretty much any level
[17:16:14] <Dubascudes> but FRC is not often discussed on this channel
[17:16:40] <Dubascudes> i guess that was a question there should have been a question mark
[17:17:27] <Tom_itx> #seattlerobotics may know more about it
[17:21:53] <Anniepoo__> whats FRC
[17:22:04] <Tom_itx> first robotic competetion
[17:22:04] <Dubascudes> First Robotics Competition
[17:22:23] <Dubascudes> it's one of the biggest ones for high school students
[17:22:39] <Anniepoo__> ah
[17:23:00] <Tom_itx> $$
[17:34:51] <SorcererX> robot competitions are fun
[17:35:30] <SpeedEvil> Some are less fun than others.
[17:35:33] <SpeedEvil> https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/12/11/2215225/robots-are-already-replacing-fast-food-workers
[17:36:08] <Dubascudes> I've seen a mcdonalds that has those order kiosks
[17:36:12] <Dubascudes> very convenient
[17:36:32] <SorcererX> order kiosks are rather common here at various fast food chains
[17:36:58] <Dubascudes> i've only ever seen it at this one location in person, i see it often online tho
[17:37:02] <Anniepoo__> oh, we made one of those in a hackathon
[17:37:36] <SorcererX> I've seen them many places, then again, fast food workers earn way more here than in the US for instance
[17:37:48] <SorcererX> so they probably have far more incentive to use them
[17:37:53] <Anniepoo__> robot server
[17:38:01] <SpeedEvil> Wage is somewhat of a poor argument in many cases.
[17:38:07] <Dubascudes> whats the minimum wage 'here'
[17:38:16] <SorcererX> there is none
[17:38:43] <Dubascudes> then why do they earn more
[17:38:44] <SpeedEvil> Even at quite a low wage, times 365*8*5 (if you expect to be in buisness for 5 years) - the capital cost can get quite large and be a win
[17:39:05] <SorcererX> Dubascudes: unions, society in general I guess
[17:39:08] <SpeedEvil> Plus of course, employee taxes
[17:39:45] <Dubascudes> SpeedEvil they very likely dont work 365 days out of the year
[17:40:07] <SpeedEvil> I noted in a discussion about foxcon bringing '50000 jobs' to the USA in new factories that these are likely at best construction jobs.
[17:40:26] <Dubascudes> we need more of those
[17:40:36] <Dubascudes> construction and manufacturing
[17:40:49] <SpeedEvil> If you've got 100 workers doing things in three shifts, on minimum wage, then spending $5M to design a robot solution, and $5m to build out 100 stations for it is a bargain
[17:41:09] <SpeedEvil> And you've got a near-lights-out factory.
[17:41:36] <SpeedEvil> May you need several people to maintain the robots - sure.
[17:41:45] <Dubascudes> robots can't call in sick
[17:41:50] <Tom_itx> wages go to pay the electric bill
[17:42:15] <Dubascudes> a kiosk is not gonna consume $8 an hour
[17:42:16] <deshipu> Dubascudes: sure they can, when they break down or get worn out
[17:42:52] <Dubascudes> deshipu: i suppose thats true but that can't happen that often
[17:43:00] <SorcererX> Dubascudes: starting wage for someone 20+ at McDonalds is $18 + more for weekends, overtime, evenings etc
[17:43:13] <deshipu> Dubascudes: also, kiosks don't really do the job
[17:43:20] <deshipu> Dubascudes: they just make the customer do the job
[17:43:27] <deshipu> which doesn't work with many customers
[17:43:52] <SpeedEvil> Nobody cares about the food prep people though.
[17:43:57] <SpeedEvil> Customer side - maybe
[17:44:04] <deshipu> and you still need staff for cleaning
[17:44:13] <Dubascudes> deshipu: i'd say they do, as a customer i'd rather tell a machine my order and have it get it right, than tell a human who can barely speak english my order and have them mess it up
[17:44:21] <SpeedEvil> deshipu: you really don't. If properly designed.
[17:44:34] <deshipu> SpeedEvil: regulations
[17:44:37] <SorcererX> I like the order kiosks as well
[17:44:44] <deshipu> Dubascudes: that's you
[17:44:45] <SpeedEvil> Voice recognition - the good stuff - is getting really decent.
[17:44:47] <Dubascudes> SoccerX: nobody in my town makes 18 an hour at a mcdonalds, as a cashier or cook that is
[17:44:59] <deshipu> Dubascudes: elderly people or less tech-savvy people don't like them
[17:45:07] <Tom_itx> maybe in Dubai
[17:45:20] <SorcererX> Dubascudes: that's the nationwide starting wage here at McDs.
[17:45:35] <deshipu> SpeedEvil: the real problem is: who is going to be responsible for mistakes?
[17:45:43] <SpeedEvil> deshipu: mistakes?
[17:45:49] <Dubascudes> there will be no mistakes
[17:46:02] <deshipu> of course, it will be perfect
[17:46:04] <Dubascudes> the only mistakes come if the cook gets it wrong
[17:46:14] <deshipu> or the machine
[17:46:21] <SpeedEvil> If you mean poor quality food - they have 30% of free money now to refund the order
[17:46:23] <deshipu> or the customer clicks the wrong thing
[17:46:25] <Dubascudes> if the cook doesnt listen to the robot then the cook needs to be fired
[17:46:39] <Dubascudes> you review your order before paying
[17:46:54] <Anniepoo__> A&W had auto order takers years ago. they faded out.
[17:46:56] <deshipu> see, doing the machine's job again
[17:47:19] <Dubascudes> no,if you click the wrong thing thats human error
[17:47:40] <deshipu> the best user interface ever invented is a living human willing to help you
[17:47:43] <Dubascudes> thats like telling someone you want a burger and getting upset that you didn't get your nuggets
[17:47:57] <SorcererX> I find humans are way more prone to error
[17:48:01] <SorcererX> especially when under stress
[17:48:03] <Tom_itx> the human can entice you to return
[17:48:15] <Dubascudes> its fast food
[17:48:17] <Anniepoo__> gapping on name but silicon valley has a chain with electronic ordering
[17:48:27] <Tom_itx> it's still a sale
[17:48:28] <deshipu> there used to be elevator operators in elevators
[17:48:39] <Tom_itx> you screw me over, i'll go somewhere else
[17:48:45] <deshipu> you just told them where you wanted to go or who you wanted to visit, and they would take you to the right floor
[17:48:54] <Dubascudes> would you say we're doing the elevators job for it
[17:48:55] <SpeedEvil> Tom_itx: the robot can also entice you to return.
[17:49:05] <deshipu> today we have become the elevator operators ourselves, doing their job, but for free
[17:49:05] <Anniepoo__> even in silicon valley most people go to the human, only use the kiosk wheen really busy
[17:49:24] <deshipu> we can't ask the elevator for directions
[17:49:35] <Dubascudes> ill brb
[17:49:59] <Anniepoo__> we can't feel superior to the elevator operator (who was often black - I'm nearly 60 and remember this stuff)
[17:50:29] <Anniepoo__> there was an operator because one was actually needed. The motor controller was pretty manual, just a rheostat or something
[17:50:30] <deshipu> Anniepoo__: depends on the country
[17:50:51] <Anniepoo__> yes, depends on country. I'm in the US, grew up right on the mason dixon line in Kansas
[17:50:52] <deshipu> Anniepoo__: the thing is, he was doing more than just opeating the motor
[17:51:04] <Anniepoo__> yes he (or she) was
[17:51:28] <Anniepoo__> I once drove a cab. About 3% of that job is 'driving'
[17:51:53] <deshipu> same with a barman job
[17:52:00] <Anniepoo__> yes
[17:52:00] <deshipu> or any other service job
[17:52:06] <Tom_itx> http://i.azcentral.com/i/6/b/2/L169_CIFRc90f36e4b3cd28573ea8f85551d912b6.jpg
[17:52:26] <deshipu> most of the time when they automate something, they just shift the load on the customer
[17:52:32] <Anniepoo__> yes
[17:52:52] <Anniepoo__> gas pumping is classic example
[17:53:01] <Anniepoo__> they 'automated' it without changing the machinery
[17:53:18] <Anniepoo__> they just changed the law, and customers started doing it themselves
[17:53:20] <Tom_itx> pay more for less
[17:53:50] <Anniepoo__> I now live in Oregon, where you still can't pump your own gas.
[17:54:16] <Tom_itx> some places you wouldn't want to...
[17:54:35] <Anniepoo__> and interestingly it's OBVIOUSLY not a safety issue. Because it's OK to pump your own gas in eastern oregon from 6pm to 6am...
[17:54:50] <Anniepoo__> (not sure if that's statewide)
[17:55:02] <z64555> labor union, perhaps
[17:55:06] <Anniepoo__> no
[17:55:32] <Anniepoo__> its' an attempt to provide low income jobs by the legislature
[17:56:17] <Anniepoo__> works - somebody makes 10/hr or something pumping my gas at Chevron.
[17:56:47] <Anniepoo__> some industries are seen that way - taxicabs are regulated with same idea in mind
[17:57:05] <z64555> They gotta be doing other things than just pumping gas, tho
[17:57:19] <SorcererX> didn't the original pumps actually make the gas tank flow over unless you were careful?
[17:57:41] <z64555> they where hand-pumped
[17:57:48] <Anniepoo__> yes, my cars last longer cause I'm and old lad and don't like to check oil etc.
[17:58:03] <Anniepoo__> but here the attendant does it
[17:58:42] <SorcererX> here there are many gas stations that do not have people at all, it's just the gas pumps, no building where they sell stuff
[17:58:55] <SorcererX> card only
[17:59:21] <z64555> Kinda the same here, but there's at least one person on duty
[17:59:33] <Anniepoo__> if people really wanted to end the flow of illegal immigrants into this country, they'd invest in companies to make automated agricultural harvesting machinery
[18:00:04] <z64555> then you'd have a bunch of wealthy farmers whining
[18:00:06] <z64555> LOUDLY
[18:00:45] <z64555> actually
[18:00:53] <Anniepoo__> lets not get into politics, i apologize for starting that
[18:01:14] <z64555> There's several tractors/harvesters that can be programmed to harvest a field using GPS coordinates
[18:01:17] <SpeedEvil> Anniepoo__: automation of farming is happening in a big way
[18:01:29] <SpeedEvil> massive amounts of work going into that at all levels.
[18:01:45] <z64555> so the operator is free to take a nap or barter over the phone as to how much money they want to gouge out of their seller
[18:01:50] <Anniepoo__> Yes, most farms around here hardly have any horses at all, it's all tractors now!
[18:02:19] <Anniepoo__> and I'll again urge folks to stay off politics.
[18:02:39] <SpeedEvil> This is not US only, it's global, and for the same reasons.
[18:03:21] <SorcererX> we have a bunch of tiny farms surviving on subsidies
[18:03:32] <z64555> There's still reasons to have one human operator in those things, though
[18:03:38] <z64555> safety and blaming
[18:03:38] <Anniepoo__> oh, sure
[18:04:13] <Anniepoo__> well, and stuff like 'we ran over a stick' - like a roomba, there's a wide gray area between manual and autonomous
[18:04:39] <z64555> well, "we ran over a stick" vs. "we ran over the neighbor's boy"
[18:04:47] <Anniepoo__> yes, that too
[18:04:52] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za2dsB0qrMg - automated lamb boning system. Take the lamb carcass, CT-scan it (yes, like medical), dissasemble carcasses using completely automated line.
[18:04:58] <z64555> "yeild's going to be a bit more immature than usual"
[18:05:19] <Anniepoo__> doesn't make economic sense to totally automate a train, because who the heck's going to let a train go with nobody to stop it in emergency?
[18:05:59] <z64555> you can automate the train switchyard, though
[18:06:24] <Anniepoo__> and they are, the big ones
[18:06:26] <z64555> have a traffic control tower of sorts that oversees the varies tugs
[18:06:39] <z64555> *various
[18:06:43] <Anniepoo__> they have a hill, there's one engine that shoves cars over the hill
[18:06:55] <Anniepoo__> they roll down, and are sorted with switches into various tracks
[18:06:59] <Anniepoo__> 'hump yard'
[18:07:10] <Anniepoo__> been doing that since the 40's
[18:07:43] <Anniepoo__> cars have RFID on them. They used to have bar codes, but graffiti messed them up
[18:09:34] <Anniepoo__> automated brakes built into rails slow the cars so they roll into previous car at the right speed
[18:10:13] <z64555> neat
[18:10:30] <Anniepoo__> "hump yard" - I'm sure there's lots of videos on youtbe
[18:10:40] <z64555> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_yard#Hump_yard
[18:11:49] <z64555> we have a smallish flat yard around here, somewhere
[18:12:52] <z64555> hardly used anymore though. think the chemical plants switched to using more trucks than trains
[18:13:11] <Anniepoo__> trains are getting more efficient
[18:13:13] <z64555> or otherwise they built a yard closer to the refineries
[18:14:55] <Anniepoo__> I live near a major yard for the Union Pacific. Lots of stuff moves by train. I'm amazed how much comes through
[19:37:08] <justanotheruser> should I expect flexible shaft couplings to have significant backlash?
https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-shaft-couplings/=15ffu0u
[19:40:05] <Snert> gears have backlash.
[19:40:44] <justanotheruser> ?
[19:40:47] <Snert> flexible couplers dampen vibrations and correct misalignments.
[19:41:04] <justanotheruser> should I expect shaft couplings that have replacable centers to have backlash?
[19:41:39] <rue_shop3> you dont want my answer, right?
[19:41:52] <justanotheruser> I'll allow it
[19:41:54] <orlock> gday
[19:42:09] <orlock> http://somepicturesof.space/Tarantula.png
[19:44:38] <rue_shop3> where do .space domains come from!? ITA digging for more money with root domains?
[19:44:54] <justanotheruser> ok
[19:46:28] <rue_shop3> justanotheruser, with all the other bending and sheering and, now twisting you got going on, no, any spring in a shaft coupler will be negible
[19:49:24] <orlock> https://icannwiki.com/.space
[19:50:37] <Snert> orlock: you take that pic of tarantula?
[20:06:50] <Jak_o_Shadows> I can't find a TLD that makes up my name unfortunately
[20:06:53] <Jak_o_Shadows> It's very sad
[20:18:44] <SpeedEvil> err - western samoa
[20:19:05] <SpeedEvil> (.ws)
[20:37:28] <RifRaf> rue_house: hello
[20:40:33] <rue_shop3> long time stranger
[20:40:46] <rue_shop3> you use mach3?
[20:42:56] <RifRaf> need to make a giant line following machine using fibre optic sensors maybe, what would you use?
[20:43:13] <RifRaf> hi btw, this irc client seems to be a bit unsstable
[21:12:51] <rue_shop3> k
[21:13:04] <rue_shop3> giant but with small sensors?
[21:19:40] <Tom_itx> did you finish the pendant this morning?
[21:39:10] <rue_shop3> it just finished screwing up the top shell
[21:39:18] <rue_shop3> and I rotated it wrong anyhow
[21:39:59] <Tom_itx> cad package i posted for you
[21:42:08] <Tom_itx> figured out why i was having trouble with the old server
[21:42:29] <Tom_itx> i forgot to change the php setting in the apache config
[22:09:44] <justanotheruser> sigh
[22:09:53] <justanotheruser> rue_shop3: please remind me of all the accounts you have
[22:40:56] <rue_shop3> I'll help you on that later, I'm busy
