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[00:00:40] <anonnumberanon> for an HV programmer just put a high voltage on top of a switch at each pin of the regular microcontroller and there
[00:00:58] <anonnumberanon> and stuff..
[00:05:30] <rue_bed> jtag ice
[00:05:46] <rue_bed> I went to a seminar in 2004, it was a free door thing
[00:06:22] <rue_bed> its rs232
[00:07:59] <rue_bed> oh god, I just realized something
[00:08:02] <rue_bed> its jtag
[00:08:06] <rue_bed> ughkgh
[00:12:52] * Casper wonders how to bend 1/4x1" steel bar...
[00:13:19] <Casper> I don't have oxy/ace torch...
[00:14:06] <z64555> hm? dragon mentioned?
[00:14:41] <rue_bed> no its a jtag ice
[00:14:45] <rue_bed> I remembered wrong
[00:14:56] <rue_bed> do you think I can get a dollar for it on ebay?
[00:14:57] <z64555> i have no idea what that menas
[00:15:01] <z64555> *means
[00:15:03] <rue_bed> ship form canada, so thats like 25
[00:15:26] <rue_bed> Casper, only 1/4" thick?
[00:15:46] <z64555> in-circuit emulator? huh.
[00:15:57] <rue_bed> but its jtag
[00:16:08] <z64555> :[
[00:16:18] <rue_bed> its alwaus a good idea to turn jtag off on avrs so it dosn't screw things up
[00:17:27] <Casper> rue_bed:
http://www.wcwelding.com/images/plant-stand-and-pirates-chest-21614835.jpg wanna make that, you see the bars from the pipe? I'm guessing 1/4" thick and 1" wide, while the remainding appear to be 1/8 and 3/4
[00:18:45] <Casper> unfortunatelly, no better pic is available it seems<
[00:26:49] <anonnumberanon> yeah apparently jtag hits the ADC channels on atmega328p
[00:27:01] <anonnumberanon> if the mode is turned on
[00:27:20] <Casper> on most they put jtag on the adc.. which I find it to be a bad idea...
[00:27:25] <anonnumberanon> most UART problems are timing problems
[00:55:39] <Casper> rue_bed: any idea how to bend the 1/4x1" ? tig heat up and bend? :D
[01:27:53] <z64[droid]> Doot
[04:29:20] <Snert> Deet
[09:14:42] <rue_house> pipe is usually bend cold
[09:14:46] <rue_house> around a form
[09:36:27] <[VEGETA]> If I designed a robot body\frame in Solidworks or any CAD package...
[09:36:45] <[VEGETA]> how and where can I get it manufactured? assuming it is aluminum
[09:37:45] <[VEGETA]> and how they make it waterproof near the wheels?
[09:38:19] <SpeedEvil> In general, that is a way to ensure it's expensive.
[09:38:44] <SpeedEvil> Not knowing how something is made is almost going to guarantee it is hard to make.
[09:38:51] <SpeedEvil> And thence expensive.
[09:39:21] <SpeedEvil> what sort of thing are you trying to make?
[09:39:21] <[VEGETA]> i read that aluminum is cheap
[09:39:26] <SpeedEvil> Well - yes.
[09:39:29] <rue_house> heh
[09:40:00] <[VEGETA]> i mean aluminum robots chassis online are cheap
[09:40:04] <SpeedEvil> But if your design involves implicitly milling your robot out of a 18"*36"*18" block of aluminium because there is no way to make it - it may not be cheap
[09:40:25] <SpeedEvil> no other
[09:40:41] <[VEGETA]> I imagine they would fold it and drill/cut some sheets
[09:41:40] <rue_house> and, the first 3 versions of your design will be wrong
[09:41:44] <rue_house> atleast
[09:42:51] <[VEGETA]> hhh yes possible
[09:43:29] <[VEGETA]> i was wondering how they made these robot chassis
[09:43:38] <rue_house> try to get something 3d printed right the first time, even with simple things, prolly not gonna happen
[09:43:45] <rue_house> which ones?
[09:44:55] <[VEGETA]> well, there are no 3d printing place in my country
[09:45:15] <[VEGETA]> but i imagine aluminum is widely spread
[09:45:16] <rue_house> I'd bet there are 100's of 3d printers
[09:45:53] <rue_house> I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere and there are more than 5 people with printers
[09:45:56] <[VEGETA]> are you sure? I am in Jordan
[09:46:15] <[VEGETA]> in egypt there is one i know
[09:47:34] <rue_house> arg, gonna be late for work...
[09:47:49] <rue_house> why dont you make it yourself?
[09:50:13] <[VEGETA]> i want to make sure it is manufacturable
[09:50:28] <[VEGETA]> especially the waterproofing part
[09:50:30] <rue_house> if you can make it, its manufacturable
[09:50:33] <[VEGETA]> near the wheels
[09:50:53] <[VEGETA]> it is not a miracle, it will be very simple
[09:51:08] <[VEGETA]> a box with some modifications to look nice
[09:51:11] <[VEGETA]> that is it
[09:51:11] <rue_house> oiled fiberglass cloth works great for a water seal
[09:51:37] <[VEGETA]> is that the thing they use in professional robots
[12:21:16] <[VEGETA]> i am looking to make a chassis like the Jackal robot one
[12:21:40] <[VEGETA]> I am good with electronics as I planned everything
[12:21:47] <[VEGETA]> but the mechanics are still not too much
[12:22:55] <[VEGETA]> i also need 4 motors, 2 with encoders... couldn't find better than polou
[16:50:58] <veverak> ok
[16:51:03] <veverak> finally finishing tests for one part of code
[16:51:07] <veverak> which takes care only of servos
[16:51:40] <veverak> like, you send angle you want, and it makes data for real hw controller
[16:52:07] <veverak> (in case of PWM servo it means faking response and taking care of setting pwm pulses (min, max, trim) )
[16:52:30] <veverak> and some code around it
[16:52:37] <veverak> 250 lines
[17:00:08] <[VEGETA]> these robots are awesome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ae-QzQbDDk << I'd like to design one myself in the future
[17:00:31] <[VEGETA]> vev, you mean you send angle to the mcu and it generates pwm signals?
[17:02:22] <veverak> yep
[17:02:35] <veverak> but, it got parameter with maximal speed
[17:02:59] <veverak> and igven that it's pwm server, it just modifies in time the ouput pwm until it reaches destined value based on speed parameter
[17:03:05] <veverak> and informs you that move is finished
[17:03:32] <[VEGETA]> hmm motor speed is determined by pwm as i know
[17:03:37] <[VEGETA]> that is for dc only
[17:03:44] <veverak> something like "in 'n' seconds inform that move is finished, where 'n' = abs(start-goal)/speed"
[17:03:45] <[VEGETA]> for servos, pwm is for position
[17:03:48] <veverak> I know
[17:03:55] <veverak> again, you set next pos
[17:04:07] <veverak> it calc diff, and based on speed parameter informs you when it should be finished
[17:04:08] <[VEGETA]> to control servo speed, u need to control the current supplied
[17:04:09] <veverak> and like I said
[17:04:20] <veverak> it's faking real feedback
[17:04:22] <veverak> :)
[17:04:28] <veverak> [VEGETA]: what?
[17:04:30] <veverak> or
[17:04:31] <[VEGETA]> is this ur hobby robot?
[17:04:32] <veverak> maybe
[17:04:34] <veverak> you can periodically
[17:04:40] <veverak> change the pwm impulse
[17:04:46] <veverak> so it looks like smooth movement that is slow
[17:04:55] <[VEGETA]> btw, are your pwm 50hz or what?
[17:05:01] <veverak> like instead of going from 1000ms to 1500ms
[17:05:06] <veverak> you go
[17:05:15] <veverak> 1000 -> 1010 -> 1015 -> 1020
[17:05:22] <veverak> with some time between changes in pwm
[17:05:32] <veverak> and thous control speed of position based pwm servo ;)
[17:05:38] <veverak> [VEGETA]: standart hobby pwm servos
[17:05:41] <veverak> 50hz I think?
[17:05:43] <veverak> or 60?
[17:06:04] <[VEGETA]> how you supply pwm when u don't know their frequency? :D
[17:06:10] <[VEGETA]> i smell arduino
[17:06:22] <veverak> or that I simply don't remember useless constants? :)
[17:06:27] <veverak> you don't need to know this
[17:06:29] <veverak> *remember
[17:06:51] <veverak> you just set it once and forget I suppose
[17:07:07] <veverak> [VEGETA]: nope, got i2c pwm generator chip
[17:07:11] <[VEGETA]> correct me if i am wrong... i know servo must have 50hz pwm cuz the time periods are like this :0-5ms, 1ms, 1.5ms
[17:07:11] <veverak> 12 bit resolution I think
[17:07:25] <veverak> nah, I've got 4k steps on full servo range
[17:07:28] <veverak> oh
[17:07:34] <veverak> I wrote it in bad way
[17:07:35] <[VEGETA]> but arduino library uses 500hz
[17:07:36] <veverak> anyway
[17:07:40] <veverak> servo is 50hz
[17:07:50] <veverak> time pulse is 1 - 2 ms
[17:07:56] <veverak> usually
[17:08:16] <[VEGETA]> I could not generate 50hz using pic mcu to control my servo
[17:08:22] <[VEGETA]> so i made a youtube video
[17:08:23] <veverak> wow
[17:08:26] <[VEGETA]> to solve it
[17:08:37] <veverak> "With many RC servos, as long as the refresh rate (how many times per second the pulse is sent, aka the pulse repetition rate) is in a range of 40 Hz to 200 Hz, the exact value of the refresh rate is irrelevant"
[17:08:42] <veverak> this was not on wiki month ago ;)
[17:08:44] <[VEGETA]> but how can arduino use 500hz for servo?
[17:08:44] <veverak> :D
[17:08:49] <veverak> or last time I checked
[17:09:02] <veverak> [VEGETA]: where it sais it's 50hz?
[17:09:08] <veverak> anyway
[17:09:09] <[VEGETA]> i read stuff
[17:09:14] <veverak> [VEGETA]: I am not solving this part now
[17:09:27] <[VEGETA]> what mcu are u using?
[17:09:33] <veverak> I am solving the part that makes pwm pulses values from angle values ;)
[17:09:36] <veverak> and fakes speed
[17:09:39] <veverak> sec
[17:09:47] <[VEGETA]> if pic, i have full code. done it myself
[17:09:54] <[VEGETA]> to use any frequency
[17:10:46] <veverak> https://www.adafruit.com/products/815
[17:11:02] <veverak> Adjustable frequency PWM up to about 1.6 KHz
[17:11:05] <veverak> sounds good to me :D
[17:16:53] <[VEGETA]> how can one charge batteries like this:
http://dabit.industries/products/4400-mah-big-battery
[17:17:04] <[VEGETA]> are there cheap known chargers
[17:17:10] <[VEGETA]> or i should design one myself
[17:17:28] <[VEGETA]> it is important to know which battery should i use with my robot
[17:18:00] * veverak would go with li-po
[17:18:02] <veverak> but nah
[17:18:04] <veverak> not expert
[17:19:13] <[VEGETA]> this is the chassis i wanna use:
http://www.robotshop.com/en/dfrobot-4wd-arduino-platform-encoders.html
[17:19:18] <[VEGETA]> it has encoders too :D
[17:21:51] <Snert_> that looks pretty fun
[17:24:29] <[VEGETA]> i want to use this chassis to build the robot with its custom made PCB (my challenge)
[17:24:44] <[VEGETA]> then think about making a true custom chassis
[17:24:55] <[VEGETA]> to make it more professional
[17:25:07] <[VEGETA]> but batteries... dunno which one to use
[17:25:13] <[VEGETA]> plus charging problem
[17:32:49] <Snert_> get a bigass lipo and an RC charger.
[17:33:25] <Snert_> then when you understand it all maybe build your own charger
[17:34:03] <Snert_> the care and feeding of lipos can be googled.
[17:36:14] <[VEGETA]> when the battery is low, its voltage will drop right? that is what i know
[17:36:31] <[VEGETA]> but if it drops the motors will work slower
[17:36:56] <[VEGETA]> so i thought of adding a voltage regulator to keep it constant at all times... is it good idea?
[17:38:34] <Snert_> yes. and you'll have a regulator anyways. And the battery will still drop towards the end of the charge.
[17:39:06] <Snert_> but you're definately on the right path!
[17:39:21] <[VEGETA]> i see robot projects without regulator for the motors
[17:39:31] <Snert_> lipos are great about maintaining voltage right up until the very end.
[17:39:35] <[VEGETA]> except for the electronics
[17:39:53] <Snert_> ok. so don't put a regulator on the motor supply.
[17:40:15] <Snert_> see the effect... try it all out. Can always add one later.
[17:40:18] <[VEGETA]> this is my question, if i don't put a regulator, it will be slower by time
[17:40:38] <[VEGETA]> but how to measure battery capacitance to know if it reached say 20%
[17:40:54] <[VEGETA]> i see projects online (diy) don't seem to care
[17:41:04] <Snert_> I use little charge indicator boards from RC hobby shops
[17:41:55] <[VEGETA]> aha
[17:42:04] <Snert_> hobbyking is a good place. Pretty cheap.
[17:42:09] <[VEGETA]> my passion is to make a custom pcb of the whole thing
[17:42:22] <[VEGETA]> so i need to understand
[17:42:25] <Snert_> get something working using off the shelf first.
[17:42:33] <Snert_> then make it better.
[17:42:54] <[VEGETA]> well, it will work ofc, nothing new about a 4wd robot
[17:43:29] <Snert_> but it's big fun :)
[17:44:48] <Snert_> at first...I don't wanna screw around with the battery when I'm building something.
[17:44:59] <Snert_> so I use a big lipo and a hobby charger.
[17:45:31] <Snert_> later on, after the motors all work and stuff is all mounted and such, I go back and re-do the lipo/charging scenario.
[17:45:32] <[VEGETA]> my intention is to make it fully usable by contacting with it by serial port
[17:45:43] <[VEGETA]> sending it a message containing pose and speed
[17:45:54] <[VEGETA]> then it automatically move
[17:46:15] <[VEGETA]> in order to integrate it with ROS
[17:46:27] <Snert_> then I would pare down the learning curve and tackle one thing at a time.
[17:46:40] <Snert_> by not tackling certain aspects.
[17:47:01] <Snert_> leave some stuff for later on after it's al basically working.
[17:47:19] <Snert_> but to each their own - there's many diffferent approaches.
[17:48:09] <Snert_> looks like you've already decided that you're not going to scratch build the chassis.
[17:48:19] <Snert_> and I think that's wise.
[17:48:30] <Snert_> until you know exactly how you would want it.
[17:51:29] <Snert_> for instance...are those motorized plastic wheels going to hold up or are they crap?
[17:52:03] <Snert_> you may decide to de-crapify the chassis with more skookum motors.
[18:24:38] <[VEGETA]> my problem is I look at good robots (like Jackal) but don't know where they get their parts
[18:24:45] <[VEGETA]> like motors
[18:24:57] <[VEGETA]> I saw some really nice motors on Polou site
[18:25:11] <[VEGETA]> I won't say they are expensive too
[18:25:34] <[VEGETA]> my ultimate goal is to make a true robust robot like jackal concept
[18:25:49] <[VEGETA]> so I will make a cheap one using that chassis
[18:26:03] <[VEGETA]> then think about pro stuff
[19:03:46] <Snert_> good stuph always is I guess.
[19:03:59] <Snert_> I buy used off of aliexpress.
[19:04:31] <Snert_> so maybe there could be $ saved if you could find something of the right specs
[19:05:13] <Snert_> I got a very nice nema 8 stepper with a planetary gearhead for 60bucks.
[19:05:23] <Snert_> the thing is tiny.
[19:12:15] <Casper> threaded rod... "vertical" force vs torque... am I right to say that force / tpi = 1" circumference of the gear that turn the rod?
[19:23:41] <[VEGETA]> well, the idea is to buy from a source that will ensure the motor will be sold in the future
[19:26:51] <Snert_> industrial automation.
[19:28:08] <Snert_> errr...rather....
[19:28:12] <Snert_> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Home/Home
[19:28:26] <Snert_> buchu ain't gonna get the good stuff cheap.
[19:29:18] <Snert_> I get my quadrature encoders from them.
[19:30:28] <Snert_> wanna be able to get mounts, shafts, couplers to work with your stuff?
[19:30:45] <Snert_> that ain't china nor made out of plastic.
[19:32:03] <Snert_> this is a really good encoder that is pretty small.
[19:32:08] <Snert_> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Sensors_-z-_Encoders/Optical_Rotary_Encoders/Light_Duty_Incremental_Encoders_(Quadrature)/4mm_Solid_Shaft_Line_Driver_(TRD-MX_Series)/TRD-MX1024VD
[19:35:14] <[VEGETA]> but too expensive
[19:35:37] <Snert_> that's why I identify them here, then buy used off of ali.
[19:35:54] <[VEGETA]> but why this much expensive
[19:36:05] <Snert_> good shit costs money.
[19:36:16] <Snert_> it ain't plastic.
[19:36:25] <[VEGETA]> so if i want to build a 4wd robot of these good shit
[19:36:31] <[VEGETA]> how much will it cost
[19:36:41] <[VEGETA]> assuming electronics from me
[19:39:35] <[VEGETA]> plus this is automation not robots
[19:46:04] <[VEGETA]> snert_ do you know a way to wirelessly control the robot
[19:46:10] <[VEGETA]> something with good range and cheap
[19:47:22] <SpeedEvil> define 'good range'
[19:50:09] <[VEGETA]> dunno, something like 30m or ...
[19:52:55] <[VEGETA]> what do u have
[19:54:18] <[VEGETA]> xbee sounds good
[20:20:43] <[VEGETA]> what do you use?
[20:22:20] <theBear> acid mostly
[20:29:45] <anonnumberanon> zzzzzzzz.........
[20:31:20] <anonnumberanon> theBear, shu8t kup
[20:31:24] <anonnumberanon> wow
[20:31:32] <anonnumberanon> that's a nice way to say shut up
[20:32:02] <anonnumberanon> [VEGETA], start by changing you8r name those bracse are not good for irc
[20:32:03] <SpeedEvil> [VEGETA]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXk2PsEaPJc
[20:32:43] <[VEGETA]> ?
[20:33:11] <Snert> google motino
[20:33:37] <anonnumberanon> vegeta
[20:33:48] <anonnumberanon> change your name without brackets
[20:34:33] <[VEGETA]> i explained why i use brackets
[20:36:28] <Snert> https://lowpowerlab.com/2014/08/09/moteinomega-available-now/
[20:38:58] <[VEGETA]> you used that?
[20:39:53] <[VEGETA]> how about this one:
http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/MRF24J40MA
[20:41:00] <[VEGETA]> i don't know about the range though
[20:46:24] <Snert> the freq band - 533mhz and 915mhz they go a ways.
[20:46:37] <Snert> 433 that is
[20:46:58] <Snert> it's not 802.11 wireless.
[20:47:40] <Snert> but I'm pissed cuz I only bought 1 so I can't do a link.
[20:48:31] <anonnumberanon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoBnFKxmTVU
[20:48:51] <anonnumberanon> [VEGETA], i explain that FUCK YOU
[20:49:23] <[VEGETA]> why the hate?
[20:50:08] <anonnumberanon> acause aget rid of the brackest you newbie
[20:50:18] <anonnumberanon> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarggggggggggggh
[20:51:33] <anonnumberanon> vegeta do you sometimes time someone's name and then press tab to do tab completion?
[20:51:39] <anonnumberanon> if you do you are normal
[20:52:05] <anonnumberanon> if you do yo should undwerstand yta t y;our ;name is fuicked up to do tab completion with
[20:52:17] <[VEGETA]> but i told u why i use brackets, it is not that i like it
[20:52:30] <anonnumberanon> immediate ignore
[20:52:32] <anonnumberanon> sorry dude
[20:52:37] <anonnumberanon> you had your chance
[20:53:13] <[VEGETA]> i still do not understand you. your way then.
[21:33:51] <anonnumberanon> fuck theBear ? you still do drugs?
[21:33:59] <anonnumberanon> even though you almost died?
[21:37:07] <theBear> when did i almost die ?
[21:37:39] <SpeedEvil> you've forgotten already?
[21:37:43] <SpeedEvil> must be the drugs.
[21:37:52] <theBear> sounds likely
[21:49:28] <anonnumberanon> yup
[21:49:32] <anonnumberanon> drugs will do that
[21:49:39] <anonnumberanon> they will die and survive
[21:49:59] <anonnumberanon> you, on the other side may or may not, it's all an random-ass game
[21:50:07] <anonnumberanon> that's what makes it the best game
[21:56:05] <Casper> question about steel...
[21:56:40] <Casper> how much stronger is it between a 1/8" and 3/16 steel bar? half more? or more?
[21:59:28] <SpeedEvil> Beam strength scales with the third power of thickness.
[21:59:36] <SpeedEvil> (if buckling does not happen)
[22:00:03] <SpeedEvil> So, 1.5* = 1.5^3 = ~3.3* as stiff and stron
[22:03:05] <Casper> really? interessing
[22:03:22] <Casper> 3 times as strong mean that it would be stiff enought
[22:04:02] * Casper wonders how strong I can make those welds...
[22:04:24] <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.dtonline.org/index.php/Calculating_Forces_in_Beams looks like a reasonable overview
[22:05:48] <Casper> thanks for the info :D the project relive!
[22:06:32] <Casper> I have some 1/8" here, and it's bendable with my fingers...
[22:08:21] <Casper> will read those this week end, now I'm too tired to understand anything... food is starting to work, should go to bed soon...
[22:10:04] <SpeedEvil> play around with some wire.
[22:11:35] <Casper> for?
[22:13:21] <SpeedEvil> to get an idea of how the structure works
[22:13:35] <SpeedEvil> soldered copper wire is going to be very similar in (1d) behaviour
[22:13:41] <Casper> oh I do have an idea
[22:14:05] <Casper> but I do plan to do it like that anyway to figure out the exact shapes...
[22:14:10] <Casper> or I go 3d...
[22:28:31] <Tom_itx> use better steel to use thinner steel
[22:28:42] <Tom_itx> higher carbon content
[22:29:13] <Tom_itx> weld it, anneal it, temper it for maximum performance from the steel
[22:29:14] <SpeedEvil> This doesn't make it stiffer.
[22:29:38] <SpeedEvil> It makes it stronger - it bends more before it takes a permenant set
[22:30:41] <Tom_itx> it's just a flower pot holder anyway
[22:31:26] <Casper> yeah, just a big heavy one
[22:31:39] <Casper> I'ld guess 10lbs per pot
[22:33:08] <Tom_itx> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrhXSIKR9NM
[22:34:57] <Casper> potato quality, but usefull!
[22:35:21] <Tom_itx> https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FZ0FzFcVWKu4%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZ0FzFcVWKu4&docid=Tm9VKRLi5Uzt6M&tbnid=j3LWBRojQFICBM%3A&w=1280&h=720&bih=660&biw=1022&ved=0ahUKEwiK1L-1zuDOAhVB22MKHaOsA1kQMwhoKAMwAw&iact=mrc&uact=8
[22:35:40] <Tom_itx> only don't weld the pins in place
[22:35:47] <Tom_itx> so you can move or remove them
[22:36:57] <Tom_itx> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j5BRozmaFo
[22:37:45] <Tom_itx> more for roundbar
[22:38:34] <Tom_itx> around 1 min in is flat bar
[22:40:27] <Tom_itx> around 2:40 is cool
[22:40:32] <Tom_itx> i wondered how they did that
[23:33:38] <Casper> 30lbin 1250rpm... that seems kinda powerfull isn't it?
[23:35:03] <Casper> ah math error, 15lbin...
