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[07:13:15] <veverak> hmm
[07:13:45] <veverak> one thing I find "tricky" for playing with IoT
[07:13:55] <veverak> is lack of 5V/12V power lines around my flat
[07:14:04] <veverak> and I don't like batteries
[07:14:06] <veverak> ;)
[07:15:59] <SpeedEvil> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/5-pcs-HLK-PM01-AC-DC-220V-to-5V-Step-Down-Power-Supply-Module-Intelligent-Household/32319202093.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.281.ndMlqQ
[07:17:04] <veverak> this part is last of the problems
[07:17:14] <veverak> laying wires all around and hiding tham in walls, is the problem
[07:18:57] <Snert> I can't use most of this iOT stuff due to that.
[13:28:45] <Silent> Hello :)
[13:29:29] <Silent> I feel very confused, hopefully someone here can help me clear things up - what field should I study at the university if I want a career at robotics?
[13:30:04] <Silent> I currently work as a software engineer and have a good understanding of computers, I'm thinking about either EE or ME
[13:42:22] <z64555> ME's seem to have more robotics classes, since motions and positioning is mechanics
[13:43:07] <z64555> EE's that get involved are usually focused on the electronics, the controllers, power supplies, and communications
[13:44:00] <z64555> The controller design is somewhat shared between the both of them
[13:45:47] <Silent> z64555: What do you mean the controller design?
[13:46:01] <Silent> To be honest I'm not even sure what sorts of jobs exist on the filed
[13:46:34] <Silent> I imagine there's programming, but what about for example a ME? How does he synchronise in the development cycle?
[13:51:20] <z64555> The controller is where the programming comes into play
[13:51:59] <z64555> microcontrollers (uC), programmable logic controllers (PLC) and a few others
[13:52:57] <z64555> uC's are essentially a CPU with some flash memory (think SSD's here) and some pins used to sense, communicate, and control servos
[13:53:21] <Silent> So like Arduino
[13:53:31] <z64555> yes, but more sophisticated
[13:53:35] <z64555> usually
[13:54:20] <z64555> Before the uC comes into play, there's usually a control system design. Such as a block diagram that maps out the inputs, outputs, and logic circuitry betwee
[13:54:22] <z64555> n
[13:55:24] <z64555> PID's are a basic control scheme, and can even be implemented with passive electronics or some machinery
[13:55:54] <Silent> Alright I understand
[13:56:11] <z64555> uC's are used instead of those nowadays because they're cheap, easy to manufacture, and versatile
[13:56:42] <z64555> also much much lighter than the machinery, which is important on many mobile robots
[13:58:49] <Silent> I'm still very confused though... What does the development cycle of a robot look like?
[13:58:57] <Silent> And what jobs are there
[13:59:04] <Silent> If that makes any sense
[14:01:14] <z64555> I can't say what the dev cycle looks like in the industry, as I haven't had a job yet that makes them
[14:01:50] <z64555> the job market where I'm at is... less than promising
[14:03:28] <z64555> ah
[14:03:42] <z64555> You should have a chat with somebody from both departments
[14:04:01] <z64555> they usually have an advisor chair for this purpose
[14:04:10] <anniepoo> if you want to work in robotics, rather than changing your field, you might just 'shade' what you study -
[14:04:52] <Silent> I don't mind changing my field
[14:05:14] <anniepoo> take embedded systems and basic electronics courses, make sure you've taken a physics grounding, and then simply learn the relevant technologies - build a home brew UAV, install ROS and use it to control a small robot you've built
[14:05:26] <anniepoo> I worked at a social robotics company.
[14:05:26] <Tom_itx> industrial automation
[14:06:29] <Silent> anniepoo: I was a little worried that this won't provide as much background information as a full degree would
[14:06:31] <anniepoo> 4 engineers with background in AI, 2 with general engineering backgrounds, 1 embedded dev guy with lots of hobby robot experience, 2 EE's, and a material science/ME guy
[14:07:14] * z64555 is unhelful
[14:07:16] <z64555> :D
[14:07:18] <Tom_itx> and what do they do all day?
[14:08:00] * anniepoo rolls eyes -
[14:08:06] <Silent> Also do the people with an engineering degree seem to have any sort of lead on the others?
[14:08:17] <anniepoo> notice I'm no longer employed there - was wacko
[14:08:36] <anniepoo> well, a degree helps. A PhD, if you're going into the AI end.
[14:09:22] <z64555> AI is usually an extension of controller design
[14:09:29] <Tom_itx> by the time you get your PhD you will be so far in debt you'll never recover from where you could have been just looking for a job
[14:09:42] <Silent> The easiest course for me to take right now is to major in computer science
[14:09:45] <z64555> pfft
[14:09:55] <z64555> that's assuming you take loans
[14:09:56] <Snert_> cs majors are dime-a-dozen
[14:10:20] <Silent> Snert_: Sorry could you please explain what that experssion means?
[14:10:32] <Tom_itx> that's a hefty chunk of change to have in your pocket
[14:10:36] <Snert_> cheap, easy to come by.
[14:10:42] <Silent> Oh ok
[14:10:51] <Silent> Thanks
[14:10:56] <Tom_itx> like a broadway hooker
[14:11:05] <z64555> very unhelpful
[14:11:13] <Silent> I also feel that cs would teach me the least new material
[14:11:13] <Tom_itx> cheap and easy
[14:11:21] <Silent> Which is a little unfortunate
[14:11:25] <anniepoo> true
[14:11:35] <Silent> I can already find employment easily as a programmer, so why bother with a degree?
[14:11:43] <Snert_> Pick a niche, like RF maybe.
[14:11:55] <anniepoo> but yes, there's something to be said for, for example, taking a year and just doing a bunch of robotics
[14:11:55] <z64555> With a degree, you can demand a higher wage
[14:11:56] <Snert_> on top of an EE degree.
[14:12:09] <Tom_itx> once you get your basic education from there it's just paper on the wall and more politics to deal with
[14:12:23] <Tom_itx> at that level
[14:12:55] <Tom_itx> now you've heard two points of view
[14:13:01] <Tom_itx> you will have to choose which one
[14:13:29] <Tom_itx> <- was just playing devil's advocate here...
[14:13:30] <z64555> Universities usually have connections with the local companies that are hiring
[14:13:37] <Silent> Demanding extra wage is great
[14:13:37] <z64555> ask around
[14:14:25] <Tom_itx> some have internships available
[14:14:35] <z64555> yes
[14:14:38] <Tom_itx> if it works out could turn into a permanent thing
[14:14:50] <Silent> So what I could do (and will be easiest) is to just major in cs and take courses to extend my knowledge
[14:15:35] <Silent> Or I could major in ee like Snert_ said
[14:16:10] <Silent> Would knowledge is RF be needed for programming embedded applications?
[14:16:20] <Snert_> just gotta find a niche where there is not a whole lot of competition.
[14:16:36] <Snert_> computers will always have a need to do radio.
[14:16:36] <Silent> If yes, there could be a nice synergy between my programming experience and the new studies
[14:16:47] <Silent> vs for example ME
[14:16:56] <Silent> Which doesn't fit in as well I think
[14:23:59] <anniepoo> Silent - often that's handled by a canned module. I have a friend who'se an RF engineer. She doesn't really rpogram at all, but does the real rf stuff like designing antennas
[14:27:49] <Silent> I see
[14:28:20] <anniepoo> but certainly you need to know basic electronics
[14:28:21] <Silent> What I'm trying to do basically is to pick a major that will help me but isn't cs
[14:28:33] <anniepoo> ok, then pick either ME or EE
[14:28:37] <anniepoo> what year are you?
[14:29:06] <anniepoo> you might want to look at whether you have to retake calculus
[14:29:14] <anniepoo> also, how compfortable are you with math?
[14:29:32] <anniepoo> I'm assuming 'fairly', but ME's actually get a lot more than EE's
[14:30:48] <anniepoo> also, you're going to be doing this a LOOONG time. You probably won't be building robots all your career, and if you are, they won't look much like ours
[14:30:50] <Silent> anniepoo: Not sure what system is at the rest of the world, but currently I graduated school a year ago and I'm looking for a university to start studying
[14:30:59] <Silent> I am 19 if that's importants
[14:31:01] <anniepoo> ah
[14:31:30] <anniepoo> So, it sounds like you're saying you don't want to spend the next 40 years programming
[14:31:38] <Silent> I'm somewhat comfrtanle with math. I don't like it a lot, but I do enjoy it when it gets practical
[14:31:45] <Silent> Ex I loved physics
[14:32:09] <Silent> anniepoo: Correct, I would like to learn something new
[14:33:50] <anniepoo> my major was physics
[14:34:04] <anniepoo> actually, I dual majored in CS and physics
[14:34:12] <anniepoo> I've never regretted it
[14:34:32] <anniepoo> the technology I learned then is long, long obsolete, but Maxwell's equations still work
[14:34:55] <anniepoo> my university had a degree, 'engineering physics'.
[14:35:07] <anniepoo> I think if I was doing it over that's what I'd major in.
[14:38:13] <Silent> Would majoring in physics be a good idea?
[14:38:22] <Silent> Just plain physics
[14:38:53] <anniepoo> you'd learn a ton of math, but less about technologies
[14:39:17] <anniepoo> physics majors who can't cut the math become math majors 8cD
[14:41:04] <Silent> It sounds to me like cs and ee will be more about making the robot run and making sure it doesn't fail
[14:41:18] <Silent> While me will be the guys thay build it
[14:42:48] <anniepoo> typical task for an ME would be things like designing an elbow for a robot that interacts with a child, so the robot can't pinch the child
[14:43:15] <anniepoo> or calculating how big a motor is needed to move the shoulder.
[14:44:21] <anniepoo> ask yourself, also, if you weren't building robots, would you be happy doing the job?
[14:45:13] <Silent> anniepoo: If I were priting the program and not building it, or working in a different field entirely?
[14:45:22] <Silent> writing*
[14:45:31] <anniepoo> cause if you're 19, you'll retire in 2062. Who knows, you might be working on a space station or building fully autonomous humanoid robots
[14:46:11] <anniepoo> well, obviosuly if you're an EE you're more likely to be working on robot motors
[14:46:12] <Silent> Sounds like fun
[14:46:38] <anniepoo> or RF links to the robot, or wiring a 3D structured light sensor up
[14:46:53] <anniepoo> if you're a programmer, you're more likely working on software at a desk
[14:47:09] <Silent> Which is what I'm doing now
[14:47:14] <Silent> :P
[14:47:19] <anniepoo> and all these things are relative
[14:47:41] <anniepoo> if I wasn't hiding from the heat, I'd be in the machine shop tapping holes in a metal plate right now
[14:49:09] <anniepoo> I worked on the robot's computer vision system
[14:49:37] <anniepoo> I'm actually doing some chemical coatings right now, and wishing I knew more chemistry
[14:51:14] <Silent> I bet that sucks
[14:51:24] <Silent> You learn so much and you just discover that there's so much more to know
[14:51:40] <anniepoo> no, that's great fun
[14:51:41] <Silent> And you can never be the best at anything so you are forces to compromise
[14:51:57] <Silent> Really?
[14:52:02] <anniepoo> yup
[14:52:29] <anniepoo> when I was about 12 the owner of the local electronics shop gave me this great advice
[14:52:38] <anniepoo> if you want to do electronics, study math
[14:52:41] <anniepoo> then physics
[14:52:43] <anniepoo> then math
[14:52:48] <anniepoo> then chemistry
[14:52:50] <anniepoo> then math
[14:52:53] <anniepoo> then electronics
[14:52:55] <anniepoo> then math
[14:52:58] <anniepoo> then english
[14:53:00] <anniepoo> then math
[14:53:46] <anniepoo> I'm working on a social robot right now, and reading early childhood development stuff for it.
[14:54:10] <anniepoo> Bet this just keeps going faster
[14:54:36] <anniepoo> My grandfather once told me about how cool it was the first time he saw a car
[14:54:48] <veverak> :D
[14:54:51] <anniepoo> My father proudly bought a tube black and white TV
[14:55:07] <anniepoo> I owned a Commodore 64
[14:56:26] <anniepoo> a couple years ago I figured out, for a talk, what a 24 year old in the audience would be using for a computer when she was 54 (as I was then)
[14:56:31] <anniepoo> using Moore's law
[14:57:02] <anniepoo> It had a Petabyte hard drive, a Terabyte of RAM, and a couple megacores
[14:57:30] <anniepoo> (lol - and probably still took 2 minutes to boot Windows 27)
[14:58:29] <anniepoo> At school we had a computer. It had it's own building.
[14:58:57] <veverak> well
[14:59:03] <veverak> that happens these days too
[14:59:28] <veverak> server cluster can be viewed as one machine :)
[15:00:20] <Silent> Multiple processors though
[15:00:52] <anniepoo> I extrapolated from my own laptop
[15:01:37] <anniepoo> well, probably it'd be some every word of memory is a processor type system, more like a GPU than a CPU
[15:02:04] <anniepoo> maybe computers will be an old, boring technology
[15:02:36] <anniepoo> like becoming a mining engineer, or electrical power engineer would be today
[15:02:49] <anniepoo> maybe there won't be programming as we know it.
[15:03:22] <Snert_> radio waves are forever.
[15:03:25] <anniepoo> maybe the AI people will get their act together, and we'll teach programs to do what we want much as we teach a human
[15:03:46] <anniepoo> but yes, you'll never regret learning Maxwell's equations
[15:04:28] <Snert_> indistrial controls is another cool area where you don't have to mess around with end users.
[15:05:50] <anniepoo> well, you might, if your job's to go do installs of abc co's fancy boiler controller
[15:06:36] <Snert_> that definition of end user is somewhat less strenous than a regular end user.
[15:06:56] <Snert_> not always, but quite often they have some clue.
[15:07:05] <anniepoo> but yes, if you don't want to deal with computer illiterate people, then embedded systems would be a good area
[15:07:43] <Snert_> the one thing I've noticed with building controls people is that........
[15:07:48] <anniepoo> being an EE mostly means spending days at an electronics bench
[15:08:16] <Snert_> they know their building controls really well. But if there's an ip addyor a network mask involved they tend to be clooless.
[15:08:25] <anniepoo> (depends, I know some EE's who spend their days making mathematical models in MathWorks)
[15:08:33] <anniepoo> (depends, I know some EE's who spend their days making mathematical models in MatLab)
[15:09:17] <anniepoo> I once applied for a programming job that would have been done 300 feet up in the air
[15:09:25] <anniepoo> while being dusted with flour
[15:09:39] <Silent> Why would you ever apply for such a job?
[15:09:48] <Silent> This sounds terrible
[15:10:09] <anniepoo> yes, well, it was an interesting interview
[15:10:21] <anniepoo> flown out to an elevator in the middle of Kansas
[15:11:12] <Silent> ME sounds more fun to be honest
[15:11:17] <Silent> I'm just still thinking about it
[15:11:18] <anniepoo> cool
[15:11:46] <Silent> I just love the idea of taking 3D models and actually producing parts and making things move
[15:11:52] <Silent> This is what robotics is all about to me
[15:11:57] <anniepoo> whichever of these you choose, I'd suggest you also locate a training course of some sort and learn to machine
[15:12:10] <anniepoo> well heck, have you considered being a machinist?
[15:12:27] * anniepoo is covered with swarf right now
[15:12:27] <Silent> lol
[15:12:30] <Silent> I have not
[15:12:32] <anniepoo> seriously
[15:12:38] <anniepoo> it pays better than being an EE
[15:13:07] <Silent> How come?
[15:13:17] <anniepoo> supply and demand
[15:13:34] <Silent> So that's how it is huh
[15:13:44] <anniepoo> and it takes longer, and more concentration, to be a tool and die maker than to be an EE
[15:13:53] <anniepoo> what country are you in?
[15:14:01] <Silent> Israel
[15:14:25] <anniepoo> Israel needs machinists
[15:14:39] <Silent> Israel needs all sorts of professionals
[15:14:50] <anniepoo> Some machinist showed me a tool he liked he'd bought from Israel
[15:15:00] <Silent> I assume machinists have a special training, right?
[15:15:08] <anniepoo> yes
[15:15:12] <Silent> Machinist courses or something
[15:15:19] <anniepoo> I don't know how it's done in Israel
[15:15:33] <anniepoo> in the US one attends a 'vocational/technical school'
[15:16:15] <anniepoo> but you have a skill, programming, you could teach yourself. Especially if you can find a maker space nearby
[15:16:21] <anniepoo> that has good machine tools
[15:17:31] <Silent> I think I heard of one that's relatively nearby
[15:17:51] <Silent> Everything is nearby in such a tiny country ;)
[15:21:16] <anniepoo> You're a smart, curious person
[15:21:44] <anniepoo> you could teach yourself everything you could learn at a vo-tech by yourself
[15:22:00] <anniepoo> and use the money to buy your own machine tools
[15:22:32] <anniepoo> however you do it, you'd need to set aside about $1500 US for a tool chest and your own tool set
[15:23:34] <anniepoo> put on a suit and tie (assuming you're male) and walk into a local machine shop. Ask the owner if you can buy him/her lunch, and ask how to become a machinist.
[15:24:09] <anniepoo> At lunch, suggest you'd come sweep the floors a couple days a week just for the experience.
[15:24:13] <Silent> That sounds like a good trategy for any profession
[15:24:25] <anniepoo> Start watching youtube videos
[15:25:10] <anniepoo> move to a place with a little shop space - a garage would work
[15:26:19] <anniepoo> buy one of those $400 chinese lathes, and start making typical beginner projects. Make friends with machinists, start buying tools
[15:26:53] <anniepoo> make a little one cylinder steam engine, do a good job on it, take it to the local machinist
[15:27:40] <anniepoo> you can learn to anodize aluminum, make something pretty, show him/her what you've done, ask questions
[15:27:53] <anniepoo> machining is a field where it's a norm to underplay your skills
[15:28:16] <anniepoo> but it's not unlike programming -
[15:28:23] <anniepoo> you learn it by doing it
[15:29:27] <anniepoo> credentials aren't important for most things
[15:30:08] <anniepoo> be prepared to put up with lots of cranky old men
[15:30:21] <Silent> Hahaha
[15:30:56] <anniepoo> seriously - make this decision based on what sounds like you'd enjoy most
[15:31:38] <Silent> Just like I said previously I enjoy the most when things are physical and real
[15:31:42] <anniepoo> spending the next 20 years in a (sometimes hot) machine shop, doing rather manual labor sometimes, but also using your brain, moving around a lot, starting with chunks of metal and
[15:31:56] <anniepoo> ending up with real stuff
[15:32:04] <Silent> That's why I really like programming controllers - your code usually results in a LED blinking or a servo moving something
[15:32:13] <Silent> Not just 3d models and windows and all
[15:32:16] <anniepoo> then yes, I'd say, spend a few bucks, take some machine shop owner to lunch
[15:32:25] <anniepoo> get a tour of his shop
[15:32:37] <anniepoo> are you detail oriented?
[15:32:55] <anniepoo> good machinists love craft, love making things 'just right'
[15:33:39] <Silent> I was told that I am several times
[15:33:46] <Silent> So I'll assume the answer is yes
[15:34:14] <anniepoo> being a bit 'picky' and a bit of a control freak is a good quality in a machinist.
[15:35:23] <anniepoo> you're taking expensive tooling and deliberately running it into metal blocks. If you do it wrong you scrap the block and the tool, and can get people hurt
[15:36:03] <anniepoo> It can be a physical job. Are you OK with a job that sometimes means lifting heavy stuff and sweating?
[15:36:18] <anniepoo> It's not a 'ditch digging' mindless job, but it's sometimes physical.
[15:36:30] <anniepoo> I'm sore today, cause I spent yesterday in the shop.
[15:36:49] <Silent> I was hoping to have a job that involves a balance of everthing, so on one hand I can sit at the desk and design things on the computer
[15:37:00] <Silent> On the other hand I can go out and assemble things, work with tools, etc
[15:37:05] <anniepoo> that's increasingly a large part of machining
[15:37:25] <anniepoo> you'd have to know CAD software, and spend time drawing. Commercial machine shops use CNC machines
[15:37:28] <Silent> So as long as it's not 100% of the time I'm ok with it. 50% of the time is also ok.
[15:37:57] <anniepoo> actually, many machinists complain that they now spend more time than they'd like in front of a computer
[15:38:13] <Silent> Doesn't sound like a problem to me
[15:38:33] <anniepoo> I'm making a jig. Spent saturday drawing it in CAD, now I'm making it
[15:38:35] <Silent> Computers are fun - air conditioning, coffee, music
[15:38:41] <anniepoo> yup
[15:38:54] <Silent> But so it geting up from the chair, just in a different way
[15:38:56] <anniepoo> are you OK with getting dirty sometimes?
[15:39:04] <Silent> Of course
[15:39:08] <anniepoo> ok
[15:39:22] <Silent> Grease, paint, etc?
[15:39:57] <anniepoo> yes - the machines have coolants that spray on the tools, and the tool's spinning, and naturally it splashes
[15:40:29] <anniepoo> but it's not a terribly dirty job
[15:40:37] <Silent> Sounds acceptable
[15:40:54] <anniepoo> the 'swarf' (metal shavings) are another dirty bit
[15:41:47] <anniepoo> Bet there's a ton of retired machinists in Israel
[15:43:38] <anniepoo> you might find a machinist who'd take you as an apprentice. That system's largely died out in the US, but might
[15:43:45] <anniepoo> still be in Israel
[15:44:07] <Silent> I'll ask around
[15:44:23] <anniepoo> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0272775787900434
[15:44:54] <Silent> Mush I purchase this article to read it?
[15:45:14] <anniepoo> if you know someone on a faculty they can probably get it for you
[15:45:53] <Silent> I actually think I know someone
[15:46:01] <anniepoo> cool
[15:48:25] <anniepoo> If you can't find anyone, I know somebody, but I can only use that connection every so often
[15:48:56] <anniepoo> you must have just graduated from what, in the US we call 'high school'
[15:49:52] <anniepoo> in US we have guidance counselors - people who can help you choose a profession. They might be useful
[15:49:58] <Silent> Yeah I belive that is the correct term
[15:50:04] <Silent> I have 12 years of education
[15:50:13] <Silent> 6 in elementary school, 6 in high school
[15:50:20] <anniepoo> ok, same as here.
[15:50:36] <anniepoo> So, they might have information.
[15:50:51] <anniepoo> but you might consider 'rolling your own'
[15:51:11] <anniepoo> because the money you save could fund buying a set of machine tools
[15:51:38] <anniepoo> and then you'd be in good shape - with a lucretive job skill, and the ability to make money on your own out of your garage
[15:52:10] <anniepoo> with your hobbyist robot skills and programming experience, you'd be in excellent shape to make robots
[15:52:52] <anniepoo> college is useful for learning theoretical subjects that are hard to learn on your own
[15:53:07] <anniepoo> and for a degree, which is the entryway into some professions
[15:53:47] <DagoRed> As an engineer... it's necessary. Outside of most fields in STEM... get a 2 year degree and certificates and you will be much happier.
[15:54:19] <anniepoo> I don't have a degree
[15:54:59] <anniepoo> definitely, if you're outside STEM, you need a degree.
[15:56:01] <anniepoo> and you might descide, after a few years as a machinist, to go to a formal program
[15:57:33] <anniepoo> anyway, at this point I need to go back to the shop and make things
[15:57:36] <anniepoo> 8cD
[16:09:20] <Silent> anniepoo: Sorry, thanks for the useful advice
[16:09:38] <Silent> I'll pop in every once in a while to talk to you guys :)
[16:18:13] <rue_house> "I dont know what I been told, my hearings gone cause I got old."
[16:29:20] <anniepoo> final thought - how important is status to you? machinists get less 'respect' than engineers. While it's the PC thing to say 'not at all' , only you can answer this for yourself, really
[21:35:37] <anniepoo> advice - don't drop heavy chunks of steel on your foot
[22:29:50] <ace4016> noted :P
[23:20:59] <Snert> Unless, your foot just happens to be also made of heavy steel.
[23:49:42] <z64555> even then, it would put a dent in your foot