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[02:34:00] <goppo> are there cheap plastic slip clutch gears around?
[02:34:15] <goppo> or are there too expensive to make?
[02:48:40] <rue_bed> hah, I havea box of them from photocopiers
[03:52:47] <SpeedEvil> very cheap to make
[03:53:42] <SpeedEvil> spring, gear sliding on axle, sine-wave thingy molded into the inside of the gear where it presses against the other gear
[08:41:08] <codepython777> anyone here who has done some research on batteries?
[08:53:15] <deshipu> codepython777: ask your question
[09:26:00] <codepython777> deshipu: sorry got booted, any suggestions?
[09:28:40] * deshipu juz sie nauczyl, zeby nie klikac
[09:28:43] <deshipu> argh
[09:28:44] <deshipu> sorry
[09:28:49] <deshipu> codepython777: ask your question
[09:33:31] <codepython777> deshipu: Looking for a 18V 7A source that will run for at least an hour - rechargeable easy - and wont explode.
[09:35:24] <deshipu> codepython777: won't explode in what conditions?
[09:35:32] <deshipu> everything explodes given enough effort
[09:35:57] <deshipu> otherwise, a 5S LiPo
[09:36:24] <codepython777> Lipos are out - am looking for battery
[09:36:38] <deshipu> define battery
[09:36:47] <deshipu> because lipo is totally a battery in my book
[09:37:09] <codepython777> deshipu: "and wont explode" :)
[09:37:24] <deshipu> codepython777: everything explodes
[09:38:02] <codepython777> deshipu: isnt lipo easier to pop than lifepo4 or nimh or li-ion?
[09:38:35] <deshipu> depends what you do with them
[09:38:43] <swarovski> it is not like.. pyrotechnics, it is a battery.
[09:39:08] <deshipu> put them in a microwave and they all explode
[09:39:33] <deshipu> codepython777: you can use a 6S lifepo4, if you find one
[09:39:39] <deshipu> codepython777: or two 3s ones
[09:39:47] <codepython777> deshipu: 5S will work - my problem is, I want to keep away from Lipos
[09:40:26] <deshipu> or any battery, really, and a boost converter
[09:40:36] <deshipu> you can use lead-acid
[09:40:40] <deshipu> they are cheap
[09:40:42] <deshipu> and large
[09:41:04] <codepython777> deshipu: I need something that is light and safe - preferably with some PCM or circuit inside that makes it safer?
[09:41:15] <deshipu> lipo
[09:41:43] <deshipu> they come with those circuits
[09:42:02] <codepython777> deshipu: most i see are just explodable?
[09:42:20] <codepython777> the circuits are generally in the charger?
[09:43:22] <deshipu> then put it in the charger
[09:43:28] <deshipu> whatever floats your boat
[09:43:45] <deshipu> I have a bunch in here that have those circuits built into the pack
[09:43:54] <deshipu> but maybe you are just looking at the cheap Chinese crap
[09:57:55] <codepython777> deshipu: What does dyson use? They need 18v - and they need to make it super safe
[10:03:54] <rue_shop5> codepython777, lithium-ion, the battery protector has to be ON the battery
[10:04:08] <rue_shop5> if there isn't, its probably a NiMh pack
[10:04:08] <Gottaname> hm
[10:04:11] <Gottaname> what about lipo
[10:04:18] <rue_shop5> lithium*
[10:04:19] <Gottaname> as long as you don't puncture it its fine
[10:04:25] <Gottaname> or overcharge
[10:04:29] <Gottaname> or charge it wrongly
[10:04:39] <rue_shop5> thats why its physically attached to the battery
[10:05:15] <Gottaname> the thing about lipos are they're cheap
[10:05:18] <Gottaname> and high discharge
[10:05:21] <Gottaname> and non toxic
[10:05:59] <rue_shop5> Gottaname, you got a name, but you got a song?
[10:06:11] * Gottaname sings the robbie williams song
[10:06:16] <Gottaname> LET MEEEEE ENTERTAIN YOU
[10:06:38] <Gottaname> R/C is robotics
[10:06:42] <Gottaname> robotics is R/C
[10:06:42] <deshipu> Gottaname: lithium is non-toxic?
[10:06:49] <Gottaname> lipo
[10:06:50] <codepython777> rue_shop5: Do you have a recommendation for a 18V >7A Li-ion that is easy to use in a robotics project?
[10:06:52] <Gottaname> not lithium
[10:07:02] <deshipu> Gottaname: well, lipos are made of lithium
[10:07:12] <Gottaname> deshipu, oh rly
[10:07:25] <deshipu> lithium-polymer
[10:07:26] <rue_shop5> calc 18/3.7
[10:07:26] <rue_shop5> 18/3.7 -->> 4.86486
[10:07:31] <rue_shop5> not really
[10:07:51] <deshipu> rue_shop5: they go up to 4.2
[10:07:53] <rue_shop5> but I'd get close with an S5
[10:07:54] <Gottaname> deshipu, the last I heard you can dispose of lipo batteries normally
[10:07:56] <Gottaname> into the trash
[10:07:57] <rue_shop5> yea
[10:08:01] <codepython777> 18.5 is fine
[10:08:04] <Gottaname> once discharged, they can be disposed of normally
[10:08:08] <rue_shop5> and 4.21 they go bang
[10:08:20] <codepython777> but i dont want lipo - it would be nice if i could just use something that is being used by dyson in their vacum cleaner :)
[10:08:21] <deshipu> rue_shop5: more like 4.4
[10:08:48] <rue_shop5> use a drill battery
[10:08:54] <Gottaname> put a battery alarm
[10:08:54] <deshipu> which is a lipo
[10:08:55] <Gottaname> zzzzz
[10:09:25] <deshipu> codepython777: buy a dyson vacuum cleaner and remove the battery, then
[10:09:33] <deshipu> codepython777: or maybe buy a spare battery for it
[10:09:34] <codepython777> rue_shop5: 18.5V, > 7A , preferably run at that load for > 1 hour
[10:09:56] <rue_shop5> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LITHIUM-Best-Price-Motorcycle-Battery-YTZ5S-FP-JMT-YTZ5S-YTX4L-BS-YTX5L-BS-/272019273763?
[10:10:03] <rue_shop5> 7A for an hour!?
[10:10:27] <rue_shop5> so about 126Wh
[10:10:33] <deshipu> 5 * 7Ah lipos :)
[10:11:09] <rue_shop5> you cant pull 1A from a 1Ah battery for 1h
[10:11:14] <rue_shop5> it dosn't work that way
[10:11:24] <deshipu> "about an hour" :)
[10:11:29] <codepython777> deshipu: the problem is the charging circuit rue_shop5: yes at least 126Wh
[10:11:37] <rue_shop5> thats to theyoratical 0 energy, you cant take a battery down to 0
[10:11:52] <deshipu> rue_shop5: but I did that several times!
[10:12:05] <deshipu> admittedly, that broke the battery
[10:12:06] <rue_shop5> it has to hit the minimum percent discharge after the time
[10:12:25] <rue_shop5> which for lead-acid is 80%
[10:12:26] <codepython777> rue_shop5: the one you linked is 12V - 24Wh
[10:12:43] <rue_shop5> yea, ... hmm
[10:12:47] <deshipu> I think you need a Mr. Fusion
[10:12:55] <rue_shop5> ebay is ignoring my search terms
[10:13:01] <rue_shop5> off to work, bye!
[10:14:59] <deshipu> codepython777: what do you need such huge amount of power for?
[10:15:12] <deshipu> codepython777: out of curiosity
[10:16:48] <Gottaname> I need to get rid of all these spare R/C tank treads
[10:24:03] <doomlord_> how far off is 100% automated food production
[10:24:14] <doomlord_> self driving tractor etc
[10:54:43] <deshipu> doomlord_: far
[10:55:16] <deshipu> doomlord_: so far we only managed to build about 2 or 3 machines that worked for 30 years without maintenance
[10:55:51] <doomlord_> i guess by 100% automated i should qualify at what point human input can stop
[10:56:03] <doomlord_> building/maintaining the machines
[10:56:03] <deshipu> well, 100% is 100%
[10:56:14] <doomlord_> yeah its perhaps a bad way to word the question
[10:56:59] <deshipu> there is another reason for that
[10:57:21] <deshipu> human labor is relatively cheap and universal, so it doesn't make sense to automate too much
[10:57:46] <deshipu> I mean, people will do stuff even if you don't pay them to
[10:57:46] <doomlord_> thats kind of what i suspected. e.g. we're down to 2% of the workforce doing it already?
[10:58:04] <doomlord_> i was just htinking surely self-driving tractors are WAY easier than self-driving cars dealing with traffic
[10:58:21] <doomlord_> but the latter gets more effort, because there are more peoples' time being wasted in traffic
[10:58:39] <deshipu> I think that's not the reason
[10:59:07] <deshipu> the reason it gets more effort is becuase it's the people who make the decissions that are stuck in traffic
[10:59:17] <deshipu> nobody cares if a farmer is inconvenienced
[11:00:03] <doomlord_> i can see what you're trying to say, execs etc direct experience involves traffic
[11:00:11] <deshipu> all the "innovative" and "disruptive" inventions are aimed at the yuppie market
[11:00:33] <doomlord_> but there must be enough people who are really skilled at looking at the big picture
[11:00:52] <deshipu> who decides what to do?
[11:01:03] <doomlord_> i gather there are projected fuel savings from automated deliveries (convoys, driving slower at night)
[11:01:23] <deshipu> don't get me wrong, I think "solve your own problem, and maybe you will solve a problem that a lot of other people also have" is a valid strategy
[11:01:28] <doomlord_> sure
[11:01:53] <deshipu> just some people are more empowered to solve their problems than other
[11:01:59] <doomlord_> I also like innovation where you create one enabling tech, then once it exists it changes the way people think and it finds uses they wouldn't have anticipated
[11:02:04] <doomlord_> i think self-driving cars will be like that
[11:02:26] <deshipu> well, I live in a country where cars are not really so big
[11:02:33] <doomlord_> as well as self-drive cars there will be the courier bots
[11:02:35] <deshipu> and they are not a problem, as almost nobody has a car
[11:02:58] <deshipu> you know, we've had self-driving cars since a century
[11:03:05] <doomlord_> you mean trams?
[11:03:06] <deshipu> they are called "public transportation"
[11:03:09] <veverak> :D
[11:03:10] <doomlord_> 'light rail'?
[11:03:19] <deshipu> all of those
[11:03:29] <veverak> I figured out that for a lot of people
[11:03:31] <deshipu> you just have to start using them there
[11:03:33] <veverak> 'car' is sign of ...
[11:03:38] <deshipu> freedom!
[11:03:40] <veverak> nope
[11:03:57] <veverak> damn it
[11:03:57] <doomlord_> i used to thikn self-drive cars were a waste of time, because i have a negative view of cars generally
[11:04:00] * veverak lost the world
[11:04:10] <veverak> *word
[11:04:13] <veverak> daaaaamn
[11:04:22] <doomlord_> but [1] it will decrease car ownership (taxis, with no driver cost) [2] it's really the idea of automated deliveries that is exciting
[11:04:33] <doomlord_> door to door
[11:05:09] <doomlord_> and handling the difficult case - traffic - will push the sensor / computing tech along
[11:05:10] <deshipu> there is that pneumatic mail system in Prague, also almost a 100 years old
[11:05:31] <veverak> :)
[11:05:33] <doomlord_> its still easier to have a vehicle that can go anywhere , i think
[11:05:48] <deshipu> but they can't go everywhere
[11:06:03] <deshipu> a bike can go everywhere, a horse can go almost everywhere
[11:06:11] <deshipu> a car has to pretty much stick to the roads
[11:06:33] <doomlord_> self-driving delivery vehicles could have differnt formfactors, i'm thinking 'delivery-bots' more than 'cars'
[11:06:51] <doomlord_> like automated cycle couriers (but 4+wheels obviously)
[11:07:56] <doomlord_> supposedly permaculture is more labour intenstive but can increase yields , so agri labour boost might actually be helpful
[11:08:06] <doomlord_> no one wants to go back to the fields
[11:08:32] <deshipu> yeah, automated delivery from amazon will certainly boost that farmer's life
[11:09:36] <deshipu> how about we go the other way
[11:09:36] <doomlord_> living remote but serviced by delivery drones
[11:09:49] <deshipu> make farmer's life easier and eliminate our careers
[11:10:22] <doomlord_> the objective is 100% unemployment :)
[11:10:38] <deshipu> that's a very bad idea, and fortunately not possible
[11:11:03] <deshipu> well, unless you mean contracted employment
[11:11:15] <deshipu> that of course can be changed to a more elastic scheme
[11:11:18] <doomlord_> i can imagine AI doing all the work between people, shared knowledge handling efficiency, and self-work complementing what machines can't do. e.g. buy things in kit form, more time self-assembling.
[11:11:39] <deshipu> but you have to remember that contracted employment was introduced precisely to protect the employee
[11:11:48] <doomlord_> employment (vs '1 man hunter gatherers") is partly needed for specialization
[11:11:57] <deshipu> during the industrial revolution and the capitalism running wild
[11:12:08] <doomlord_> i suepect in a lot of cases what you are really paying for is a device or a resource
[11:12:22] <doomlord_> e.g. hiring someone to fix something.. bringing tools & materials
[11:12:45] <deshipu> you are paying for attention
[11:12:46] <doomlord_> so just have a drone deliver that and grab some youtube videos, assisted with AI wizards to assess your situation
[11:13:08] <deshipu> doomlord_: no, I don't want to have to learn to fix my plumbing
[11:13:15] <doomlord_> i understand a lot of jobs like restaraunt waiters are probably about some sort of social interaction
[11:13:25] <deshipu> (actually, me personally, I do, but most people don't)
[11:13:33] <doomlord_> but people dont need to spend money for social interaction. they do it for free
[11:13:42] <deshipu> doomlord_: all jobs are about having something done for you
[11:13:50] <deshipu> doomlord_: so that you don't have to
[11:14:03] <doomlord_> yeah but there's 3 components. [1] some special knowledge. [2] special equipment. [3] laziness
[11:14:11] <doomlord_> parts [1] and [2] are what really matter IMO
[11:14:20] <deshipu> doomlord_: no, it's not laziness
[11:14:37] <deshipu> doomlord_: it's finite human attention
[11:14:54] <deshipu> doomlord_: out lives grew so complex, that we can't afford to pay attention to every detail
[11:14:57] <doomlord_> "special knowledge" obviously DIY surgery wouldn't be so good
[11:15:07] <deshipu> doomlord_: so we outsource
[11:15:19] <doomlord_> specialization. this is part [1] in my assesment
[11:15:38] <deshipu> no, that's part [3]
[11:15:56] <deshipu> except it has nothing to do with being lazy
[11:16:06] <deshipu> and everything to do with cognitive overload
[11:16:07] <doomlord_> an example of part [3] is buying a sandwich from subway. someone makes it for you because you weren't organized enough to pack your own
[11:16:26] <doomlord_> part [1] is cognitive overload. we can't all know surgery, engineering etc
[11:16:40] <deshipu> doomlord_: or you were too busy fixing your plumbing
[11:16:43] <doomlord_> so we specialize. "division of labour"
[11:17:12] <doomlord_> now there's a theory that even without AGI, narrow AI will make inroads into some types of knowledge work
[11:17:23] <doomlord_> common sense is still too hard for machines, but everyone has their own
[11:17:35] <deshipu> doomlord_: when I hear "not organized enough" I have a sudden urge to bash someone's face in, because it's the usual argument of people who have everyting handled for them of why people who don't are overloaded
[11:17:46] <doomlord_> so I ask , could narrow AI wizards + everyones own common sense suffice
[11:17:56] <doomlord_> and in a world where people aren't employed, they have more time to self-study
[11:18:27] <doomlord_> lol ok
[11:18:33] <deshipu> doomlord_: you know what, go out there, try some of the harder physical jobs, try raising a few kids, and maybe then come back and start making social theories
[11:19:20] <doomlord_> biology already specialized females for raising kids
[11:19:40] <deshipu> or did it?
[11:20:00] <deshipu> or maybe this is just your culturally-ingrained assumption?
[11:20:12] <doomlord_> their body is designed to carry them, they're naturally more empathetic etc
[11:20:23] <doomlord_> physically smaller usually
[11:20:29] <deshipu> boy, you didn't meet many women, did you?
[11:21:08] <doomlord_> these are observed facts... on the whole they are better communicators etc, whilst men are better at spatial awareness etc
[11:21:09] <deshipu> here's news for you: the variation among individuals is an order of magnitude larger than the average differences between sexes
[11:21:25] <deshipu> doomlord_: you are talking about stereotypical males and females
[11:21:32] <deshipu> which has nothing to do with the reality
[11:21:36] <doomlord_> i'm not saying men have zero empathy and women have zero spatial reasoning
[11:21:47] <doomlord_> but on the whole there is a tendancy
[11:22:02] <deshipu> no, but there are women who have better spacial reasoning than most men
[11:22:03] <doomlord_> i'm not saying women should be confined to those roles
[11:22:05] <deshipu> and the other way around
[11:22:16] <doomlord_> sure, bell curves
[11:22:36] <deshipu> right, so there is no specialisation, really
[11:22:42] <deshipu> not along those lines, anyways
[11:22:58] <deshipu> there are men who are much better at raising children than most women
[11:22:59] <deshipu> etc.
[11:23:04] <doomlord_> its not sexist to say there is specialization, its not a criticism or saying that womens place is in the kitchen etc
[11:23:12] <doomlord_> they're just better at that role on average
[11:23:14] <deshipu> I'm not saying it's sexist
[11:23:25] <deshipu> I'm saying it doesn't match the reality
[11:23:42] <doomlord_> ok let me rephrase.
[11:23:42] <deshipu> averages are a very bad way of reasoning here
[11:23:56] <doomlord_> in response to your assertion "try doing the harder physical jobs or raising some kids"
[11:24:03] <doomlord_> i'll leave that to the Sensors, and Feelers.
[11:24:32] <deshipu> right, because we have a different kind of specialisation here
[11:24:40] <deshipu> people who make the decisions and people who work
[11:25:05] <deshipu> and the ones who work don't really have any attention left to make decisions
[11:25:21] <deshipu> because they are basically selling their attention
[11:25:44] <deshipu> and their time
[11:25:56] <deshipu> but mostly attention -- we have more time than attention, generally
[11:26:03] <doomlord_> my desire to improve humanity is for people to have more time to themselves
[11:26:19] <doomlord_> without the inefficiency of '1 man bands', by virtue of shared information
[11:26:43] <deshipu> doomlord_: so you won't get that by shipping them tool kits and making the learn plumbing just to fix a simple leak
[11:26:55] <deshipu> them*
[11:26:56] <doomlord_> its a great shame that we still keep people sat behind tills etc
[11:27:33] <doomlord_> i'm speculating , will a combination of narrow AI and internet knowledge plug the gap
[11:27:51] <deshipu> do you know how long in a week did a hunter-gatherer have to work to support himself?
[11:27:58] <deshipu> how many hours in a week?
[11:28:03] <doomlord_> maybe it's too ambitious but I'm not claiming a world of APM etc
[11:28:14] <doomlord_> i would imagine a hunter gatherer had to work harder, as there was no specialization
[11:28:30] <deshipu> about 16
[11:28:33] <deshipu> a week
[11:28:33] <doomlord_> or rather less specialization (tribe wide instaed of national, global)
[11:28:55] <doomlord_> really?
[11:28:59] <deshipu> makes you think
[11:29:08] <doomlord_> i woudl ahve thought they would be much busier, foraging et
[11:29:24] <deshipu> sure, they died at age 20
[11:29:28] <doomlord_> i heard back then '40% of people were killed by other peopel'.. constant territorial war perhaps
[11:29:29] <deshipu> and most of their babies diefd
[11:29:31] <deshipu> died
[11:29:37] <deshipu> and if anything happened, they starved
[11:29:38] <deshipu> etc.
[11:29:43] <doomlord_> 16hours of hunting and gathering, 30+ hours of inter-tribal one-upmanship perhaps?
[11:29:44] <deshipu> but life was generally simplier
[11:29:57] <doomlord_> yeah higher child mortality
[11:30:31] <deshipu> also, they couldn't live in many areas where people live today
[11:30:45] <deshipu> because it was too rough
[11:31:04] <doomlord_> sure we have heating , pumped water etc
[11:31:20] <deshipu> yes, but all that means a lot of complication
[11:31:28] <deshipu> and our minds are not really made for that
[11:31:37] <doomlord_> whats the name of that paradox
[11:31:37] <deshipu> we can only keep track of so many problems at a time
[11:31:48] <doomlord_> some things are really hard for minds, but easy for machines , and vica versa
[11:31:51] <deshipu> so we outsource
[11:32:05] <deshipu> we pay our landlord to keep our house functional
[11:32:06] <doomlord_> this is why i think narrow AI will go far
[11:32:18] <deshipu> we pay our police to keep our streets safe
[11:32:19] <deshipu> etc.
[11:33:03] <doomlord_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec%27s_paradox
[11:33:26] <doomlord_> this is why , despite machines being nowhere near human intelligence, I think narrow AI *does* have the potential to eliminate a whole lot of work.
[11:34:03] <doomlord_> i'm invisaging human common sense + machines supplying the specialization via narrow AI.
[11:34:33] <doomlord_> obviously not overnight
[11:34:40] <doomlord_> but this is why i think mass unemployment is possible
[11:34:50] <deshipu> doomlord_: I'm not sure introducing more non-human in our lifes would make them easier
[11:35:03] <doomlord_> i'm reminded of agent smiths speaches
[11:35:17] <doomlord_> we are already machine dependant.. it's just admiting the truth more
[11:35:42] <doomlord_> the amount of food depends on the amount of fuel etc more than the number farmers. and so on
[11:36:11] <doomlord_> the natural world has always had interdependance, its' just like another layer of ecosystem
[11:36:15] <doomlord_> 'the machine world'
[11:45:29] <deshipu> that's certainly an appealing story
[11:50:16] <doomlord_> we're way beyond 'human factors' already
[11:50:38] <doomlord_> human comfort zone is tribes where you know 100 people etc
[11:51:03] <doomlord_> way beyond the natural human comfort zone
[12:03:56] <z64555> now if we can just figure out this sociology business we can have our robot utopia
[12:15:56] <deshipu> how about we get back to the 100 people times, just with modern technology?
[12:18:03] <z64555> deshipu in insinuating in WW3. D:
[12:18:19] * z64555 pretty sure that's wrong grammar...
[12:18:22] <doomlord_> i want the full robotopia
[12:21:20] <deshipu> z64555: nah, the birth rate is dropping anyways
[12:21:34] <deshipu> z64555: doesn't have to be a war, can happen within several generations pacefully
[12:21:55] <deshipu> z64555: but not with increaing complexity of the society, where you need more specialization and more roles
[12:23:07] <z64555> I really should read Asimov's books some day
[12:25:21] <deshipu> asimov tells plausibly sounding and appealing stories
[12:25:30] <deshipu> reality is rarely like that