#robotics Logs
Dec 26 2015
#robotics Calendar
02:05 tyridge77 I'm a new robotics/technology hobbyist who just purchased an Arduino Mega, would someone be able to answer a question I have?
02:06 ridge77 slaps AdrianG around a bit with a large fis
02:08 Jak_o_Shadows hi
02:10 tyridge77 Jak_o_Shadows,
02:10 tyridge77 Sorry for the incredibly stupid question, I'm still a noob to all of this
02:10 tyridge77 How would I get this battery https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11856 to plug in to this arduino mega? https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11061
02:11 tyridge77 It doesn't seem to connect properly and I probably derped out and didn't buy some adapter?
02:12 Jak_o_Shadows You'll probably want an adapter
02:12 tyridge77 What adapter though? I'm confused
02:13 Jak_o_Shadows Now, that board wants 7-12V input. Which your battery, at 7.6V, perfectly suits
02:13 Jak_o_Shadows Thing is, that is only through the power jack
02:13 tyridge77 Hmm
02:16 tyridge77 So what do I do?
02:16 tyridge77 I don't mean to have everything spoonfed, I just don't want to fuck things up and again I'm still very inadequate lol
02:16 Jak_o_Shadows Now, this may not be the most efficient way
02:17 Jak_o_Shadows but http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-Deans-T-Plug-Female-Connector-Silicone-Wire-w-16-5cm-/171373477961?hash=item27e6a7c049:m:mVb50Gv9J9yiNFHeXMGjozA connecting to http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-male-5-5-2-1mm-barrel-jack-connector-with-screw-terminals-/161016078987?hash=item257d4e628b:g:OEMAAOxyu0BRfDNA may work
02:20 tyridge77 What would be more efficient?
02:20 tyridge77 Also, another random question, can I use any of the arduino shields and boards with my raspberry pi?
02:21 Jak_o_Shadows The ideal connector, or cutting wires and soldering a jack on, etc.
02:21 Jak_o_Shadows um, directly? Generally not I would guess
02:36 tyridge77 Jak_o_Shadows: messaged you
04:50 veverak hm
04:50 veverak deshipu: got power bank for christmas
04:50 veverak little thinking in my head says
04:50 veverak that proper power bank could be interesting power source
04:50 veverak (aka one that doesn't need external charger)
05:14 deshipu yes, but most of them have current limits
05:15 deshipu which shut them down if you draw too much
05:15 deshipu the ones I tried didn't work with tote's power needs
05:17 veverak well, Xiamoi power bank I bought for dad sais it cna handle 2A
05:17 veverak hmm
05:17 deshipu nice
05:18 deshipu I only tried cheap ones I got free at conferences
05:18 veverak yeah, makes sense they can't handle proper amperage
05:19 deshipu I still use them for testing
05:19 veverak but it's 3.7A 10Ah
05:19 veverak little bit heavy
05:19 veverak :D
05:19 deshipu especially when there may be shorts
05:19 theBear most of the ones i seen inside (not had to look in a tubular style one yet, i guess they'd just be sub-c kinda cells which might be a bit toughter,) are just "oversized" phone batteries
05:20 theBear heh, there's a MASSIVE li-ion pack in a dead mini-ups in the "backburner" pile of maybe eventually repairs in the other room... that thing is kinda scary, just a BIG solid block of battery
05:22 deshipu make a welder ;)
05:22 deshipu a welding spider bot
05:34 Snert they missed the boat on a pi zero
05:34 Snert I wanted to use one but alas, no nework or wireless.
05:41 deshipu I just received unwiredone
05:42 deshipu unwiredone
05:42 deshipu from kickstarter
05:42 deshipu half the size of pi zero, wifi, two ethernets...
05:43 deshipu but the cpu is a very slow atheros
05:43 deshipu just like vocore
05:43 veverak hmmm
05:44 deshipu 1.27mm pitch headers
07:01 Snert I like that blackswift board
07:46 deshipu haven't tested it yet, will do so next year
09:56 akem hey
09:57 akem anonnumberanon just got my m90 micros and m995 and they both suck so much i can't even believe it
09:57 SpeedEvil :/
09:58 akem it will take good care not to trust your advice next time anon
10:00 akem just tried m90 with arduino.cc lib example from barragan its ok, micro servos
10:01 akem but the m995 they don't even turn, i tried external power supply also since its drawning current from the board
10:01 akem the LEDs are going out
10:12 akem i wonder if 1 of the m90 micro servo fried out on 12V
10:13 akem the control board, its just few resistor and 1 IC
10:14 akem current is low for both when looking at the datasheets, but possibly its the same as for steppers regarding this
10:15 akem anyway im off see you guys and hot female robots.
10:46 anonnumberanon Lol i have 20 mg995 servos akem is not doing his testing correctly apparently..
10:47 anonnumberanon lol if he put 12V to them he really is a dumbass
10:47 anonnumberanon and yes, most likely fried them
10:47 SpeedEvil wow
10:47 SpeedEvil depr
10:55 anonnumberanon what does that mean?
10:59 anonnumberanon when i tested and was at 6V it was starting to run erratically so i immediately dialed the power supply down
10:59 onnumberanon never saw akem again
10:59 anonnumberanon lol
11:00 SpeedEvil depr is like derp, but more
11:18 anonnumberanon looks more like a DEPRecated derp
14:19 rue_house as well as cooking the chips, increasing the voltage brings up the loop gain of the controller
14:26 anonnumberanon At least he didn't burn too much money.. :)
14:39 robopal why he has a 12v supply for the servos in the first place
15:26 anonnumberanon robopal, nobody knows, but he probably decided to go newbie gangster mode, consider it to be a lego brick and not ask for help when not knowing what to do.
16:46 deshipu you have to burn your share of parts
16:46 deshipu and it has to hurt
16:48 veverak exaclty
16:49 veverak deshipu: progress!
16:49 verak got working ros-node to send servo command and working 4 leg n
16:49 veverak (they just wait for commands to where leg should move)
16:54 deshipu nice
16:54 deshipu you have a repo?
16:55 veverak yep, but code is mess and needs a lot of debugging
16:55 veverak also, new experimental leg math O:)
16:55 veverak deshipu: tried to code it in a way that isntead of setting length between joints of leg
16:56 veverak etc..
16:56 veverak you simply use vector everywhere
16:56 veverak base -> coxa -> femur -> tibia vectors
16:56 rue_house gee if I get my ik library set up with my motion control library, I'll stay lightyears ahead of you
16:56 veverak deshipu: http://git.veverak.org/tote.git/tree/master/catkin_ws/src/
16:56 veverak but that math is not tested yet ..
16:57 veverak also usage of ros things is not perfect yet
16:57 verak needs to do some refactoriza
16:57 rue_house your playing back a set of poisitons to do the walking, right?
16:57 deshipu nah
16:58 deshipu that'd be inflexible
16:58 rue_house what is the source of the motion control
16:58 veverak nothing yet
16:58 rue_house didn't you already hav it walking?
16:58 veverak api is that you set where tip of leg should be -> magic -> you get angles for servos
16:59 rue_house that magic is called ik
16:59 veverak i know
16:59 veverak also, it's pretty easy to talk to servos directly
16:59 deshipu s/magic/elementary school geometry/
16:59 rue_house you need like 2 or 3 functions
16:59 veverak deshipu: usage of quaternions made it 'non-elementary school'
16:59 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/programming/c/ik/
17:00 rue_house those ones
17:00 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/programming/c/ik/ikLib.c
17:00 veverak but on previous versions, it showed ability to tilt center of robot
17:00 rue_house ^^ sorry, those ones
17:00 veverak so I suppose I should have same abillity here :)
17:00 deshipu then there is the planning on where to put next leg...
17:00 veverak you know, to point that laser on that robot correctly up/down/left/right
17:00 veverak without lifting leg
17:00 veverak nah, need more time to test it if my idea is ok
17:01 rue_house oh I dont think anyone will ever use any of my code
17:01 rue_house its like HD44780 libraries
17:01 veverak lol
17:01 rue_house people dont use other peoples libraries, they write their own
17:01 veverak rue_house: that code doesn't do what I want from it
17:01 rue_house its all you need to do any ik
17:02 veverak but still can't compare to aim of mine
17:02 rue_house well, it dosn't help with linear joints
17:02 rue_house those are just for angular joints
17:02 veverak mine got several layers over it so you just fill in dimensions of robot
17:02 veverak and it cna work with that
17:03 rue_house mmhmm
17:03 veverak variables are: center of body, direction of body, endpoint of leg
17:03 veverak and yeah, somewhere inside it uses exactly what you posted for ik ;)
17:03 rue_house that library of mine is for making the next layer thats robot specific
17:04 verak tries to upgarde it in a way that only thing specific is number of jo
17:04 rue_house the main thats there does an SDL example of a 2 axis arm
17:04 veverak and their axis direction
17:04 veverak thre joints, axis on Z/Y/Y
17:04 veverak otherwise fully configurable and general
17:04 veverak or I hope so
17:05 veverak again, need more testing
17:05 rue_house I always break the ik down into xy planes
17:05 verak does the same inside the
17:05 rue_house or yx or xz
17:05 rue_house I have a new one to work out with the air muscles
17:06 veverak first three functions just modifies leg-endpoint so I can neglect most of the variables
17:06 veverak and in the end it's just xy plane problem with triangle
17:06 veverak ...
17:06 veverak ;)
17:06 rue_house I can do 4:3 compression of the axies, I'm gonna sit down at some point and work out the translation math
17:06 rue_house well, sounds like your on the right road
17:07 veverak yeah, this is v2
17:07 veverak v1 worked in simulation in CAD quite well
17:07 veverak this is one step more general by using vectors to describe the leg
17:08 veverak point is that I've got that robot modeled in cad and I am able to export the vectors
17:08 veverak :)
17:08 veverak goal is that I should be able to change the model of the robot freely and updating the sw to reflect changes in the leg should be piece of cake than
17:10 deshipu not all feometries have simple ik solutions
17:10 veverak true
17:10 deshipu leg geometries
17:11 deshipu sorry, on a phone
17:11 veverak yeah
17:11 veverak but still it should be improvement and make things more practical
17:13 Hyratel freed up a DVI cable by putting my DVI screen on the HDMI port with an adapter. but, sadly, my card won't do HDMI-and-DVI dual screen
17:19 robopal so...
17:47 akem hello again
17:49 akem anonnumberanon your biped robot will be using mg995 only?
17:51 akem i wanna try animatronic eye with 2 micro servos, but without 3d printer its very hard
17:54 akem any one of you driving 12v hardware from 5v output? i need this for my relay i ve seen things online, will try 2n222 or some other transistor
17:57 robopal wait a minute
17:58 robopal explain what you are connecting to what
17:58 robopal don't rush
17:59 robopal so you have a 5V output, from a uC, a PWM pulse of an I/O pin?
18:00 robopal by hardware you mean motors?
18:04 akem robopal motors or whatever
18:06 robopal yes ok, any plans about avoiding the noise?
18:06 robopal what microcontroller are you using?
18:06 akem robopal i may have some 5v relays need to double check, maybe my board could not deliver enough current when i tested
18:06 akem arduino 328p
18:07 robopal ok
18:12 akem robopal what you use?
18:12 robopal nothing
18:13 akem do you drive 12v motors or something? nothing?
18:16 robopal no i am not building anything atm
18:17 robopal you know you can drive a servo directly from the arduino right?
18:17 akem http://www.dx.com/p/8-channel-5v-solid-state-relay-module-board-red-blue-121337
18:18 akem this was the one i was trying to use, i can activate it from my external power supply, buyt n
18:18 akem but not from the board
18:19 akem robopal who told you that?
18:19 robopal before you said something like trying to use some servos with 12v supply?
18:19 robopal I am trying to ensure we are on the same page :D
18:20 akem i guess it must be anon, he got royalties from motorola just by advertising stuff over there
18:20 robopal lol
18:20 akem no i want to drive bigger steppers and AC HW
18:21 akem 240 v
18:21 robopal lets talk about what you have now
18:22 robopal so you have this relay board, thats for 12v it says
18:22 robotustra_ evening
18:23 akem robopal, no way
18:23 akem hello robotustra, hows .ca doing?
18:24 robotustra_ doing slowly
18:24 robotustra_ run gyro sensor
18:24 robotustra_ now restoring used SLA
18:25 akem the sensor from the doctor
18:26 robotustra_ from ebay
18:26 robotustra_ bmx-055
18:26 robotustra_ 9 DOF sensor
18:26 robotustra_ now thinking how to put everything into my robot's bas
18:26 robotustra_ now thinking how to put everything into my robot's base
18:28 robotustra_ 3 batteries, 1 DC-dc convertor, edison, 3 arduinos, drivers current sense
18:28 robotustra_ 4 relays
18:31 akem whats your dc dc convertor?
18:32 robotustra_ 24v to 12 v
18:33 robotustra_ this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/380763090526?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
18:34 akem 10A, cool, what you use it for?
18:35 robotustra_ robot
18:35 akem why you need to downscale voltage like this?
18:35 robotustra_ I want to stabilize it
18:35 akem the batteries you re using?
18:35 robotustra_ lifepo4
18:36 robotustra_ but how it's usual SLA
18:37 robotustra_ I ordered these ones http://www.aliexpress.com/item/8pcs-lifepo4-battery-10ah-3-2v-cells-lifepo4-10ah-30A-high-drain-power-tool-batteries-For/32391647991.html?spm=2114.031010208.8.9.dGgyh2
18:38 robotustra_ they can vary from 28V to 24V
18:38 robotustra_ and I need stable 12-13 V
18:38 robotustra_ to feed all stuff
18:43 akem robotustra im looking at the intel edison board, is it what you have or is it arduino edison board? cause they have the same appelation
18:44 akem robotustra ok nice
18:56 akem im off bye
19:20 rue_shop3 pff, MY robot has a dual P4-2Ghz, with 4G of ram
19:21 Hyratel HT?
19:22 rue_shop3 Its dedicated, it flashes the led on the top
19:22 rue_shop3 only takes 89% processor usage
19:22 Hyratel cute
19:22 rue_shop3 there is a VM and 3 levels of emulators
19:22 rue_shop3 the last emulator is a 555
19:25 rue_shop3 I wanna redo it
19:27 rue_shop3 on the vm I want to run a java powerpc emulator that runs a java intel emulator that runs a Z80 emulator that runs a 6502 emulator that runs the 555 simulator
19:28 rue_shop3 the setup I have dosn't crash enough
19:28 robotustra_ rue_shop3: are you trolling ppl in here?
19:28 rue_shop3 if slic3r and pronterface can crash and lock up 3 times a day, my led flasher should crash about 4 to 6 times a day
19:29 rue_shop3 cause thats how we like it in the modern world
19:29 rue_shop3 screw those minamalistic things that only do one thing forever
19:30 rue_shop3 gimme something that consumes LOTS of power, and can do anything for atleast 3 minutes before you have to restart it
19:30 rue_shop3 cause, you know its all gonna get thrown away tommorow anyhow
19:33 robotustra_ I think you are trolling or drunk
19:33 rue_shop3 :P I dont drink
19:34 robotustra_ from shallow vessels?
19:34 robotustra_ so, it means that you are troll
19:34 anonnumberanon <akem> i guess it must be anon, he got royalties from motorola just by advertising stuff over there
19:34 anonnumberanon IRC gold
19:36 rue_shop3 who knows what a SLA7024M is?
19:36 Hyratel 7AH 24v leadacid battery
19:36 rue_shop3 unipolar :(
19:38 rue_shop3 it could microstep tho
19:42 rue_shop3 hmmmmmmm
19:44 anonnumberanon What should I do I am bored.
19:44 rue_shop3 hmm
19:45 anonnumberanon Maybe I'll go to a channel, ask a question, make a few vague and uneducated blanket statements and leave before getting answers.
19:45 rue_shop3 build a robot
19:45 rue_shop3 you have 4 hours and $20
19:45 anonnumberanon Actually I'm away from my shop and can only program but I'll play the whatif game.
19:45 rue_shop3 and this time you cant tear apart the toaster
19:46 anonnumberanon I think I'll try and finis my inserted linked list sorter.
19:46 rue_shop3 try to make a java program that takes less than 1M of memory and can run for more than 4 hours without crashing
19:47 rue_shop3 fix the segfaults, in inkscape and slic3r
19:47 anonnumberanon while(t < H4) {malloc(java:do javathings); free(said_java_object_factory_factory);}
19:47 rue_shop3 fix the "pause" button in pronterface so that when its printing, the pause button is always enabled
19:48 rue_shop3 I'd put $1 on it leaking to death long before 4 hours
19:48 onnumberanon b
19:49 anonnumberanon If you somehow restart that "java instance" or something maybe not.
19:50 anonnumberanon But I don't want to talk about Java (pronounced "Ha-vah"). It turned me away from programming in college and I had to beat the learning curve alone to get back on track.
19:51 anonnumberanon I have to move my entire shop in 5 days.
19:51 anonnumberanon The landlord is getting evicted so me and my roommates too.
19:51 anonnumberanon Getting out of the city.
19:52 anonnumberanon This is a relaly bad time I was going to get my robot to kneel and stand.
19:54 anonnumberanon rue_shop3, with that little program project i just talked about it's to sort the PWMs before feeding them into the PWM maker, that way I don't have to check all 10 outputs on each loop to turn them off at the right time, I can just check the next one on the list and see if I should turn it off in the while loop.
19:54 anonnumberanon /blog
19:57 anonnumberanon When you building dat small humanoid to fight me rue_shop3 ?
20:01 rue_shop3 your LANDLORD is getting evicted!?
20:02 rue_shop3 your not in canada with the tennancy act?
20:02 rue_shop3 the 12' mecha?
20:03 rue_shop3 I'v already got bits of it started
20:03 rue_shop3 various materials and things
20:56 adam789654123 im gonna build krang from teenage mutant ninja turtles
20:57 adam789654123 after that, prolly build a robo cop or something
20:59 mrdata- this? http://s3.amazonaws.com/digitaltrends-uploads-prod/2014/08/krang-tmnt1.jpg
21:02 adam789654123 text only for me
21:02 adam789654123 im rolling eighties style still
21:03 adam789654123 i must be really nostalgic for that time before i even started using computers?
21:03 adam789654123 idk
21:03 adam789654123 krang is probably harded to build than robocop anyway
21:04 adam789654123 which shows that i have abosulety no idea what im talking about
21:06 anonnumberanon mrdata-, you retrieve old anime from my youth
21:10 anonnumberanon rue_shop3, i live at a place where one of the roommates was subletting us the rooms, and that roommate is getting evicted
21:10 anonnumberanon they prolly want to raise the rent
21:11 anonnumberanon rue_shop3, how many air muscles do you have thus far?
21:12 adam789654123 you prolly got me on this "prolly" kick anonnumberanon
21:12 adam789654123 and its prolly gonna make its way into my spoken language
21:12 adam789654123 because its so damn easy to say
21:12 anonnumberanon yeah prolly man
21:12 adam789654123 :D
21:13 adam789654123 i think you've helped in modifying the english lang
21:13 adam789654123 because i think thats prolly gonna catch like wildfire
21:13 anonnumberanon It's Newspeak man. If you don't use it BigBrother will get you.
21:13 adam789654123 its gonna be bigger than "aint"
21:13 adam789654123 haha
21:14 adam789654123 ok.... im done playing nostrodomaus for today
21:14 anonnumberanon I can't wait until the NSA makes it illegal to not use new words. Enforcement will be piece of cake with their spying infrastructure. For Americans at least.
21:15 adam789654123 assuming that it makes any sense to do so?
21:15 adam789654123 seems such a damn waiste
21:15 adam789654123 f*cking clapper..... NSAs never gonna live that down
21:15 adam789654123 XD
21:16 adam789654123 the thing that was so brilliant about the "we are not spying on you" scandal is just how red handed they all got caught
21:16 anonnumberanon adam789654123, I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want, and why you picked me, but I have a very particular set of skills I have acquired over a very long career.
21:17 adam789654123 hmm.....
21:17 anonnumberanon You have my robot parts, give them back and no harm will be done to you or your family.
21:17 adam789654123 haha
21:17 anonnumberanon If you refuse, I will find you, and I will kill you.
21:17 adam789654123 well.... ive only been acused of having robo-cock
21:17 adam789654123 :p
21:18 anonnumberanon It went there..
21:18 adam789654123 haha
21:18 adam789654123 i think that should be a new series maybe?
21:18 adam789654123 a porn star gets cut down in the prime of his life
21:19 adam789654123 the doctors bring him back as...... robo cock
21:19 adam789654123 i mean..... robo cock (all rights reserved)
21:19 adam789654123 i guess (patent pending) doesnt apply
21:20 adam789654123 well.... maybe it would, depending i guess
21:22 anonnumberanon B-but..robots are porn to me!
21:22 anonnumberanon And space, space tech. Even moreso than robots.
21:23 adam789654123 quick talking about porn dammit! Im on the terminal
21:23 adam789654123 sheeesh
21:23 anonnumberanon This is why my humanoid may or may bot be equipped with a jetpack.
21:23 adam789654123 really?
21:23 adam789654123 i didnt know you were into space tech
21:23 adam789654123 thats cool to know
21:23 anonnumberanon because "jet" just is the coolest word ever
21:24 adam789654123 haha
21:24 adam789654123 but you are into spacetech prolly?
21:24 adam789654123 for real
21:24 adam789654123 thats interesting
21:24 adam789654123 i dont have much knowledge there, but i want to expand into that area
21:24 adam789654123 very interesting to me
21:24 anonnumberanon well yeah, preparing technology for extreme abuse, that's a real turn on
21:25 adam789654123 well.... im not into bad trips
21:26 anonnumberanon yeah but look: you prepare a vessel for traveling through the atmosphere after it played around a bit in space
21:26 anonnumberanon that's what it's about
21:26 adam789654123 i mean satalite technology, space craft, theoretical physics, that kind of stuff
21:26 adam789654123 our place in the universe
21:26 adam789654123 the shape of the universe (theoretically)
21:26 anonnumberanon I am mostly about landing spacecraft, finding ways to do things we haven't done, like asteroid mining, using resources from other planets..
21:27 adam789654123 planets, solar systems, galaxies, universes, ....
21:27 adam789654123 yeah
21:27 adam789654123 you will require *alot* of theoretical work also
21:27 anonnumberanon ahh, nothing more complicated than you'll learn watching Cosmos with Carl Sagan
21:27 adam789654123 Carl Sagan was awsome!
21:28 adam789654123 i *loved* cosmos!
21:28 adam789654123 another good one is Connections
21:28 adam789654123 if you havent, check it out
21:28 adam789654123 you will love it
21:28 adam789654123 :D
21:28 adam789654123 James Burke : Connections
21:28 anonnumberanon but space tech, is in the golden age now, and the amount of stuff to be invented that is both useful and cool as shit, is immense, and with basic engineering principles, and a bit of budget hacking, cause we just don't got all the money that it actually costs to do new things, but we have time
21:29 adam789654123 interesting, and i agree
21:30 anonnumberanon For example, you can do some research of the state of the art of space tech and start putting the pieces together in different ways to try and imagine what could be done with space exploration.
21:30 Hyratel anonnumberanon, the basic versions of the control systems are easily available
21:30 Hyratel ie
21:30 adam789654123 in time manufacturing processes can be moved into space
21:30 Hyratel we have cheap accelerometers, gyros, motor controllers, etc
21:30 adam789654123 or ive heard that manufancturing can be cheaper in space because you can do things like change the gravity
21:30 Hyratel adam789654123, only in limited quantity
21:31 adam789654123 but in the long haul?
21:31 adam789654123 idk
21:31 anonnumberanon Hyratel, when I say "we just don't have the money" i mean people like me who want to work on that sort of stuff but cannot have rocket launch-type budgets.
21:31 Hyratel consider this - it's only economical for processes that are impossible terrestrially
21:31 adam789654123 you can have variable gravity within one station
21:31 anonnumberanon So we have to limit ourselves to robotics research and hope it may one day turn into something usable in the space industry.
21:31 Hyratel the one place that's lagging behind is liquid model rocketry
21:31 robotustra_ robo woman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhHC51xFAnk
21:31 adam789654123 this can be *very* appealing to manufacturing designing and implementation
21:32 adam789654123 if we are mining astroids, we *will* be manufacturing in space
21:32 adam789654123 its not even a question of it
21:32 adam789654123 *if
21:34 anonnumberanon yes, and the little servo robot projects may seem silly but they are the way to making autonomous mining and manufacturing for remote places like asteroid, surface of moon and moon craters(where moon water is), or mars surface and mars underground, as well as soon, when we start growing balls, the subsurface ocean of Europa at Jupiter
21:34 adam789654123 and its not about "money" as specifically as resources
21:34 adam789654123 money is just a vehical to resources
21:37 anonnumberanon Hyratel, what do you think about Elon Musks' non-economical activity around getting to and settling Mars.
21:38 Hyratel elaborate upon?
21:38 Hyratel actually, moon habs will probably be in lava tunnels
21:39 anonnumberanon What would he say if you told him that, that Mars for instance is not economical an endeavor?
21:39 anonnumberanon http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2887/1
21:39 anonnumberanon Space commercialization: finally ready for liftoff?
21:41 Hyratel anonnumberanon, "because it's there"
21:42 anonnumberanon You're probably right, and "because I can".
21:49 anonnumberanon In the future I think settlement will "grow" from robotic "seeds". The bare minimum in robotics is dropped off and has a metal foundry and some equipment to reproduce itself from in-situ raw materials. As the robot population grows larger, the tasks start to shift around and molds for new models are made, for instance ones that can now build human-rated habitats, then ones that can warm up ice, filter it and store it at a proper
21:49 anonnumberanon temperature for consumption. I've thought about an implantation that would consist in a mother and children type of structure, the mother has foundry and children just fetch raw materials. Some children are manufactured from the mother periodically, and at a certain point of resource amounts, another mother can be created, and production doubles.
21:51 anonnumberanon I'm out of ideas when researching how to have a machine manufacture an electrical wire or a chip..
21:52 anonnumberanon I guess for finding the most minimalistic solution, one would need to buy a functioning electronics manufacture and try to reduce its size without reducing its functionality, until it becomes small enough to be sent off to a planet.
21:52 mrdata- wire is doable
21:53 mrdata- for chips, there are more steps
22:00 anonnumberanon One of the early manufacturing goals would be the replacement of robot workers, and the manufacture of solar panels.
22:00 Hyratel so...
22:01 Hyratel not unlike playing Space Engineers
22:01 anonnumberanon I've seen that game it looked fun.
22:01 anonnumberanon There needs to be a better one that does not have humans.
22:01 mrdata- crude metal ingots may be simplest
22:02 Hyratel you need to start with enough Parts to build an arc furnace (able to refine iron, nickel, cobalt
22:02 mrdata- uses reduction with heat, H2 and vacuum
22:02 Hyratel and enough parts to build an Assembler
22:02 mrdata- recycle the H2 by electrolysis
22:03 mrdata- of water
22:03 Hyratel and a set of solar panels or a reactor
22:04 anonnumberanon maybe have the "seed" use a large small ATG for power whose size is chosen from how long it should take to build up enough solar power to run current machines.
22:04 SpeedEvil It depends if you believe in mature nanotech.
22:04 anonnumberanon I don't.
22:04 SpeedEvil With mature nanotech, it almost resolves into a coding problem
22:04 Hyratel lets assume not mature nanotech
22:04 Hyratel so we've got a drillerbot and a builderbot
22:05 Hyratel or a small and large builderbot
22:05 anonnumberanon retriever-assembler-foundry/motherbot
22:05 Hyratel a small builderbot with a general purpose or turret effector can transport material
22:05 SpeedEvil you left out '480000 ton refinery'
22:05 Hyratel a triclaw is versatile, and only requires two actuators
22:06 Hyratel SpeedEvil, do you really need it though
22:06 Hyratel build your structures with cemented stone powder
22:06 SpeedEvil sure - if you purely want structure
22:06 anonnumberanon structure is second phase
22:06 SpeedEvil 'cemented' raises issues of its own
22:06 Hyratel then use that structure to attach smaller segments of equipment into
22:06 anonnumberanon first phase is not letting the "seed" die
22:07 Hyratel what does our colony seed consist of then
22:07 anonnumberanon "growing the metallic virus"
22:07 Hyratel are we assuming nanotech?
22:08 anonnumberanon must reproduce the robots and power sources until the probability of all of them breaking at the same time becomes close to null, and additional design requirement: make it so it does not last decades
22:09 anonnumberanon nanotech is probably the limiting factor of what can be achieved/how fast
22:09 Hyratel well lets take some ideas first
22:09 anonnumberanon 8-bit vs Arm type of deal
22:09 anonnumberanon even 8-bit stuff is nanotech
22:09 Hyratel we can send raw or subassembly components witht he system
22:09 anonnumberanon or is it several dozen microns?
22:10 Hyratel the bit count is irrelevant to the semiconductor process size
22:10 anonnumberanon They don't make new 8-bits, they use old designs.
22:10 Hyratel the smaller the process size, the smaller the "feature detail" you can accomplish
22:10 Hyratel that still doesn't attach it
22:10 anonnumberanon so all the arm chips will have much smaller transistors than 8-bits
22:11 Hyratel you could use (for ex) 64nm process to make 200nm Trace designs
22:11 Hyratel even though 64nm process could go down to (say) 72nm track
22:11 Hyratel now hold on
22:11 Hyratel you do not want small-track process
22:11 anonnumberanon but hey, because of their sizes, chips, and even entire boards can just be sent along with the seed, and stored on a rack, thus limiting the challenge to only electrical connectors/wires, actual metal parts, and maybe sensors?>
22:12 Hyratel that's one part of radiation hardening - increasing the track and junction sizes for geometric redundancy against radiation strikes
22:12 Hyratel you could model your control and logic systems on existing publically available designs
22:13 anonnumberanon so boards in boxes that are well made already on Earth and radiation protected, and which a robot can easily plug some large connector into
22:13 Hyratel so you can have motor controllers, generic mainboards, and optical and sensory packages that can be assembled on-site
22:15 anonnumberanon maybe can limit the sensors by having a good live feed from an orbit satellite, so only antennas are required
22:15 Hyratel hobby robotics is very capable already
22:15 Hyratel haha no
22:15 Hyratel that's not how orbit works
22:17 anonnumberanon I guess a really hard and really impactfull challenge would be to use little energy to retrieve lots of moon dust to the refinery/foundry.
22:17 Hyratel spatial awareness and camera systems - Basic Camera Head has 640x480 stereo cameras, laser point cloud (lower-quality Kinect class system) and built-in 3D space computation
22:18 Hyratel basic mobility - 4 wheel rocker assembly
22:19 RyanS Building a moon lander?
22:19 Hyratel easy to design for assembly, uses far fewer parts than a 6 wheel rocker bogie
22:19 Hyratel designing a Colony Seed
22:20 Hyratel basic Loader - platform forklift
22:20 anonnumberanon it's that energy vs amount of materials retrieved that bothers me though
22:20 Hyratel your seed's bootstrap is going to be hella power hungry
22:21 Hyratel you need to scout materials, break materials, gather them, and bring them back to Motherbase
22:22 Hyratel yeah, go play some Space Engineers
22:22 Hyratel it'll be enlightening
22:22 anonnumberanon what can combine all these things together?
22:23 Hyratel you don't want to combine tasks
22:24 Hyratel combining tasks means you have a more complex single robot, and switching tasks means downtime from any one task
22:24 Hyratel you want a lightweight, cheap, quick scout
22:24 Hyratel a sturdy, stable, slow grinder/breaker miner
22:25 Hyratel a stable-in-motion Conveyor
22:25 Hyratel you can combine Miner with Loader
22:26 RyanS so preparing for the day when earth is uninhabitable and those with wealth and/or technical ability colonise (Mars?)?
22:26 anonnumberanon it would be nice if having more power makes the entire seeding process faster. the growth would be somewhate exponential
22:27 Hyratel anonnumberanon, ever play an RTS/basebuilding game?
22:27 Hyratel like SupCom
22:27 anonnumberanon RyanS, take your pick, Moon, asteroids, Mars
22:27 Hyratel the principles are much the same
22:27 robotustra_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXLvljqde0M
22:28 Hyratel anonnumberanon, essentially you're playing SupCom in a Random-Gen map
22:28 Hyratel well somewhere between Space Engineers and SupCom
22:28 anonnumberanon Hyratel, yesh Starcraft and Starcraft II for years and years but in a seed colony there is no fighting, however mining and retrieving can be though of as the fighting. But in that case, which part of the design is the "fighting tactics and strategy"?
22:29 Hyratel anonnumberanon, Space Engis has a Peacveful mode
22:29 Hyratel and you turn off win conditions and AI opponents
22:29 anonnumberanon In starcraft the base is as close as possible to the minerals to mine. So make the motherbot mobile.
22:30 Hyratel you give the motherbot "sacrificial mobility
22:30 Hyratel it allows you to move to the target site, then remove the mobility hardware for repurposing
22:31 Hyratel thusly, you get your starting hardware for your miners and such
22:31 RyanS Hmm, that makes me think of Matt Damon in Interstellar 'this planet is perfect, definitely come and colonize this one'
22:31 Hyratel use only one type of wheel module
22:32 anonnumberanon RyanS, yes I was just thinking of that movie
22:32 Hyratel anonnumberanon, but seriously
22:33 Hyratel you build the motherbot with sacrificial mobility, and give it an onboard prebuilt scout
22:33 Hyratel land your motherbot, and offload the scout
22:33 Hyratel alternately
22:33 RyanS damn Matt Damon, chickening out on the suicide mission
22:33 Hyratel prescout the area with cheap expendable scouts that can be later recovered for mateirals
22:34 anonnumberanon I mean so far I'm trying to brainstorm the single hardest thing of such an endeavor and see whether or not it is possible or not. So far everything seems doable, with ok or poor time windows, like how long it actually takes, but I'm trying to think of things I've overlooked in the idea of "seeding with robots". What would fail?
22:34 Hyratel well waht are the individual modes of failure
22:35 anonnumberanon 1: no power coming at the bot
22:35 RyanS robot gets a flat battery?
22:35 anonnumberanon yeah
22:35 anonnumberanon oh i forgot about the manufacture of batteries
22:35 RyanS stuck in a ditch
22:36 Hyratel battery tech ahs been constantly improving
22:36 anonnumberanon yeah that's a big one
22:36 Hyratel first question
22:36 anonnumberanon ^stuck in a ditch
22:36 Hyratel what's your descent weigh
22:36 Hyratel weight
22:37 Hyratel and is it a single descent or multiple vehicles
22:37 anonnumberanon I'm thinking whatever two Falcon Heavy rockets can put down with their landing technology used on the reusable Falcon.
22:37 Hyratel if it's multiple vehicles that drastically increases your options
22:37 Hyratel ok, that's a starting point
22:37 RyanS or someone crimps a connector badly and the robot dies
22:39 Hyratel so we have two descent vehicles
22:39 anonnumberanon okay so 53 tons each, so 100 tons of equipment as seed
22:39 Hyratel that lets us have one with a bunch of basics, and one with the motherbot
22:40 anonnumberanon with or without assembly before the start, on the surface
22:40 Hyratel motherbot has say... 2 light scouts preloaded prebuilt
22:40 anonnumberanon <RyanS> or someone crimps a connector badly
22:41 Hyratel you might be surprised what you can do in small size as far as metal fabrication
22:41 anonnumberanon no there is no "someone" in this scenario
22:43 anonnumberanon do you ship all the motors? (i.e. coils of copper wire arranged around a magnet core, both into a circular case, which should be pretty hard to do autonomously, provided there even is copper.)
22:43 Hyratel yes
22:43 Hyratel that's why you have sacrificial mobility on the motherbot, instead of permanent mobolity
22:44 Hyratel when you find your site, you canibalise the mobility
22:44 anonnumberanon i think we need to limit the challenge by determining at which point of the seed the humans should feel safe to arrive: hermetic structures, lots of stored water, enough power production for them and for the bots still
22:45 anonnumberanon oh, lol and good air to breath
22:45 RyanS where does Matt Damon fit into all this? I mean, he's into the space colonialism
22:45 RyanS lately
22:46 anonnumberanon so a landing close to source of water, such as ice craters on the moon, or whatever liquid water to be gotten by digging on Mars or just be near the ice poles
22:47 anonnumberanon that will be good for making water and making oxygen, as well as rocket fuel potentially, as a bonus
22:48 anonnumberanon So a habitat that would house 10 people?
22:49 RyanS umm, so are humans going to live in domey things? biospheres
22:50 RyanS Morale could be an issue
22:50 anonnumberanon Yeah that or digging underground holes. Not sure which is less energy-hungry and automatable.
22:52 RyanS underground sounds too depressing
22:53 anonnumberanon underground with a couple windows here and there, and possibility to get out and get in the vehicles and the likes
22:54 anonnumberanon also if the space is large enough, you can strap on some wings and actually fly like a bird
22:54 anonnumberanon You can do that on the moon.
22:56 RyanS maybe those imitation scenery windows like in Total Recall ?
23:00 RyanS Jetpacks!
23:01 anonnumberanon yeah the gravity is so little that jetpacks would be a lot easier to implement
23:01 anonnumberanon with compressed air would be enough
23:02 RyanS yeah, because combustion no worky
23:04 anonnumberanon it works, you have air in a moon base, just not good to release all the burned gases without venting them out i guess
23:07 RyanS I can't wait for this game - http://www.stellarisgame.com/the-game
23:09 anonnumberanon looks pretty
23:11 RyanS i never turn down turn-based or pauseable realtime.... RTS is too fast paced
23:14 anonnumberanon bed time
23:15 RyanS night
23:19 Hyratel anonnumberanon, I mentioned using lava tunnels
23:19 Hyratel estimates put them in multiple km wide
23:19 Hyratel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_lava_tube
23:20 Hyratel ok, 500m wide
23:23 anonnumberanon so the bots would need to fill the holes to make one hermetic then build a high pressure gat to access and a ramp to walk down into the tunnel, provided they are not too far underground
23:24 Hyratel no
23:24 Hyratel you'd use it to reduce the amount of overburden on soft shelled habs
23:24 Hyratel at least to start
23:24 Hyratel the fully pressurised tunnel can come later
23:25 Hyratel fully sealing one is VERY materials intensive
23:25 Hyratel even though it's probably non-porous basalt, there'd still be so many fissures that you'd have to line it completely and that becomes impractical fast
23:25 Hyratel at least in large size ones
23:25 Hyratel now, if you're tlaking like, 10-20 meers wide?
23:26 Hyratel sure
23:28 RyanS I'm designing an RC robot tank/tracked platform using 24v wheelchair gear motors. Anyone built a tracked robot?
23:28 Hyratel not I
23:29 Hyratel but there's some things i can help with, just from principle knowledge
23:29 Hyratel why 24v, specifically?
23:29 Hyratel and trax is something I've investigated on and off for years
23:32 RyanS I'm just going by the fact that wheelchairs are 24v (I also have the proprietary controller which i cant reprogram , its 24v)
23:32 Hyratel yeah you don't need that controller board
23:33 Hyratel what kind of amps are we talking
23:35 RyanS The wheelchair controller is 60-70A. As far as my very limited understanding of current and voltage with dc motors, more voltage = speed, current = torque
23:35 Hyratel inversely proportional
23:35 Hyratel and for single digit Horsepower, 60A*12v is 1HP
23:36 Hyratel what's the motor stall and peak currents?
23:37 Hyratel http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-10-50V-60A-3000W-DC-Motor-Speed-Control-PWM-HHO-RC-Controller-With-Case-/301605051423
23:37 Hyratel the price is right
23:37 RyanS the motors are rated at 10a..... but I have to do the bathroom scale torque test and borrow a clamp meter to get stall & peak
23:38 Hyratel and they have solder-bolstered traces for the high amp areas
23:38 Hyratel wait
23:38 Hyratel the motors are 10A?
23:39 Hyratel that's nothin
23:39 RyanS let me check the label.
23:41 Hyratel because driving motors to 10A is piss-easy
23:42 RyanS 24v, 155w, 370rpm, amps=10, rating = cont
23:42 RyanS but
23:43 Hyratel but?
23:44 RyanS most wheelchair control / motor drivers at 60amp
23:44 RyanS some even 90
23:44 Hyratel so?
23:44 Hyratel that's the maximum handling
23:44 Hyratel that does NOT mean that what they're going to the motor
23:44 Hyratel you push voltage, you pull current
23:46 RyanS hmm, so do i need to test stall current and give myself some headroom ?
23:47 Hyratel wait, the controller I linked is unidirectional
23:47 Hyratel yes
23:51 Hyratel do your motors have e-brakes?
23:52 RyanS yeah, electromagnetic , im going to ditch the brakes
23:53 Hyratel why?
23:56 RyanS Because they use up power (they're normally closed). I was going to gear it down to 3-4kmh and use something like a Sabertooth with regenerative braking
23:56 Hyratel regen is no substitute for brakes if you want to Styay Put
23:58 RyanS How much power would you expect ebrakes to consume, mA or multiple amps?
23:58 Hyratel depends on the weight
23:59 Hyratel you need to get a meter and slowly dial up the power till they release