#robotics Logs

Dec 18 2015

02:13 rue_house "what happened at the robotics meetup was NOT a small biped scirmish, 3 city blocks were leveled people 3 CITY BLOCKS!!!, due to these events, further meetups have been put on hiatus untill we can generate a set of guidelines and rules to keep members under control. 3 CITY BLOCKS WERE FLATTENED!"
02:21 theBear it certainly wasn't small :) but i know all that, when was it ? remember those tiny underpriced (obviously surplus-buy style) fig-8 * maybe 6 or 8 digit vfds at the local shop ? they STILL selling the suckers for under $3 each (under $2 if you go 25+ units :) ) ... they musta bought an ASSLOAD of those things
02:22 theBear tho i suppose everyone else in the country thinks you need the "matching" overpriced controlley chip they got, cos they don't ahve a rue to tell them how to abuse the heck outta things like 7406 chips :)
02:23 rue_house hmm
02:25 theBear ya know, roughly will do... gotta be closer to 10 than none by now ?
02:26 rue_house they are coool, but, what to make them DO!?
02:26 theBear http://testing.fucking.rememberit.com.au/pics/bearhead/webcam.jpg vs http://testing.fucking.rememberit.com.au/pics/bearhead/bearhead%20new2%2017-6-13.jpg notice how all the innocence is gone :-)
02:26 rue_house I keep collecting displays and keyboards AND i DONT KNOW WHY
02:26 theBear on reflection, those pics probly dated
02:28 theBear hmm, 2005 i was in that same house, can't have been there more than 2 or 3 years, maybe ? i dunno, my baseline alcahol intake needs were somewhere higher at that stage in time, not to mention i still smoked funny cigarettes daily.... that's apparently not great for ones memory :)
02:28 theBear rue_house, maybe 'cos you noticed me doing it, and you think i'm a pretty special kinda guy ?
02:28 rue_house nobody I know can remember their past
02:28 theBear course that wouldn't explain why i been collecting them
02:29 rue_house gnight
02:30 theBear rue_house, i remember a painful amount, i got the remember-it-all-regardless-of-intoxication-level curseage... but things like number of years here or there, they're a bit harder to pin down without at least extensive backtracking and thinking up "landmark" events that my memory has dated.... believe it or not, most of my life i haven't really kept track of the date too carefully... not really a big
02:30 theBear thing in most of my various jobs :)
02:30 theBear oh, ok, sleep well :)
03:57 anonnumberanon Yeah..yeah..I'm sorry about that time. Hey I think it was a good thing to have the meet in Detroit, the damages only cost the club $150. I should have been more careful with the timing on those interrupts, the high-power energy density beam flux arm that was on my bot that day wasn't supposed to go off randomly like that.
06:12 anonnumberanon Got a button debounced pretty nicely now.
06:19 Snert which way didju go? hardware or software debouncing?
06:21 anonnumberanon Software debouncing.
06:26 anonnumberanon The button's role is to switch from right leg trims to left leg trims :)
06:27 Snert a test/calibration scenario?
06:30 anonnumberanon Yes. Position adjustment of 5 servos on each of two legs for biped robot. 5 position values coming from 5 potentiometers. Button just sends the positions to whichever leg is pushed at the moment. Gonna add another button. Button one for picking mode (left or right leg), button 2 for being sure the changes we made to the pots are to be sent in real time to the servos. If button 2 is not pressed then the mode will just display the
06:30 anonnumberanon position values.
06:33 Snert there are programmable servos. but they cost a little more.
06:33 Snert maybe even alot more.
06:36 anonnumberanon Just trying to make a good inexpensive robot.
06:39 anonnumberanon i got mg959 to replace those who don't want to follow orders
07:08 anonnumberanon deshipu, are u making a gamepad now? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut-B9PStF0M&t=14m54s
07:14 deshipu anonnumberanon: a little smaller :)
07:21 anonnumberanon Like a PS1 controller?
07:29 deshipu think two psp analog joysticks side by side
07:30 deshipu the size of a matchbox
07:31 anonnumberanon ah i see, something like this http://www.triton-mechanic.com/upload/joystick_radio_remote_control_406861.jpg
07:31 anonnumberanon just kidding
07:44 robotustra Morning
08:09 jhylands deshipu, I think I've found my mammal leg morphology
08:09 deshipu jhylands: do tell
08:09 jhylands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiR61Ecs5JU
08:10 jhylands 3 DOF, very simple, and he is also using AX-12's
08:10 deshipu looks robust
08:11 jhylands yeah, which is a lot more than you can say for a lot of these things
08:12 deshipu the tail is an overkill
08:12 jhylands yep, looks completely useless
08:13 jhylands I think a more substantial tail would help with smoothing out the gait
08:13 jhylands and maybe one more DOF on the neck
08:13 deshipu or a spine servo
08:14 jhylands yeah, although that adds a bunch of complications to the IK
08:14 deshipu but that would really complicate things
08:14 deshipu right
08:14 jhylands I'm going to use a Raspberry pi 2 running Tiny Core Linux
08:15 deshipu you need so much processing power?
08:15 jhylands my brother did a test last night - out of the box it boots to the login prompt in 12 seconds from power
08:15 deshipu are you going to have a camera?
08:15 jhylands yes and yes
08:15 jhylands I'm going to have compression sensors on the feet
08:15 jhylands so I can do adaptive gait processing
08:15 jhylands and its not so much the processing power but the memory I need
08:16 deshipu btw, you can use exactly the same IK code
08:16 deshipu just with a different home position
08:16 jhylands yeah, although the coxas are oriented differently
08:16 deshipu it's basically the spider leg rotated 90°
08:16 jhylands so I need to adjust for that
08:16 jhylands actually, that's a good point
08:17 deshipu just swap x and z
08:17 jhylands interesting
09:09 robotustra tail is a balance
09:10 deshipu jest, but you get better balance by moving the whole body sideways
09:11 deshipu yes*
09:11 robotustra walk good but slow
09:11 anonnumberanon yeah very slow..
09:13 robotustra what controllers does he use?
09:13 robotustra looks like tinsie
09:13 robotustra stm32?
09:13 robotustra tinsy?
09:15 anonnumberanon mbed micros
09:15 anonnumberanon maybe
09:15 anonnumberanon one for moving, other for image processing
09:16 anonnumberanon http://www.electan.com/mbed-arm-cortexm3-lpc1768-mhz-p-3029-en.html
09:16 jhylands yeah
09:16 jhylands he is moving the body sideways, but its not very smooth
09:17 anonnumberanon gait has no variable speed i guess
09:17 jhylands I think the gait needs to be improved, in terms of acceleration
09:17 anonnumberanon just one set speed
09:17 jhylands when you shift balance, it should be done with slow-in/slow-out
09:17 jhylands basically like following a sine curve
09:29 anonnumberanon why can't we have these amazing things for $20? http://www.robotshop.com/en/herkulex-drs-0602-smart-robot-servo.html
09:31 deshipu another thing, why do you need a high-precision servo for simple walking?
09:31 Snert I'd be happy just to buy an openservo board :(
09:32 anonnumberanon Snert, the control system doesn't matter much imo. It's the motor, the case strength and arrangement and at least metal gears.
09:32 jhylands they look like a knock off of an Robotis MX-64T
09:33 Snert we differ on that, but cheers :)
09:33 jhylands and they cost $20 more
09:33 Snert I'd love any good quality servo that I can talk to.
09:34 jhylands AX-12
09:34 anonnumberanon Having a digital board in it doesn't make it tight strong durable.
09:36 anonnumberanon Snert, just email the guy and order boards from him. He is waiting for that before making any I'm sure.
09:37 Snert I may give that a try
09:37 Snert I wanna put them in high quality Hi-Tec servos.
09:37 anonnumberanon What model?
09:38 Snert higher, relatively speaking but not no 200,00 servo
09:38 Snert been too long since to know the model #. about 30bucks each metal gears.
09:39 Snert run them from 6V.
09:39 anonnumberanon so low torque? like between 5 and 8-9 kg.cm
09:40 jhylands Snert, what are you trying to build?
09:41 Snert well, in the end, an arm.
09:41 Snert which isn't a good use for servos I feel.
09:41 jhylands you will want servos that have a back-pivot then
09:41 Snert but in the middle I'll play with a few ideas using regular servos.
09:42 Snert oh no...in the arm would be maybe a pancake planetary stepper.
09:42 Snert for the elbows.
09:43 anonnumberanon omg
09:43 anonnumberanon just adding a capacitor to the switch and the hardware doubouncing coupled with software works amazingly
09:48 onnumberanon may need a reflow oven,
09:48 jhylands not hard to build
09:49 jhylands I have one
09:49 anonnumberanon yeah i was wondering if better to build or buy
09:49 anonnumberanon for high quality reflow jobs
09:49 jhylands http://blog.huv.com/2007/03/reflow-oven.html
09:50 jhylands I do 0.5mm pitch chips no problem
09:50 anonnumberanon can you show pictures of a board done with it?
09:50 jhylands http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cOZlXyNtGpY/Uv6lbOzw49I/AAAAAAAACiA/Xd0ShhYaErU/s1600/IMG_20140214_104058.jpg
09:51 jhylands http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KqWam1OuKaE/VD8cu7lUvSI/AAAAAAAADEY/HnPmb-xAr4o/s1600/IMG_20141015_210841.jpg
09:51 anonnumberanon ok I'm convinced
09:52 anonnumberanon invensense mpu 9150 :)
09:52 jhylands code is here: https://github.com/JonHylands/projects/tree/master/avr/reflow-oven
09:52 anonnumberanon oh awesome
09:53 anonnumberanon cost of parts? you remember?
09:53 jhylands the solid state relay was the most expensive part
09:53 jhylands http://blog.huv.com/2007/03/custom-pcb-for-reflow-oven.html
09:54 anonnumberanon thanks man, god-tier info
09:55 jhylands I've probably built 300+ boards in that oven
09:55 jhylands over the last 8 years
09:56 jhylands if I was doing it again, I'd probably use either MicroPython or a Raspberry pi, with a nice graphical LCD panel
09:56 jhylands but what I have works just fine
09:57 anonnumberanon 16 * 2 is what I started with, kinda nice but it's limited . i have the one with the blue backlight
09:57 jhylands yeah, 16x2 is what I use as well
09:59 jhylands Here's a pic inside the oven: https://app.box.com/s/9al4h4304gexykbt0r555pthhsk1ky7y
09:59 anonnumberanon to its good side, it keeps you focused on the more important parts of the project
09:59 jhylands it has four heating elements, two on top and two on the bottom
09:59 jhylands the key is to find one with a manual temp control dial
09:59 jhylands I have it set to max
10:00 jhylands and use the relay to switch power
10:00 anonnumberanon i mean i can imagine it to be so much fun to start making nice things on the screen that it would completely take your whole focus away from the actual project :)
10:00 jhylands absolutely true, but commercial reflow ovens are really expensive
10:00 robotustra so you guys are doing quadropels?
10:00 jhylands I am, yes
10:00 robotustra quadropeds?
10:00 robotustra and what is the status?
10:01 robotustra walking?
10:01 jhylands blog.huv.com - last 2 posts
10:01 jhylands this would be nice to replace the relay: https://www.adafruit.com/products/268
10:02 robotustra it's like salamander?
10:02 jhylands there are a gazillion web pages describing in minute detail how to build a reflow oven
10:03 jhylands just search diy reflow oven
10:03 robotustra what is the controller? BBB?
10:03 jhylands no, its a custom MicroPython board I designed
10:03 robotustra ok
10:03 jhylands http://store.reflowster.com/products/reflowster
10:03 robotustra what cpu?
10:03 jhylands its a Cortex M4
10:04 jhylands STM32F407
10:04 jhylands oops
10:04 jhylands 405
10:04 anonnumberanon jhylands, yep, that adafruit items seems like a good replacement
10:04 jhylands here's an extended look at Roz walking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q4nsocmLWU
10:04 robotustra what are the specs of the board?
10:04 robotustra Roz - is the name of your quadroped?
10:05 jhylands Roz is the name, yes
10:05 jhylands http://blog.huv.com/2014/01/custom-micropython-board.html
10:05 jhylands that was rev 1 of the board, I'm using rev 2, which is only slightly different
10:06 anonnumberanon these ovens are so cheap it's ridiculous
10:06 anonnumberanon in an euphoric way
10:06 jhylands yeah, mine was definitely under $200 total, including the oven
10:07 robotustra how many servos?
10:07 jhylands 12 for the legs, plus one for the head - I've also added a tail servo, and plan to add another tail servo
10:07 jhylands once I put a new body on it
10:08 robotustra so it means you use more than 1 board?
10:08 jhylands no
10:08 robotustra only 1?
10:08 jhylands AX-12 uses a serial bus
10:08 robotustra ok
10:08 jhylands I can control dozens of servos with one board
10:08 robotustra ok
10:08 anonnumberanon your power supply is separate from that control board?
10:08 jhylands well, AX-12s run off 12 volts
10:08 anonnumberanon I mean the interface (if any) between the lipo and the servos.
10:09 jhylands so no, the 3-cell lipo powers the servos directly
10:09 robotustra jhylands: what is the consumption?
10:09 jhylands not sure, but I have a 5-amp fuse on the servo distribution board, and I've never blown that
10:10 jhylands it runs for 11 minutes on a 1000 mAh battery before I get a voltage reading below 10 volts
10:10 jhylands I think the stall current on the AX-12 is about 900 mA
10:10 jhylands but these servos never get close to stall in this configuration
10:10 robotustra ок
10:11 jhylands This is the new body I'm going to print: http://puu.sh/m0dYf/3039505181.png
10:12 robotustra good
10:12 jhylands here's a reflow kit that was a kickstarter: http://whizoo.com/buy
10:12 deshipu what are those blue pipes?
10:12 jhylands aluminum standoffs
10:12 jhylands 1/4" diameter
10:13 deshipu any particular reason?
10:13 jhylands I needed to move the head forwards so I can rotate the head close to 180 degrees
10:13 robotustra to make body symmetric I guess
10:13 jhylands yeah
10:13 jhylands and its cheaper to use standoffs than print it that way
10:13 jhylands my 3D printer is pretty expensive in terms of material
10:15 Snert why rotate the head - look up?
10:15 deshipu to scan with the distance sensor
10:15 robotustra yeah, I'm printing only necessary parts, other parts do from raw materials
10:16 Snert I was thinking sensors mounted on the top of the body
10:16 deshipu jhylands: have you considered using a TOF sensor instead of that ultrasonic one?
10:16 jhylands no, the rotation is side to side
10:16 jhylands deshipu, I'm planning on using a Lidar-Lite
10:17 jhylands Snert, look at my most recent blog post, I talk about the head scanning
10:17 Snert yaw the head as opposed to rotate I see.
10:17 Snert damn that's a nice looking bot.
10:18 jhylands Thanks
10:19 robotustra jhylands: why do you need so big servos?
10:19 jhylands AX-12's aren't that big
10:20 robotustra which is on the model?
10:20 jhylands AX-12's
10:21 jhylands the legs on the CAD model are identical to the legs on Roz
10:21 jhylands the only real difference is the head and the main body
10:21 robotustra for me 1x2 inch is way too big
10:22 jhylands Well, Roz is about 13" long
10:23 jhylands I just checked - the new body will take 8.5 hours to print
10:24 robotustra I mean is this congiguration - you have not big momentum for the end of leg, so the servo could be smaller
10:25 jhylands I think smaller servos would have a hard time moving Roz at that speed
10:25 robotustra and by making it smaller you could decrease the inercia of whole leg and reduce consumption or increse the speed of walking
10:25 jhylands AX-12's have lots of power
10:25 jhylands 200-ozin of torque
10:26 jhylands but then it would be much more fragile
10:26 robotustra I mean only for the end of the leg
10:26 robotustra you knows better it's just mho
10:26 jhylands well, its a moot point, because I have a lot of AX-12s
10:26 robotustra I got it
10:27 robotustra I'm doing wheeled robot
10:28 robotustra it consumes less
10:28 jhylands yeah, I've done a few of those
10:28 robotustra 15 kg base consume like 20 Watts only
10:30 robotustra https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTr5zi_TA94
10:30 anonnumberanon jhylands, on this one the BATT power comes in at 3.3V? is that what this chip will use? are you regulating the lipo down to 3.3V? using a secondary smaller battery? https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cOZlXyNtGpY/Uv6lbOzw49I/AAAAAAAACiA/Xd0ShhYaErU/s1600/IMG_20140214_104058.jpg
10:31 jhylands yeah, that board is powered with 5 volts, and the small SOT-23 chip in the lower left is a 3.3 volt regulator
10:31 jhylands so I have a large 5 volt switching regulator in the bottom of the main body
10:31 jhylands which converts 12 volts down to 5
10:32 anonnumberanon oh yeah okay
10:32 jhylands the IR sensors require 5 volts to operate
10:32 robotustra do servo run from 12V?
10:32 jhylands yes
10:32 robotustra ok
10:32 anonnumberanon does that SOT-23 get any warm after 10 min use?
10:32 jhylands nope
10:32 jhylands its only converting 5 volts down to 3.3
10:32 anonnumberanon 1.7V * .400 A ?
10:33 jhylands at very low current
10:33 jhylands nowhere near 400 mA
10:33 jhylands the chip only consumes about 50-80 mA
10:33 anonnumberanon oh waw
10:33 jhylands the IR sensors are powered from 5 volts
10:33 anonnumberanon so virtually no power dissipated into heat
10:33 jhylands yeah
10:33 robotustra jhylands: does it build the map of the building?
10:34 jhylands no, I don't really have enough memory onboard for that
10:34 robotustra wifi?
10:34 jhylands I do a single snapshot scan to find an obstacle-free path
10:34 jhylands it doesn't have wifi right now
10:35 jhylands my new dog/cat robot will have a lot more processing power and memory available
10:35 jhylands so I'm saving the fun stuff for that one
10:35 robotustra what is the purpose of this robot?
10:35 anonnumberanon I've been looking into adding ram to micros. Apparently adding ram to AVR is not something that makes sense.
10:35 robotustra just walk around?
10:35 jhylands just to experiment with walking
10:36 anonnumberanon Not sure I just looked it up quickly.
10:36 robotustra ok
10:36 jhylands Roz is pretty simple
10:36 anonnumberanon I mean ram and actual storage.
10:36 jhylands anonnumberanon, I'm not using an AVR, its got a 32 bit ARM
10:36 jhylands I've got a 16 GB uSD card where the code is stored (on the board)
10:36 jhylands but I've only got about 100 KB of available RAM, and I'm currently using half of that
10:37 anonnumberanon jhylands, yes i know but but I'm trying to understand if adding storage and ram to an avr is stupid or not.
10:37 jhylands depends on what its for - its easy to add a uSD logging capability, or an EEPROM/FLASH chip
10:37 jhylands but RAM is a whole different issue
10:38 jhylands AVR uses a harvard architecture, which isn't really set up for lots of RAM
10:38 robotustra yeah, yesterday I started to program edison
10:39 anonnumberanon huuhh. I'll have to look into that in detail. I may need to build a lot of move sequences to store in ram at robot startup. Look up tables. Not sure of my strategy yet. Not sure if should store the sequences or build them all at power up from formulas.
10:39 robotustra run my base from it
10:39 jhylands for that, you'll want EEPROM or FLASH
10:39 jhylands you could read them in as you need them
10:39 robotustra jhylands: how did you program geat?
10:40 robotustra is it parametric or adaptive?
10:40 anonnumberanon This is the main reason why I need a reflow oven.
10:40 jhylands code is all here: https://github.com/JonHylands/roz
10:40 jhylands the gait is straight IK
10:40 robotustra ok
10:42 robotustra hm, I don't know python
10:45 robotustra but I can understand what is the written
10:45 jhylands its pretty simple
10:45 jhylands roz.py is the main module, everything else is driven from that
10:45 robotustra yeah I find already
10:45 jhylands Nuke.py is the IK code
10:47 robotustra there is no optimisation of motion
10:47 jhylands nope, its all very simple
10:47 robotustra ok
10:47 robotustra I'll need more complex IK for arms
10:47 jhylands probably
10:48 jhylands there's an online course you can take that does IK for robot arms
10:48 robotustra I can write all equations myself actually
10:48 robotustra :)
10:48 robotustra it's not complex at all for me
10:49 robotustra more over, I would optimize it by power consumption
10:50 robotustra so it's yet another big task for me
10:51 robotustra and you did a controller for cnc machine?
10:51 jhylands no
10:51 jhylands I put together pieces that other people did
10:52 jhylands I've got an arduino running GRBL, a raspberry pi running serial port json server, and my desktop PC running ChiliPeppr
10:52 robotustra :)
10:52 robotustra what controller do you use to run g-code?
10:52 jhylands ChiliPeppr
10:52 anonnumberanon Today while making my software debouncer I learned to appreciate the use of pseudo-code.
10:52 robotustra I mean software?
10:53 robotustra ok, I didn't know that one
10:53 jhylands http://chilipeppr.com/grbl
10:53 robotustra I run mine form PC
10:53 jhylands my PC is on the other side of my office from my mill
10:54 robotustra Iput dedicated pc :)
10:54 jhylands I don't have room for an extra screen
10:54 robotustra sure
10:55 robotustra I also do not like so much to control cnc mill from usual keyboard
10:56 jhylands I bought a shuttle controller, which plugs into my rpi
10:57 jhylands so for fine movement and adjustment (centering, etc) I can do it from in front of the mill
11:07 robotustra sure
11:07 robotustra why do you need heating control?
11:08 robotustra cure something?
11:08 jhylands heating?
11:09 robotustra I mean temeperature control
11:09 robotustra reflowester
11:10 jhylands you need it to follow the recommended temperature profile for reflowing components
11:10 robotustra ah ok
11:11 robotustra you mean solder/desolder?
11:11 jhylands solder only
11:11 robotustra for BGA?
11:11 jhylands for anything
11:11 robotustra ok
11:11 jhylands surface mount
11:11 robotustra I solder like noob with usual solder station
11:12 robotustra one by one componets :)
11:12 jhylands well, you can't do that with fine pitch surface mount chips
11:12 robotustra there are some triks to solder them, but yes, it could be poor alignment etc
11:13 jhylands well, the real issue comes when you have to do a bunch of them
11:13 robotustra I did 100 pin chip once - I was lucky
11:13 jhylands for example, I designed a simple ammeter in my day job
11:13 robotustra it is
11:13 jhylands and so far, I've built 80 of them
11:13 robotustra sure
11:13 robotustra tooling is the must
11:14 robotustra one day I think I'll need IR soldering station also
11:14 jhylands soldering 0603 resistors and caps by hand is painful
11:14 robotustra true
11:14 jhylands mine isn't IR
11:14 jhylands its just a toaster oven
11:15 deshipu that actually radiates IR too, you know ;)
11:15 robotustra yesterday I resoldered micro usb connector, it was terrible
11:15 jhylands details details deshipu
11:16 robotustra for me yes, everythig heated are IR
11:16 deshipu well, there is also hot air
11:16 deshipu not all heat is transmitted by radio waves
11:16 robotustra wow, what is this? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cUTMq90FtE4/VD8eSDy9uTI/AAAAAAAADEk/UUF-KsGV6UA/s1600/IMG_20141015_212311.jpg
11:17 jhylands that's my nano-submarine
11:17 jhylands NanoSeeker
11:17 robotustra what it seeks?
11:17 deshipu concussion missile
11:17 robotustra yeah looks like missile
11:18 deshipu robotustra: that's beacuse of parallel evolution, I bet
11:18 jhylands here's a video where you can see the actuators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGX4m9Avs6w
11:18 robotustra looks for russian submarines
11:18 jhylands on an older version
11:18 deshipu you know, like how rabbits are similar to rodents
11:18 jhylands and the big one - an in-water test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9qbflEoz1E
11:19 robotustra looks like you use the same motors as I use in my robot eyes
11:19 jhylands I have a larger autonomous sub also - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Y3kVVpLWI
11:20 jhylands Those are solarbotics pager gearmotors
11:21 jhylands the linear actuators are actually hand-made
11:21 robotustra that's what I mean
11:21 jhylands using #2-56 threaded rod, a tiny rare earth magnet, and an analog hall effect sensor
11:24 robotustra you took small motor like this? http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Hs4AAOSwgQ9VuKmR/s-l500.jpg
11:25 jhylands this one: https://solarbotics.com/product/gm15/
11:26 robotustra is it with reductor?
11:27 robotustra planetary ?
11:27 jhylands yes, 25:1 planetary gearbox
11:27 robotustra what is the max RPM?
11:28 jhylands the spec sheet on that page says 920 rpm at 3v
11:29 robotustra can you apply 5v?
11:29 jhylands I run them at 7.2 volts, so yeah
11:30 robotustra shit it's too expensive
11:30 robotustra I need a lot
11:30 jhylands this one is better: https://solarbotics.com/product/gm15a/
11:30 jhylands same price, but a D-shaft on the end
11:52 robotustra the problem is that gearbox is plastic?
11:55 robotustra is the pulley plastic too?
11:55 jhylands yes
11:55 robotustra I need metal ones
11:56 robotustra but I got an Idea I can make my own
12:32 robotustra jhylands: I did my own small reductor, but not so small of cause like this one http://maholet.livejournal.com/29943.html
12:33 jhylands ok
12:33 robotustra 4 mm height
12:37 robotustra and I like not flying creatures than water ones
12:37 robotustra more*
12:37 robotustra and I like more flying creatures than water ones
12:38 robotustra jhylands: http://robotustra.ca/maholet2
12:38 robotustra which are not flying yet :)
12:39 anonnumberanon can i program an stm32f407 like I'd program an avr?
12:40 anonnumberanon like some arm-gcc then armdude, or something? using C?
12:40 anonnumberanon :)
12:43 robotustra like any controller - you upload binary into flash
12:43 robotustra using bootloader or programming tool
12:43 robotustra c should work
12:43 anonnumberanon you don't need those
12:44 anonnumberanon (bootloaders)
12:44 robotustra C is not a problem I guess, the problem is you should study RTOS or fuck with registers yourself
12:45 robotustra We are programming Kinetis now - it's shit pile of framework errors
12:45 jhylands the stm32 chips all come with bootloaders burned into ROM
12:45 robotustra so it's good
12:46 anonnumberanon armcc ...
12:46 robotustra fuck off 1731 pages of manual
12:47 robotustra that's why I do not like arms
12:48 robotustra or 4000+ pages for chip being used for Beaglebone black
12:49 robotustra 30 pages of just revision history
12:49 robotustra wtf?
12:49 anonnumberanon The ones who need the doc are glad it's there.
12:50 Tom_itx good pdf's are searchable
12:50 anonnumberanon atmega168 has 600 pages but not one too many imo
12:51 anonnumberanon it really helps me learn using micros
12:51 robotustra probably, but at the same time - there are a lot of controllers are produced in our days - and if you design a new product - you can spend like 1-2 month of just reading this shit
12:52 Tom_itx so pick one you like and stick with it
12:52 robotustra whilt you will be reading 1 manual - they will make another 2 controllers
12:52 anonnumberanon If you're trained to understand the datasheet of an 8-bit you'd probably know what to look for in the really really large datasheet of arm micros.
12:52 Tom_itx have a chinese girl read it to you in your sleep
12:52 robotustra Tom_itx: this is an old school approach, but what if you need a new feature?
12:52 anonnumberanon lol
12:52 Tom_itx ^^
12:53 Tom_itx then you'll have to spend the time
12:53 robotustra chinise girls are bad in Inglish
12:53 robotustra and are not bad in bed
12:53 Tom_itx the ones that know it speak it fluently though
12:54 Tom_itx bonus
12:54 robotustra reading manuals during the sex
12:54 Tom_itx seems counterproductive on both counts
12:55 robotustra :)
12:56 anonnumberanon stm32f405-407 is only 200 pages
12:57 Tom_itx it was designed for beginners
12:58 robotustra for lazy guys like me
12:58 anonnumberanon Nah lol i don't know about your skill but it's not for lazy people.
12:59 anonnumberanon even the "beginner chip"
13:02 jhylands if you don't want to read data sheets, use something like either Arduino or MicroPython
13:02 jhylands you can get a Teensy which runs arduino stuff on a 32-bit ARM
13:03 robotustra jhylands: added link to your blog to my page
13:04 jhylands cool
13:04 jhylands what's your page?
13:04 robotustra robotustra.ca
13:04 robotustra at the bottom
13:04 theBear or you could get a teensy and run sensible C code on it instead of nasty arduino oo nonsense code :) <grin>
13:05 jhylands sure, but then you have to read the data sheets
13:05 anonnumberanon you have to shit the data reads
13:05 jhylands robotustra, looks pretty russian to me
13:05 jhylands I don't like reading data sheets, so I use MicroPython
13:06 jhylands I personally don't like C or C++
13:07 jhylands robotustra, are you in Canada, or are you using .ca for some other reason?
13:09 robotustra you can't get .ca if you are not canadian
13:09 robotustra I'm in canada
13:09 jhylands I live in SW Ontario
13:09 robotustra I"m in Montreal
13:10 robotustra I write russian and english together, I'm too lazy to make translation on separate page :)
13:10 jhylands heh
13:10 robotustra there is an English translation everywhere
13:11 robotustra so you are native Canadian?
13:11 jhylands yeah
13:12 jhylands well, I was born here
13:12 robotustra ok
13:12 robotustra I came here 5 years ago
13:13 jhylands how do you plan on actuating the arms on your robot? Specifically, the elbow?
13:13 robotustra everything will be human like
13:14 robotustra I'll make a muscle similat in shape to human one
13:14 robotustra similar
13:14 jhylands driven by?
13:14 robotustra electric motors
13:16 jhylands your robot is similar (although a lot bigger and more complex) to one I made a few years ago
13:16 jhylands http://www.huv.com/blog/uploaded_images/BrainBot-Production-758060.jpg
13:17 robotustra wow
13:17 robotustra is it functional?
13:17 jhylands http://www.huv.com/blog/uploaded_images/pic-738609.jpg
13:17 jhylands yeah, it was
13:17 jhylands I built 6 of them
13:17 jhylands under contract
13:18 robotustra does it have videoprocessing?
13:18 jhylands each one had a Core 2 Quad Intel mini-itx onboard
13:18 jhylands and a prosilica gigabit ethernet camera
13:18 jhylands so yes
13:19 robotustra OpenCV?
13:19 jhylands no, the client wanted to use RoboRealm
13:19 jhylands so it was actually running Windows XP
13:19 robotustra ok
13:19 robotustra remote controled?
13:19 jhylands well, you could remote control it
13:20 jhylands but it was designed to be autonomous
13:20 robotustra I would like to work in robotics, but I have no chance in here
13:20 robotustra only hobby
13:20 jhylands for research in grasping and manipulation, vision, speech, etc
13:21 jhylands I had an outdoor version also
13:21 jhylands http://www.huv.com/Brainbot-Crawler-04.jpg
13:21 robotustra my plan is to make mobile intelligent house
13:21 robotustra oh, you did a lot of robots
13:22 jhylands yeah, I've built a lot of robots
13:22 jhylands http://huv.com/miniSumo/
13:22 jhylands http://www.huv.com/roboMagellan/
13:23 jhylands http://www.huv.com/uSeeker/poolTest-20040901/index.html
13:23 robotustra you might have a beard till your knees
13:23 jhylands http://blog.huv.com/2014/01/ucee-with-lid.html
13:24 jhylands heh
13:24 robotustra A LOT
13:24 jhylands I've been doing robotics related stuff since 1997
13:24 robotustra are you doing them yourself?
13:24 jhylands yes
13:24 jhylands you can build a lot of robots in 18 years
13:24 robotustra actually I did a lot but in different area
13:25 robotustra I build violins for 10 years
13:25 jhylands wow, nice
13:25 robotustra and repaired them
13:25 robotustra it was a hobby actually
13:26 robotustra main job was reading lectures in the uni in physics and embedded programming
13:27 robotustra here in Canada I also work as embedded programmer
13:27 jhylands I work for Mozilla
13:28 robotustra may be I could start doing robotics in Belarus, but I could not buy all this stuff easily there
13:28 robotustra I saw it in your blog, you are testing power consumption of mobiles running Mozilla?
13:28 jhylands yeah
13:29 jhylands although we are branching into IoT stuff now, so I'll probably get involved in that
13:29 robotustra not bad
13:30 robotustra iot is rather new direction
13:30 robotustra so I started to do robotics because I developed a concept on AI I want to test
13:31 robotustra to do this I need a platform with a lot of DOF
13:31 robotustra and a lot of sensors
13:31 jhylands I was going to do my big AI experiment with MicroRaptor
13:32 jhylands oh yeah, another one I forgot: http://www.huv.com/blog/uploaded_images/MicroRaptor-17-712629.jpg
13:33 robotustra ok
13:33 jhylands but it turns out AX-12's really don't have enough power to build bipeds with the kind of gaits I was interested in doing
13:33 robotustra you are planing to rebuild it?
13:33 jhylands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOsNJCwrm6Y
13:34 anonnumberanon how much torque do you think you would have needed instead, twice as much?
13:34 jhylands yeah
13:34 robotustra are you using gyro on it?
13:34 jhylands no
13:35 jhylands I was going to, but the ankles would overheat and it would crash
13:35 jhylands all the 12" bipeds you see have a shuffle gait
13:35 jhylands which I think is silly
13:35 anonnumberanon wats shuffle?
13:36 jhylands its where it does a lot of very small steps
13:36 robotustra shuffle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMuJxd2Gpxo
13:39 anonnumberanon I've been looking closely at this to try and understand a bit about what people are doing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct6V8zniL0o
13:39 robotustra https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vg-BdXps50 how biped should walk
13:39 anonnumberanon The large pink robot is the best robot in competitions.
13:39 jhylands exactly
13:40 anonnumberanon those servos are about 130 each, they have 28 kg.cm
13:40 anonnumberanon $130
13:40 jhylands yeah, MicroRaptor would have been awesome with servos that strong
13:41 jhylands which is why I've switched to quadrupeds
13:41 robotustra jhylands: make you own harmonic drive
13:41 robotustra like I did
13:42 jhylands if I was going to do that, I would build series elastic actuators
13:42 jhylands but I don't want to build actuators, for the same reason I don't want to build compilers or such
13:42 robotustra https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POSKD3lSD8E
13:43 robotustra http://i.imgur.com/GbzoJjB.jpg
13:44 robotustra it's very simple and have big torque
13:44 jhylands yeah, those are nice for sure
13:44 robotustra 1:84 reduction
13:44 robotustra now I'm trying to attach outrunner to this reductor
13:45 robotustra http://i.imgur.com/QWllaNF.jpg 5 years in canada
13:46 Snert_ robot rides a bike
13:46 Snert_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqBw7XapJKk
13:46 anonnumberanon i have 2 30kg.cm servos that are $29, they aren't digital (does not seem to be an issue) and do not have special robot hinges (not an issue either) but I have yet to test their precision and/or centering.
13:46 anonnumberanon they are also metal gear and metal case which makes them durable
13:47 jhylands anonnumberanon, link?
13:49 anonnumberanon I powered them and tried to force turn the shaft with a one inch long arm, with my fingers, and they would not bulge, quite impressive holding torque.. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__40285__Turnigy_8482_MG959_V2_Alloy_DG_MG_Servo_30kg_0_15sec_78g.html
13:50 robotustra metal ones?
13:50 anonnumberanon yes
13:50 robotustra anywy I don't like actuators in joints
13:50 jhylands they are nice, but I would have a hard time giving up the advantage of the serial bus and smart devices
13:51 anonnumberanon It does not show well in the picture but the entire sub cases are metal.
13:51 robotustra jhylands: what but is it? i2c?
13:51 robotustra or other?
13:51 jhylands no, its just TTL serial
13:51 theBear heh, short bus
13:51 jhylands running at one megabit speed
13:51 robotustra tx?
13:51 theBear holy crap ! one megabit ain't no shortbus
13:51 jhylands each servo has its own ID
13:52 theBear that's crazy fast for serial, even at ttl levels
13:52 jhylands and you can talk to them individually
13:52 jhylands or you can send broadcast messages to some/all
13:52 theBear heh, tell 'em i said "hi"
13:52 jhylands so I can set all 12 leg servos to their respective positions with one command
13:52 jhylands and they all move at exactly the same time
13:52 anonnumberanon i checked out mx-28 which is metal and 28 kg.cm but they are $220 a piece
13:53 anonnumberanon which makes me very sad
13:53 jhylands yeah
13:53 jhylands if I wasn't budget constrained, I would buy MX-106's
13:53 robotustra for 220$ I can file all gears in you servo maually
13:53 anonnumberanon by the way my program also does that, but with pwms, that is..
13:53 robotustra and solder electronic :)
13:54 anonnumberanon Actually if you could make metal cases for servos, that in itself adds torque..
13:54 anonnumberanon could put the guts of cheap strong plastic case metal gear servos into home made metal cases
13:55 anonnumberanon if the process is repeatable and easy/fast, it's a big win
13:55 jhylands too much work
13:55 robotustra it always break in the weakest point
13:55 anonnumberanon then we add openservo boards to make them like ax-12
13:56 robotustra if I ever make small biped robot I would make my own linear actuators
13:56 robotustra with screws
13:56 robotustra not with gears
13:56 jhylands yeah, if I had a year full time to build a biped, I would definitely build my own SEA's
13:56 robotustra what is SEA?
13:57 jhylands series elastic actuator
13:57 anonnumberanon these have huge force (400 kg) but are too long and big, and are wayyy too slow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnLSE44leyU
13:57 robotustra that's called hobby
13:58 jhylands yeah, definitely too slow
13:58 robotustra real muccles do not contract too much
13:58 anonnumberanon it'd be cool if you could increase the speed by a factor and reduced the strength by that same factor
13:58 robotustra so if to make small lever it could be fast enough
13:59 anonnumberanon like make it lift 50 kg and go 8 times as fast
13:59 robotustra do you know that continuous human power is not more than 300w?
14:00 jhylands http://www.robotshop.com/ca/en/catalogsearch/result/?q=linear+actuators&order=stats_sales_order_count&dir=desc
14:00 robotustra it's a well trained guy
14:00 jhylands there are lots of torque/speed combinations
14:00 robotustra what I find out, that all typical actuators are shit
14:01 robotustra because you should adapt your design to them
14:01 robotustra I go reverse - create actuators according to my ronot's design
14:01 robotustra robot's*
14:02 robotustra I know my needs, can calculate the force and can fabricate this
14:02 robotustra 2-3 times chipper
14:03 robotustra of cause it takes more time but the result is much better finally
14:06 robotustra biceps can contract with 500 kg force
14:08 anonnumberanon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ePEjDiPvOc
14:08 anonnumberanon that mg959 v2 in action
14:13 robotustra good
14:13 robotustra do you know thy there are slots in the mounts in servo?
14:15 anonnumberanon all servos are like that to be able to fit in the rubber grommet that you can use with them for dampened attachment
14:15 jhylands its a fallback to their original purpose, in R/C planes and cars
14:15 jhylands which have engines that vibrate a lot
14:16 robotustra and one more reason - if the device crach -to prevent damage of gears
14:16 robotustra because servo fell out of bushing
14:17 robotustra at the big impact
14:17 robotustra it could save gears
14:18 robotustra but what I see hear - the servo rather destroy model by torque
14:19 anonnumberanon :)
14:19 anonnumberanon I think I'll be very careful of my fingers while testing this monster in my robot's feet.
14:20 robotustra did you attach them already?
14:20 anonnumberanon brb
14:20 robotustra oh, today is friday
14:21 robotustra good start of weekend
14:21 akem2 hey
14:32 robotustra hey nut too late
14:35 robotustra robot's battery is draging on the rloor :)
14:36 robotustra floor*
14:46 anonnumberanon robotustra not the monster servos no
14:47 anonnumberanon right now all the regular ones are installed
14:47 robotustra цщклштп щт цфдлштп фдпщкнерь,
14:47 robotustra working on walking algorythm?
14:48 robotustra anonnumberanon:
14:49 anonnumberanon which have only 13kg.cm
14:51 robotustra not bad
14:57 anonnumberanon walking not yet
14:57 anonnumberanon now im working on algorithm to give servo control variable speed
14:58 robotustra PWM?
14:58 robotustra how do you control them?
15:01 anonnumberanon yes that is the protocol to control a servo
15:02 anonnumberanon pwm tells a servo what angle to reach, but not how fast, and there lies the challenge
15:03 anonnumberanon when you send a position the servo will go for it as fast as it can, the speed is fixed
15:03 anonnumberanon thats why my algo incolves slowing down that speed according to sequence's need
15:04 robotustra lineary?
15:06 anonnumberanon a function with parameters of (position, speed)
15:10 robotustra I would make differently, (position, time)
15:11 robotustra http://i.imgur.com/xIq4Vqd.jpg
15:11 anonnumberanon yeah
15:11 anonnumberanon arrival time
15:11 anonnumberanon same thing
15:13 robotustra for me it's easied to work with time,
15:15 anonnumberanon To decide ill have to let my intuition tell me what i think would be easier to use for sequencing. which is the next step
15:15 anonnumberanon (after making variable speed)
15:15 robotustra ok, I can't protect you from your own mistakes :)
15:18 anonnumberanon you can try, I'll listen
15:21 robotustra pwm use timers
15:22 robotustra I ro home
15:33 anonnumberanon correct
16:29 theBear met a proper-age uni dude last night doing "mechatronics" err, i dunno bachelor or doc or whatever, but if he doesn't keep failing the simple stuff (last week he failed basic unix and c programming unit ffs ! how can you possibly not know that stuff inside out just 'cos err, ya learned it so long ago you don't even remember why :)
16:30 theBear he fell down drunk a bit early (peer pressure, certainly not got the thirst like say, that theBear dude does <grin>) but it sounds like he could be a good dude to know
16:31 eBear starts wondering exactly what kinda fancy gear the "mechatronics" labs at a fancy internationally respected university might
16:31 theBear oh damn, he's the only not-text person that i ever heard say arduino, and i forgot to listen to how yer sposed to say it, god forbid you ever need to actually use the term
16:31 eBear slaps forhead over and
16:31 theBear stupid stupid stupid
16:32 theBear hehe nah, that ain't my style, self abuse, plus ya know, i know, everyone knows, theBear is super-awesome, A #1 style ! there's no denying it !~
16:37 Tom_itx you say it 'arduino'
16:37 Tom_itx :D
16:55 Loshki arr-doo-wee-no
17:08 anonnumberanon i pronounce it Avee-Ahrr
18:17 theBear anonnumberanon, heh, and your parrot, how does it pronounce it when it echoes you saying that ?
18:18 theBear avy-AHH avy-AHH
18:18 eBear gets a funny image in his
18:18 theBear hehe i like it
18:19 theBear Loshki, you sure that's how other people say it tho ? few words over the years, hysteresis is a less stupid/annoying word that qualifies, that i read and typed and thinked a billion times, but been surprised as hell when i finally hear someone else say it, often someone quite sure they are right and the way it sounded in my head all those years is wrong
18:21 theBear i suspect it was more ard-wino he said... and i don't care if it is sposed to be italian, i growed up with italian conversation everywhich way, used to speak like some kinda euro-speaking-ninja dude when i was much younger, you know, before i forgot it all, and i just can't see how arduino would be pronounced/sound right in italian
18:50 robotustra_ jhylands: are you here?
19:09 Loshki theBear: we can ask alesan when he comes back on line
19:10 robotustra_ so, the concept works, I can connect 4 arduino to edison via usb
19:10 Loshki Also, "The best part of the esp8266 is the lack of Italians begging for tribute for their intellectual property" -- F on hackaday
19:12 robotustra_ ha ha
20:31 peepsalot i'm trying to CAD model various bits of hardware. i always have a hard time trying to figure out what standard something would even be covered by, and what the dimensional specs are for the standard
20:31 robotustra_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JenJEQxVlSM
20:31 peepsalot for example, right now i'm just curious about the various philips head drive shape
20:31 robotustra_ google it
20:32 peepsalot i am
20:35 robotustra_ so if you didn't fing sizes we cann't help you either
20:36 Snert hit a hardware screw/bolt website
20:36 robotustra_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uiPHL-xey4
20:37 Snert thats the smoothest walking robot I ever saw
20:38 robotustra_ it is
20:38 robotustra_ the robot with the best coordination
20:49 robotustra_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCT_-xBNXFA
20:53 Hyratel hey, has Rue been around lately?
20:54 robotustra_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmoDLyiQYKw
21:29 rue_shop3 no
21:29 rue_shop3 why you looking for HIM?
21:40 robotustra_ he wanted to give him some money
23:12 Hyratel rue_shop3, I was wonderign if you'd considrered the idea of using a phosphor screen separate from high power LEDs
23:13 Hyratel use a small phosphor screen and converge a hella amount of blue/UV onto it
23:24 fleshtheworld alright iv been extra extra extra busy. You guys know a good robot kit to inspire someone who is looking forward to making articulate and agile robots?
23:25 fleshtheworld ^inspire and give good creative ideas for future reference
23:25 fleshtheworld nothing over $1,000
23:29 Hyratel http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/94519-104-atomic-age-nuclear-propulsion-red-hot-radiators/#post1629446