#robotics Logs
Nov 07 2015
#robotics Calendar
10:35 ace4016 why do you ask?
10:40 choonway i recommend using onshape instead. https://www.onshape.com/
10:41 ace4016 hrm, shitty web design...
10:41 choonway unless you're building a complex system with lots of integration, then you'll need CATIA
10:42 choonway https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHhVGUIfS8Q
10:42 choonway the good thing is that you can create parts / assemblies on your android / iphone
10:43 ace4016 that doesn't seem appealing to me at all
10:43 choonway what do you use?
10:43 ace4016 i hate doing almost anything on a tablet
10:43 ace4016 much less a phone
10:43 ace4016 for CAD?
10:44 choonway yeah
10:44 ace4016 depends what i can get my hands on; at work i've used SolidEdge. i've used SolidWorks in school, and I've used AutoCAD and Inventor at home. and Alibre before they changed name
10:46 choonway you have any experience with CAM packages like mastercam?
10:46 ace4016 nope. sadly
10:46 ace4016 never needed CAM as i've mainly done electrical stuff
10:47 ace4016 afaik, not too many cable harness CAM driven machines, or circuit printers that didn't take the files out of like Eagle or so
10:51 choonway i'm still waiting for an integrated CAD package that combines the software, electronics and mechanical systems and simulates them
10:51 ace4016 is OnShape a parametric like Alibre/Solidworks/soldedge/inventor?
10:52 choonway yes
10:52 ace4016 hrm, works in a browser eh?
10:53 ace4016 so what's the advantage over "traditional" CAD programs? CAM capabilities?
10:54 choonway there's no CAM capabilities in onshape... there is in CATIA though
10:54 choonway CATIA and Solidworks are from dassault systemes.
10:55 choonway onshape is more similar to solidworks in capability
10:55 ace4016 hrm...
10:55 ace4016 is it cheaper? :P
10:56 choonway onshape is free...
10:56 ace4016 ah
10:56 choonway it's model is like github
10:57 choonway limited private repositories
10:57 choonway but unlimited public ones
10:57 LiohAu ace4016: I was looking for someone that can help me with the "costing" feature in solidworks
10:57 choonway rofl
10:57 LiohAu I found how to assign a price on a part. But I didn't find how to assign a price based on a quantity (and that changes a lot of thing ^^).
10:58 ace4016 hrm...
11:00 ace4016 i've never used the costing features
11:02 e4016 pockets the OnShape
11:16 LiohAu choonway: well OnShape focus on design of parts
11:16 LiohAu it does not seem to provide the ecosystem around
11:17 LiohAu like simulation tools for instance. Am I wrong?
11:25 ace4016 yea, doesn't seem to support sim stuff
11:31 choonway https://youtu.be/4MI0ksOoub4?t=1m32s
11:31 choonway watch this
11:31 choonway what kind of simulation? kinematic? dynamic? finite element?
11:33 choonway as far as i know, you can do limited forms of kinematic simulation in onshape
11:33 choonway if you're talking about ecosystem, nothing beats CATIA. :P
11:35 choonway but if you compare free stuff (not freedom) it sure beats freecad, sketchup
11:59 rue_house concurrent editing, they laughed me out for that idea
12:05 rue_house I was too inexperienced to know thats what people do to good ideas
12:05 rue_house and to this day, the code for my concurrent editor lies unfinished
12:06 rue_house mostly because of stupid limitations, like the fact that all the textbox elements that exist are limited to 1 cursor
12:06 rue_house so the code had to be ground up, and thats a lot of ground
12:11 rue_house so remember kids, if everyone laughs at your idea and calls it stupid, in 3 years someone will be making a pile of money off it.
12:11 rue_house /might as well be you!/
12:32 Hyratel that's honestly a good lesson
16:41 adam789654123 hello robotics
16:42 adam789654123 what are the natives working on today?
16:43 deshipu playing chainsaw warrior
16:44 adam789654123 well.... if you lose then you cant type
16:44 adam789654123 what good is that?
16:44 deshipu fortunately we don't need no stinkin types in Python ;)
16:44 adam789654123 hmmm....
16:45 adam789654123 i kinda forgot about that
16:45 adam789654123 types are optional, or is there like a generic type
16:45 deshipu actually python is strictly typed
16:45 deshipu but the types are attached to values, not to variables
16:46 deshipu so the same variable can point to values of different types throught the life of a program
16:46 adam789654123 oh
16:46 adam789654123 interesting
16:46 deshipu it's called "dynamic typing"
16:46 deshipu js, lua, ruby and perl have that too
16:46 adam789654123 haha, i was just talking about "dynamic scoping"
16:46 adam789654123 thats funny
17:42 Anniepoo putting an ancient chinese milling machine back in operation
17:42 adam789654123 haha
17:42 adam789654123 nice
17:42 Anniepoo working on an online CAD editor
17:43 Anniepoo (the milling machine is occasional anti-boredom entertainment)
17:43 Anniepoo talking with a potential investor
17:44 adam789654123 really
17:44 adam789654123 who wants to invest?
17:44 Anniepoo yup
17:44 adam789654123 and into what?
17:44 adam789654123 i mean.... you dont have to be too specific
17:44 adam789654123 ;)
17:44 adam789654123 but im interested
17:45 Anniepoo well, we're starting a company to put various industrial processes online, using intelligent editors on the front
17:45 Anniepoo so we're assured that what you specify, we can actually make
17:46 Anniepoo we're using a boutique model - more about a class of things to make than about the process
17:46 Anniepoo our 'pilot plant' is going to do laser cutting for model railroaders.
17:47 slidercrank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2lNMic_fk
17:47 slidercrank Side-Stepping of the Triple Pendulum on a Cart
17:47 Anniepoo but soon behind that we'll be putting other nifty stuff (eg CNC lathes, mills) online as well
17:48 adam789654123 im on the terminal
17:48 adam789654123 sorry
17:48 adam789654123 but it sounds facinating
17:48 adam789654123 way beyond the online interface plans that i was thinking about as of late
17:48 Anniepoo 8cD
17:49 Anniepoo the project was started by a bunch of logic programmers - we're well equipped to deal with design rules
17:51 adam789654123 that sounds awsome
17:51 adam789654123 are you doing some kind of online cad thing?
17:51 Anniepoo yes
17:52 adam789654123 the idea is great
17:52 adam789654123 and if you can implement it well, i think you will have a successfull business
17:53 adam789654123 Anniepoo: I just had an idea
17:53 Anniepoo it's basically an online CAD editor, but it 'knows' the design rules, and won't let you make stuff like trying to make wire by machining down from rod with no support
17:53 Anniepoo what's that?
17:54 adam789654123 What about a program that put CAD design contracts online
17:54 adam789654123 or design contracts generally
17:54 adam789654123 something like, willing to pay for X
17:54 Anniepoo there are already such services
17:54 adam789654123 yeah
17:55 adam789654123 its such an obvious idea, why not
17:58 adam789654123 but in this case, you will actually be making the parts
17:58 adam789654123 so that gives you sort of a special edge i guess
17:58 Anniepoo the problem is that nobody puts the pieces together. If you understand enough about how to run a lathe to design turned parts, you probably already own a lathe.
17:58 adam789654123 maybe
17:58 adam789654123 then again, its out of the question for me now
17:59 adam789654123 yet, i never really did the specifications either
17:59 adam789654123 but i would actually prefer to send the specifications out
17:59 Anniepoo but imagine hobbyist robot builder - understands what they want
17:59 adam789654123 because of my limited resources
17:59 Anniepoo right
17:59 adam789654123 i dont want a lathe so i can make the occational part that i need
17:59 adam789654123 that would be *way* overkill
18:00 Anniepoo right
18:00 adam789654123 but yet, people have to be educated enough to use the service
18:00 adam789654123 so its a tricky thing there
18:00 Anniepoo no, that's the smart part
18:00 Anniepoo 8cD
18:00 adam789654123 oh
18:00 adam789654123 ok
18:00 adam789654123 ill look it up
18:00 Anniepoo there's a bit of 'not so smart' AI in there.
18:01 Anniepoo now, you CAN design a part that isn't fit for it's function on our system
18:01 Anniepoo but that's usually not what hangs people up
18:01 adam789654123 a question is, how do you make specification as simple as possible
18:01 adam789654123 thats the "gold standard" i think
18:02 adam789654123 if a gear is broken for example, how to you make specification for a replacement as simple as possible?
18:04 Anniepoo well, our solution would be to have a 'make a gear' site where you tell us how big the gear is, how many teeth it has, etc.
18:05 adam789654123 ah
18:05 Anniepoo but honestly, I doubt we'd do gears - making cheap gears is easy, but making good ones is really hard
18:05 adam789654123 there are so many different qualities and kinds of gears, but i was thinking about simplest ones
18:06 Anniepoo and we have design rules so if you ask for 72 diametral pitch and want a 24" dia gear 3" wide of hardened steel, we'll flag that
18:06 adam789654123 ever think about manufacturing parts for machines that are already in circulation?
18:06 Anniepoo right - and we don't make everything.
18:06 adam789654123 is there any money in that?
18:06 Anniepoo nope
18:06 adam789654123 is there any money in that?
18:06 adam789654123 do you think?
18:06 Anniepoo that's a commodity business
18:06 adam789654123 which implies what?
18:07 Anniepoo China
18:07 adam789654123 haha
18:07 adam789654123 ok
18:07 adam789654123 isnt chinese labor cost going up though?
18:07 adam789654123 ive heard this
18:07 Anniepoo doesn't matter
18:08 adam789654123 because of patent law?
18:08 Anniepoo industry flows to the cheap labor spot and stays awhile after labor costs go up, then moves on.
18:08 adam789654123 ah... i see
18:08 Anniepoo 8cD So, want to invest?
18:08 adam789654123 i guess its the most obvious thing that is required
18:08 adam789654123 money? i have very little
18:08 Anniepoo yes, money
18:09 adam789654123 i have like a hundred and fifty dollars to my name
18:09 Anniepoo 8c/
18:09 adam789654123 not exacly investemnt capital
18:09 Anniepoo yes, I think the gov't wants you to have more than $200K/yr income to be accredited
18:10 adam789654123 hmmm....
18:10 adam789654123 well.... im not in the negative anyway
18:10 adam789654123 :D
18:10 Anniepoo that law's in place to prevent crooks from taking grampa's money
18:10 adam789654123 how does that work?
18:10 adam789654123 if you dont mind getting into it
18:10 adam789654123 i have so many questions about your business though
18:10 adam789654123 :D
18:11 adam789654123 or what you do, your interest
18:11 Anniepoo well, if there were no law, people who had no business investing in a startup, particularly a seed stage startup,
18:11 Anniepoo might be tempted to do so.
18:11 adam789654123 ahhh
18:11 adam789654123 very interesting
18:11 Anniepoo 60% of all startups fail
18:11 adam789654123 yeah
18:12 Anniepoo a VC firm invests in about 20 companies
18:12 adam789654123 oh
18:12 Anniepoo 12 never make a pennie
18:12 adam789654123 i understand the basics of the math
18:12 adam789654123 insofar as you just need the others to more than compensate for any loss
18:12 Anniepoo 4 barely make the money back, or never do
18:12 Anniepoo right, it's a pareto distribution
18:13 Anniepoo the other 2 companies become large companies -
18:13 adam789654123 its interesting though, as i havent really thought about this much
18:13 adam789654123 my idea was do go commando style
18:13 adam789654123 (im not talking about underwear)
18:13 Anniepoo shoot up a post office? =8cO
18:13 adam789654123 haha
18:14 adam789654123 maybe build up a network of associates and slowly build up a customer base
18:14 adam789654123 and a reputation
18:14 Anniepoo well, you're talking about starting a small business
18:14 adam789654123 actually, i would expect the network of associates to be the result of the customer base
18:14 adam789654123 yes
18:14 Anniepoo which is something that startup madness has driven off the radar
18:14 adam789654123 but i have no idea on how to invest capital
18:14 Anniepoo but is a better idea for many people
18:15 Anniepoo then don't do it
18:15 adam789654123 exactly
18:15 adam789654123 my best idea is to start small and use the rapid prototyping paradigm
18:15 Anniepoo suggestion - you could decide on a business that you think you'd like to own,
18:15 adam789654123 target individual problems when they are hot
18:16 Anniepoo say a coffee house - and then get a job in one, preferably with an owner who'se a decent sort.
18:16 adam789654123 give prototype examples of solutions, and exchange money for services
18:16 adam789654123 ok
18:17 Anniepoo well, every business involves adding value for money
18:17 adam789654123 yes
18:17 adam789654123 i agree, that is the proper way
18:17 Anniepoo it's the only way
18:17 adam789654123 that is what inspires me
18:17 adam789654123 well.... some people are scam artists
18:17 adam789654123 for example
18:18 adam789654123 and i bet a number of them do well
18:18 adam789654123 considering the stupid sh*t i hear people fall for
18:18 Anniepoo which means businesses are NOT about what you're interested in
18:18 Anniepoo they're about what your customers are interested in
18:18 adam789654123 well.... not me, btw
18:18 adam789654123 i see
18:18 adam789654123 i kind of think of it 50/50
18:19 adam789654123 my skills are motivated by my interests
18:19 Anniepoo making toilet paper is a pretty guaranteed sale
18:19 adam789654123 haha
18:19 adam789654123 i understand
18:19 Anniepoo and sure, if you want to start making toilet paper, you need a few expensive items like a digester tower and national marketing syndicate
18:19 adam789654123 yet i dont see a benefit to not being interested in my line of business
18:20 adam789654123 so there is that sort of self motivating factor
18:20 Anniepoo no, and not being interested can be a killer
18:20 Anniepoo but waaaay too many people start thinking about a business as 'what would be fun for me to do'
18:20 adam789654123 thats why im thinking there is this 50/50 = my_interest/customer_interest
18:20 adam789654123 i think in part i am motivated by that, yes
18:21 adam789654123 maybe im naive in this
18:21 adam789654123 but it motivates me
18:21 Anniepoo well, if you're into board games you probably know more about them than somebody who hates them, and usually
18:21 Anniepoo if you're into something, so are others, and you can indeed make a living running a game shop
18:22 adam789654123 i thought general information processing, then learn what seems obviously better ways to go about it with experience
18:22 Anniepoo but you can't only be into BlahWorld 3.5 or think running such a shop involves playing lots of it
18:22 adam789654123 haha
18:22 adam789654123 right
18:23 adam789654123 im actually interesting in working with people to solve problems they have
18:23 adam789654123 or to help facilitate desirable outcomes
18:23 Anniepoo running a shop involves cleaning the place, doing lots of ordering, and similar stuff that's no different for a Hallmark Card shop
18:23 adam789654123 yeah
18:23 adam789654123 i completely agree
18:23 Anniepoo yes, I think you'll need a clearer vision than that
18:23 adam789654123 no big egos allowed
18:24 adam789654123 big enough to own a business, big enough to sweep the floor
18:24 adam789654123 at least thats my simple way of thinking about it
18:24 Anniepoo If you enjoy talking with attorneys and CPA's and begging for money, start a startup
18:24 adam789654123 haha..... i *hate* dealing with that kind of stuff
18:24 adam789654123 at least now
18:25 adam789654123 if i was studying law, it could be interesting
18:25 adam789654123 but not as a distraction to something else im working on
18:26 Anniepoo yah, well, a business is a mass of pretty mundane stuff
18:26 adam789654123 i agree
18:26 Anniepoo and once you start you can't quit
18:26 adam789654123 i think thats why there has to be something fun about it
18:26 adam789654123 because it is..... just business
18:26 Anniepoo anyway, I need to concenttrate on toher stuff
18:26 Anniepoo nice hatting
18:27 adam789654123 but there has to be the personally motivating factor
18:27 Anniepoo and nice chatting too
18:27 adam789654123 thank you much!
18:27 niepoo tips her
18:27 adam789654123 i do hope to meet you again hear some time
18:27 adam789654123 be well!
18:27 adam789654123 :D
20:45 anonnumberanon Would this help me make my robot move and stand straight? http://blog.oscarliang.net/inverse-kinematics-and-trigonometry-basics/
20:47 adam789654123 "Inverse kinematics is the opposite of forward kinematics. This is when you have a desired end effector position, but need to know the joint angles required to
20:47 adam789654123 achieve it. This is harder than FK, and there could be more than one solution. "
20:47 adam789654123 thats interesting
20:48 adam789654123 just off the the hip, im considering a servo distributed approach
20:49 anonnumberanon what's that?
20:49 adam789654123 where each relevant servo contributes some proportional amount of the work to get to X
20:51 adam789654123 i still like the balance transducer idea so much, that i would want to start with that as a fundamental compontent to explore
20:51 adam789654123 just my way of thinking about the problem
20:52 adam789654123 or some sort of force tranducer i guess
20:52 adam789654123 id have to think about it more
20:52 adam789654123 maybe study mechanics
20:53 adam789654123 anonnumberanon: consider this sumproblem
20:53 adam789654123 subproblem*
20:54 adam789654123 you have a semicircle with a robotic pivot attached to the flat side of it such that it would easily tople over
20:55 adam789654123 or consider an arm extending from the flat side of the semicircle
20:55 adam789654123 that could move in any direction
20:56 adam789654123 what kind of movements could you get this device to make based on a feedback mechanism of balancing momentum
20:56 adam789654123 it could swing back and forth
20:56 adam789654123 in circles
20:57 adam789654123 it could move in so many different ways
20:58 adam789654123 but im thinking ideally, you would want to be programming concerning the relationship of forces
20:58 adam789654123 for example, if you push it in another way, it should quickly recover to the original movement
20:59 adam789654123 this is a way of robotically exploring balance
20:59 adam789654123 make any sense?
20:59 anonnumberanon Yes.
20:59 adam789654123 that sounds like a fun project
21:01 adam789654123 it would also make a cool youtube video
21:01 adam789654123 :D
21:01 adam789654123 it would seem like it was alive
21:01 adam789654123 if it could recover itself
21:02 adam789654123 for example, imagine it neurtalizing the momentum of a push to get back to the original movement
21:03 adam789654123 or, imagine having a function that caused it to neutralize all momentum
21:03 anonnumberanon yeah with an accelerometer?
21:03 adam789654123 i dont know
21:03 adam789654123 the more i talk about it, the more i want to build one
21:03 adam789654123 XD
21:03 anonnumberanon start with a quadcopter maybe
21:03 anonnumberanon it does that
21:04 adam789654123 hmmmm......
21:04 adam789654123 interesting
21:04 anonnumberanon the push is not a push though, it's just if a side of the quad goes up more, the controller sends that motor less speed
21:04 anonnumberanon It's all determined by the accelerometer's XYZ.
21:05 adam789654123 i was thinking, if you could learn to deal with such in a minimalistic enviroment, you could translate what you learn to say, a walking robot
21:05 adam789654123 lets say you push the robot, and it tries neutralized the momentum as it stays balanced
21:06 anonnumberanon yeah I have done a quad so i know to calculate the PID very fast at a constant rate, I'd probably need the same for the robot.
21:06 anonnumberanon do you want to see a video of exactly this?
21:06 adam789654123 yes
21:06 adam789654123 i am on termianl now
21:06 adam789654123 but ill save the link
21:06 adam789654123 i have to install windowing system on my comp yet
21:07 anonnumberanon any of his videos are pure gold, he is at the state of the art of this stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h6klEmMmQU
21:07 adam789654123 or part of the procedure is to neutralize momentum that is not expected within the movement
21:07 anonnumberanon made in Japan
21:07 adam789654123 thanks
21:08 adam789654123 i can watch later, ill fire up a bootable distro
21:08 adam789654123 with windowing manager pre-installed
21:08 adam789654123 a cd-distro
21:08 adam789654123 i mean
21:08 anonnumberanon that vid is VERY impressive, hurry
21:08 adam789654123 haha
21:08 adam789654123 i have to shut down first
21:09 adam789654123 and i dont want to because ive got stuff going on
21:09 onnumberanon hits adam789654123 's bu
21:09 adam789654123 haha
21:09 adam789654123 :D
21:09 adam789654123 i will watch soon
21:09 adam789654123 whenever i boot up my live cd
21:10 adam789654123 probably later tonight
21:13 anonnumberanon why don't you have a graphical environment
21:14 adam789654123 i havent installed it
21:14 adam789654123 it hasnt been that important to me recently
21:15 adam789654123 im working through the terminal is enough for me
21:17 adam789654123 i just realized that if you have a rod that spins, and an arm off that rod than pivots, you could theoreticaly do all of the movement you need to play with momentum and balance
21:17 adam789654123 but it might even be simpler to start in 2 dimensions
21:18 adam789654123 maybe with some kind of linkage
21:18 adam789654123 so like, a rod that can swing in only a two dimenstional plane
21:19 adam789654123 and maybe an arm that can swing back and forth and remained balanced
21:21 adam789654123 i guess, just like a 2D lingage, where the second link is robotic
21:21 adam789654123 could you keep the first arm standing?
21:21 adam789654123 within some controlled momentum?
21:22 anonnumberanon Yeah, man. Most likely.
21:22 adam789654123 the more agitated the momentum, the quicker the thing would appear to move
22:40 mbrumlow I added a dart gun! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0gdi_lxjr0
22:40 mbrumlow its currently off line, but it will be on line while at work.
22:40 mbrumlow Monday that is
22:48 adam789654123 terminal mode
23:07 anonnumberanon mbrumlow, I can't wait till Monday.
23:07 anonnumberanon Make sure I can aim.