#robotics Logs

Oct 29 2015

09:44 rue_house hey
09:45 Xerrass short question i need a acurate max 1cm diversion position location system curetly i will try out 433mhz and triangulation with 4-x angles
09:45 Xerrass is there a esyer way ?
09:46 rue_house yea
09:46 Xerrass i was told ATZB-X-233-XPRO and Decawave Limited DWM1000 will be beter
09:46 Xerrass i realy dont have a clue is there a cheap way to do it ultrasonic is not posibal
09:47 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/abspos/position_scanner.html
09:47 rue_house throw a few beacons around and your happening
09:47 rue_house I have the code for it now
09:47 rue_house and it works
09:49 Xerrass hmm so you are taking a laserscanner ?
09:49 Xerrass if im right ?
09:49 rue_house sorta
09:49 Xerrass how acurate is it ?
09:49 rue_house the laser just triggers the beacons, so you know what angle your at
09:49 rue_house depends on how good you get the angle to the beacons
09:50 rue_house and how far your beacons are spaced
09:50 Xerrass hmm beacon has to be on the right hight
09:50 Xerrass actualy will you take this module on the moving part or will it stationary ?
09:50 rue_house I'v not written the bit that takes an array of beacons and works out the best 3 for a position
09:51 rue_house that goes ont he robot
09:51 rue_house gtg, back in 9 hours
09:51 Xerrass hmm its to big
09:52 Xerrass i need the space for something else
09:52 Xerrass the transciever is smaller
09:52 rue_house good luck with rf positioning
09:52 rue_house tell me how it goes
09:52 deshipu Xerrass: the easiest way is to have a marker on the robot and a webcam on the ceiling
09:53 Xerrass yeah but this will not work if its dark
09:53 deshipu Xerrass: it will if the marker is a blinking led
09:53 deshipu Xerrass: may be IR
09:54 deshipu you can think about it as a very short-wave RF positioning system ;)
09:55 Xerrass hmm i dont know is ir evected by solarstorms and such things ?
09:55 deshipu evected?
09:55 deshipu evicted?
09:55 Xerrass i have to create a very reliabal sytem that have to work "everywhere"
09:56 Xerrass Effected
09:56 deshipu affected?
09:56 deshipu well, sure, that's why you make the LED blink with a specific pattern
09:56 Xerrass influenced
09:57 Xerrass what is with obstacals ? i havent thought of this jet
09:58 deshipu no idea, can you be more precise?
09:58 Xerrass ok
10:00 Xerrass so lets say you are on a field and you place the "base" the robots inside will automaticly start to setup rf recieverst and note theur location so what if now they buildsometing inbetwwn so lets say a wall is then betwen transmitter and reciever
10:00 Xerrass it will not work right ?
10:01 deshipu wait a moment, it's really hard to parse what you are typing
10:02 Xerrass i know lets try to explain it better
10:02 deshipu I'm not a native speaker and I have to read each word out loud to guess what word they were supposed to be originally
10:02 Xerrass ^^
10:02 deshipu let's start at the beginning
10:02 deshipu what are you trying to do?
10:03 deshipu what do you need that position for?
10:03 Xerrass i need a location
10:03 Xerrass very precize
10:03 deshipu what for?
10:03 Xerrass for land and it will be good if the same system can handle air vehicles aswell
10:04 Xerrass and precise mean +-0.5cm
10:04 deshipu what are your robots going to do with the positions, once they have them?
10:04 Xerrass nothing the comand server will do stuf with it
10:04 Xerrass commands for driving and so on
10:05 deshipu ok, and the command server needs the precise locations, because?
10:06 Xerrass what if it runs it into something
10:06 Xerrass or into other robots
10:06 Xerrass there wil be a 3d model created by whatever
10:07 Xerrass so the robot will be just a drone
10:07 Xerrass nearly no logic onboard
10:07 deshipu ok, but to not run into something you don't need precise global location, all you need is the distance to the obstacle
10:08 deshipu same with coordinating with other robots -- you don't need precise global locations, just relative positions
10:08 Xerrass not exactly but i think it wil be more complicated and the robots have to do mor stuf on its one taking more bettery usage ...
10:09 deshipu I'm saying that, because getting precise global location outdoors is very difficult and expensive, not to mention slow'
10:09 Xerrass yeah im lerning this cuerntly
10:09 deshipu if there was a simple solution, we would all be using it
10:10 Xerrass but lets say you have an open field and the robots have to transport sand to different locations
10:10 Xerrass they shoud use predefined "roeads"
10:10 Xerrass for getting near a location
10:11 Xerrass and many things have to be tracked if a robot dropes something somewhere the location has to be stored on the master
10:11 Xerrass so no other robo will run into it
10:13 deshipu maybe that's why we don't have fully automatic building construction yet, hmm?
10:13 Xerrass yeah this is actaly part of what im working on
10:13 deshipu in the laboratories, they use something called "motion capture system", which is also used in making games and movies
10:13 deshipu but that
10:14 deshipu but that's quite expensive and confined to one room
10:14 Xerrass it has to be highly skalabal
10:14 deshipu well, good luck :)
10:14 deshipu you might win w nobel if you succeed
10:16 Xerrass the idea is if you take it to a small lvl droping a radio reciever every lets say 5 meters in a grid note all the positions and get a working transmitter on the robot
10:16 Xerrass the system shoud get a ore or less higly acurat position or not ?
10:16 Xerrass *more ore less
10:17 deshipu Xerrass: https://hackaday.io/project/4872-subpos-positioning-system
10:18 deshipu and dozens similar projects
10:18 deshipu but none has the accuracy you want
10:18 Xerrass ^^
10:19 deshipu the new roomba has a pretty cool system
10:19 Xerrass roomba ?
10:19 deshipu it has a camera that points up, and some nifty image processing algorithms that figure out the geometry of things it sees and its relative positions to them
10:20 deshipu then it builds a map of them
10:20 Xerrass hmm will not work i think
10:20 deshipu roomba is a robotic vacuum cleaner
10:20 Xerrass because my underground is not flat i have only the starts above or a blue sky
10:21 Xerrass *Stars
10:21 deshipu you could have poles with lights on them
10:22 deshipu each blinking its own coordinates
10:23 Xerrass but this will be nearly unvisibal @ daylight didn't it ?
10:24 Xerrass deshipu, what is your native language ?
10:24 deshipu Polish
10:24 Xerrass ok how about german ?
10:24 Xerrass its not that far ? ^^
10:24 deshipu I'm learning, but I'm at the beginner level
10:24 Xerrass ok
10:24 deshipu we just started with perfect
10:24 Xerrass ^^
10:25 deshipu good thing swiss german doesn't use other tenses :P
10:25 Xerrass treu
10:25 Xerrass *true
10:27 deshipu hmm, so how about poles with down-pointing cameras?
10:27 deshipu with wide-angle lens they could have large coverage
10:27 deshipu and blinking markers on the robots
10:28 deshipu of course you would need to place the cameras in such a way, that the robots always have a line of sight to at least one
10:28 Xerrass hmm
10:29 Xerrass posibal
10:29 Xerrass hmm what resulution did this camaras have to be
10:30 deshipu depends on how accurate you need it and how densely they are placed
10:30 Xerrass lets say they are 2 meters above the ground
10:30 Xerrass robot hihgt is up to 20 cm
10:30 Xerrass and the robot is max 5 meters away from atleast 3 angles
10:31 deshipu if it's seen by multiple cameras, you get better accuracy too
10:31 Xerrass will tis result in a location acurat for under a cm
10:31 Xerrass so atleast seen by 3 cameras
10:31 deshipu there is one more problem
10:31 deshipu wind will sway the camera poles
10:32 Xerrass lets say they are out of masive steel
10:32 Xerrass polted to the earth
10:32 Xerrass *boltet
10:32 Xerrass so no swining nearly stable
10:32 deshipu and I suppose you could also have markers on the cameras themselves, so they know each other's positions too
10:32 deshipu the ones that can see each other, at least
10:33 Xerrass brb
10:37 Xerrass back
10:38 Xerrass http://wp.josh.com/2013/05/23/first-look-at-distance-measurement-using-the-at86rf233-chip/
10:38 Xerrass i found this
10:41 Xerrass it looks very precise on 20 meter scale
10:41 deshipu yeah, could work
10:41 deshipu if you mix that with inertial naviagtion
10:42 deshipu feed it to a kalman filter
10:42 deshipu you also automatically get distances to other robots
10:43 Xerrass true
10:43 deshipu so you get better accurace in a crowd
10:43 deshipu accuracy
10:43 Xerrass and other robots will make the position even more acurate
10:44 deshipu then there is another problem
10:44 Xerrass i think i will try this then
10:44 Xerrass wich ?0
10:44 deshipu disturbances from electric and magnetic fields
10:44 deshipu also from obstacles
10:44 Xerrass yeah i think the mass will there be the factor
10:44 deshipu if the sensor is behind an obstacle, it will seem to be further away than it really is
10:45 Xerrass idealy i want to set a transciever every 10 meters
10:45 Xerrass but you can mathematicly get this out or if i have 10 sources and 2 sources are nto there where they are suposed to be
10:46 Xerrass will get rid of more problems like angles very complicatet trackingsoftware over camera
10:46 deshipu I'm not sure, triangulation seems easier than tillateration
10:47 deshipu but that's just me
10:47 Xerrass ^^
10:47 Xerrass yeah and im just trying to understand all this stuff
10:47 Xerrass ^^
10:47 deshipu you are in for a fun ride
10:47 deshipu also research SLAM
10:48 Snert seems like a very large subject.
10:49 Xerrass but on the transmitter side i only need one dont have to care about the whole banthwich that i need for the cameras the Cpu power to process all the images or am i wrong ?
10:49 Xerrass Snert, what did you mean ?
10:49 Xerrass deshipu, what is SLAM ?
10:49 Xerrass will gogle it
10:49 Snert lots of things to take into consideration.
10:50 Xerrass yeah
10:50 Snert just strap an iphone to the side of the robot.
10:50 deshipu we've been trying to solve this problem for the last 40 years ;)
10:50 Xerrass but i have 2 friends that want to hop onboard probably and i think it not oly can be a fun projekt
10:50 Xerrass have robots building stuf on its one is a long dream from cmpanys right
10:51 Xerrass and what shoud the iphone do if its on the moon
10:51 Xerrass ^^
10:51 Xerrass there is no gms i think
10:51 Xerrass *gps
10:51 Snert why, the same thing it would do if your robot were on the moon.
10:51 deshipu carry a harpoon
10:51 Xerrass if i doo it with an internal positionong system
10:52 Xerrass it will work as suposed to be
10:52 deshipu who knows
10:52 Xerrass if i provide the own network ...
10:52 Xerrass atleast i hope it will work XD
10:52 Snert it's fun to think about. but not very realistic.
10:53 deshipu the idea is to use the inertial system for short distance/accuracy, and some more coarse system for general positioning, and combine the two with a kalman filter
10:53 Xerrass Snert, i want to make i reality
10:53 deshipu Xerrass: it practice it's much cheaper to just have a human setup the whole thing, and move the robot from place to place when it finishes :)
10:53 deshipu especially when the human doesn't need much training
10:54 Xerrass achtualy i dnont think so if you have the stf it can work all time
10:54 Xerrass *stuf if
10:54 Xerrass it will be acurae as shit
10:54 deshipu except when it breaks and you need specialists to fix it
10:54 Xerrass yeah this are problems i will get into later on
10:54 Xerrass i hope XD
10:55 Xerrass first off all positioning then moving stuf on its own
10:55 Xerrass "logistic" system
10:55 Xerrass then building themselv
10:55 Xerrass then i have skynet
10:55 Xerrass muhahaha
10:55 deshipu grasping objects is an insanely hard thing
10:56 deshipu I think you will need a camera for it anyways
10:56 Xerrass deshipu, did youmean Pabing ?
10:56 Xerrass *grabing
10:56 deshipu grasp planning is fun 3d geometry analysis
10:57 Xerrass did you mean grap stuf with a hand ?
10:57 deshipu yes, or a gripper
10:57 deshipu or whatever
10:58 Xerrass yeah for what ever reason shoud i want to deal with hands ?
10:58 deshipu plan where to best place it, how to close it, what force to use
10:58 Xerrass easyest ways is forklifter and such stuff
10:58 deshipu that works if everything is on prepared palettes
10:58 Xerrass if you prepair for a robot and not a man you can actualy prepari what it uses too
10:58 Xerrass i dont want a human like system
10:59 deshipu but you said you want them to build something?
10:59 deshipu so you have to remove it from the pallets at some point
10:59 Xerrass yeah for what reason shoudent i prepair everytihng fo a robot use ?
10:59 Xerrass special screws ...
10:59 Xerrass special clips
10:59 Xerrass @ the material
10:59 deshipu because then the robot is cheaper
11:00 Xerrass is it cheaper if i doo all the programming for grabiing stuf or is it chepaer with a small algorithm that just works
11:01 Xerrass i dont want to do Magik stuff
11:01 deshipu it's a tradeoff, spend more time now to save it in the long run, or just use whatever quick and dirty method, but suffer long-term penalty
11:01 Xerrass i think its just different aproaces
11:02 deshipu I would go with quick and dirty for the prototype
11:02 Xerrass you cna stic with the complicated stuff and using a robotic hand to do it or you prepair the material for a robot so you stick special things to it ...
11:03 Xerrass hey best will be a gientic 3d printer sent to the moon
11:03 Xerrass just printing th houses on the go XD
11:03 deshipu best would be to just send the whole houses there
11:03 deshipu and be done with it
11:04 Xerrass ahh i dont know if you dont use something inflatabal it is havy requers a lot of money to get it there ...
11:04 deshipu Xerrass: if it's a moon system, then you can assume there are some low-orbit satellites with super-precise version of gps, I suppose
11:04 Xerrass hmm
11:04 Xerrass you realy think ?
11:05 Xerrass and what is indor?
11:05 deshipu checkered floor ;)
11:05 Xerrass my system adapts to indor just place some transcivers indor
11:05 Xerrass ^^
11:05 deshipu just count how many times the floor changed from black to white
11:06 Xerrass and then someon splashes color on the ground
11:06 Xerrass black color
11:06 deshipu or that camera pointed at the ceiling
11:06 Xerrass and you are destroing the whol building
11:06 Xerrass ^^
11:07 deshipu the camera-on-the-ceiling-and-marker-on-the-robot thing has one huge advantage
11:07 deshipu it already exists and works very well
11:07 deshipu there is open source code that does it
11:07 Xerrass how many procesing power did you need to check like 20 cmaeras
11:08 Xerrass 20 camera streams
11:08 deshipu people do it on rpi, so I guess not that much
11:08 Xerrass hmm did you hav a link to it ?
11:09 Xerrass hmm on the other hand what is like itereting abilion nubers a second for a processor
11:09 deshipu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSq9V2b5AZ8
11:10 Xerrass https://sites.google.com/site/playwithopencv/home/markerdetect
11:10 deshipu also, processing power is only going to become cheaper
11:10 Xerrass hmm this cinda dont helps
11:10 Xerrass ^^
11:10 Xerrass yeah but for stuf like moon and so on you have to see fo thr energy usage
11:12 deshipu http://hackaday.com/2014/08/24/open-source-marker-recognition-for-augmented-reality/
11:14 deshipu Xerrass: an my guess is that you will want to have cameras monitoring the construction place anyways
11:14 Xerrass true
11:16 deshipu also, this gives you position in 3d and heading information
11:16 deshipu position and orientation
11:16 deshipu not sure if moon has enough of magnetic field to have compass work?
11:17 Xerrass dont know
11:17 Xerrass i think i will take both
11:17 Xerrass fm and camaera stuff
11:17 Xerrass fm for begining
11:17 Xerrass and let both work togehter
11:17 Xerrass will be best coverage i think
11:18 deshipu sure
11:18 Xerrass and shoud be realy acurate
11:18 Xerrass + you can monitor air vehicles too
11:18 Xerrass and if they get into camera range position will be beter
11:18 Xerrass ...
11:52 Xerrass cya later gys
15:07 student hello arduino lovers!
15:10 student hi guys
15:11 student jason?
15:11 student any one active?
15:16 anonnumberanon sup
15:17 jason__ you're too late
15:25 [cube] late to the party anonnumberanon, AGAIN
15:42 akem hi
15:42 robopal hi
15:59 anonnumberanon [cube], stop bullying me
16:00 anonnumberanon rue_house, was your power supply less or equal to $20 ? I doubt it for the main transformer/suplly alone. Is your maximum current draw 5 amps from these two modules?
16:10 Tom_itx grow a set
16:11 ace4016 of crystals?
16:12 Tom_itx <anonnumberanon> [cube], stop bullying me
16:12 anonnumberanon Tom_itx, stahp bulyeen mee
16:13 anonnumberanon damn, i should have wrote boolean
16:13 Tom_itx just not that cool i guess
16:14 onnumberanon goes back to the
18:53 veverak deshipu: https://github.com/rock-simulation/phobos
18:53 veverak looks awesome
18:53 veverak also
18:53 veverak getting together group around "ros" in local hackerspace
18:55 LiohAu anybody knows "maedler" ?
18:55 LiohAu (the brand)
19:16 LiohAu I'm looking at a solidworks assembly found on the web, and there's one thing that I can't figure out. Why is there 2 gears (the yellow one) - here is a capture of the assembly http://imgur.com/QibhMTG
19:16 LiohAu is it only to get the same height as the white gear?
19:38 Snert__ does solidworks have "Print" in the file menu and it shoots it off to the printer?
19:39 Tom_itx dunno about sw 2015
19:39 Snert__ as in 3d printer
19:39 Tom_itx i doubt it
19:39 Tom_itx needs to be converted to layers and gcode to print
19:39 Tom_itx you need to run it thru a slicer n dicer
19:40 Tom_itx save as .stl
19:40 Snert__ I bet in 6 months there will be plugins that do that.
19:40 Tom_itx i bet not
19:41 Snert__ as 3d printing becomes more mainstream it'll be included in apps.
19:41 Tom_itx Dassault doesn't care about kids and their toy printers
19:43 SpeedEvil You get nice printers which can do inconel.
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21:41 -!- FREEMONEY was kicked from #robotics by Tom_itx!~Tl@unaffiliated/toml/x-013812 [FREEMONEY]
22:57 orlock zhanx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zi94LW8kjo
22:58 orlock https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpKJVIEYB20
22:59 zhanx High winds knocked out my yagi, summary?
22:59 orlock Just the star thing doing blinky stuff
23:00 zhanx K
23:27 rue_house what kinda idiot clicks that?
23:28 rue_house orlock, woof, great work
23:28 rue_house oops lost one
23:28 rue_house er not
23:29 rue_house must be the camera angle
23:30 rue_house yea you got one led misbehaving