#robotics Logs

Mar 25 2015

00:21 rue_house EvilCreep, how many servos are you controling?
00:22 EvilCreep 6.. 4 wheels.. 2 for camera..
00:22 rue_house how much you pay for the ssc?
00:23 EvilCreep ssc?
00:23 rue_house serial servo controller
00:23 EvilCreep $20
00:23 rue_house how many servos does it run?
00:24 EvilCreep 6
00:24 rue_house hmm
00:25 rue_house I have a ssc that I made around the $2.50 arduino baord, if you would like to try it I can give you any technical help you might want
00:27 rue_house its free, youjust need a mega328 based arduino board
00:29 rue_house oh, and its WAY higher resolution than most ssc
00:29 rue_house about 12 bits, REAL bits
00:29 rue_house most of the specs lie
00:29 rue_house no jitter, 8 servos
00:33 rue_house https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZF9WJ1Ueew
00:33 rue_house its on that
00:34 EvilCreep This is what I have.. I got it for the USB and it's small so works well with my tablet and OTG adapater.. https://www.pololu.com/product/1350
00:35 rue_house ;/ looks like they used a microchip controller
00:38 rue_house the servos are NOT powered by the usb, right?
00:44 EvilCreep yep 6 volt battery pack
00:45 rue_house off to bed, gnight!
00:46 rue_house tell me if your into the arduino-mini based 8 channel, 12 bit ssc code I did (its not arduino code)
00:49 EvilCreep I don't own any ardunio stuff but I do have a Teensy2++ but it's PWM is really poor..
01:39 rue_bed the code I have uses the two timers
01:39 rue_bed is the teensy an atmega328?
02:58 adam789654123 anybody around?
02:59 mrdata no
02:59 mrdata just us, i guess
03:00 adam789654123 ohhhhh.... uhhhh.... I dont have any hard questions or anything
03:00 adam789654123 just seeing if anybody was in a silly enough mood to chat with me
03:01 data brings his silly dete
03:01 adam789654123 in know some great charaters frequent this channel
03:01 adam789654123 :-)
03:02 mrdata i was thinking of hooking up a robot to a neural network
03:02 adam789654123 you know, the kind of people that you would like to have a beer with, but that you definitly wouldnt want to trip on acid with.... you know the type
03:02 adam789654123 hmmm
03:02 mrdata but what if it becomes self-aware?
03:02 adam789654123 can you tell me about the software
03:03 adam789654123 hmmm
03:03 mrdata well, there needs to be some way to train inputs and outputs
03:03 adam789654123 you better make it handsome or pretty or whatever
03:03 adam789654123 you dont want it to find out its ugly
03:03 adam789654123 that wouldnt be good
03:03 mrdata the network itself i will model as an echo-state network of arbitrary complexity
03:04 mrdata i will make it monstrous
03:04 adam789654123 what is a echo state network?
03:04 mrdata then it can give me a monster hug
03:04 adam789654123 is that like feedbacki/
03:04 adam789654123 feedback*
03:04 adam789654123 ?
03:04 adam789654123 :-)
03:04 Anniepoo feedback feedback feedback
03:04 adam789654123 hmmm...
03:04 adam789654123 perhaps thats what wiki is made for
03:05 adam789654123 I shall come back an expert after I read the first paragraph
03:05 mrdata http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_state_network
03:05 mrdata http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Echo_state_network
03:06 adam789654123 there WAS only one paragraph
03:06 adam789654123 and I ...... well..... i sort of like to pretend that I kind of get it
03:06 adam789654123 to make myself feel better
03:06 adam789654123 but i dont
03:07 mrdata the other article gets into it more
03:07 mrdata both refer to lots of stuff
03:07 adam789654123 "the error funnction is thus quadratic" Eurika!!!! of course!!!!
03:07 adam789654123 whatever ..... :/
03:08 mrdata "laugh while you still can, monkey boy"
03:08 adam789654123 how is being quadratic an implication of the only parameters being weights of the output laper?
03:08 adam789654123 layer*
03:09 mrdata that's an exercise i will leave to you
03:09 adam789654123 does it sound reasonable to you?
03:10 adam789654123 or are you thinking, who the hell wrote that?
03:10 mrdata basically, the network is random and arbitrarily complex, which means i can use anything either natural or artificial
03:10 mrdata but it must satisfy the echo-state property
03:10 adam789654123 you mean natural or artificial input to train it?
03:11 mrdata which is a constraint that prevents a kind of seizure
03:11 adam789654123 hmmmm
03:11 mrdata and then you train the outputs
03:11 adam789654123 ohhhh
03:12 adam789654123 "train the outputs" thats an interesting way to think about it
03:12 adam789654123 is there a relativily simple way you can express how data flows through the system?
03:12 mrdata the model wraps that in a black box, of sorts
03:12 adam789654123 ohhh
03:12 adam789654123 damn shame
03:12 adam789654123 :/
03:13 mrdata saves me time
03:13 mrdata i dont want to have to think about the internals
03:13 adam789654123 yeah.... well im crazy like that
03:13 mrdata too complex
03:13 adam789654123 if thats a waist of time, then you should see how I waist my time
03:13 mrdata the word is waste
03:14 adam789654123 ohhh
03:14 adam789654123 anyway
03:14 mrdata idk if it's a waste of time
03:14 adam789654123 I have to go
03:14 adam789654123 thanks for the chat
03:14 adam789654123 good luck on your project
03:14 mrdata it would just take too long to wade into
03:14 adam789654123 :-)
03:14 adam789654123 np
03:14 adam789654123 see ya
03:20 mrdata that escalated quickly
03:26 deshipu let's call the whole thing off
04:50 TK_ Hiya!
04:54 Jak_o_Shadows hi
04:54 mrdata lo
10:32 TK_ Are there longer than 17cm jumper wires?
10:35 deshipu you can make them as long as you wish
11:00 TK_ Wouldn't connections start to come loose under the weight of a long wire?
11:02 deshipu if you let it hang...
11:06 TK_ Then it'd need extra connection to be kept in place, yea?
11:09 TK_ ...Perhaps you were to ( somewhat temporarily ) connect a motor almost vertically above a controlling device?
11:10 deshipu TK_: I have no idea what you mean
11:10 TK_ Would it be practical to make something like a jumper wire and connect at a distance?
11:10 verak just imagine wire jumping ar
11:10 veverak *imagined
11:10 veverak I am over-.... everythink these days
11:11 deshipu veverak: I just discovered BlenderSCAD
11:11 veverak that sounds horrible
11:11 veverak but I like the way it sounds!
11:11 veverak :)
11:11 deshipu well, you write scad-like code, but render it in blender
11:12 deshipu you know, high resolution, nice effects, lighting
11:12 veverak wow
11:13 deshipu I didn't try it yet
11:13 veverak blender installed
11:14 veverak deshipu: I was considering connecting my lib to blender difrectly
11:14 veverak could be nice
11:16 deshipu yeah, it's where most of the cool work goes these days
11:18 TK_ There's also ImplicitCad.
11:18 TK_ www.implicitcad.org/
11:20 deshipu TK_: looks like scad
11:22 shipu looks at the installation instructions and
11:23 TK_ deshipu, seems more advanced.
11:23 deshipu TK_: not really
11:24 veverak wat?
11:24 deshipu doesn't even have convex hull
11:24 veverak nope
11:24 veverak not really
11:24 veverak they didn't make webbroswer cad
11:24 veverak please, tell me that they didn't
11:24 veverak :/
11:24 deshipu veverak: they didn't, that runs on the server and uploads the rendered image
11:25 deshipu veverak: it's haskell, not js
11:25 deshipu well, not rendered image
11:25 veverak still doesn't sound like win
11:25 deshipu generated stl file
11:25 deshipu they just have a js stl browser
11:25 deshipu viewer
11:26 deshipu hmm, I could make the same thing with openscad
11:26 deshipu veverak: why not? at least you don't have to install anything
11:40 veverak deshipu: but it's highliy ineffecient
11:40 veverak point is
11:40 deshipu cpus are cheap
11:40 veverak wat?
11:40 veverak that's seriously stupid argument to be honest
11:41 veverak "it's better to buy new machine with better cpu than install something" ?
11:42 deshipu veverak: first of all, the machine is a web server and I don't have to buy anything to use it, second, have you seen those install instructions?
11:42 veverak deshipu: I don't mind server calcualting the heavy machinery
11:42 veverak and it's quite nice
11:42 veverak but that JS viewer got it's limits too
11:43 veverak and they are way lower than limits of native app
11:43 verak when wants to view entire project, practically uses scad file that just loads many .stl files nad gives them c
11:44 veverak and this still creates lags on my machine
11:44 deshipu veverak: that viewer uses webgl and is as efficient as a native app
11:44 veverak ( half-year old thinkpad with core i7)
11:44 veverak deshipu: hard to believe that to be honest
11:44 veverak but if that works I don't mind it
11:45 deshipu veverak: I know, because all I can see is "this browser doesn't support webgl"
11:53 veverak :)
12:19 adam789654123 found this movie trailer that some nerds here (what do you mean nerds? Where?) might appreciate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q216LjDzeJw
12:32 deshipu nice
12:32 adam789654123 what? the trailer?
12:32 adam789654123 you talkin to me?
12:33 adam789654123 deshipu is buisy watchin the trailer now
12:33 adam789654123 what have i baited him into?
12:59 TK_ deshipu, veverak: the language seems more unified|powerful.
13:04 adam789654123 TK_: haskell seems more powerfull than js?
13:07 TK_ The language of ImplicitCad vs OpenSCAD.
13:07 adam789654123 oh... yeah Implicit cad I saw has Haskell native
13:08 adam789654123 I was a bit confused though as to Haskell being compiled into C or what that was about
13:14 deshipu TK_: both are turing complete, not sure what you mean by language power here
13:15 veverak TK_: using python to do my scad cading
13:16 TK_ ...more unified design, less exceptions.
13:16 veverak so, I assume it can't beat python in "language power"
13:16 veverak :)
13:16 deshipu TK_: much less functionality, to start with -- that's for sure
13:16 TK_ :)
13:16 deshipu veverak: they all have the same "power"
13:16 veverak deshipu: not sure about that
13:16 deshipu veverak: it's the upper limit
13:17 deshipu veverak: the turing tar pit
13:17 veverak deshipu: scad afaik can't load files and connect to database
13:17 veverak :)
13:17 deshipu veverak: neither can python
13:17 deshipu veverak: as a language
13:18 veverak (firt I use for analysis of cad models (some parts models themselfs based on the others)) and second mainly as cache/loading materials info
13:18 veverak deshipu: well, I always thought about 'language power' from practical sense
13:18 veverak which covers functionality it provides me :P
13:18 veverak O:)
13:18 deshipu veverak: some runtime environments of python allow you to do that, but that has nothing to do with the language itself
13:18 veverak but yeah, that's personal opinion
13:18 deshipu veverak: language power is a well defined mathematical concept
13:19 deshipu veverak: nothing personal in it
13:19 veverak well
13:19 veverak I don't like this debates generally
13:19 deshipu you can encode exactly the same computations in both of them
13:20 veverak because it turns from 'solving problems' to 'what this term actually mean?"
13:20 veverak which I hate
13:20 deshipu well, there is no problem to solve here, that's why
13:20 verak is the kind of people who tries to give the words meaning by what he thinks the other guy thought b
13:20 deshipu the whole discussion is based on buzzwords
13:20 veverak not by 'proper' definition
13:21 veverak yeah
13:21 veverak too
13:21 deshipu veverak: well, that's the problem I'm trying to point out, that word, as used by TK_, has no meanning outside of "generally good thing that is supposed to make you feel nice"
13:22 veverak true
13:22 deshipu and substituting an actual meaning for it makes it make no sense
13:23 veverak well
13:24 veverak I found out that this abillity gives mne abillity to better understand people
13:26 deshipu that's for sure
13:26 veverak which is quite handy
13:26 deshipu as long as you can switch it on and off
13:26 veverak because I suppose that any interesting thing in this world is past capabillities of one man :)
13:27 adam789654123 deshipu: "both are turing complete" so is brainfuck! ;-)
13:27 deshipu veverak: that's why we are building that AI ;)
13:27 deshipu adam789654123: indeed
13:27 deshipu adam789654123: that's why language power has little use at this level of reasoning
13:28 deshipu a better criterion would be how well the given language corresponds to what you actually need to do and how you think about it
13:30 veverak yeah
13:30 veverak that's exactly the reason why i think, that proper coder picks proper language for present task
13:33 veverak which explains I am not usually fond of the ideas 'hey, look, we found one language in which you can code everything so you should do so and it's good idea!'
13:40 adam789654123 veverak: although I have my biases, its because of what I think is cool... but i completely agree with you
13:41 veverak yeah, I tend to try cool things too
13:41 veverak but meh..
13:46 adam789654123 hahaha
13:46 adam789654123 "but meh..."
13:46 adam789654123 humorously counter climactic
13:49 TK_ "ImplicitCAD often has much more general operations than those in OpenSCAD"
13:49 adam789654123 not suprised
13:50 deshipu case in point: CSS
13:51 deshipu you want to center something vertically?
13:51 deshipu vertical-align
13:51 deshipu vertical-align: center won't work
13:51 deshipu you have to muck about with negative margins
13:53 veverak :D
14:04 TK_ meant "powerfulness" to include not only what is ultimately possible to encode but also what it takes to do it -- the ease of doing it
14:07 TK_ ...refering to the design of a language. ...more unified, less exceptions and arbitrary choices.
14:10 TK_ Didn't mean to conFuse people, deshipu , veverak :)
14:14 TK_ 'epigram' could be considered worthy in a sense even while not Turing-complete.
14:18 adam789654123 "confusion.... will be my epitaph...." are lyrics to what song?
15:10 TK_ adam789654123, is this a rhetorical question?
15:16 adam789654123 im not trying to be clever. just felt strangly compelled to toss the hook
15:40 TK_ adam789654123, the song seems to be named "Epitaph".
15:47 adam789654123 yeah.... im just a king crimson fan