#robotics Logs

Mar 03 2015

00:12 rue_bed its interesting the things that break what a printer can do
00:35 rue_bed rif...
00:35 rue_bed theBear, what you up to?
00:35 rue_bed everyone asleep?
00:36 rue_bed but me
00:38 orlock not me
00:38 orlock just been wiring up a nice heavy 18v 1.1A PSu i found to my heated bed
00:38 orlock power things up.. tell it to start heating
00:39 orlock PSU starts smoking :-\
00:39 rue_bed 18W?
00:39 orlock now i have nasty burning smell in my nose
00:39 rue_bed for a bed?
00:39 orlock too low?
00:39 rue_bed my understanding is to try to hit about 100W+
00:40 rue_bed mine was 120W
00:40 rue_bed it blowed up tho, kinda
00:40 rue_bed I have a better plan now
00:41 rue_bed I'm gonna make a silicone heating mat
01:27 theBear just tinkering about the house
01:36 rue_bed I made a 3d printed 80mm fan grate
01:37 rue_bed desinged one cause I didn't like any of the ones on thingiverse
04:20 RifRaf you ripped out its vocal cords?
09:15 rue_more grate, like grill
09:15 rue_more all the ones on thingiverse use too much plastic and restrict the air too much
09:18 deshipu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6bmTNadhJE <-- new movie about robots
09:19 deshipu a little bit remake of Short Circuit, I'm afraid
09:20 deshipu but maybe not
09:21 rue_more oh good, if people are still talking about chappie I havn't missed it yet
09:23 deshipu hehe
09:23 deshipu the robots in Elysium were meh
09:23 deshipu but the mech in District 9 was nice
09:24 deshipu a little bit too SciFi, but that fit with the theme
09:24 deshipu why is it always that humanoid robots are the good ones, and the non-humanoid the bad?
09:25 deshipu that's humanism
09:54 _TK_ Greetings!
09:56 _TK_ ...to them, deshipu, rue_more and all :)
10:16 sw0rdfish Israeli prime minister about to defy Obama and speak to congress behind his back!
10:47 stoopkid what robots is everybody working on right now
11:10 deshipu stoopkid: small quadruped spiders
11:20 stoopkid deshipu: do they work?
11:30 Asshazie wee, there's a robotics channel
11:30 Asshazie yo, any soft roboticists here
11:30 Asshazie I'm trying to erm
11:30 Asshazie erm
11:30 stoopkid soft roboticist?
11:31 Asshazie design actuators to work along an analog valued actuation system in my control system chart
11:31 stoopkid like furbies?
11:31 Asshazie so don't suggest motors or solenoids pls
11:31 Asshazie lol, no, soft robotics allows for your "limbs" to have analog states
11:31 deshipu stoopkid: of course they do
11:32 Asshazie I'm more interested in hearing about PAMs, pneumatic air muscles
11:32 deshipu Asshazie: there was a nice article on twisted thread actuators some time ago
11:32 Asshazie Has anyone worked with these before?
11:32 stoopkid Asshazie: sounds pretty cool, don't know much about it though
11:32 deshipu Asshazie: I'd like to try and make a small tentacle using that and some tiny vibro motors
11:32 Asshazie Oh deshipu: Do you mean the heat activated ones?
11:32 deshipu Asshazie: no
11:33 deshipu Asshazie: http://www.hizook.com/blog/2015/01/13/twisted-string-actuators-surprisingly-simple-cheap-and-high-gear-ratio
11:33 Asshazie The issue is that with heat you end up with "How the hell do I vent all of this heat off to let my muscle retract back to its original state?"
11:33 deshipu Asshazie: it has a hard part in it (the motor), but most of it is soft
11:33 Asshazie I wasn't able to get good actuation times with the nylon thread muscle design
11:33 Asshazie Alright, I'll look
11:34 Asshazie Yeah, this is the design, but without heat
11:34 deshipu might work :)
11:35 Asshazie Some scientists are using vanadium ribbons and getting nanosecond coil times I hear
11:35 Asshazie Have you used anything with air or water pressure?
11:36 Asshazie Or even any pressurized gas?
11:36 Asshazie Why do many roboticists stick with the outdated motor and gear design?
11:36 deshipu no, it's impractical at the sizes I work with
11:36 deshipu also, pneumatics are prettu much just on/off, you practically don't have anything in the middle
11:37 deshipu hydraulics are great for larger robots
11:37 deshipu practically infinite power
11:37 deshipu but then if they start to leak...
11:37 deshipu or a valve gets plugged
11:37 deshipu it's messy
11:37 Asshazie I'm also afraid that their efficiency will be less than the torque of the motor
11:37 Asshazie which means that for smaller motor twists it won't be able to lift heavy loads
11:37 Asshazie :(
11:37 deshipu Asshazie: I use hobby rc servos, because they are *cheap*
11:38 Asshazie deshipu: I see
11:38 _TK_ Hi, Asshazie :)
11:38 _TK_ news.discovery.com/tech/gear-and-gadgets/soft-exoskeleton-flexes-its-artificial-muscles-130628.htm
11:38 Asshazie ooh~
11:40 Asshazie That's neat!
11:40 Asshazie ..and encouraging
11:41 _TK_ :)
11:41 Asshazie so PAM is the right path then
11:41 _TK_ ...just one path.
11:44 deshipu stoopkid: this is my latest one: http://hackaday.io/project/3301-pico-kubik-quadruped-robot
11:50 Asshazie http://www.livescience.com/43536-yarn-muscles-100x-stronger-human-muscles.html
11:50 _TK_ Asshazie: ...just a path that's been tried.
11:51 Asshazie Yeah, I tried it myself.
11:51 Asshazie :P
11:51 Asshazie The muscles didn't contract very far, I used fishing wire near some nichrome wire.
11:52 Asshazie Guess nature is always one step ahead of us
11:52 Asshazie :(
11:52 Asshazie But there have to be other paths, right?
11:52 deshipu nanomachines!
11:52 Asshazie Sounds affordable
11:52 Asshazie :P
11:53 deshipu you make gray goo, it's cheap, it replicates itself ;)
11:53 deshipu what could possibly go wrong
11:53 Asshazie Hehe
11:58 Asshazie yet it isn't encouraging that no one's found success with these yet
11:58 Asshazie or at the most, mainstream success
11:58 Asshazie twisted or PAM, I wonder why they don't catch on
12:02 _TK_ What would you recommend for simulation or virtual prototyping?
12:03 deshipu Asshazie: I think we will know the moment anybody actually has success with gray goo
12:04 _TK_ http://www.openrobots.org/morse/doc/latest/morse.html
12:33 Asshazie It should be an ongoing mission here to find better actuation systems.
12:33 Asshazie But I guess that's an issue for ##cybernetics, not robotics
12:34 Asshazie I'll share my results soon
12:35 armyofevilrobots http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-air-muscles!/
12:40 Asshazie there are lovely guides
12:40 Asshazie but many people don't seem to really go into depth about how these muscles work and if they're successful
12:40 Asshazie actuation systems using PAM and twisted fibers are usually slow
12:41 deshipu Asshazie: there were those polymer-based batteries, that stored electricty in twisting of the polymer strands
12:41 Asshazie They aren't sensible for anything more than animatronics at Disneyworld
12:41 deshipu Asshazie: they would shrink when charged
12:41 Asshazie deshipu: Really?
12:41 Asshazie Neat to think about, whoa.
12:42 Asshazie I wonder what kind of shelf life those would have.
12:42 deshipu the problem is, the patent is owned by some petrol companies that sit on it, so that it's not used in electric cars batteries
12:42 Asshazie And you wouldn't have to worry about shelf-draining
12:42 deshipu you would, actually
12:42 deshipu because they would discharge through internal resistance
12:42 Asshazie Yeah, the patent system is unruly isn't it, we'd be further in our developments without it
12:42 Asshazie deshipu: explain
12:43 deshipu Asshazie: well, a battery is a conductor too
12:43 Asshazie (But it also promotes competition, which stimulates the funding science needs)
12:43 deshipu Asshazie: well, it's a tradeoff
12:44 Asshazie Isn't a battery a collection of cells? Who are individually just collections of discharged materials separated by a dielectric
12:44 Asshazie :P
12:44 Asshazie I'm not usually a snark so work with me
12:44 deshipu Asshazie: the thing is, that dielectric is not perfect
12:44 deshipu early batteries would discharge themselves very fast
12:44 Asshazie what would be the dielectric in this case
12:44 deshipu precisely because the current would mostly flow through the battery
12:44 Asshazie If you're storing it in mechanical twists?
12:45 deshipu well, it's a chemical reaction after all
12:45 deshipu similar to the piezo-electric effect, from what I understand
12:45 Asshazie isee
12:45 Asshazie Oh, so they're just hitting things and making sparks
12:46 Asshazie or compressing things and making charge :P
12:46 deshipu the latter
12:46 deshipu I'm really not a physycist and that information is not even second-hand
12:46 deshipu but
12:46 Asshazie a mechanical battery sounds useful but I was hoping it would mean a longer storage life
12:46 deshipu it would be nice to have a polymer that contracted a lot when electricity is applied to it
12:47 deshipu for muscles
12:47 Asshazie not ideally infinite, of course because of the headache of entropy and spontaneity and all, but at least longer than most chem cells
12:47 Asshazie yeah, that's what would be ideal
12:48 Asshazie See, the article we mentioned earlier
12:48 deshipu Asshazie: from what I've heard, the greatest advantages were that it was very dense energetically, and it could be produced in any shape
12:48 Asshazie about the twisty nylon muscles
12:48 Asshazie is that if you coat it in nickel or silver and apply an electric charge to it
12:48 Asshazie it contracts, apparently
12:48 deshipu well, but that's because of heat
12:49 deshipu would be nice if all (or most) of the energy went to the motion
12:49 Asshazie yeah, and that's why it's bad because you'll have to either cool it or wait ages for the heat to leave so it can retract
12:49 deshipu without too much excess heat
12:49 Asshazie and most of the heat is lost to the surrounding air anyway, so its terribly inefficient
12:49 Asshazie anything with heat is usually bad
12:50 deshipu well, heat pumps are quite efficient :P
12:50 Asshazie explain.. I've never heard of those
12:50 deshipu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
12:51 Asshazie Argon gas seems to be a great candidate for PAM, but it's heavier than air.
12:51 Asshazie It has a low specific heat so it responds easily to changes in heat
12:51 Asshazie much more so than helium
12:51 deshipu "In heating mode, heat pumps are three to four times more efficient in their use of electric power, than are simple electrical resistance heaters."
12:51 Asshazie But the heavier than air bit means you can't use it for anything that'll take off in the air.
12:52 Asshazie That leaves helium, which takes forever to heat and cool, but also shares the advantage of not being flammable.
12:52 deshipu PAM?
12:53 Asshazie Air muscles
12:53 Asshazie Sorry, I'm prone to use "teen-speak" when talking about these things :P]
12:53 deshipu well, nothing is flammable as long as you don't let the oxygen in contact with it ;)
12:54 Asshazie Even Hydrogen gas?
12:54 deshipu fire, is oxidation
12:54 deshipu by definition
12:54 deshipu you can't have oxidation without oxygen
12:55 Asshazie holy bears, how did that slip my mind
12:55 deshipu you can have other exothermic chemical reactions, though, some of them equally violent
12:55 Asshazie In that case why not just use pure H2 for compressed air?
12:55 deshipu why not hydraulics then?
12:55 deshipu if you need to have closed loop anyways
12:56 Asshazie It's the lightest of all gases and I'm sure it responds well to changes in heat.
12:56 deshipu pneumatics have the advantage that you only need a pump, you take the air from, well, from the air
12:56 deshipu no need for a tank, unless you need to cache some of the energy
12:57 Asshazie Water has a much higher specific heat than air and is hard to bring to high pressures without large equipment
12:57 Asshazie But you're right
12:57 deshipu Asshazie: are you building ornitopthers?
12:57 Asshazie With a closed loop you'll spend less time cleaning out the pipes and you'll have much less to worry about filtration wise. lol
12:58 Asshazie deshipu: It's a distant idea I've dreamt about since I was a kid
12:58 Asshazie But I don't plan on building anything more than a proof of concept
12:58 deshipu why do you want to heat it, are mechanical pumps bad?
12:58 deshipu steam-powered ornitopthers?
12:59 Asshazie Heh, something like Heroditus's machine, yeah.
12:59 Asshazie I have some solenoid valves which are only 8g each and are 10mm form factor.
12:59 Asshazie Check them out
12:59 Asshazie http://ph.parker.com/us/12051/en/x-valve-miniature-pneumatic-solenoid-valvehttp://ph.parker.com/us/12051/en/x-valve-miniature-pneumatic-solenoid-valve
13:00 Asshazie Have you looked into these before?
13:00 Asshazie Ornitopthers
13:00 deshipu 23mm
13:00 deshipu wouldn't call that minitature
13:00 deshipu Asshazie: my robots fit in the palm of your hand
13:01 deshipu Asshazie: I'd love to have some 5mm electric air valves :)
13:01 deshipu Asshazie: best, a 3cm block of 12 of them :)
13:01 Asshazie http://ph.parker.com/us/12051/en/series-mx-miniature-solenoid-actuated-poppet-valve
13:01 Asshazie Sorry, I posted the wrong link
13:01 Asshazie hehe slip of the mind
13:01 deshipu 4cm
13:02 Asshazie I'm referring to width :O
13:02 Asshazie Yeah, what can you tell me about ornitopthers
13:02 deshipu I wonder if I could just make some
13:03 deshipu Asshazie: not much, really
13:03 Asshazie I've been looking at Herodotus's machine, it's surprisingly accurate for something made by an Ancient Egyptian
13:03 deshipu Asshazie: flapping your wings to fly is kinda silly
13:04 Asshazie Why so?
13:04 deshipu there is "ancient" and "ancient"
13:04 deshipu you know there is more time between the pyramids and Cleopatra than between Cleopatra and now?
13:04 Asshazie You're going to have to make the distinction more obvious.
13:04 Asshazie OH, right.
13:05 Asshazie Sorry I should say he's from Roman Egypt.
13:05 Asshazie Not the --Ancient-- Egypt that people fantasize about
13:05 Asshazie The more recent one then, but still pretty ancient.
13:05 deshipu yeah :)
13:06 deshipu the Chinese had some wicked stuff at that time
13:06 Asshazie deshipu: You're criticizing God's design?
13:06 deshipu which god?
13:06 Asshazie I mean, sure I don't like the way our bodies are made sure
13:07 Asshazie hehe I'm only kidding around. :P
13:07 deshipu one of the egyptian ones, or one of the chinese ones?
13:07 Asshazie No, I was responding to your "flapping the wings" bit
13:07 deshipu ah, well, animals didn't have much choice
13:08 deshipu air is too compressable to do, say, a squid
13:08 Asshazie lol, a flying tentacle monster.
13:08 Asshazie but yeah
13:08 deshipu and the nature still didn't invent rotating joints
13:09 Asshazie People don't seem to be too crazy about modeling birds for flight
13:09 deshipu it's still at expanding and contracting various things
13:09 deshipu although admittably it's good at it
13:09 Asshazie The drones nowadays are made using rotating motors and fans.
13:09 deshipu there are some very nice flying robots
13:09 Asshazie I agree, but few that behave exactly as a bird does.
13:09 deshipu like dragon flies, there was even that realistic bird
13:10 Asshazie You mean that Google project? Haha, that was far from
13:10 deshipu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg_JcKSHUtQ
13:10 Asshazie And the dragon flies just exploited the fact that dragonfly wings don't bend or have any need for changing their angle of attack per stroke
13:10 Asshazie Hummingbird and dragonfly bots don't excite me
13:11 deshipu the smaller you go, the easier it gets
13:11 deshipu because mass grows exponentially with size
13:12 Asshazie Does it?
13:12 deshipu to the third power, if you are in 3d space :)
13:12 Asshazie That doesn't make much conceptual sense
13:12 deshipu make something twice as big, and sudenly it's 8 times heavier
13:12 Asshazie That isn't exponential though, that's still polynomial?
13:13 deshipu polynominal
13:13 deshipu sorry
13:13 deshipu argh
13:13 Asshazie Agh you frightened me
13:13 deshipu but still, third power is quite fast
13:13 Asshazie I was thinking 3^x not x^3
13:13 deshipu yeah, that woudl be crazy :)
13:13 Asshazie I'll tell you
13:14 Asshazie There needs to be study done on this
13:14 Asshazie ##cybernetics is the field of science of modeling science after nature
13:14 Asshazie This is what separates it from robotics
13:14 Asshazie I know you probably don't care
13:14 deshipu did you know that most insects can fall down from arbitrary heights without any harm?
13:14 Asshazie and you think that "flapping wings" is silly
13:15 Asshazie sure it is, but that's not the concern here, it'd be nice to have bots that mimic nature closely
13:15 deshipu except for the biggest beetles
13:15 deshipu Asshazie: why?
13:15 Asshazie regardless to how we believe the absurdity of natural design is
13:15 deshipu Asshazie: nature mimics the nature very well already :)
13:15 Asshazie deshipu: It has implications for biology and military science
13:15 deshipu Asshazie: if you want to mimic the nature, then just vat-grow some muscles
13:15 Asshazie Imagine being able to control a bot that assumed the form of a bird
13:15 Asshazie You could monitor the activities of other birds
13:16 deshipu Asshazie: otherwise, if you use different materials, different designs will be optimal
13:16 Asshazie Or even the activities of people from afar
13:16 deshipu nah
13:16 Asshazie I'm being airy in these dreams.
13:16 deshipu unvanny valley would make the other birds attack it instantly
13:16 deshipu uncanny valley
13:17 Asshazie I won't give up on this
13:17 Asshazie Don't try to deter me :P
13:17 deshipu animals have evolved for millenia with the ability to recognize "cheaters"
13:17 deshipu you know what would be nice though?
13:17 deshipu telepresence in a bird body
13:17 deshipu with full feedback
13:17 deshipu mapped into our nerves
13:17 Asshazie Yeah, and these "evolutions" are just intolerances for minor nuances in behavior
13:18 Asshazie We human beings do it too when we see people who are either ugly or different
13:18 Asshazie The trick is to make it assimilate more to the norm of how an ideal bird should act
13:18 Asshazie A brighter set of feathers, a larger chest.
13:18 Asshazie The ability to scare competitors
13:19 Asshazie This "ability" is just the ability to spot differences from the ideal model of how a creature like you should act
13:19 Asshazie or appear
13:19 Asshazie I'm already ahead of this
13:19 Asshazie Oh dear I must sound 50 shades of crazy to you
13:20 Asshazie Yeah, telepresence in an animal sounds nice if it can be proven that it doesn't disrupt the animal's natural biological processes
13:20 Asshazie Or causing the animal inhumane suffering
13:21 Asshazie Have fun getting the papers filed for permission to do that
13:21 Asshazie Assuming you'd do that under federal funding
13:22 deshipu Asshazie: no, I mean in a robot animal
13:23 Asshazie Oh, in that case, yeah, that's precisely one goal of this project
13:23 Asshazie The US government is hinting that this is what they're trying to do eventually
13:24 Asshazie I was watching a war college lecture by the Pentagon
13:24 Asshazie They were discussing optical flow technologies
13:24 Asshazie Part of the presentation showed a graphic where an observer wearing headgear was able to stream the vision of a bird directly to his own vision.
13:24 Asshazie Let me see if I can find it.
13:25 Asshazie They're eventually hoping to hide surveillance technologies within nature.
13:26 deshipu latency is a big problem with that
13:27 Asshazie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00aYgbwDaSQ
13:27 Asshazie That's not it, hold on
13:29 deshipu brb
13:32 Asshazie Christ, I can't find it
13:32 Asshazie It was in a playlist of lectures..
13:32 Asshazie urgh
13:33 Asshazie Anyway, the one thing that ethically frightens me is that there'll be a threshold against consumer available technology and martial technologies
13:33 Asshazie See, there was a court case some time ago, that established the legality of using weapons that aren't commercially available for martial service
13:34 Asshazie The issue is that if they begin using technologies that the consumer doesn't sensibly have access to
13:34 Asshazie Say:
13:34 Asshazie The technology IS commercially available, but its too pricey for anyone to build or buy themselves
13:35 Asshazie You'll have a monopoly on what the martial forces have over the civilian forces, and it'll be possible for the state to increasingly encroach on the rights of the civilians
13:35 Asshazie in the now newly threatening military state
13:35 Asshazie It all begins with surveillance technologies though
13:36 Asshazie I make every effort to keep up to date on how DARPA is coming along with these and I'll usually complain if things get out of hand
13:37 Asshazie Namely: it seems that they're developing something that consumers will likely never be able to have themselves
13:37 Asshazie I'm not actually interested in building any "bird bot", but I'd like to know how their actuation systems are working for those.
14:11 deshipu re
14:11 deshipu sorry, shopping
14:12 deshipu Asshazie: I wouldn't be afraid of that
14:14 deshipu Asshazie: the state used to have monopoly when those things required a lot of investment and cooperation -- you can't build an aircraft carrier ship at home
14:14 deshipu Asshazie: but when you can 3d-print a gun in a day...
14:15 deshipu and the power comes not from physical cooperation, but from knowledge
14:15 deshipu then any obsessive kid will have better resources than the government
14:19 Asshazie Right
14:20 deshipu and small-scale fabrication is getting easier and cheaper day by day
14:22 Asshazie It's no surprise that people are awed by technology that allows them to create
14:22 deshipu technology is overrated
14:22 Asshazie but of course then the regulations follow, or the price for making these things rises
14:23 Asshazie I mean its as easy as raising the price of the license needed to produce these items
14:23 Asshazie or making an age restriction on these items
14:23 deshipu Asshazie: regulations can't forbid something completely, because then it just goes underground
14:23 deshipu Asshazie: and they lose control over it completely
14:23 Asshazie Then it becomes an uneconomic decision for those who are adults, and it becomes impossible for "obsessive kids"
14:23 Asshazie True
14:23 Asshazie Eh, maybe.
14:24 deshipu see prohibition :)
14:24 Asshazie Yeah, I'm familiar with the bootlegging movement.
14:24 Asshazie hehe.
14:25 Asshazie So deshipu tell me more about yourself
14:25 Asshazie you're full of surprises
14:25 Asshazie What's your background?
14:25 Asshazie I come from a Hardware background, and had to learn CS afterward
14:25 deshipu I'm a python programmer
14:26 deshipu pretty boring
14:26 Asshazie programming was always imperative for me, I wasn't accustomed to OOP. I still prefer assembly over all other languages.
14:26 deshipu not really much to do with hardware
14:26 Asshazie Python? I see. I don't know that.
14:26 deshipu it's very nice
14:26 deshipu very fast prototyping, etc.
14:26 deshipu much like a pseudo-code, except it works :)
14:26 Asshazie I hear you can use inline C in Python, and use Inline Assembler in C. This lets you use Assembler in python transitively
14:26 Asshazie I might learn it then
14:27 deshipu well, depends on which python implementation
14:27 Asshazie So you don't seem to be excited by technology
14:27 Asshazie >Technology is overrated
14:27 Asshazie >pretty boring
14:27 Asshazie What about robots excites you then?
14:27 deshipu usually you can just call C functions from shared libraries
14:27 Asshazie The implications they have on society?
14:27 deshipu they don't have implications
14:27 deshipu they are toys
14:28 deshipu I like toys
14:28 Asshazie LOL
14:28 Asshazie Oh man so you aren't taking this seriously then
14:28 deshipu you know what robot in the history has probably had the most impact on the society
14:28 deshipu the washing machine
14:28 Asshazie These toys have great implications for military science
14:28 deshipu pretty dull
14:28 deshipu "military" and "science" don't mix
14:29 Asshazie Surveillance, legal control, cybernetics
14:29 Asshazie There's a science behind being able to station your troops and supplies among the field
14:29 deshipu yeah, those are ways to use old stuff that we know already
14:29 deshipu science is more about new stuff
14:29 Asshazie With a fully robotic army we'd be able to pinpoint exactly how these decisions would be made
14:30 Asshazie Leading to more precise counterterrorism operations
14:30 Asshazie Less casualties, etc.
14:30 deshipu robotic armies have no sense if your opponent also has them
14:30 Asshazie Then it becomes who has the better technology
14:30 deshipu they are only useful against civilians and insurgents
14:30 Asshazie War is about staying a step ahead
14:30 deshipu not really
14:31 Asshazie It just excites and terrifies me at how it'll be used eventually
14:31 deshipu in this regard I mostly feel disgust
14:31 Asshazie Maybe we'll see amendments to the Geneva Convention about how warfare should be carried out
14:31 Asshazie Automated warfare will become illegal
14:32 Asshazie etc
14:32 Asshazie Disgust?
14:32 deshipu conventions like that are useless already, look at the USA torturing humans freely and without any consequences, even though it's forbidden in the very beginning of Geneva convention
14:32 Asshazie You know how the human race behaves by this point.
14:33 Asshazie People will need to fight wars, and robots will become the cutting edge vanguard of how warfare is carried out by countries that can afford it
14:33 deshipu nah
14:33 Asshazie No, they aren't
14:33 Asshazie Torture wasn't outlawed by the Geneva Convention
14:33 deshipu it has all already moved into the networks and intelligence
14:33 Asshazie There were just definitions made of cruel torture
14:34 Asshazie And waterboarding and detainment certainly isn't torture
14:34 Asshazie Especially when many Afghans were given the right to pray and observe religious practice even while in custody
14:34 deshipu the only place where you need the good old traditiontal physical battles, is when you are fighting someone who doesn't use all this advanced technology
14:34 Asshazie Compare that to how the less liberal nations would have treated them
14:35 Asshazie So wait
14:35 Asshazie you're saying
14:35 deshipu Asshazie: "custody", heh, those people were kidnapped from suvereign countries without any court order or due process
14:35 Asshazie If we have the same weapons as other developed nations
14:35 Asshazie Warfare won't happen because we'll be even?
14:36 deshipu no, I'd rather say
14:36 Asshazie No, this isn't true, because the Civil War in America was fought between two technologically similar parties
14:36 deshipu if you can just inject backdoors and take over systems
14:36 Asshazie And it was decided ultimately be the party with more access to resources
14:36 deshipu it's cheaper than sending troops
14:36 Asshazie Warfare is decided by resources ultimately
14:36 deshipu of course, you need troops in the end to "control the ground"
14:37 deshipu but you send them as "humanitarian help" when it's all over
14:37 Asshazie But that's the thing though
14:37 Asshazie Cyber warfare only works for societies where their infrastructures are built into the cyber structures
14:38 Asshazie Even America could still function without internet communications
14:38 Asshazie It's overhyped because many people want to sound like they're in the know about what's new in military science
14:39 Asshazie Information warfare isn't as big of a threat if you keep your records in paper.
14:39 deshipu you don't understand
14:39 deshipu you don't do "cyber warfare"
14:39 deshipu you destroy their economy by bribing the officials to make bad decissions, you support the rebels in their country, etc.
14:39 Asshazie And many of the undeveloped countries that we fight insurgents in don't have such developed systems anyway
14:40 deshipu then, when the rebelion starts, you come in with "help"
14:40 Asshazie Ohohoho
14:40 deshipu and effectively occupy the country
14:40 Asshazie Like South America.
14:40 Asshazie Yeah, I've seen documentaries about what happened there with the illegal deals
14:40 deshipu then you perfectly legally buy out the critical infrastructure
14:40 Asshazie They'd send CIA agents to make fake oil deals that were too expensive, putting the country in debt
14:41 deshipu it's as old as merchants are
14:41 Asshazie Then after this entrapment they'd tell the country to align themselves with America in order to escape the debt
14:41 deshipu Persians did the same thing back then
14:41 deshipu the difference is that today it's so easy, that it has became cheaper than armies
14:41 Asshazie This is funny
14:42 Asshazie All of the strong men have put on suits and ties
14:42 Asshazie and carry briefcases, not swords
14:42 Asshazie What have happened to our glorious warriors
14:42 deshipu and nobody fights for "values" anymore, unless they can be expressed in $$$
14:43 Asshazie So you believe that physical conflict is meaningless then
14:43 deshipu I think this is where economy beat the instincts
14:43 deshipu Asshazie: of course not, it will not disappear
14:43 Asshazie You're remote to the idea that not everyone believes in economic aggression
14:44 deshipu Asshazie: a small commando team sent at a right time in a critical spot can tip the scales
14:44 Asshazie Some people have writs in their Holy Books that encourage physical fighting
14:44 deshipu Asshazie: but it will be more like precise small operations
14:44 Asshazie Then you have nutcases who try to organize wars themselves, like Idema or Kaczynski
14:44 Asshazie What about domestic threats
14:44 deshipu yeah, crowd control, sure
14:44 Asshazie from citizens who've become disenchanted and disenfranchised from the economic system
14:45 deshipu but that's not really "war"
14:45 Asshazie Cuz y'know, people rebel
14:45 deshipu more like a massacre
14:45 deshipu you are fighting rebels and insurgents then
14:45 Asshazie What exactly is a rebel and insurgent
14:45 deshipu and need completely different arms than fighting powerful army
14:45 Asshazie It's really just "grassroots" warfare
14:45 Asshazie When they pick up enough numbers
14:45 Asshazie It'll be a war
14:46 Asshazie Whether you consider it to be or not
14:46 Asshazie You could consider 'Nam to be a war of insurgency
14:46 deshipu but the classic view of a war, when one country invades another, will disappear
14:46 Asshazie Well, just insurgency
14:46 Asshazie but it was still a war
14:46 Asshazie Ah
14:46 deshipu Asshazie: I consider Iraq to be a war of insurgency
14:46 deshipu Asshazie: unfortunately they lost
14:47 Asshazie Yeah, but you're discounting the idea that people prefer to organize themselves in territories
14:47 deshipu didn't really stand a chance
14:47 Asshazie The concept of a unified single state is utopian
14:47 Asshazie It isn't how human work
14:47 Asshazie *humans
14:47 deshipu and when you lose, the insurgets become 'terrorists'
14:47 deshipu Asshazie: say, you know "The Pattern Language" by Christoper Alexander?
14:47 Asshazie You'll always have federations at best and these federations will eventually uprise to find their own sovereignty, I mean look at California and Texas
14:47 Asshazie They're threatening to secede
14:48 Asshazie No, I've never read it
14:48 deshipu he's an architect
14:48 deshipu he wrote a book about how to design places for people to live in
14:48 Asshazie Terrorism is a laughable word
14:48 deshipu using a set of patterns
14:48 Asshazie I'm surprised it's gotten such popularity
14:48 deshipu some people say he invented the wiki
14:49 Asshazie I mean, everyday situations happen when people threaten you
14:49 deshipu because the book is organized a lot like a wiki
14:49 Asshazie Why do we need a separate "ism" for it
14:49 Asshazie Seems like propaganda to me, but I dunno
14:49 deshipu so, the guy came up with a very convincing model for how countries should be organized
14:49 Asshazie I see
14:49 Asshazie What is his ideal pen and paper model
14:49 deshipu he came up with the optimal size, etc.
14:50 deshipu I don't want to spoil you the book :)
14:50 deshipu and by the way, he's a practicing architect
14:50 Asshazie I'll read it eventually
14:51 deshipu he doesn't write about political systems, etc.
14:51 Asshazie Architects are good at taking foundations drafted on paper and making these structures stand in the real world
14:51 deshipu just how the space should be organized for people to live most comfortably
14:51 Asshazie But I fear that his ideal state might go against how things actually work
14:51 deshipu he doesn't write anything about the state
14:51 Asshazie Many people write "ideal" books about how a society should organize itself
14:51 Asshazie Oh
14:51 deshipu just the spatial organization
14:52 Asshazie But you have to take into consideration how the culture of the people behaves to decide space
14:52 deshipu as in what should go where, how the borders should be done, etc.
14:52 Asshazie I mean, in an antisocial state like Japan
14:52 Asshazie Close proximity isn't a hassle, so people live in small rooms,
14:52 deshipu Japan is extremely social :)
14:52 deshipu just differently than we are
14:52 Asshazie In America, people prefer to live in large houses to show their power and status.
14:53 Asshazie Sorry, I shouldn't have said that
14:53 Asshazie Ugh, I'm channeling something I've read recently
14:53 Asshazie About living in Japan
14:53 Asshazie it was a magazine
14:53 Asshazie But yeah
14:53 Asshazie Spacing and housing is a product of the culture of the society
14:53 Asshazie You can't ignore it
14:53 deshipu yeah, in Japan you show power and status differently
14:54 Asshazie How so
14:54 Asshazie :D
14:54 deshipu mostly by behavior
14:55 deshipu but there is also that thing, that you don't really need to show off your status so much, because it mostly comes with age
14:55 deshipu I mean, an older man will almost always have a higher status than a younger man
14:56 deshipu promotions are automatic
14:57 deshipu of course, a big house and new volvo are also signs of status, but they are less important, sometimes even considering petty
14:57 Asshazie That's interesting
14:57 deshipu there are monks in the buddhist temples who own nothing besides their begging bowl
14:57 Asshazie Here, the quality of your house and car pretty much single you out as a have or a have-not
14:57 deshipu they are not allowed to keep any other posessions
14:58 Asshazie But that's just the crowd I was born into..
14:58 Asshazie I guess
14:58 Asshazie I'm American by the way.
14:58 deshipu every day they have to go into the city and "earn their keep" for the day
14:58 deshipu but some of them are *very* respected
14:58 Asshazie I'd respect someone who lived such a disciplined life.
14:58 deshipu and people really make sure that they have food and shelter every day
14:59 deshipu it's a very nice system, because when people stop needing the priest, or his services are not very good, he has to move on to survive
14:59 deshipu to a place where he is needed more
15:00 deshipu of course, it's not so nice for the monks
15:01 Asshazie Yeah competition has terrible effects on the "weak"
15:01 Asshazie Interesting how it still exists in that way in Japan
15:01 Asshazie economic competition, I mean.
15:02 Asshazie Hey, I didn't mean to offend you by saying Japan was anti-social
15:02 deshipu nah
15:02 Asshazie If I did
15:02 deshipu it's just a judgement call from your point of view, which is fine
15:02 deshipu but you have to remember that it's not "absolute"
15:02 Asshazie That's remarkably tolerant of you to be willing to work with me
15:03 deshipu asian cultures are more concerned with "fitting in" than "freedom", for instance
15:03 deshipu a "free" man is someone who lost the respect of his peers
15:03 deshipu Asshazie: I'm Polish, not Japanese, by the way
15:04 devshark alright, go eastern bloc :)
15:04 deshipu Asshazie: so most of what I'm saying about Japan is preconceptions too
15:04 deshipu never been there, know only some distant acquitances who live there, etc.
15:05 deshipu but depending on how you look at it, they may be even more social than the Americans, as the society is more important in their lives
15:06 devshark like a true anthill.
15:07 deshipu yeah, it's scary :)
15:08 deshipu but for me, the western cultures are as exaggerated into the opposite direction of the cult of an individual
15:08 deshipu with the myth of that shoe-cleaner who becomes a millionaire thanks to his hard work
15:10 Asshazie Well, that is the hallmark of a capitalist society
15:10 Asshazie It's a downside that we have people who are resistant to give up their high positions
15:10 Asshazie or create new ones
15:10 Asshazie So the shoecleaner eventually has to settle for a job at Walmart
15:10 Asshazie and convince himself that he's gotten somewhere in life
15:10 Asshazie by having that job
15:11 deshipu the idea that you have to have a job or you are nothing is also peculiar, if you look at it from a distance :)
15:12 deshipu and I think it will erode soon
15:12 devshark every reich so far collapsed into itself, thanks to themselves.
15:12 devshark so, it's a matter of time really...
15:13 deshipu nature hates stasis :)
15:13 Asshazie That's odd
15:14 Asshazie Everyone has to feel useful and utile
15:14 Asshazie To say that a person can't value themselves unless they have a job rides against the cherished model we have of a productive citizen
15:14 deshipu but a job is not the only way
15:14 Asshazie Something that seems to be inherent even in mother nature
15:14 Asshazie The ants
15:14 Asshazie the birds
15:14 Asshazie All organizational societies follow this rule
15:15 Asshazie *can
15:15 Asshazie Sorry, to say that a person CAN value themselves
15:16 Asshazie I mean it's puzzling to imagine how any society could continue if the people were allowed to have self worth without serving the greater system in some way
15:16 Asshazie It'd be lazy, and probably dystopian because the people wouldn't have much to preoccupy their time apart from satisfying their primal needs
15:17 Asshazie and thanks to labor saving technologies that we discovered in the 20'th century that part's already done for us lol
15:18 Asshazie How would any society like that even work?
15:18 Asshazie OH, I'll tell you how
15:18 shazie grins at des
15:18 Asshazie robots
15:18 deshipu that's a question that we will need to answer in the next 20 years
15:18 shazie does a song and d
15:19 Asshazie I think they'll just create meaningless jobs to keep us docile
15:19 Asshazie almost like what goes on now
15:19 Asshazie either that or machines will handle most of the work and people will fall into decadent hedonism
15:19 Asshazie and our society will wither away as the ancient Roman empire had
15:20 Asshazie That's another path because if you look at it, America is a pretty hedonistic society as it is
15:20 Asshazie As most developed societies tend to be (Not minding your Japanese monks and ascetics)
15:21 Asshazie Maybe people will "smart up" by then
15:21 Asshazie I figure they'll have to eventually see that happiness and pleasure are overrated
15:22 Asshazie and Epicurus was right in his way of explaining that the true road to satisfaction is just the removal of suffering, not the chasing of pleasure and cheap thrills
15:22 Asshazie I think Siddartha claimed that himself actually
15:23 Asshazie Anyway, inb4 Epicurianism is the true school of thought and hedophobic tendencies save the world!
15:23 Asshazie but
15:23 Asshazie Hedonism drives the economy
15:23 Asshazie (So which is it?) lol
15:33 _TK_ He*onism would be just fooling one-selves.
15:36 Asshazie ?
16:27 deshipu Asshazie: well, I think that many people will find something worthwhile for them to do, and the 5% who can't would be jobless anyways
16:27 deshipu Asshazie: also, with all those resources available, you can afford most people being unproductive
16:29 devshark deshipu - sortof thanks to outsourcing.
16:30 deshipu devshark: well, it will improve
16:30 devshark meh, i dont really mind it as it is right now.
16:30 deshipu thanks to *robots*! :D
16:30 devshark hahah
16:31 devshark funny thing, since coders and ... roboticists? are pretty much always working to put themselves out of jobs.
16:31 deshipu same as doctors or firefighters
16:32 devshark not quite the same.
16:32 deshipu come to think of it, only lawyers are the opposite
16:32 devshark oh wow, and "managers" aren't the first thing that popped in your mind? :D
16:33 deshipu no, because the ones that are good are also coming up with ways to organize things so that they have less managing
16:33 Asshazie The rest will manage
16:33 deshipu while lawyers are constantly looking for ways to involve themselves with more activities
16:33 devshark or something more simple as "anyone that doesn't actually *produce* something and heavily depend on other people to do the work while they just tell them what to do"
16:34 deshipu devshark: that's the thing, people instinctively don't like to depend on anyone
16:34 devshark true.
16:34 devshark and that being said - "good luck to those people pioneering on Mars, they'll need it"
16:34 deshipu so unless you can convince them that their jobs are needed...
16:37 devshark looking at it that way, the only *needed* jobs are farmers, no?
16:37 devshark ok, fishermen too.
16:37 devshark and cowboys :D
16:38 Asshazie We can replace em with robots
16:39 stoopkid devshark: doctors are kinda necessary
16:39 Asshazie what a heartless thing to sa-
16:39 Asshazie lol
16:39 Asshazie What, so everyone just dies of infections? lol
16:40 Asshazie that's a bit darwinistic
16:40 stoopkid thats why we need doctors
16:41 deshipu you will always need waiters, haircutters, priests
16:41 deshipu the whole service sector
16:41 Tom_itx no you can do without them
16:41 deshipu sure you can, but you won't
16:41 Tom_itx i won't?
16:41 deshipu we already have a hair-cutting robot
16:42 deshipu it's a pretty nifty design, with a vacuum build in
16:42 deshipu but your wife will want an original haircut done by a human artist
16:42 Tom_itx can it carry on a decent conversation with you while it's being cut?
16:42 deshipu exactly :)
16:42 deshipu humans need humans
16:42 deshipu we are social animals
16:43 deshipu and also we have hierarchy in our instincts
16:43 deshipu so there will always be those with higher status and those with lower
16:43 Asshazie not really
16:43 Asshazie they'll eventually just remove these instincts from us
16:43 deshipu but hopefully those with the lowest status still will have enough resources to live comfortably
16:44 Asshazie Hawking recently gave an interview where he said that humans have to have these jealous aggressive tendencies wired out of them if we hope to continue
16:44 Asshazie In his "Theory of Everything"
16:44 deshipu Asshazie: then it won't be humans anymore
16:44 Asshazie The Brave New World is upon us
16:44 Asshazie We'll be engineered to be tolerant of everyone and everything
16:44 Asshazie prepare for your soma coma
16:44 deshipu nah
16:45 deshipu I think we rather actually go extinct
16:45 veverak MORE RAMS
16:45 verak got chris
16:45 Asshazie You downloaded more rams
16:45 Asshazie ?
16:45 deshipu also bulls
16:45 deshipu and other hooved animals
16:45 Asshazie holy cow
16:45 veverak nope
16:45 veverak buyed :D
16:46 deshipu bought
16:46 veverak yeah O:)
16:46 veverak anyway
16:46 veverak 12 vs 4 feels different
16:46 deshipu yeah, English will become much more regular in a few years
16:46 Asshazie But we can't continue to live in close proximity if humans continue to be aggressive deshipu
16:47 deshipu Asshazie: maybe we will spread then?
16:47 Asshazie Manifestations of this show themselves in the random spree killings we have across the world'
16:47 deshipu Asshazie: or otherwise reduce our own numbers, so that we have enough space again?
16:47 Asshazie We'll have to unite under a federation of common customs and traditions
16:47 Asshazie until we all conglomerate into a NWO
16:47 deshipu please not
16:47 Asshazie completely losing any trace of what we were in the past
16:47 Asshazie culturally, nationally, racially
16:47 Asshazie hehe
16:48 deshipu the problem with monolithic cultures like this is
16:48 deshipu anything changes, and all of it dies, because it's all suspectible to the same thing
16:48 Asshazie deshipu: Antinatalism only works on paper but people are strictly against it in practice
16:48 deshipu with a lot of small different cultures, there are always some that survive
16:48 Asshazie People will never decide to raise the Crude Death Rate and lower the CBR
16:48 deshipu Asshazie: well, the birth rate is steadily declining
16:49 Asshazie They'll just continue to fornicate and give birth until we get more and more dense
16:49 Asshazie What do you mean, anything changes? :P
16:49 deshipu you are the cancer of this planet, we are the cure :P
16:49 deshipu Asshazie: perhaps this can also be solved with robots :)
16:50 Asshazie hahahaha
16:51 Asshazie an NWO is the convergent governmental structure of the future
16:51 Asshazie most futurists will agree
16:51 Asshazie I see soooo many intellectuals on TV predicting that it'll happen
16:52 Asshazie Michio Kaku, Ray Kurzweil, I've even heard NDT suggest it once in an interview
16:52 Asshazie And Claude Shannon himself says he's rooting for a robotic take-over
16:52 Asshazie in an old issue of Omni
16:53 deshipu you know, all this singularity stuff
16:53 Asshazie Funny how many of these uni profs seem to share the view that an amalgamate of a NWO state is good for all of us
16:53 deshipu I've read recently "The Red Queen"
16:53 Asshazie It'd certainly reduce on the fightign
16:53 Asshazie *fighting
16:53 deshipu it's a nice book about how various features and behaviors might have evolved in animals and humans
16:53 deshipu for instance, gender
16:54 deshipu or mating rituals
16:54 deshipu etc.
16:54 deshipu at the end of the book, the author wonders how come our brains evolved so big in such a short time, while all other apes practically didn't change at all in that time
16:54 Asshazie I
16:54 Asshazie I've always wondered why the genders were binary
16:55 Asshazie Why aren't humans asexual :P
16:55 deshipu Asshazie: becuase of parasites
16:55 deshipu Asshazie: it's fascinating, actually
16:55 ace4016 it's the radiation and alien science experiments
16:55 deshipu that too
16:55 deshipu anyways, back to brains
16:56 deshipu so he proposes a completely unfunded theory, without any proof, but with a lot of parallels to the mechanisms from the rest of the book
16:56 deshipu you see, birds often have various parts of anatomy that are only used for attracting mates
16:57 deshipu they are usually very costly to keep up, and deteriorate with any sign of health or development problems
16:57 deshipu so that the partners can pick the ones with the best genes
16:57 deshipu an example of that is peacock's tail
16:57 deshipu or rooster's red crown
16:58 deshipu he proposes that in humans brains play that role
16:58 deshipu both men and women prefer partners that are intelligent, charismatic, charming and talented
16:59 deshipu if that's true, then all of the, so called, human culture: all the art, science and technology
16:59 deshipu are just one big mating ritual
16:59 deshipu and of course we thing they are the most important and worthy things in the world
16:59 deshipu just as a peacock would think that about his tail
16:59 deshipu but
17:00 deshipu build a strong AI that transcends this human instinct
17:00 deshipu and you can no longer tell what it will pursue and if it will value intelligence and wisdom just for the sake of it, like we do
17:01 deshipu we take it for granted that it will try to improve itself, because that's what we would do
17:01 deshipu but you really can't tell
17:01 Asshazie Intelligence is just a complex system formed by a collection of algorithms operating in parallel
17:01 Asshazie That's the best way to describe it using the words of this day and age.
17:01 deshipu doesn't matter how you do it :)
17:01 Asshazie I'm sure we'll habitually find better words to use <3
17:01 Asshazie Heh
17:02 Asshazie So you're saying the meaning of all of this is to just find mates
17:02 deshipu as soon as you have a self-modifying ai, all bets are off
17:02 Asshazie (or self replicating)
17:02 deshipu Asshazie: well, that's how evolution works, more or less
17:02 deshipu I mean, there are individuals with other goals
17:02 deshipu and they reach them or not
17:03 deshipu but they don't pass on their tendency to reach those goals
17:03 deshipu while the ones who have a tendency to extend their bloodline, will pass that tendency to their children
17:03 deshipu and it's a positive feedback system
17:04 Asshazie Yes.
17:04 Asshazie I want to ask you..
17:04 Asshazie Hehe
17:05 Asshazie What do you think intelligence really is?
17:05 deshipu depends on the context, that word has many meanings
17:05 deshipu also, I think that intelligence is not as important as consciousness is
17:06 deshipu but while we have some approximate methods of measuring intelligence, at least in humans, we completely fail at detecting consciousness
17:06 deshipu from what I can tell, everybody around me may be just mindless zombies, acting in a programmed way
17:07 veverak that would be actually awesome
17:07 veverak you could open their brains without any...
17:08 deshipu veverak: yeah, and see thsoe gnomes that actually control them
17:08 Asshazie You sound like a solipsist
17:08 Asshazie That's neat
17:08 Asshazie Everything around you is fake.
17:08 Asshazie Except for yourself.
17:08 deshipu I'm not saying it's true, I'm just saying I have no way to tell
17:08 Asshazie True.
17:09 deshipu I have to take in on faith
17:09 Asshazie I believe that intelligence is the ability for a human being to satisfy goals for survival.
17:09 Asshazie When this ability is disrupted, people usually become frustrated
17:09 Asshazie and engage in other goals that give them the same amount of pleasure with less effort
17:09 Asshazie IE: Entertainment, TV, Snacks and Soft Drinks, Sports
17:10 Asshazie Not to knock these things.
17:10 deshipu but then, we have some animals, like cocroaches, who also can satisfy their goals for survival, and pretty well, yet we don't consider them particularly intelligent
17:10 Asshazie But the ones who follow these mindless surrogate activities aren't intelligent
17:10 Asshazie The ones who strive for the goal of power over this world are intelligent
17:10 Asshazie But they have to know what the power is for
17:10 deshipu Asshazie: see, you are doing a judgement call there
17:11 deshipu Asshazie: you are assuming that self-improvement is valuable and desired
17:11 Asshazie Because even a blind chauvinistic search for pleasure isn't intelligent, it's like a mindless soldier who obsesses about guns he'll never use
17:11 Asshazie Well, I assume the only objective truth in this world is that the purpose of it is competition
17:11 Asshazie That's how evolution works
17:11 deshipu not quite
17:11 Asshazie We've all been sent here to compete with each other, it's a game.
17:11 deshipu there is as much cooperation in evolution as competition
17:12 Asshazie cooperation is competition in larger numbers.
17:12 deshipu also, it's not we who are competing
17:12 Asshazie :P
17:12 deshipu it's our genes
17:12 veverak deshipu: yeah, you can find those in bulbs too
17:12 deshipu your survival after you spawn a child has no impact on evolution, for instance
17:13 Asshazie Yes it does. Because you have the capability to spawn more.
17:13 deshipu except maybe as a protector of that child
17:13 Asshazie The longer you live, the longer you can do these things.
17:13 deshipu except you become infertile at some point
17:13 Asshazie And you can also continue to eat up resources and fight even after you've left your childbearing days
17:13 deshipu but you still live on, why?
17:14 Asshazie Continuing to compete well after your time, ensuring that new competitors have to remain at the top of their game
17:14 Asshazie It was said at the funeral of Caesar that the evil that men do lives on much longer than they do
17:14 deshipu some old frail grampas are no competition
17:14 Asshazie They have a family around them that protects them.
17:14 Asshazie And they've done enough in their lifetimes to enforce their ideals on the world that new competitors are born into
17:15 Asshazie Don't take what I'm saying as objective truth
17:15 Asshazie It's just what I see
17:15 deshipu again, why? it makes no sense from the point of view of just passing on your genes
17:15 deshipu the family could compete better if it didn't have to take care of the old members
17:15 veverak what is our meaning anyway?
17:15 Asshazie Because it isn't as simple as passing on your genes
17:16 Asshazie That's only one area of the cycle of genetic evolution
17:16 Asshazie There's a book by a man known as Paul Ramsay, called Fabricated Man
17:16 deshipu what are the others?
17:16 Asshazie In it, he explains that genetic transmission is just a vehicle for the greater movement of ensuring that the primal lifeforms come into being
17:16 Asshazie That's the true goal of all of this competition
17:17 Asshazie To create an ideal creature that can perform some task eventually, the task we still don't know
17:17 deshipu Asshazie: he's an ethicist
17:17 Asshazie He advocates for eugenics.
17:17 deshipu Asshazie: he doesn't do research, he just thinks of cool things to write about
17:18 Asshazie You've read this novel?
17:18 Asshazie :O
17:18 deshipu no, I'm readng his biography :)
17:18 Asshazie Oh..
17:18 Asshazie I respect his views because he seems to be surveying a series of sources that I don't have the time to cover right now
17:18 deshipu so, eugenics won't work, for the same reason why monolithic cultures fail
17:19 Asshazie The field of eugenics is rich with influential writers.
17:19 Asshazie I wish I had more time.. I usually just pick up books written by people who've read most of the field.
17:19 Asshazie Why do you say that?
17:19 deshipu you see, as soon as you take evolution in your hands and start "breeding" yourself
17:20 Asshazie Eugenics has its own merit of breaking the degenerate genes that plague our race back
17:20 deshipu you start selecting for features that you for some reason find desirable
17:20 Asshazie Removing the defects that retard the progress of the gene-pool
17:20 deshipu and not for the features that actually improve survival
17:20 Asshazie Well see
17:20 deshipu but
17:20 deshipu it's a random process
17:20 Asshazie You're describing a "trust' of genetic transmission
17:20 Asshazie Yeah, that's bad
17:21 deshipu you never know if there is some sudden change, like the climate change we have now, that will make the individuals who are now weak actually better adapted
17:21 Asshazie But Ramsay and most eugenicists agree that the fear associated with eugenics should be tacked onto who makes the decisions
17:21 deshipu you are removing variety from your gene pool
17:21 Asshazie You shouldn't hope that all of eugenics is bad because of the people who have control of it
17:21 deshipu it's like buying fewer tickets on a lottery
17:21 Asshazie If that's your reason, then governments can be scary too
17:22 Asshazie Since a government with the wrong regime can be just as threatening as any eugenic movement
17:22 Asshazie You're terrified of the people who make calls
17:22 deshipu sure
17:23 Asshazie brb
17:23 deshipu we've learned from the communist "planned economy" that the waterfall model of decision making doesn't really work
17:23 deshipu sooner or later you will make a mistake, and you have all your eggs in one basket
17:25 Asshazie alright
17:25 Asshazie I'm back
17:25 Asshazie but
17:25 Asshazie The less people a decision has to go through
17:25 Asshazie The less people a dollar has to go through
17:26 Asshazie The less corruption usually affects the topic at hand
17:26 deshipu it's not about the length of the decission chain, it's about diversity
17:26 Asshazie I'd argue and say that even decisions made between Obama and Congress reflect this
17:26 Asshazie Because both parties are acting in their own interests.
17:27 deshipu you need a lot of different approaches -- some of the will fail, some will hit the spot and thrive
17:27 Asshazie Obama really identifies with the poor because he fights his own personal battles with the egotism that he's a
17:27 Asshazie "just", "moral", person
17:27 deshipu and you really can't tell in advance which are whcih
17:27 deshipu which
17:27 Asshazie and most of Congress is too conservative to let anything pass anyway
17:27 deshipu it's like rapid prototyping
17:27 Asshazie They like where they're at
17:27 Asshazie Waterfall, rapid-prototyping
17:27 Asshazie Ah, so you're a software engineer?
17:28 deshipu sure, and I do Scrum :P
17:28 Asshazie I'm only trying to say that Eugenics has merits once the gene pool has been mapped out
17:28 deshipu there is actually a family of algorithms, called evolutionary
17:29 Asshazie Until then I actually advocate for the strata of cultural and racial genes
17:29 deshipu which are based on a similar idea to natural evolution, only you set the "survival criteria" to fit your own goals
17:29 Asshazie IE: Separation not on an ideological basis but on a scientific one
17:29 Asshazie This is usually called scientific racism
17:29 deshipu Asshazie: it's not just about genes
17:29 deshipu Asshazie: the thing is, even if you have absolute control over the genes
17:29 deshipu Asshazie: you have no way of telling what your children will need
17:29 Asshazie Because the human traits that we've evolved with, IE: Emotion, are holding back and retarding any scientific progress
17:30 ace4016 no they're not :P
17:30 Asshazie People are incredibly liberal on this topic, yet are progressive in all other form of science
17:30 deshipu emotion is a very useful and needed thing
17:30 ace4016 that's bullshit that sciencey people like to tout
17:30 Asshazie I don't believe so
17:30 deshipu you couldn't live without emotions
17:30 Asshazie You could.
17:30 deshipu you wouldn't survive a day
17:30 Asshazie You would have to live in a radically different environment
17:30 Asshazie Without existential threats.
17:31 Asshazie A Brave New World, perhaps
17:31 Asshazie I'd probably say
17:31 deshipu and even then you would be easily outcompeted by people who have emotions
17:31 deshipu you see, emotions are heuristics
17:31 Asshazie Most people would be engineered to not have emotions
17:31 ace4016 it's not emotions that retards scientific progress. it's much simpler than that
17:31 Asshazie And most of these people would belong to the primary and secondary sectors of our economy
17:31 Asshazie The rest who would have emotions would have them controlled and would belong to scientific advancement
17:32 Asshazie Probably through medication somehow.
17:32 Asshazie Ideally
17:32 Asshazie I don't like liberals, see
17:32 Asshazie I think they're just a nuisance
17:32 deshipu those kind of systems tend to destabilize into a positive feedback loop
17:32 Asshazie You yourself claimed that genetic transmission is a positive feedback loop
17:32 deshipu yup
17:33 deshipu fed with actual environment
17:33 deshipu that is, grounded in reality
17:33 deshipu the problem begins when your loop starts spinning independently of hard facts
17:33 Asshazie Which facts?
17:34 Asshazie Hohoho
17:34 deshipu the reality catches up with it sooner or later, and the crash is not pleasant
17:34 Asshazie I don't believe in objective reality
17:34 Asshazie Your factual systems won't work on me
17:34 deshipu well, objective reality is experimentally demonstrable
17:34 Asshazie Anything can be changed or hidden
17:34 deshipu as soon as you question that, you have no scientific method to go by
17:34 deshipu no way of reasoning
17:34 Asshazie Meaning lies at the perceptual level
17:35 deshipu so we have do make some assumptions
17:35 Asshazie No you see, you're suggesting exactly what the liberal yuppies do
17:35 Asshazie They throw logic and reason out of the window because they think nothing can be solved through clear, rational, scientific calculation
17:35 Asshazie and take an orgiastic tone toward seeing the world
17:35 Asshazie I'm not invalidating any form of scientific axioms
17:36 Asshazie I'm only saying that science is falsifiable, and axioms themselves are only baseless assumptions
17:36 Asshazie Sure science works
17:36 deshipu wait, first you say that you don't believe in reality, and then you say that I'm the one who is dismissing science?
17:36 Asshazie But I don't live by it
17:36 Asshazie I'm only saying that though I believe in it, I don't consider it to be an objective truth
17:36 Asshazie This can be debated sanely
17:36 Asshazie Between us
17:37 stoopkid science only applies to certain domains of reality
17:37 Asshazie I mean, it was you before who mentioned that you question whether or not people outside of your head exist?
17:37 deshipu well, I believe that there is an objective truth (because that assumption lets me make useful predictions about the future), but I don't claim I know it
17:37 Asshazie Sounds like subjective solipsism to me
17:37 Asshazie The only objective truth is that we are meant to compete
17:37 Asshazie And even this truth will erode with time
17:38 deshipu it doesn't matter if it "really" exists, as long as my predictions work for me
17:38 deshipu Asshazie: that actually sounds like nazism, sorry to say that
17:38 Asshazie What, supporting eugenics?
17:38 Asshazie You see, that's exactly the reason why people fear it.
17:39 Asshazie Up until the Nazis came into power, America, Canada, and the UK engaged in it.
17:39 deshipu no, assuming that the only "real" meaning is competition and that the goal of universe is the creation of ubermensch
17:39 Asshazie It was defeated by a display of "one-upsmanship" after we convicted the remaining Nazis at Nuremberg
17:39 Asshazie Many countries removed their eugenics policies
17:39 Asshazie Even America
17:40 Asshazie just so they could seem as if they were "remote" from the Nazis
17:40 Asshazie Stop attributing eugenics to the Nazis
17:40 Asshazie They didn't invent or even discover it
17:40 Asshazie They were just one group of people who created a regime around it
17:40 deshipu Asshazie: well, the holocaust is actually a nice example of what happens if you try to "plan" things too much
17:40 Asshazie It can do good things
17:40 stoopkid that's true the eugenics movement was around since the late 1800s
17:40 Asshazie That was the Nazis
17:40 deshipu Asshazie: you start making decisions based on some philosophy du jour, instead of hard facts
17:41 Asshazie don't tie that to Eugenics
17:41 Asshazie That was the NAZIS.
17:41 deshipu Asshazie: it's inevitable sooner or later that you will lock yourself in a bubble of false information
17:41 deshipu and your actions will become more and more disconnected
17:41 ace4016 how do you decide who to euthenize?
17:41 Asshazie If you show a caveman a stick on fire
17:41 Asshazie and burn him
17:41 deshipu ace4016: with politics, of course
17:41 Asshazie And he's never had prior experience with fire
17:42 Asshazie He won't fear you
17:42 Asshazie He'll fear the fire
17:42 Asshazie I think you're engaging in this very primitive form of thinking
17:42 Asshazie I hate to say it
17:42 deshipu Asshazie: that;s not how associative memory works
17:42 ace4016 i mean, a lot of scientist that have helped advance their field would have been euthenized before they got the chance to do so, due to all the issues a lot of them have
17:42 ace4016 so...
17:42 Asshazie Are you sure, you aren't being rational here, you're blaming a methodology of population control over what some German nutcases did with it
17:43 deshipu Asshazie: he will actually fear you, the fire, the time of day when it happened, the thing he did just before it happened, etc.
17:43 stoopkid in some places people support eugenics of themselves
17:43 Asshazie Alright, so you fear Nazis
17:43 Asshazie but you also incorrectly fear Eugenics
17:43 stoopkid as in erasing their own people from the population
17:43 Asshazie I'm trying to tell you that you shouldn't
17:43 stoopkid have you heard of Semipalatinsk nuclear test site in kazakhstan? (also known as the polygon)
17:43 deshipu Asshazie: remember the recent world bank affair
17:43 Asshazie Why do you attach such a rich meaning to life?
17:44 deshipu Asshazie: I think the same thing would happend with whatever organization would set the policies for eugenics, sooner or later
17:44 Asshazie Why do you think that everyone needs to live? This is precisely the emotional bleeding I'm referring to
17:44 ace4016 my problem with centralized control when it comes to humans is, how do i know they're making the right choice? a scientific calculation can be just as wrong as a ranodom guess. not to mention, is it really worth the effort?
17:44 Asshazie It wouldn't.
17:44 deshipu random things happen
17:44 Asshazie People have to first be engineered to have emotions and aggression removed from them
17:45 Asshazie Then they lose their biases
17:45 deshipu even if your calculations were right 99% of the time
17:45 stoopkid Asshazie: not everyone needs to live but nobody should be in charge of such a decision i think
17:45 deshipu that 1% adds up
17:45 Asshazie Then Eugenics will happen on a logical foundation
17:45 deshipu stoopkid: agreed
17:45 Asshazie I mean, okay, most of the "degenerate" strata we have nowadays have their merits
17:45 stoopkid who are these degenerate strata you refer to?
17:45 Asshazie People with Down's Syndrome have Tumor Suppressor Genes
17:45 Asshazie Africans have a lower rate of skin cancer
17:46 ace4016 what purpose would that really serve? so that we can have better smart phones and live longer so that we can become long term customers?
17:46 Asshazie I'm not advocating killing on these bases
17:46 deshipu ok, I'm done here
17:46 Asshazie Ugh
17:46 deshipu sorry, this is getting ridiculous :)
17:46 stoopkid people with down syndrome... africans... same strata
17:46 deshipu and we hit and passed the Godwin's law already
17:46 deshipu also, it's late and I have to go to sleep
17:46 Asshazie stoopkid, be realistic, these are social degenerates in America
17:46 deshipu thanks for the talk guys!
17:46 Asshazie you can try to deceive yourself
17:46 Asshazie but its true
17:46 ace4016 lol
17:47 stoopkid i think you're the social degenerate
17:47 Asshazie We just don't say it
17:47 deshipu Asshazie: it's like the insurgents/terrorists
17:47 stoopkid who thinks somebody should be in charge of other people's lives
17:47 deshipu Asshazie: the history is written by the winners, but nobody can tell who actually was right
17:47 Asshazie deshipu: I feel you're finding a civil excuse to say I'm offending you to the point of leaving
17:47 Asshazie I fear that isn't your true reason for leaving
17:47 Asshazie I'm not trying to offend anyone here.
17:48 Asshazie I'm just devoid of emotion and I can see things clearly
17:48 Asshazie I'm sorry but this is what needs to happen.
17:48 stoopkid eugenics?
17:48 stoopkid of who?
17:48 deshipu Asshazie: not offending, really, but I don't see a point in further discussing this, as we clearly disagree and won't convince ourselves
17:48 Asshazie Those who hold back progress.
17:48 ace4016 so clearly that you think people from a continent bigger than any single nation are lumped into one "people"
17:48 stoopkid who holds back progress?
17:48 stoopkid republicans?
17:48 Asshazie It changes from time to time
17:49 deshipu what even is "progress"?
17:49 deshipu we usually define it retroactively as the change from how it was before
17:49 Asshazie Technological progress and the working toward unifying all people under a federated state
17:49 Asshazie Monolithic with the ability to serve the needs of all
17:49 Asshazie and defend against all threats, whether global or existential
17:49 deshipu but the next generation can turn on a dime and call our time the dark ages, and their new direction progress
17:49 Asshazie Doing what's in the interest of all of mankind
17:50 Asshazie Not what's in the interest of the strong-hearted, weak-minded liberal scum
17:50 deshipu look at the Dark Ages -- we say they were technologically regressing, but they were actually advancing a lot spiritually
17:50 stoopkid Asshazie: i agree that it would be in there interests of mankind if people got on board with that but if you try to force a regime on the people you're nothing but a dark age, holding back the progress that individual liberty has provided us
17:50 deshipu it just so happens that right now we put the technological progress higher than spiritual
17:50 deshipu but the medieval people would disagree
17:51 deshipu they would claim they are more advanced
17:51 Asshazie I'm not fighting against liberty
17:51 Asshazie I'm fighting freedom
17:51 deshipu you are fighting?
17:51 Asshazie Freedom is a highly glorified concept that allows those who have more influence or power against the weak.
17:51 Asshazie Yeah, someone has to
17:51 deshipu building an army of robots?
17:51 stoopkid Asshazie: technological progress is rooted in individual freedoms
17:51 stoopkid Asshazie: look at Copernicus
17:52 deshipu few people remember that Copernicus was a bishop
17:52 Asshazie Yes, people with spare time to do things come up with innovative ideas. Sure
17:52 Asshazie We don't need this anymore though
17:52 Asshazie We have machines that can check multiple configurations for real world items millions of times a second
17:52 stoopkid Asshazie: lol okay how can you justify such a claim
17:53 Asshazie and algorithms that can classify these configurations
17:53 stoopkid so?
17:53 stoopkid what does that get you?
17:53 Asshazie Creativity can be done by machines
17:53 stoopkid lol no it can't
17:53 Asshazie What can a human do
17:53 Asshazie That a machine can't
17:53 Asshazie Emote?
17:53 Asshazie What does that get you?
17:53 Asshazie Warfare
17:53 stoopkid all kinds of things
17:54 Asshazie Genetic degradation of the gene pool over being too concerned sensitive and caring about the needs of the degenerates
17:54 Asshazie Just let them die
17:54 stoopkid humans and their consciousnesses are the only reason the universe matters
17:54 Asshazie They're a plague to our species
17:54 ace4016 that arguement...i've seen it made many times and always...do they forget the positives
17:54 Asshazie Stop trying to cure people with cancer
17:54 Asshazie Just let them die
17:54 Asshazie Ugh
17:54 ace4016 convieniently forget the positives so that their point makes sense
17:54 Asshazie I can't even
17:55 Asshazie What is consciousness?
17:55 deshipu Asshazie: would you say the same thing if you had cancer?
17:55 Asshazie YES.
17:55 stoopkid Asshazie: the only reason we do anything
17:55 Asshazie It's only logical!
17:55 stoopkid it's entirely illogical
17:56 Asshazie Maybe my lack of empathy is placing me somewhere where we all can't agree
17:56 stoopkid you just have ridiculous naive notions of what is the point of life
17:56 Asshazie But I assure you that if the liberals would just shut their mouths and people would just be removed on having deleterious genes then our progress would happen at a much faster apce.
17:56 Asshazie *pace
17:57 Asshazie It's all competition. You're emoting too much stoopkid.
17:57 stoopkid Asshazie: maybe if the liberals opened their mouths more, stem cell research could have progressed further and we'd be further on the road towards genetic therapies
17:58 Asshazie Let me go back
17:58 Asshazie I shouldn't say liberals
17:58 Asshazie People on the left.
17:58 ace4016 because all illnesses are caused by genetics, and no illness has been caused by technological advancement
17:58 Asshazie Those usually stand against stem-cell therapies because they see values of life even in zygotes and unborn babies
17:58 stoopkid Asshazie: cancer and other genetic disorders will one day be a thing of the past, they are already working on this with viral gene therapy solutions
17:59 Asshazie There are many illnesses caused by infectious viruses, but many resistances to these illnesses can be caused by genetics.
17:59 stoopkid Asshazie: that's usually people on the right
17:59 Asshazie You see
17:59 Asshazie All you'll be successful in doing is covering up cancer and the deeper reasons for why it occurs
18:00 stoopkid Asshazie: you seem to see no value in people, and that's pretty sad, and it makes me wonder what exactly is your value
18:00 Asshazie Only to have a new illness emerge.
18:00 Asshazie People are only the tools to forward the competition
18:00 stoopkid Asshazie: what competition?
18:00 Asshazie They have no more meaning than that
18:00 Asshazie myself included
18:00 ace4016 what about the causes being technological?
18:00 ace4016 what happens then?
18:00 stoopkid Asshazie: this competition is all in your mind
18:01 stoopkid ace4016: well, theoretically there could be a technological cure
18:01 Asshazie ace4016: Not everyone dies of cancet
18:01 Asshazie *cancer
18:01 ace4016 but you can't find that if you kill off everyone that has cancer
18:01 ace4016 or rather, let them die
18:01 Asshazie Whoa
18:01 Asshazie I never said kill them
18:01 stoopkid indeed
18:01 Asshazie I just said deny treatment.
18:02 Asshazie Just give them palliative care.
18:02 stoopkid yea, that way we never figure out a cure to cancer
18:02 stoopkid oh, and we should have never figured out the polio vaccine
18:02 Asshazie We'll have no need. We'll evolve past it and all other illnesses like it.
18:02 Asshazie Ugh
18:02 stoopkid we're past the point of evolution my friend
18:02 Asshazie Why do you think competition is all in my head?
18:03 ace4016 unless the entire human population really can't evolve fast enough to gain immunities to all technological advancements...
18:03 Asshazie You want something.
18:03 Asshazie Someone stronger than you wants something.
18:03 stoopkid yes we change the world too quickly for evolution to matter
18:03 Asshazie The stronger guy kills you.
18:03 stoopkid any natural evolution is within an artificial world we've designed
18:03 Asshazie He then rapes your wife.
18:03 Asshazie Future generations will have genes based on the stronger guy.
18:03 Asshazie That's how life works.
18:03 Asshazie Its a competition.
18:03 stoopkid that's why we have societies
18:03 stoopkid so that life isn't like that
18:03 Asshazie The world is getting too liberal for me.
18:03 Asshazie Look read this:
18:04 Asshazie "Industrial Society and its effects on the Future"
18:04 Asshazie By Theodore Kaczynski
18:04 stoopkid what about it
18:04 Asshazie It explains in great detail why the thoughts you have
18:04 Asshazie are only corruptions of your natural human drives
18:04 stoopkid Ted Kaczynski doesn't know anything about what goes on in my head
18:04 Asshazie Given to you by society just so that you can express "social" behavior
18:04 stoopkid and if you think he does you're as crazy as he is
18:05 Asshazie He's the only person who makes sense these days
18:05 Asshazie In an insane world
18:05 Asshazie Liberalism is insanity
18:05 Asshazie You're all ruining the species
18:05 Asshazie Damn it
18:05 stoopkid what is your proposed solution
18:06 ace4016 it'd probably pain you to hear some of the theories about how "weaker" individuals continued to survive. yes, it is all about survival of the fittest...fit doesn't always mena what you think it is though
18:06 Asshazie Kaczynski was conservative in the sense that he hoped to reverse society to the retrograde state of preindustrial society
18:06 Asshazie I'm too progressive for that.
18:06 Asshazie I hope to build a strong federation of unified nation-states
18:06 Asshazie Who then align themselves into one conglomerate NWO
18:07 Asshazie Where an authority that has no bias oversees genetic transmission
18:07 Asshazie Similar to what the Nazis did sure
18:07 stoopkid Asshazie: see, 65 million years ago, you would have been the guy rooting for the T-rex, but it was the rodent that survived the catastrophe
18:07 Asshazie But it won't be founded on idiotic racism
18:07 Asshazie It'll be based on proven facts as to how the degenerates harm the species
18:08 Asshazie Nations will only exist to preserve the strata
18:08 Asshazie People with similar genes will be kept separate for study
18:08 Asshazie and mixing will only be allowed once it can be verified as being useful to progress
18:08 stoopkid Asshazie: did you know intelligence developed through the survival of the weak?
18:08 ace4016 what's the point of this again?
18:09 Asshazie To increase progress, productivity, to serve the needs of all of mankind collectively, not individually, and with such a federation, all of the malignities that plague our world today
18:09 Asshazie War
18:09 Asshazie Crime
18:09 Asshazie Rape
18:09 stoopkid Asshazie: most intelligence was developed because the weak needed something against the strong, who could take what they wanted by force
18:09 Asshazie Will be eradicated through the concerted effort of a strong military regime
18:09 Asshazie It will be a perfect world
18:09 Asshazie Can't you see
18:10 ace4016 yes, you should get on that
18:10 stoopkid Asshazie: in monkeys you can see that the beta males will get with one of the alpha's mates through various means of trickery, you can see the foundations of how intelligence evolves out of the weak
18:10 Asshazie I've been working on it ever since I had my ass kicked by kids at school when I was younger.
18:10 Asshazie I swear I'll achieve this or die trying
18:11 Asshazie I will take control of this world
18:11 Asshazie no matter what it takes
18:11 deshipu build the army of robots
18:11 Asshazie I don't care how impossible it sounds
18:11 stoopkid Asshazie: you want to let the world devolve to the social level of cave-men, but you expect us to somehow achieve some kind of grand federated state out of this, instead of millenia of war and chaos
18:11 Asshazie No, that was Kaczynski
18:12 stoopkid Asshazie: and that's where you're crazy
18:12 Asshazie I'm the opposite
18:12 Asshazie He believed that progress should happen in reverse
18:12 Asshazie I believe it should be forward you see
18:12 Asshazie Ugh
18:12 Asshazie I can't explain it well here
18:12 deshipu and what makes you think forward is that way? ;)
18:12 Asshazie Kaczynski, as self aware as he was, was nothing more than a schizophrenic caveman
18:13 stoopkid and what are you?
18:13 Asshazie Aldous Huxley
18:13 deshipu I think we should go in all directions at once, and see which of us succeeded
18:13 stoopkid Asshazie: ah a visionary?
18:13 Asshazie Listen mock me all you want
18:13 stoopkid Asshazie: you see the things the rest of us fail to grasp?
18:14 Asshazie But I swear that it will happen
18:14 Asshazie If not by my hand
18:14 Asshazie by someone like me
18:14 Asshazie But as long as I breathe
18:14 Asshazie I'll fight to create this perfect state
18:14 stoopkid i have no idea what you even want to happen
18:14 Asshazie I believe the world is competition
18:14 Asshazie But I'll hide that from everyone in the future
18:14 Asshazie They won't have to go through what I went through
18:15 ace4016 competition, but unified
18:15 Asshazie I'll fix things
18:15 Asshazie It'll be heaven
18:15 stoopkid what did you go through?
18:15 Asshazie They won't know the evils that go on behind the veil
18:15 ace4016 so you want to hide the fact that there is competition, but you shun librals for trying to do that?
18:16 Asshazie Spending each and every day being attacked by those who were stronger than me, having the system tell me I had no worth, having everyone attack and even sexually attack me because I was too weak to speak
18:16 Asshazie They only quit because I demonstrated my abilities on paper
18:16 Asshazie Then they applauded me
18:16 Asshazie They said I was performing better than the other students my age
18:16 Asshazie Though days ago they had plans to remove me and place me in a school for degenerates
18:16 Asshazie I was forced to see the competition of this world
18:16 Asshazie from a young age
18:17 Asshazie and I hated it
18:17 Asshazie I'll hide it from people of the future
18:17 Asshazie They won't have to live my Hell
18:17 ace4016 so...
18:17 ace4016 k
18:17 ace4016 play on
18:17 Asshazie Enough has been said
18:17 Asshazie Ugh
18:17 stoopkid -so you were oppressed by the strong but you want to take it out on the weak?
18:18 Asshazie Many of those "weaklings" were the ones who attacked me
18:18 Asshazie How dare they
18:18 Asshazie Everyone attacked me, I was free game.
18:18 ace4016 sounds like you were the weak one :P
18:18 Asshazie Enough about me
18:18 Asshazie Listen
18:19 Asshazie I'm sorry for wasting your time
18:19 Asshazie and making things persona
18:19 Asshazie personal
18:19 stoopkid that's ok
18:19 Asshazie But you have to understand how little I care about the lives of others
18:19 ace4016 being able to handle social situations is a sign of strength, adaptability, etc.....prime traits you'd want to preserve
18:19 stoopkid well that's sad
18:20 stoopkid most people don't just randomly attack people so i think you just got unlucky with that one
18:20 ace4016 the environments we're raised in shape us
18:20 stoopkid people are still cool though
18:23 stoopkid Asshazie: instead of saying we should deny treatment to cancer patients you should be trying to find a cure, so that we don't have cancer patients
18:23 ace4016 he left :P
18:23 stoopkid oh
18:23 stoopkid i see
18:24 stoopkid poor kid
18:24 deshipu he'll grow out of it :)
18:24 deshipu it's a rebel stage
18:25 stoopkid anybody here worked on a PLC before?
19:36 Flynnn Anyone know a good MPU for inertial navigation? I'm looking for something that doesn't have a ton of noise, and is mainly suited to tracking the motion of a fairly slow object. There may be quite a bit of vibration. Most important is accurate rotation tracking, but position tracking would be excellent as well.
19:38 Triffid_Hunter Flynnn: slow movement, lots of vibration? that's basically the most difficult situation for an IMU to work with
19:39 Triffid_Hunter Flynnn: can you use the compass for absolute rotation, and smooth it out with accelerometer+gyro?
19:39 Flynnn Triffid_Hunter: haha
19:40 Flynnn Triffid_Hunter: Yeah, I'm really just not sure where to look for a chip with good compass/accelerometer/gyro. Some chips I've seen have builtin motion processing as well, but I'm not sure how good that is
19:41 Triffid_Hunter Flynnn: that's always handy, do you want to be crunching an 11x11 (or so) matrix every motion frame on your main processor?
19:42 Flynnn Triffid_Hunter: I've got a RaspberryPi 2 pretty much dedicated to some thruster calculations and dealing with motion calculations -- that should be able to handle such matrix processing, yes? but to be honest, I have no idea how to use a matrix to solve this problem
19:43 Triffid_Hunter Flynnn: the matrix is called a "kalman filter", tons of info in google for that keyphrase
19:43 Flynnn Triffid_Hunter, Oh yeah, kalman filter -- I've researched that quite a bit, but I've only ever seen it explained as a statistical function, and not as a matrix directly for MPU calculations
19:44 Triffid_Hunter Flynnn: it's essentially a big square n-matrix, you feed in gyro, accelerometer, compass, GPS, etc etc along with certainty values and it spits out position/orientation with certainty
19:45 rue_more stoopkid, i done
19:46 Triffid_Hunter the certainty is essentially the standard distribution of the gaussian noise, it will vary with GPS readings (GPS receivers can spit out the horiz and vert accuracy) but you basically just pick a value with the rest
19:47 Flynnn Triffid_Hunter: Fascinating, and that will build to get total position, eh? That's very cool. How do I assign the certainty though?
19:48 Triffid_Hunter Flynnn: heh, read about that in your kalman filter docs :P
19:48 Triffid_Hunter I suppose you would measure noise and fit a gaussian distribution to it, then plug that in or something like that
19:49 Flynnn Triffid_Hunter: and I take it that a matrix like that will take into account how certain the magnometer is of certain orientation, and fill in the unknown orientation with gyro, and smooth out data from magnometer using gyro as well?
19:49 Flynnn ** absolute orientation, not certain orientation
19:51 Triffid_Hunter Flynnn: yep that's the whole idea of the kalman filter
19:51 Triffid_Hunter it takes all possible sensor inputs and certainties, and combines them into a single position+orientation+certainty output
19:52 Flynnn Triffid_Hunter: that's pretty cool! Do you know of any libraries that are dedicated to kalman filters of this form? seems like something someone would have already made
19:52 Triffid_Hunter information theory says that if you set it up properly, the output certainty will be the maximum theoretical certainty given the inputs, and the history of inputs
19:52 rue_more http://hackaday.com/2015/03/03/introducing-the-solder-sucker-9000/ <-- hey rifraf
19:52 Triffid_Hunter Flynnn: no idea, probably there's several
19:52 Flynnn Triffid_Hunter: oh wow, that's interesting
19:53 Triffid_Hunter Flynnn: ... assuming that the input noise is truly gaussian which it frequently isn't
19:54 Triffid_Hunter Flynnn: that's where the EKF (extended kalman filter) comes in.. apparently they do something to it so it can deal with anisotropic noise
19:54 Triffid_Hunter GPS positional noise is typically anisotropic rather than gaussian for example
19:54 stoopkid rue_more: ?
19:55 rue_more I got rifraf a compressor for just that
19:55 Flynnn Triffid_Hunter: I see! Very interesting
21:27 rue_more ok I did a little over 100 willow cuttings, I hope a few of them take
22:11 armyofevilrobots They will, also, keep them away from your septic field :O
22:48 rue_more I'm growing them to sop up water in the back yard
23:39 rue_more Triffid_Hunter, this 80% rule is annoying
23:39 rue_more the head is supposed to be .4mm
23:40 rue_more it puts out .33mm smallest
23:40 rue_more so I'm at .26mm layer height
23:40 rue_more I'M SURE YOU KNOW HOW LONG IT TAKES TO PRINT WITH .26mm LAYERS!
23:40 rue_more anyhow
23:40 Triffid_Hunter rue_more: 0.25 is the highest I print at :P
23:41 Triffid_Hunter if I want a print to look nice, I go down to 0.1 ;)
23:41 Triffid_Hunter or less
23:41 rue_more I have 3mm filament, I think I'm tickling the bottom of how slow I can go before it all jams up
23:42 rue_more my parts are functional, hose cap, fan grill, dont need .1mm layer height!
23:42 rue_more :)
23:42 rue_more I ordered some spare nozzels, I'll make or modify myself some .5mm .8mm, and maybe a 1mm
23:42 Triffid_Hunter rue_more: I've printed at 0.05mm with 3mm filament without any issues
23:43 Triffid_Hunter rue_more: at some point, the speed becomes limited by how long it takes to actually melt the plastic
23:43 Triffid_Hunter 1.75 would help with that, less plastic that the heat has to go through
23:43 rue_more yup
23:43 rue_more hah
23:43 rue_more 1.75mm filament with a .175mm head?
23:43 rue_more er 1.75
23:43 rue_more :)
23:44 GuShH or just add more heater power...
23:44 Triffid_Hunter heh I can't imagine that working too well :P
23:44 rue_more I think that lawn mower was printed with a 2mm nozzel
23:44 rue_more guestimate
23:44 rue_more GuShH, its like cooking, you cant just double the temp and half the time
23:44 Triffid_Hunter ^^ that
23:45 GuShH rue_more: 1 and 1.5mm are used for big "industrial" prints, at least I've been asked to manufacture parts for big printers where they get a rough print out and then they process it to use it for a mold or similar process.
23:45 Triffid_Hunter you end up burning the plastic on the walls
23:45 GuShH yes you can have more power and push it faster... that's what they're doing.
23:45 rue_more anyhow, I need some larger nozzels
23:45 GuShH you guys are on the small leagues!
23:45 rue_more I'd make them but the brass is $$$$$$$$
23:46 rue_more waaaay more expensive than nozzels from ebay
23:46 ShH eyer
23:46 GuShH find a better supplier
23:46 Triffid_Hunter rue_more: can't use aluminium?
23:46 rue_more oh yea
23:46 rue_more ...
23:47 rue_more why did I get stuck on using brass?
23:47 GuShH you could, they don't last as long and the heat transfer difers.
23:47 rue_more "not long" ?
23:47 GuShH budda uses almost all aluminum parts, galling was not something they studied about it seems.
23:47 Triffid_Hunter my hotend has been going for years, it's aluminium and SS
23:47 rue_more gavanic?
23:48 rue_more there is no moisture
23:48 rue_more is the nozzel alum tho?
23:48 Triffid_Hunter rue_more: doesn't need moisture, plenty of direct contact under pressure
23:48 GuShH rue_more: basic abrassive + friction action, the hole ovals or otherwise enlarges, goes out of spec.
23:48 Triffid_Hunter rue_more: the nozzle+heaterblock is aluminium, the barrel is SS
23:49 GuShH this could all be compared to plasma cutting, ie. a tiny head with a 110 unit at home vs a massive 3 phase water cooled unit with huge, expensive nozzles for rapid cutting
23:50 GuShH speaking of which I've never seen ones that would tilt upon arc initiation to save the nozzles, they don't seem to care much but they do start off the edge whenever they can
23:50 GuShH interestingly most of those routers use rack and pinion for motion
23:51 GuShH routers/beds
23:51 GuShH </tangent>
23:57 rue_more this is great
23:57 rue_more Triffid_Hunter, saying aluminum head lasts fine, and GuShH saying it wears out right away
23:58 rue_more I'v almost put my 2nd kg thru my printer
23:58 rue_bed my cat didn't come back in, I dont like this
23:58 rue_bed should be back by now