#robotics Logs
Feb 12 2015
#robotics Calendar
09:38 rue_more armyofevilrobots,
09:39 rue_more http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/images/p1070058.jpg <-- in part 3d printed box
09:39 rue_more http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/images/p1070059.jpg
09:39 rue_more http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/images/p1070060.jpg
09:39 rue_more http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/images/p1070061.jpg
09:40 rue_more just need to make the sheet metal top
09:52 armyofevilrobots See, I would be 3d printing the top. :D
09:52 armyofevilrobots That’s a nice little box design though. I may steal that in the future.
13:01 SquirrelCZECH how was the motor calcualtion?
13:01 SquirrelCZECH given that I know motor torque, wheel radius
13:01 SquirrelCZECH how much weight is reasonable for me
13:01 SquirrelCZECH ?
13:01 SquirrelCZECH :D
13:33 deshipu SquirrelCZECH: well, the torque is in kg (of force) times cm
13:33 deshipu SquirrelCZECH: the wheel radius is in cm
13:33 uirrelCZECH just needs approximate we
13:33 SquirrelCZECH http://hitecrcd.com/products/servos/robotic-servos/hsr-1425cr-continuous-rotation-servo/product
13:34 SquirrelCZECH 2 servos on robot
13:34 deshipu SquirrelCZECH: so if you divide the torque by the radius, you know how much the wheel can lift
13:35 deshipu and if you consider that driving over an obstacle involves lifting the vehicle...
13:35 SquirrelCZECH that makes sense!
13:35 SquirrelCZECH :D
13:36 SquirrelCZECH 1.16kg per one wheel
13:36 SquirrelCZECH for wheel with r=24mm
13:37 SquirrelCZECH if I am counting correctly for that wheel
13:37 SquirrelCZECH that's more than I was hoping for
13:37 SquirrelCZECH :)
13:38 SquirrelCZECH ok
13:53 SquirrelCZECH I am twisted and evil
13:53 SquirrelCZECH ok
13:53 SquirrelCZECH recently with my cad library I ran into problem that there are many variables for each part
13:53 SquirrelCZECH *parameters
13:53 SquirrelCZECH and for the static ones, I run into problem that I endup searching for some variable too much...
13:53 SquirrelCZECH SO!
13:54 SquirrelCZECH I was searching for some way to define that static parameters... like config file
13:54 SquirrelCZECH and I am really considering using CSS :)
14:56 deshipu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv1nXXSB65E
14:56 deshipu kittens
15:30 pybrain i recently saw a video from boston dynamics showing the ATLAS robot and in background it had a monitor linked to it. It was running on python :)
15:44 deshipu pybrain: that's not so surprising :)
15:44 deshipu pybrain: it's a great glue language
15:45 SquirrelCZECH wat
15:45 SquirrelCZECH my brain
15:45 SquirrelCZECH explode
15:45 SquirrelCZECH deshipu: yeah, really , really powerfull
15:47 pybrain so lets hack ATLAS guys lo
15:48 pybrain i just wanna send it commands to do the hustle
16:58 katsmeow-afk how to blow $millions to determine wrapping a sub (or underwater robot) in bubble wrap make it less visable to sonar -- http://www.livescience.com/49689-stealth-coatings-hide-submarines.html -- coming up next, how to blow $millions finding out the bubbles collapse and are less than worthless when the sub dives deep
17:01 Tom_itx ever see a submerged coffee cup?
17:01 Tom_itx it's about thimble size
17:02 katsmeow-afk yeas, it's why you drill holes in your uav batteries and fill them with glycerine
17:02 Tom_itx styrofoam
17:02 katsmeow-afk "However, despite the possibilities, "making these samples will probably be tough," Leroy cautioned." ... translation : we are going to make a fortune overcharging the military for air
17:05 katsmeow-afk i suspect this "news leak" is designed to make someone else waste $millions on trying to do this, much like the sub design using accordion pleating as the pressure hull
18:32 katsmeow-afk at what point does machinery become a robot?
18:33 Jak_o_Shadows Branching?
18:33 katsmeow-afk hmm?
18:34 Jak_o_Shadows Robots have branching actions, machinery just follows steps?
18:36 katsmeow-afk of course, if the riding mower (which is outside mowing, and i am not riding it) : if need_gas then blah else keep mowing end if ?
18:37 katsmeow-afk that's awefully simplistic, is it really all the difference to make a robot?
18:37 katsmeow-afk in a way, all procedureal programming languages is just steps
18:38 Jak_o_Shadows That's more similar to a emergency shut off switch for something you'd definitely call machinery isn't i?
18:39 katsmeow-afk ok, if in_path(child) then stop else mow(flowergarden) end if
18:40 katsmeow-afk lemme rephrase, when is the mower, programmed to mow the yard and tend to the little deviations involved, become a robot? tell me, show me
18:41 Jak_o_Shadows I would say fairly soon. As soon as it's not just blindly following a path.
18:42 katsmeow-afk but don't you follow the same path every time you mow the lawn?
18:42 Jak_o_Shadows No, but if I were, you could describe that as doing something robotically?
18:43 katsmeow-afk therefore it is a robot?
18:43 Jak_o_Shadows Yes
18:44 Triffid_Hunter katsmeow-afk: when it can respond to unexpected environmental input, like mowing a circle around your cat
18:44 katsmeow-afk Triffid_Hunter, then currently, there are no robot lawn mowers in existance?
18:44 Triffid_Hunter it doesn't have to respond particularly intelligently, just not blindly keep going
18:45 Triffid_Hunter katsmeow-afk: I'm sure someone's hooked a roomba brain to their mower, that would count
18:45 Jak_o_Shadows doesn't rue have one?
18:45 katsmeow-afk but you said "mowing a circle" around an unexpected cat, roombas don;t mow circles
18:46 Jak_o_Shadows Roomba's are on the dumb side of robot vacuum cleaners.
18:46 Triffid_Hunter they avoid obstacles
18:46 Jak_o_Shadows There's a couple out there that do SLAM.
18:46 Triffid_Hunter how do they get decent floor coverage without slam?
18:46 katsmeow-afk obstacle avoidance is still folling steps : if obstacle then turn left else continue end if
18:46 Jak_o_Shadows Pretty sure Roomba's just walk around.
18:49 Triffid_Hunter katsmeow-afk: sure, it's pretty dumb, but satisfies the condition of responding to unexpected environmental conditions.. it's not gonna freak out and need reprogramming if you move a chair for example
18:50 katsmeow-afk ok
20:37 caveman hi - any microcontroller that you guys recommend for drones?
20:38 katsmeow-afk i recommend against the PDP-11
20:41 caveman why?
20:41 caveman ogi pdp-11
20:41 caveman err
20:42 caveman okay i guess u were joking
20:42 katsmeow-afk yeas
20:42 caveman which microcontroller is most widely available ?
20:42 katsmeow-afk any cpu that fits, weighs nothing, is fast enoughto poll the sensors, and can pwm drive as many motors as you need, should be fine
20:43 caveman i guess their instruction sets vary greatly?
20:43 katsmeow-afk *hugely*
20:43 katsmeow-afk do you not have a favorite?
20:44 caveman nope i'm new to this
20:44 caveman i'm welling to learn one
20:44 katsmeow-afk easier to buy one already to fly
20:44 caveman not fun
20:45 katsmeow-afk ok, you're a sadist,, try an atmega, maybe packaged in an arduino (etc) pcb already
20:45 katsmeow-afk wanna kill time, try a propellor cpu
20:47 caveman i somehow feel that arduino is easiest but not most efficient
20:48 caveman also arduino is microcontroller combined with a board with a few other goodies too. right?
20:48 katsmeow-afk that depends on your priorities and definitions, i spose
20:48 katsmeow-afk yeas
20:48 katsmeow-afk and ready-to-run gps and motor drivers and wirelesslinks are available
20:48 caveman i wish to use my owh breadboard
20:49 wallarelvo The shields are easy to use and you can find them pretty cheap
20:49 tsmeow-afk taps everyone else in the channel and urges them to res
20:50 caveman the shields?
20:50 tsmeow-afk hands caveman a bag of atoms to build the copter with, from the very basic building blocks of ma
20:50 caveman heh
20:50 wallarelvo Like the motor shield, ethernet shield, gps etc
20:51 katsmeow-afk shield = daughtercard
20:51 wallarelvo It is like an adapter for the arduino
20:51 caveman honestly i don't only aim to build a drone. i will go over all crazy stuff including self driving car and walking robots and what not
20:51 wallarelvo Start with a drone
20:51 wallarelvo You can use ardupilot which makes it really easy to get up and going
20:52 katsmeow-afk start with something that won;t fall out of the sky in a flaming mass of burningplastic
20:52 wallarelvo It has a goos navigation stack
20:52 caveman yeah i'll begin by basic/fundamental experiments
20:52 wallarelvo Hahah, that is also true
20:53 caveman one thing i dislike about pre-combined boards with microcontrollers and all sorts of goodies is that i don't see much learning experience
20:53 wallarelvo The first thing i made was a home alarm with a PIR sensor
20:53 wallarelvo It would send me emails when somebody came into my room when it was on
20:53 wallarelvo Ot would also play a loud sound
20:54 caveman good
20:54 wallarelvo I used the arduino, a small netbook, a breadboard, and a PIR sensor
20:54 Loshki Triffid_Hunter: This shameless commercial for neato shows the difference in coverage patterns between them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMrnUKloaEM&ab_channel=JaniceThomas. There are all sorts of tradeoffs between the two systems.
20:55 wallarelvo I also wrote a light weight event based serial library for it
20:55 caveman is it okay to make, say, an rc car, by using breadboards with bare microcontrollers?
20:55 caveman okay as in easy ?
20:55 caveman or would it get really bulky?
20:56 katsmeow-afk micros canbe as small as your thumbnail, is that too bulky?
20:57 caveman no
20:57 caveman certainly not bulky
20:57 caveman but i mean using breadboards to connect micros to other components like sensors and rotos
20:57 caveman rotors*
20:57 wallarelvo It gets a little bulky
20:58 katsmeow-afk IRFZ44 and irf1404 for motor drivers are ~3/4 inch long and 1/8 thick, prolly still not too bulky
20:58 Loshki caveman: take a look at instructables and/or hackaday. I think you're ready...
20:58 caveman is the brown board on left considered a breadboard? http://shrimping.it/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/stripboard_vs_breadboard_alternative.jpg
21:00 katsmeow-afk bulky mechanicals, tiny electronics ... skip to 3/4 point : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ox1Cb9uoy8
21:01 caveman looks neat
21:02 caveman texas insturements?
21:04 katsmeow-afk i dunno, my point is the electronics are the least of your size problems for real-life practical robotic stuff
21:04 caveman i want to learn
21:05 tsmeow-afk hands the caveman a wikipedia
21:05 caveman how about ARM?
21:07 ace4016 ARM is pretty generic; which one of the hundreds are you talking about?
21:07 ace4016 (maybe even thousands)
21:08 caveman but i guess ARM variants share some of their instructions and learning one is going to help learning other ARM ones?
21:08 katsmeow-afk easiest ARM is prolly the raspi
21:08 caveman basically my goal is 1) use breadboard, 2) to manually connect sensors/rotors, 3) against some microcontroller that is common in the industry so my experience would be more useful
21:09 tsmeow-afk wishes you well
21:09 ace4016 you can use just about anything
21:09 caveman but i don't want to learn too many different instruction sets
21:09 ace4016 you've used a microcontroller, of a certain bitness, you've used them all
21:10 ace4016 you won't have to
21:10 ace4016 it's why man invented C
21:10 caveman i see
21:10 katsmeow-afk and woman invented ADA ;-)
21:10 caveman i guess it's not that common in to use ASM industrially?
21:10 ace4016 also, you'll have to get use to switching between langauges and architextures and instruction sets...
21:11 ace4016 to be honest? ASM you learn is transferable in most cases
21:11 caveman i dislike this feminist shit
21:11 ace4016 most processor architectures are similar enough for the base concepts to be easily moved across them
21:12 katsmeow-afk <cough> what ?
21:12 ace4016 lol
21:12 e4016 shows katsmeow-afk https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VNu83pb_b-Y/Ub96d5tOVpI/AAAAAAAABRo/IeBBZ_9anRs/w1104-h828-no/IMG_20130617_162310_782.jpg to calm the s
21:13 caveman how about linux friendliness? like having tools that exist that allows me to upload my code to the microcontrollers?
21:13 katsmeow-afk it's cats!
21:13 caveman including compilers
21:14 ace4016 most microcontrollers are more linux friendly than windows friendly
21:14 ace4016 (but not all...)
21:14 caveman compilers?
21:14 ace4016 gcc
21:14 caveman do they provide some sort of gcc modules?
21:14 ace4016 usually
21:14 ace4016 or they have their own compiler
21:14 caveman i was gifted some freescale microcontroller and it only supports windows iirc
21:14 ace4016 katsmeow-afk, they're bigger now; those were when they were around a year old
21:15 katsmeow-afk lol
21:15 ace4016 i don't take pictures very often
21:15 tsmeow-afk
21:15 caveman how to upload code to a microcontroller?
21:17 caveman also any preference towards vendors? e.g. which vendors usually produce reliable and quality microcontrollers
21:18 ace4016 there's usually some cable to send the program over serial/usb/proprietary connection/jtag...etc.
21:18 caveman and how to connect the cable to the microcontroller?
21:18 ace4016 some devices have a bootloader that you can load the program from a card from
21:19 ace4016 depends caveman
21:19 caveman but isn't this more like a tester/developer board?
21:19 ace4016 not always
21:19 ace4016 updating your firmware isn't rare
21:19 caveman i thought/think that microcontroller are these black things with lots of legs around them that look like cpus
21:20 ace4016 they are
21:20 ace4016 if your board supports a programming cable attachment, then there are pins or some sort of interface there
21:20 caveman and the conections, like usb/serial/card don't plug there directly. instead, i will need some sort of port socket and a breadboard to make the connection happen
21:20 ace4016 yea, chips don't function without a house to live in :P
21:21 ace4016 or an office to work in if you prefer that analogy
21:21 caveman breadboard is fine?
21:21 ace4016 sometimes
21:21 ace4016 breadboards don't work well for something like QSOP or so :P
21:22 caveman hmm qsop?
21:22 caveman oh that's a tiny microcontroller?
21:22 ace4016 that's a package type
21:22 ace4016 they come in many different packages
21:23 caveman only those bigger ones with thick legs fit in breadboards?
21:23 caveman i assume these compact ones need a different breadboard?
21:24 ace4016 qsop: http://www.dzsc.com/uploadfile/ic-doc/175-16-QSOP.jpg
21:24 ace4016 LQFP: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Z84C0010FEC_LQFP.png
21:24 ace4016 etc.
21:24 caveman yeah found it
21:24 caveman any breadboards for these? or are they made to be soldered?
21:25 ace4016 if it's not through hole, it usually doesn't work well without an adaptor chip
21:25 ace4016 they're meant to be soldered
21:25 caveman would be neat if there is a breadboard with some really tiny holes in it for such small microcontrollers
21:26 ace4016 the holes are the problem
21:26 ace4016 those aren't meant to to into holes
21:26 ace4016 they're meant to sit on top of pads
21:26 caveman isn't there any sort of universal breadboard that plugs to various kinds of things?
21:26 ace4016 http://www.proto-advantage.com/store/images/PRODUCTS/PA0063_2.JPG
21:27 ace4016 there's no such thing as universal :P
21:27 caveman oh i see
21:27 caveman that last pic is one to let the earlier qsop mc set on it?
21:27 ace4016 you have the through hole breadboards that are meant to work with through hole packages and components, and you have surface mounted stuff that usually requires you create a development board
21:27 ace4016 caveman, yup; with solder
21:28 ace4016 (hold it down and create a good electrical and thermal connection)
21:29 caveman how much harder is it to use 1) breadboard, 2) mc, 3) sensors/rotors/other electronics to make a robot, as opposed to the alternative approach of using a pre-packaged board?
21:29 ace4016 you can create a generic dev board for SMD components by just creating a bank of headers that connect to the chip
21:29 ace4016 then you can use throughhole stuff to help develop things
21:29 ace4016 for development or final production caveman?
21:30 caveman no just learning
21:30 caveman development
21:30 ace4016 hrm, depends what you're learning :P
21:30 ace4016 like, if i were developing something, i might do the earlier phases on a breadboard, but might create a prototype board in the later stages
21:31 ace4016 as breadboards are 1) heavy 2) hard to strap down 3) have unreliable connections...
21:31 caveman i was expecting that the domain of mc is kinda clearly set towards some specific vendor, much like the microprocessor where intel has clearly won the war against amd. is this the case in mc?
21:31 ace4016 nope
21:31 ace4016 see, intel and amd (and via) are working in a very small subset of computation
21:31 ace4016 x86 processors
21:32 ace4016 there are a ton of different types of processors out there, as well as microcontrollers
21:32 ace4016 for all sources of purposes
21:32 ace4016 other than general computation
21:33 ace4016 you have people that make highly parallel chips, some that are really good for some domain specific area such as signal processing; some that are meant to control low level devices; some that are meant to perform safey critical computations such as in a nuclear powe plant or aircraft
21:33 ace4016 etc.
21:33 ace4016 the world is much larger than intel :P
21:34 rue_more armyofevilrobots, by all means use the box design, I was going to make it scalable if it worked out
21:34 ace4016 brb...restarting
22:33 Loshki caveman: Plenty more where this came from: http://www.instructables.com/id/Obstacle-avoiding-robot-5/