#robotics Logs

Jan 02 2015

04:23 LiohAu such a waste of money (DARPA°
04:23 LiohAu )*
04:24 ace4016 you know, when i was younger, i would have agreed
04:25 ace4016 but as you learn how businesses and industry work...it makes sense
04:34 LiohAu I'm just sad because they have the knowledge to change the world, and they are just doing nothing with it.
04:37 LiohAu trying to keep robotics for military usage, more war, more pain, more $.. I think that robotics is the only thing that can make this world a better place (even if the time needed to deploy robotics at a global scale will be an harder period).
04:41 ace4016 that's not quite what they're doing :P
04:42 ace4016 technology R&D requires funds. most companies will not put those funds up themselves as R&D and product creation is risky
04:42 ace4016 which kills innovation
04:42 ace4016 (profits before all)
04:43 ace4016 DARPA simply is providing funding for further development of things they're interested in. the DARPA funded organization can use the results of their effort for other things outside of defense
04:43 ace4016 if they so please
04:43 ace4016 but that R*D was never going to be done without that initial push
04:44 ace4016 a few government agencies do this (NASA, DHS/DoS, EPA, etc.)
04:44 ace4016 so it's not really unique to the DOD even
04:45 ace4016 DARPA doesn't have the knowledge to change the world :P
04:45 ace4016 they're simply providing the cash to develop things that interest them
04:46 ace4016 so...poor arguement
05:16 Veverak LiohAu: robots wont make this worl better place
05:16 Veverak robots are only tools for us... so it's up to us what we will use it for
05:16 Veverak :)
05:17 Veverak (and we know what that means)
05:18 LiohAu people will try to make profit as always. That's how they will use robots. When robots will have replaced a huge part of the population, this population won't have money to buy products made by the robots, and the "rich" people that wanted to replace workers by humans, will lose everything.
05:22 deshipu robots are not replacing the population
05:22 deshipu you are antropomorphizing them
05:23 LiohAu they are replacing the manual workers
05:23 deshipu the problem of "rich" people exists without robots as well
05:23 LiohAu at least
05:23 joga they're not replacing the workers, just making them useless
05:23 deshipu the problem where merely owning something lets you gradually grow in wealth
05:23 joga (as workers in the task they used to do)
05:23 ace4016 they'll move onto something else
05:24 deshipu joga: or just stop working, which is also an option
05:24 LiohAu it's the same thing. Workers don't have job anymore, so no income, so they cannot buy anything. They are out of the consumer market.
05:24 ace4016 so how do robots help then?
05:24 ace4016 :P
05:24 deshipu joga: I hate that attitude where you are considered worthless if you don't have work
05:24 deshipu LiohAu: you can have income without jobs :)
05:25 deshipu LiohAu: in fact, most rich people do
05:25 LiohAu from real estate?
05:25 deshipu or factories and other companies they own
05:25 deshipu or stock
05:25 deshipu or whatever
05:25 LiohAu or from dividends
05:26 deshipu the sad thing is we already have enouch resources and technology for everybody to work two days a week
05:26 deshipu we just don't distribute it that way
05:26 LiohAu deshipu: yes. That's exactly what I think. I'm working 5days a week, while so many complains because they don't have a job
05:26 deshipu and we have those bullshit jobs, that do nothing tangible, just to have "employment"
05:26 LiohAu And I would like to share my job with them really
05:27 deshipu anyways, robots
05:27 LiohAu but let's say I work 2.5 days, instead of 5 days a week. I should earn 50% less. So what do I stop buying ? :)
05:28 LiohAu I think real estate is the part fucking everything.
05:28 deshipu at a certain point the amount of money you have stops changing anything
05:28 LiohAu I'm not at this point yet :P
05:28 deshipu LiohAu: ownership in general, but real estate is a big part of it, yes
05:28 joga that's pretty high up though
05:28 deshipu the problem is, we don't have a better system
05:29 deshipu the ones that have been tried don't scale
05:29 LiohAu and you agree that real estate cost really less if your house is made by robots instead of humans right ?
05:29 deshipu that's irrelevant
05:29 ace4016 depends
05:29 LiohAu So the 1st revolution will be a robot that build house !! :D
05:29 joga I'm all for a world where things are done out of passion and not necessity and all are provided for. maybe some day...
05:29 deshipu as only rich people will afford robots and get the benefits
05:30 ace4016 currently a robot creating house would likely be more expensive than a human created house
05:30 deshipu also, human labor is cheap
05:30 ace4016 human labor can be pretty cheap
05:30 ace4016 :D
05:30 LiohAu ace4016: "currently" yes :)
05:30 Veverak well
05:30 verak supposes that human will be cheaper than robot usu
05:30 joga cheap may not be adequate
05:30 deshipu it's part of why the robots never did well in the porn industry
05:30 ace4016 lol
05:30 joga heh...it's because no one really gave an effort
05:30 LiohAu hey things are changing :P
05:31 deshipu anything you want to do, you can get it by paying a couple of bucks
05:31 LiohAu look at these japaneses guys ^^
05:31 joga I saw a documentary about sex robots and those people were DERANGED and STUPID
05:31 LiohAu joga: it was talking about japan right?
05:31 joga except one guy who actually understood what a sex robot should be able to do: thrust penis
05:31 joga LiohAu, nah, US mostly I think
05:31 deshipu joga: the future is sensors and feedback loops
05:31 joga or maybe the interviewed were from UK and US, not sure
05:32 deshipu joga: the basic dildo works just fine, you just need to adjust better to the owner
05:32 joga one of them was really ridiculous, he basically made a fugly doll that can't move but its head and talk silly phrases with fugly voice
05:32 deshipu so checking pulse, temperature, skin resistance
05:33 deshipu joga: that's a common mistake, people build a human replica
05:33 joga teledildonics with rifty stuff etc
05:33 deshipu joga: instead of building a tool that is better suited for the job
05:33 joga yeah
05:33 deshipu like the washing machine
05:33 deshipu it's not washing the way humans did
05:33 joga and also there's the uncanniness of trying to make an actual human replica and it's extremely difficult to even get that far
05:33 deshipu but it works
05:34 deshipu roomba is actually a big step
05:34 deshipu because it's the first home robot that moves on its own around
05:34 deshipu there is a huge reistance there
05:35 verak is afraid to
05:35 Veverak but I suppose somebody asked... what if roomba kills my child?
05:35 LiohAu so you think that roomba robots will replace classical vaccum ??
05:35 joga I sure hope so..
05:35 deshipu Veverak: what if your washing machine kills your child?
05:35 joga though roomba should also be able to fly a bit
05:35 joga :p
05:35 Veverak deshipu: for me it means I don't deserve one (child)
05:35 deshipu Veverak: or your oven?
05:35 LiohAu moreover washing machine was already used to kill..
05:35 LiohAu cats at least
05:35 LiohAu not the case of a roomba
05:36 joga I'm sure many toddlers have met their fate in a washing machine
05:36 Veverak LiohAu: roomba can't replace classical vaccuum
05:36 deshipu LiohAu: there are some human accidents involving washing machines
05:36 Veverak LiohAu: but I suppose roomba + "hand vaccum" would do the trick
05:36 deshipu those chinese baby clothes have "remove baby before washing" labels on them
05:36 joga wish I had a more open apartment, I probably would consider a roomba or similar as I'm pretty lazy with vacuuming
05:36 Veverak LOL
05:36 Veverak deshipu: please
05:36 LiohAu humanoid robot that does what you actually do, exactly the same way, but with skill
05:36 Veverak deshipu: tell me that you arek idding
05:36 deshipu Veverak: seriously
05:37 Veverak deshipu: or my faith in humanity is going even lower
05:37 deshipu so we can't really build anything more dangerous than what we already have ;)
05:38 Veverak I don't agree with that
05:38 Veverak we can
05:38 deshipu also, we are safe from robot uprising as long as we have all those stairs ;)
05:38 Veverak we just have to start behaving like thinking being
05:38 deshipu Veverak: nobody thinks all the time
05:38 Veverak because "remove baby before washing" shows that darwinism isn't working
05:38 Veverak or tha there is another problem in humanity
05:38 LiohAu btw, what are you guys doing in the life?
05:38 deshipu living, mostly
05:38 LiohAu is your daily job to work on robots?
05:39 joga aren't clauses like that to avoid law suits of stupid people
05:39 shipu programs web app
05:39 ga is IT a
05:39 e4016 provides engineering support for pl
05:39 verak programs stupid web app and is on univer
05:40 Veverak hobby: robotics :)
05:40 LiohAu ok, so we are all doing robotics as a hobby :)
05:40 LiohAu < iOS developer
05:40 joga I've taught a few programming courses in uni with robots, but it's just a hobby thing
05:40 Veverak fuuu
05:40 verak have to rewrite somet
05:41 Veverak but it means to split 100 lines long script
05:41 joga is that bad, then
05:41 deshipu 100 lines, oh no, how do you even manage to handle that? ;)
05:41 joga it could be much worse...
05:41 Veverak I know
05:42 Veverak there is 1k file near it that needs some polishing too
05:43 deshipu Veverak: what language?
05:45 Veverak python
05:45 ga is looking at 350 line bash scri
05:48 Veverak nope
05:48 verak just can't properly split that thing,
05:48 deshipu joga: that's just wrong
05:48 deshipu joga: bash should have an 8.5 line limit ;)
05:50 joga well the script in question was semipurposefully kludged together and the next iteration was much smaller
05:50 joga :)
06:01 Veverak fuuuu
06:01 Veverak 10 args for method
06:01 Veverak really thinking about making some structure to store all data
06:01 Veverak *all relevant data
06:02 deshipu that makes it harder to test :(
06:04 Veverak holder_screws, wheels = generate_wheels_holders(slots_list = slots_list,geared_wheel = geared_wheel,geared_joint = geared_joint,front_joint=front_joint,front_wheel=big_wheel,track=track,output=output,airless_wheel=airless_wheel,airless_wheel_holder=airless_wheel_holder,offset_configs=offset_configs)
06:04 Veverak like if this is any better
06:06 Veverak not to mention that I just use complex format for data and still don't have any way to define it properly
06:06 deshipu maybe a function that does everything at once is a bad idea? :)
06:07 Veverak just around 400 lines of doing everything
06:08 Veverak yeah, bud idea :)
06:08 Veverak *bad idea
06:10 deshipu but back to robots
06:10 Veverak fuu
06:10 Veverak and I am really starting about "normalization" for values that comes out of my math
06:10 Veverak [106.8437083436111, -25.5, -20] is not really huma friendly coord for screw in space
06:11 deshipu it would really be nice to have more "roomba-like" maintenance bots running around
06:11 Veverak what can you maintain with today technology?
06:11 Veverak :
06:11 Veverak :)
06:11 Veverak (means it would work, and would be cheap enough)
06:11 deshipu collecting dropped screws, for instance
06:11 Veverak makes sense
06:12 deshipu de-rusting and painting steel constructions
06:12 Veverak well
06:12 deshipu collecting cigarette buds on the parking lot
06:12 Veverak I don't suppose steel constructions are ... easy to handle :)
06:13 Veverak deshipu: public robots = more problems
06:13 deshipu well, you would only let it out to clean
06:14 deshipu a robot that would be able to climb furniture would be awesome
06:14 deshipu I wonder what could be a robust system for that
06:15 deshipu special rails attached to the furniture would be a start, I guess
06:16 deshipu they would also need some markings or beacons on them
06:19 rue_bed how about collecting round, yellow things from the yard and bringing them back to a collection point
06:19 rue_bed about 1" around
06:19 rue_bed bright yellow
06:19 ace4016 lol
06:19 rue_bed circular
06:19 deshipu spherical?
06:19 rue_bed no disc
06:20 rue_bed verry easy to pick up with a fork like device
06:20 rue_bed needs to be vertically broken free tho
06:20 deshipu I've read about a cool experiment, where they set up a "vending machine" on the roof that would give out nuts if you dropped any coins into it, and taught a raven to use it
06:20 rue_bed about 4 lbs of force should do it
06:20 deshipu soon they had an army of birds collecting coins from the whole city
06:21 rue_bed yea, I got a bunch of crows around for that and didn't get to the rest of it
06:21 rue_bed they open sourced the project
06:21 rue_bed but they left out some details iirc
06:22 rue_bed they only did it with coins because nobody went for it with their can machine
06:22 rue_bed so much for garbage collecting birds
06:22 deshipu or a meat grinder
06:23 deshipu for vultures collecting stray cats
06:23 rue_bed crows and ravens are really smart birds
06:24 rue_bed ravens esp
06:25 rue_bed oh fooooooooo
06:25 rue_bed I just hupped my desktop
06:26 ace4016 all of the corvid family are considered intelligent iirc
06:30 deshipu in the mean time I kinda got my robot to follow my hand using the distance sensor
06:31 deshipu I really need to implement full body IK for it, so it can also look up and down
06:40 deshipu seems like distance sensors are the easiest way to make the robot do something interesting
06:41 ace4016 it's one way that allows them to see the world
06:41 ace4016 sense the world...
06:41 ace4016 where things are (distance info) is important :P
06:41 deshipu I wish there was also an easy way to get a position relative to some beacon
06:42 Veverak deshipu: which kind of distant sensors?
06:42 deshipu Veverak: I prefer the sharp IR one, I also have the ultrasonic one, but didn't use it yet
06:43 deshipu I also made a head that follows your hand using just LEDs and photoresistors
06:46 deshipu but that's not very accurate
06:47 Veverak :)
06:49 deshipu the idea is that you blink the led really fast
06:49 deshipu and compare the light when it's on to the light when it's off
06:49 deshipu if the difference is big, there is an object in front of it
06:49 deshipu reflecting light from the led into the photoresistor
06:50 Veverak yeah, I've got osme idea about it
06:50 Veverak more like I am interested if kinect is usable in this or not
06:50 deshipu there are some robots using kinect or similar sensors
06:50 Veverak you know... once you say some broken one on ebay and you just want to try to repair it :)
06:51 deshipu afaik there are some quite nice linux drivers and libraries for kinect
06:52 deshipu but somehow I never went there
06:52 deshipu it's just too big for the kind of robots I want
06:52 Veverak well, yeah I noticed that some people like it on their robots
06:52 Veverak that's why I am curious :)
06:52 Veverak deshipu: for mine it would be biggest thing on it
06:53 Veverak but I ask myself... will it be worth it? and I suppose "Yes" so far
06:54 deshipu I want a desk robot
06:54 Veverak well
06:54 deshipu going bigger is too expensive
06:54 Veverak I wan't something that I could work on on my desk
06:55 Veverak (which for me means desk size :D )
06:58 deshipu well, I want to make it run on the desk
06:58 deshipu and preferably not just 3 steps in each direction
06:59 deshipu ok, so the next sensor I want to experiment with is whiskers
06:59 deshipu I had some old mandoline strings somewhere...
06:59 Veverak nah
07:00 Veverak got new laptop with i7
07:00 Veverak still rendering too slow
07:00 Veverak maybe I could finally lower the res? :/
07:00 deshipu rendering what?
07:00 Veverak scad models
07:01 deshipu try disabling 'force goldfeather'
07:03 Veverak hmm
07:03 Veverak deshipu: disabled
07:04 Veverak but well, $fa = 0.1, $fs = 0.1
07:04 Veverak it's high res :)
07:46 Veverak https://cloud.veverak.org/public.php?service=files&t=1802be60918546a91b4c38b4fafa776a
07:46 Veverak finally almost done
08:58 Veverak any robotics related forum you know and like?
08:59 iveevue You doing any projects atm?
08:59 deshipu Veverak: letsmakerobots.com, trossenrobotics
09:04 Veverak deshipu: hmm
09:04 Veverak is project in design process ok to pas on letsmakerobots as "robot" ? :)
09:05 Veverak I still didn't builded a single screw...
09:07 deshipu Veverak: no, they want you to have something physical, but you can post on the forum
09:08 Veverak ok
09:09 Veverak deshipu: I suppose "Ideas" will be best
09:10 Veverak hmm
09:10 Veverak I will render more pictures at first
09:48 Veverak https://cloud.veverak.org/public.php?service=files&t=15c19fce3910e41fd085e18b1ac1c29a hehe :)))))))
09:48 verak loves to scale UP th
13:22 Veverak fuuu
13:22 Veverak 12 Usd for bevel geras?
13:22 Veverak gears
13:22 Veverak fu you conrad
14:51 tws2172 hello
14:58 Veverak https://cloud.veverak.org/public.php?service=files&t=42ed162c752855ec7648c69d7f34a55b tried to make prototype of gearbox
14:58 Veverak I sense problems here
14:58 Veverak tws2172: hi!
15:14 tws2172 indeed
16:03 Veverak https://cloud.veverak.org/public.php?service=files&t=890839233085b07c8f84869f2054ca27
16:03 Veverak hmm
16:03 Veverak can't decide if putting motor in that place is good idea or not
16:11 Hyratel1 Veverak, how stuck into that type of motor are you?
16:11 Hyratel1 also what kind of voltage/amperage we talking here
16:12 Hyratel1 12v, 10-15A?
16:12 Hyratel1 personally, I'd suggest more clearance off the tracks
16:12 Hyratel1 just because of slack-slap
16:21 Veverak Hyratel1: 8.5T RC Racing motors
16:21 Veverak lot of power
16:21 Veverak buuuut unfortunetly for me big RPM
16:22 Hyratel1 15k RPM?
16:22 Hyratel1 what's your target output RPM
16:24 Veverak damn it
16:24 verak had that calculations somew
16:27 Veverak Hyratel1: I suppose that motors should be able to do over 20k RPM
16:27 Hyratel1 what kind of voltage/amperage
16:27 Hyratel1 and how big are they
16:28 Veverak http://www.nosram.com/en/products/electric-motors/car/brushless/produkt/pure-evolution-bl-modified-85t/details/
16:28 Veverak older generation of these
16:28 Veverak I would suspect 20% less power
16:28 Hyratel1 oh, brushless?
16:28 Veverak yeah
16:28 ratel1 was caught out by the model mesh you were u
16:28 Veverak :D
16:28 Hyratel1 I'm used to BDC
16:29 verak is racing with RC
16:29 Veverak so got plenty of experience to know that I want brushless :)
16:29 Veverak P.S: just now that gearbox should be 1:256
16:30 Tom_itx harmonic drive
16:30 Veverak well
16:30 Veverak I should be able to print or buy it ... :)
16:31 Hyratel so half horse per side
16:32 Hyratel https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33593534/images/Robot/DSCN2011-1k2.jpg
16:32 Veverak well, it's not like I want to use full of power of that motors
16:33 Hyratel Veverak, how does the whole thing compare in size?
16:33 Veverak it's just that I have tam here and I don't use them
16:33 Veverak Hyratel: wheelbase is 30cm
16:34 Tom_itx http://www.thingiverse.com/search?q=harmonic+drive&sa=
16:34 Hyratel nose to tail?
16:34 Veverak and width around 210mm ?
16:34 Veverak Hyratel: rearwheel axis to front wheel axis
16:34 Hyratel so you'll probably be pulling 12v 10-15A per side on a hard accel
16:34 Hyratel what's your working voltage
16:34 Veverak 7.4V
16:35 Veverak target weight should be around 3kg but I am not even close with making script to calc that :/
16:35 Hyratel so you'll be pulling 18-24A per side
16:36 Hyratel oh, only 6 lbs? sheesh that's nothin
16:36 Hyratel those mostors are way overspec for what you're doing
16:36 Hyratel you'll put it on its lid if you don't govern it
16:37 Veverak well
16:37 Veverak gonna use proper RC ESC anyway
16:37 Veverak :)
16:37 Veverak so no problem with lovering the power, plenty of experience with that
16:37 Veverak Hyratel: both motors was in my 1.2kg racing car before
16:37 Veverak :)
16:37 Veverak *were
16:37 Hyratel caveat - you're going to have reduced granularity for low throttle settings
16:38 Veverak hmm
16:38 Veverak on that RC Cars
16:38 Veverak there was ratio around 1:9
16:38 Veverak for one motor to handle 1.2kg
16:38 Veverak *RC Car
16:38 Veverak so I suppose 1:256 should be enough for 2 motors for 3kg ? O_o
16:38 Veverak but question is how clsoe I am to 3kg
16:39 Hyratel your weight will only be an issue if you have a regulation to keep it down
16:40 Veverak just personal limit
16:40 Hyratel otherwise you have plenty of motor for the size
16:40 Veverak yeah
16:40 Veverak I am definetly sure that even for 50% power settings it got more then plenty power
16:40 Veverak I am only concerned about gearing it properly :)
17:29 tws2172 hello
18:09 Veverak finally somehow decent config
18:09 Veverak https://cloud.veverak.org/public.php?service=files&t=39235750cd4cb342f988ef8967dd4f30
18:09 Veverak let's call it a day
19:06 Hyratel Veverak, so you're trying to design your own gearboxes?
19:06 Hyratel there aren't any hobby boxes that would suit your application?
19:49 rue_shop4 Hyratel, he wants to print the whole project
19:49 Hyratel oh
19:49 Hyratel ambitious
21:07 tws2172 hello
21:14 ace4016 hi
21:20 tws2172 anyone working on a fun project?
21:40 Hyratel I'm playing Kerbal, does that count?
21:41 tws2172 yes
21:55 ace4016 lol, i think you disappointed him
22:01 Hyratel mission accomplished