#robotics Logs
May 15 2014
#robotics Calendar
07:50 GuShH GargantuaSauce: time to buy quality ones!
07:51 GuShH They come so cheap now I managed to strip a 4mm in it's first use, by hand. it also twisted around.
07:51 GuShH No point in buying those sets
07:51 GuShH my best allens were bought separate one by one as I needed them
07:51 GargantuaSauce i guess the screw is stripped too
07:52 GuShH but anyway 2mm is small.
07:52 GargantuaSauce they make each other nicely round
07:52 GuShH cross threaded?
07:52 GargantuaSauce no, just a tight hole
07:52 GargantuaSauce untapped
07:52 GuShH heh
07:52 GargantuaSauce i dont have a drill bit of quiiiite the right size
07:58 GuShH ah
07:59 GargantuaSauce i should just find some thermal expoxy instead of bolting these LEDs down
07:59 GargantuaSauce -x
08:04 GuShH what drill size?
08:04 GuShH I never have the right size.
08:04 GuShH You can have all the sizes available but one, and you'll probably need that one.
08:05 GargantuaSauce 2mm i guess
08:06 GuShH oh, that's pretty standard, most hardware stores will carry them, of course you are also down on an allen key too :/
08:07 GuShH I've yet to figure out how to sharpen << 3mm bits
08:07 GuShH I don't think it's possible without a jig, at least not without going back and forth a bunch of times. they're so small
08:08 ShH hides the ~20 or so dull 3mm bits under the ca
08:11 GuShH GargantuaSauce: got any conical reamers? you can make one with just a dremel, on a pinch.
08:12 jkhl anybody good with Lego Mindstorms stuff? Can you explain how the sonar is connected in this video (kind of visible near the end) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi7pdofJBy4 such that the sonar sensor can be rotated left right by the front servo?
08:12 GargantuaSauce nah, keep meaning to get one
08:12 GargantuaSauce i need so many damn tools
08:12 GuShH bah I got some taper reamers, but I don't use them.
08:12 GuShH Now I realize why this toolmaker had them, for tapered pins.
08:13 GuShH to lock mould halves or to locate centers they usually have tapered pins in there
08:19 GuShH anyway if the material is softer than steel, and you have a steel shaft that is 2mm, you can grind a 60° point, then a flat on each side, if you have a way to vertically drive it (drill press, or dremel on a stand) it will enlarge your hole provided the angles are right
08:20 GuShH http://members.iinet.net.au/~nickl/tools.html for example the file reamer, you can see it's got clearance angles but otherwise the original OD remains untouched, it actually forms the cutting edge.
08:20 GuShH and it's small enough you can harden and temper it on a stove.
08:20 GargantuaSauce i could just attack it with a round file too
08:21 GargantuaSauce but unfortunately i cannot remove the half-inserted bolt because all of my allen keys are round :)
08:21 GuShH vise grip?
08:21 GuShH or is it a grub screw
08:21 GargantuaSauce vise grips might do it, i don't have a pair though
08:22 GuShH if you had square hss bit you could shove it into the head then use a regular set of pliers or spanner to remove it
08:22 GargantuaSauce and all of my pliers are greasy from wrestling with the wheelchair
08:22 GuShH but I'm not aware of bits that small
08:22 GuShH (it just has to be a harder material)
08:23 GuShH they make tiny vise grips, I thought they wouldn't be useful but I've used them a bunch of times, they're lightweight and they fit in odd places, the regular ones are massive.
08:23 GuShH only seen them once at the store, never again
08:23 ShH tries not to buy cheap tools, but sometimes he doesn't have an alterna
08:25 GuShH http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/49721-Cute-little-vise-grips-cheep
08:25 GuShH I admit I bought them because they looked cute.
08:25 GargantuaSauce omg they're so little!
08:25 GuShH yes! I would like even smaller ones!
08:26 GuShH I got two of them, one long nose, the other short. I regret not buying the "welding" one
08:27 GuShH Seems I live in regret when it comes to tools.
08:28 GuShH If it helps, an old flat head screwdriver will serve as an allen key on a pinch.
08:28 GargantuaSauce too small i think
08:28 GuShH other than that I'm out of ideas
08:29 GargantuaSauce i've actually ruined most of my little little flat screwdrivers that way
08:29 GuShH here's the sledge hammer.
08:29 GargantuaSauce yeah i'll just drill it out i guess
08:29 GargantuaSauce after a healthy dose of procrastination
08:29 GuShH hrmm that probably requires <2mm bit
08:29 GuShH I sense broken bits in the future
08:30 GargantuaSauce yeah i have 5-6 1mm ones kicking around
08:30 GuShH I was looking at the allen keys they had on the store yesterday, they were all the type I already have, cheap...
08:30 GuShH I wish I had a full T handle set
08:30 GuShH and good keys instead of the china crap
08:30 GargantuaSauce the one i just ruined belongs to a set with nice handles but yeah the tools are a bit too soft to be awesome
08:30 GuShH torx too, but I don't use them as often
08:31 GargantuaSauce then again i kind of doubt there are 2mm ones out there that won't go cylindrical pretty quick
08:31 GuShH I have high quality "tips" for my torx needs, I've abused those with cheater bars, never stripped one.
08:31 GargantuaSauce there sure isnt a lot of difference between the edge and vertex of a 2mm hexagon
08:31 GuShH but there is in the type of steel and it's treatment
08:31 GargantuaSauce yeah
08:32 GuShH one of my best keys says USA on the side and I never managed to strip it, it's a 4mm I think
08:32 GuShH I used to go through a lot of those taking apart high pressure boilers, the smaller ones used M5 grade 8 bolts all around.
08:33 GuShH I think the overall tension strength was 2-3 times the required.
08:34 ShH doesn't see a lot of over-engineered stuff any
08:37 GuShH saturday comes, I think I'll head to a garage sale, saw a flier the other day... not sure they'll have any tools or old equipment, but it's worth a shot
08:37 GuShH I think almost every sale here is for clothing and appliances, the kind of stuff I don't care about. But I sure would love good old used tools instead of the crap they sell now adays
08:39 GuShH "Yeah, there is problem of the prison labor. Nevada state has them working the phones for infomercials. Yes, convicts are taking credit card numbers. "
08:39 GuShH what, is that real?
08:39 GuShH you gotta be kidding
08:40 rue_more huh, I'll keep buying over the internet from china then!
08:41 GuShH dunno, just read that on the tiny vise grip thread
08:41 GuShH I should start using the antique hand vise I got, it's just that I feel bad using it
08:42 GuShH probably not as old as I think it is, but I couldn't find any more information on it
08:45 GuShH http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g327/jhe-1973/KRTT%20Stuff/Fuel%20Tank/Tank1.jpg lol
08:46 GuShH rue_more: what's used to lift the edges like that by hand? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/49888-Fabricating-an-impossible-to-find-oil-tank-for-a-motorcycle?p=698773&posted=1#post698773
08:47 GuShH on curves.
08:47 GuShH just different forms?
08:48 GuShH I could spend all day on that forum
08:48 GuShH now that's a bike!
08:51 GuShH yeah he used a form to hammer the bends
08:51 GuShH that's quality work
09:10 rue_more nice tig weld
09:11 rue_more GuShH, there is a heat-and-compress method, but I dont think that was it
09:15 GuShH I read it all, toward the last pages he shows the method
09:15 GuShH using a form and hammer / dollies
09:16 GuShH ball peen or so, whatever these guys use.
09:16 GuShH it requires skill more than anything
09:20 GuShH rue_more: this is fun, some twink from auckland in NZ (60.234.149.137) has been busy trying to hijack some of my accounts
09:20 GuShH I've also received several phishing attempts recently, which of course makes me grin.
09:21 GuShH Some are creative, but very low standard. Back in the day I used to be a lame blackhat wannabe dipshit, but at least I succeeded with proper technique.
09:24 GuShH Freenode as always uncooperative.
09:25 GuShH "get a subpoena" no need.
09:29 GuShH I guess new kids are born every minute huh
09:30 GargantuaSauce what is even worth hijacking in a freenode account :/
09:30 GargantuaSauce i guess if you're a channel owner or something
09:30 GuShH GargantuaSauce: gmail
09:31 GuShH they tried my freenode account not long ago.
09:31 GuShH they also tried my hosting.
09:31 GargantuaSauce ah ok
09:31 GuShH I know it's someone in freenode.
09:31 ShH doesn't own any channels worth kee
09:44 GuShH Interesting... hops from nz to sanfran
09:52 GuShH I wasn't aware of such fibre, I thought they went to AUS and then to west coast US
09:53 GuShH oh I see now http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Southern_Cross_Cable_route.svg
09:53 GuShH I think 5-7-10 was a later addition
10:01 GuShH http://www.fliptronics.com/tip0006.html
10:01 GuShH gotta love some guys
10:01 GuShH but of course SR44 is better.
10:02 GuShH I've been through 1 LR44 in about 1 solid year use though and it was the original low quality one
10:03 GuShH Since they give you an extra, there's no down time... you just have to remember to buy spares after that.
10:16 GuShH darn that's a nice micrometer... but I wonder why it's got so much plastic on it http://mla-s1-p.mlstatic.com/micrometro-tesa-suizo-lectura-0005-mm-estuche-origen-5241-MLA4298228313_052013-F.jpg
10:16 GuShH it's 0.005mm
10:38 GuShH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBFBy2xEoO0
11:13 GuShH ok not only is the casting of the base on this cheap flat vise warped (after it's been machined, don't ask me how) one of the jaws is bulged...
11:14 GuShH time to make a set of jaws, or rectify the ones that came with it... and get the base flat... although they're not worth the effort, it's the only one I have at the moment :(
11:16 GuShH the jaws must be made out of chinesium.
11:26 Hyratel GuShH, pics?
11:34 GuShH Hyratel: I'll take some soon :)
11:34 Hyratel haha, that's a new one to me, "Chinesium"
11:34 GuShH it's one of those 2 1/2 " cheapies they give you with drill presses or other stuff, also sold separate...
11:34 Hyratel but i like it
11:35 GuShH I really need to get some proper ones, but even for rough stuff you don't want to use your best tools
11:35 GuShH this is SO bad you can't use it, might as well throw it away.
11:35 Hyratel geez
11:35 Hyratel is there anything saveable on it?
11:35 GuShH not one single surface is flat, I just dyed them and got them across some 240 grit paper, on glass, on top of marble (most flat surface I've got)
11:36 GuShH all the machined surfaces are rough, just a single pass to get it "cleaned up" they never did anything else to them
11:37 GuShH I don't understand how there's so much invariance though, even with a rough cut it's still mainly flat, although it will have high and low points on each sweep of the tool, it still is "generally flat"
11:37 GuShH anyway that's why they bind, they don't sit flush, they won't grip properly, etc.
11:38 ShH will put some money aside for a nice machinist vise or
11:45 GuShH Hyratel: I wasn't expecting much from it, but someone on another channel was surprised when I said quality vises were expensive; he thought they were all the same (...) this light duty thing is so far the worst I've seen. here's the bottom http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn5428f.jpg
11:46 GuShH other parts, which should be flat http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn5426f.jpg
11:46 Hyratel 6_o
11:46 GuShH http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn5425f.jpg
11:47 GuShH they're not even good for woodworking.
11:47 GuShH quite frankly I'll probably throw it away.
11:48 GuShH they put loctite or something on the screws of the fixed jaw, couldn't remove them by hand
11:48 GuShH Hyratel: so with the dye you can tell the high spots easily, if you continue the process you can get the surfaces flat (to the reference you are using)
11:49 GuShH of course, if that requires lowering all surfaces deep enough to where you have over 90% contact area, you might end up with mismatched heights
11:49 Hyratel it'd take more work-dollars than it'd take to just get a decent one?
11:50 GuShH a decent one (used, actual machinist vise, not a chinesium poser vise) is 150 bucks and up around here, those also need work since they're usually abused!
11:50 GuShH but even then that's for a generic one.
11:50 GuShH (of the same size, travel)
11:52 GuShH the good ones are dovetailed with gibs
11:58 GuShH I don't have the means to properly weld cast iron, otherwise I can get some damaged ones for cheap and take them as weekend projects. The best stuff I can get around here is Vertex, which are actually quite bad precision wise, but good enough for my needs. At the moment I need something in this size, for light duty drilling, that actually works.
14:38 GuShH bah I lapped it some more after lunch, it's just beyond hope.
17:34 GuShH robotustra_: sober today?
17:43 GuShH Hyratel: here's the poop-chinesium vise as best as it can be without machining new parts or spending any more time: http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn5429f.jpg -- http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn5433f.jpg - jaws are parallel and flat now. It will work fine for wood and plastics on the drillpress. Notice the brass shim to take out the inherent gap... I would not buy one of these, ever.
17:43 ShH is looking for used vises ne
17:56 Hyratel GuShH, and there is no punchline
17:57 GuShH Hyratel: I don't follow :/
17:57 Hyratel brother said "It's not broken, it's Harbor Freight!
17:59 GuShH it is HF quality, but it came with a drillpress however... I technically didn't pay for it, as the same machine was being sold for the same price on another store, without the vise. I think they were just getting rid of those pieces of crap any way they could.
17:59 GuShH there are not as many manufacturers of this kind of stuff in China, so it's all the same crap throughout the world.
18:00 GuShH very inconsistent as well.
18:01 GuShH I'll wait though, most milling machines I've been looking at already have some type of vise bundled with them (we're talking used)
18:01 Hyratel at least you got it marginally usable. and you did have the tooling ability to do so
18:01 GuShH I wasted a solid hour.
18:01 GuShH hour and a half.
18:02 Hyratel so... you got a vise for free
18:03 Hyratel spent an hour (that's what... $30/hr for a skilled machinist?) and have something that, for your uses, is probaby now worth about $70 in usability
18:03 Hyratel I'd say you came out ahead
18:03 Hyratel the only thing cheaper than free is free and working
18:04 GuShH I think for most things I'm better off using parallel clamps than this thing though.
18:04 Hyratel parallel clamps?
18:04 GuShH http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_912361005_1.jpg
18:04 Hyratel oh, those things
18:04 GuShH they're awesome.
18:04 Hyratel I usually call them two-screw clamps
18:05 GuShH I don't know about the wooden ones, but the steel ones are nice.
18:05 GuShH once you've got the height set, they're very fast to work with.
18:05 GuShH anyway now I can finish the knurler I was making for the lathe.
18:06 GuShH "project dependencies"
18:06 GuShH found the closest thing on HF, it looks even worse, I thought that wasn't possible http://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-jaw-capacity-drill-press-vise-30999.html
18:07 GuShH I wouldn't buy it for 5 bucks.
18:07 Hyratel mhh
19:46 robotustra_ kinda useful info http://www.wa4dsy.com/robot/balancing-robot/ball-balancer
19:47 ace4016 hrm...only PIDs used...
19:48 ace4016 wonder if anyone actually uses modern control theory at all or if it's PIDs all the way down
19:49 ace4016 or maybe hobbyist don't typically know past PID
19:56 Hyratel ace4016, the latter, really
19:57 ace4016 yea...
19:57 ace4016 maybe i should stop being lazy and get some projects going and post some info about modern control techniques
20:00 robotustra_ I see that he made PID electronically
20:04 robotustra_ kind of useful book for programmers and not only http://beust.com/algorithms.pdf
20:14 rue_more yay!, the transistors are here for the buck converter for my smps
20:15 rue_more hahaha a dc motor for rate feedback! haha
20:16 GuShH http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCMillCNCConversionHome.html
20:16 rue_more analog pid, nice excersize
20:46 robotustra_ stupid sellers don't know what is liquid glass
20:57 MrCurious all glass is liquid
21:07 robotustra_ I was looking for potassium or sodium silicate
21:07 ace4016 incorrect MrCurious >_>
21:08 MrCurious i know. i was bait'n
21:08 ace4016 but it sure does look pretty
21:09 MrCurious 3 days of my city on fire
21:12 robotustra_ need also pallete knife
21:14 robotustra_ to open violin
21:20 MrCurious making a violin? you will need a hot glue gun too
21:25 rue_more GuShH, wow, that guy totally rebuilt the whole thing
21:28 robotustra_ I did actually
21:28 robotustra_ need to open
21:29 robotustra_ hot glue gun it not needed
21:29 robotustra_ it's opening with knife and spiritus
21:29 robotustra_ C2H5OH
22:03 GuShH rue_more: he even potted some portions with an epoxi-sand-gravel mixture
22:04 GuShH You know, I poured concrete inside the column of this cheap drill press and it did make a difference with the vibrations, since it was already primed on the inside I didn't worry about rust
22:04 GuShH I'm quite sure the epoxi would make a noticable difference on that mill
22:05 GuShH If I can't make space for a knee mill I'll have to get one of those
22:09 GuShH I was under the impression the more "complete" version of that model had threading capabilities, but it turns out it's just a gimmick like on some big drill presses, the quill handle is disingaged and you run it slow, when it ends the travel a microswitch reverses the quill rotation so it backs up "on it's own" using taps ... However, by threading and "auto feed" I thought they meant using a threading tool (like a boring bar wit
22:09 GuShH h a 60° or 55° bit) and the machine would lower according to the preset pitch... which is available on more expensive machines, but clearly this is not the case, although I could swear I've seen one with a motorized quill
22:12 GuShH so the particular one a guy is selling has a 3 position switch "drilling/milling - stop - tapping" it seems something got lost in translation and they used "threading" instead of "tapping" on the description... anyway it's used, has no coolant pump, no light, no power feed, in essence it's a bare bones machine at a very high price...
23:30 GargantuaSauce https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGr5lzFcyWQ rue_more
23:57 rue_more yayaaaaaaaay! I finished the picnic table!