#robotics Logs

May 01 2014

00:36 MrCurious IGNORANCE IS BLISS
00:40 GargantuaSauce if the insulation is melting and/or smoking, use bigger wires
00:41 mol_ GargantuaSauce: hi
00:42 mol_ i am looking for what is INMETRO certification & NBR related
00:42 mol_ for brazillian cables
00:42 GargantuaSauce i have shared the extent of my knowledge on the subject
00:43 mol_ ok
00:43 mol_ MrCurious:
00:43 MrCurious ?
00:43 MrCurious what? i am lost
00:44 mol_ ok
05:32 GargantuaSauce https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIipkRWnMH4 rue_house
05:32 GargantuaSauce really like the differential bevel gears on the wrist
09:05 FreezingCold So I've been working with some decent larger robots recently
09:05 FreezingCold How do you avoid smashing things? :p
09:05 Hyratel1 robots or rovers?
09:05 FreezingCold robots
09:05 FreezingCold Like say I'm aiming a screwdriver, if I go in too fast, *BANG* *CRACK*
09:06 FreezingCold Is it just purely through torque?
09:06 Hyratel1 do you have force sensing on the working head?
09:06 rue_house GargantuaSauce, you didn't see...
09:06 FreezingCold Hyratel1: Thank you, that's what I was looking for
09:07 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/arm4/p1050046.jpg
09:07 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/arm4/p1010782.jpg
09:07 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/arm4/p1010781.jpg
09:07 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/arm4/p1010546.jpg
09:07 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/arm4/p1010546b.jpg
09:08 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/arm4/p1010570.jpg
09:08 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/arm4/p1010571.jpg
09:08 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/arm4/p1010575.jpg
09:08 rue_house http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/robots/arm4/p1010683.jpg
09:08 rue_house done
09:08 Hyratel1 dude, spammy
09:08 Hyratel1 if you have more than about 4 links, find some way to gallery them
09:09 rue_house nobody else is sayin nuthin
09:10 SlaveToTheSauce that's a different mechanism rue
09:10 Hyratel1 rue_house, FreezingCold and i were talking
09:10 SlaveToTheSauce the one i linked has three bevel gears
09:11 FreezingCold rue_house: yeahh, that was more of a gallery
09:12 FreezingCold Hyratel1: I don't have an end use in mind yet, but I was thinking of getting an older Fanuc, wiring up my own controller or using theirs, and then write a few programs to calculate movement instead of their crappy stuff
09:12 rue_house hmm
09:12 rue_house mine does same thing
09:12 FreezingCold Is there any decent programs to calculate toolpaths (ideally open source)?
09:13 Hyratel1 fanuc? how big/what working force?
09:13 Hyratel1 also idea
09:13 FreezingCold Hyratel1: again I don't have a full picture in mind, just messing around. I was looking at the 420, which is up to 100kg I believe
09:13 Hyratel1 if the tool head has a square bolt plate, get four load cell plates and you can see the forces you're applying to the tool with those
09:13 Hyratel1 one on each corner
09:14 Hyratel1 with four in a square/diamond, you can see lateral forces too
09:14 FreezingCold Yeah Fanuc S-420iF
09:15 Hyratel1 not familiar enough with it, but I THINK most of the good ones will have some accomidation for either torque sensors or back-EMF torque sensing
09:15 rue_house https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkDbmWAyHYw
09:15 rue_house :) how to make a robot arm
09:15 Hyratel1 I was worried you were saying that from a "damnit, this just happened problem"
09:15 FreezingCold Wow, you can get a heavy used one for as little as $1k
09:16 Hyratel1 industry puts a lot of miles on them
09:16 FreezingCold yeah, this one I'm looking at was used in the auto industry
09:17 Hyratel1 do you have something in mind to do with it, or just 'for funsies'?
09:17 rue_house yea, I still want to make a conveyor to go with arm7
09:18 FreezingCold Hyratel1: a bit of both :)
09:22 rue_house https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEgGqSybLTo you have to appreciate how the console is installed in such a way no human could ever get it out
09:23 FreezingCold lol I love how they just drop it in
09:24 FreezingCold What brand are those robots?
09:25 rue_house kuma I think
09:25 FreezingCold oh yeah I saw it literally two seconds after
09:25 rue_house hah, the wheel nut driver does all 5 at once
09:25 FreezingCold meh, Kuma seems overpriced I think
09:25 rue_house its BMW....
09:25 rue_house er
09:25 rue_house mercadies
09:26 FreezingCold Tesla uses them too IIRC
09:27 rue_house price of the robots scale with the price of the car
09:28 FreezingCold For stuff like the nut driver, why not use a robot for that?
09:28 rue_house have to employ a vertian % humans?
09:29 FreezingCold lol
09:29 FreezingCold screw that
09:29 rue_house :)
09:30 rue_house or the local auth wont let you put a factory up cause its of no employment value to them
09:31 rue_house https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH08-JQwsZQ "its a demo, so draw it out as long as you can, dont worry about doing anything"
09:31 SlaveToTheSauce at least it isnt playing pingpong
09:31 Hyratel1 FreezingCold, what do you think of the idea of using an array of load cells for too force sensing?
09:31 rue_house myth, robots cant
09:32 FreezingCold rue_house: that basically sums up robot sales
09:32 Hyratel1 tool
09:32 Hyratel1 http://www.futek.com/
09:33 FreezingCold Hyratel1: Seems like it should work. I'm trying to get a drill and screwdriver going in the end
09:33 Hyratel1 electirc screwdriver?
09:33 FreezingCold just basic stuff, pick up wood and assemble it to something
09:33 Hyratel1 are you going to use computer vision for targetting?
09:33 FreezingCold yeah, pneumatic is a waste of power
09:34 FreezingCold and yes again, opencv :)
09:35 Hyratel1 hmmm
09:37 Hyratel1 aha
09:37 Hyratel1 http://www.hiwtc.com/products/dc-torque-control-electric-screwdriver-g-series-721445-10455.htm
09:37 Hyratel1 this looks like it'd be good for what you want to do
09:37 FreezingCold nice
09:37 FreezingCold I'll probably switch to Torx screws
09:39 FreezingCold that way I won't be camming out all the time
09:39 Hyratel1 torx or roberts
09:39 Hyratel1 you'll need torque sensing though
09:39 Hyratel1 so you don't shred something
09:40 FreezingCold haha of course ;)
09:40 FreezingCold meh, roberts seems like more of a PITA to insert
09:40 Hyratel1 fewer angles of success?
09:40 FreezingCold yeah. Robertson is nice for humans, seems meh for machines
09:40 Hyratel1 how will you retrieve the screw? will there be a rack of screws held upright?
09:41 Hyratel1 will the screwdriver have a grippre?
09:41 FreezingCold just a random thought, if you shake a bin that has a hole only small enough for the threads and not the head, it should go upright automatically
09:42 Hyratel1 not very reliably
09:42 Hyratel1 now if you have another arm that just grabs a single screw out of a bin and holds it up...
09:43 FreezingCold Hyratel1: Vision would help with that
09:43 FreezingCold Don't even need a robot, just a machine to shake everything
09:44 Hyratel1 I'm doubtful you'll get a very reliable result from that with screws over a half inch
09:45 FreezingCold Cone?
09:45 FreezingCold wear and tear might be a problem
09:45 Hyratel1 I think you have two tasks here
09:45 Hyratel1 one is the big arm
09:46 FreezingCold more than that lol
09:46 Hyratel1 the other is a little arm that needs to visually isolate a screw that is on top of the pile. orient its gripper to suit, grab the screw, and then hold it up so the big arm can grab it
09:47 FreezingCold the little arm would probably place the screw on top of the screwdriver
09:48 FreezingCold which would most likely be magnetic
09:49 FreezingCold brb washroom and gonna make lunch
09:51 Hyratel1 of general interest http://www.amazon.com/Dupont-Jumper-Male-Male-Female-Female-Female-Male/dp/B00BQA5BWU/ref=pd_cp_e_0
10:28 FreezingCold ebay is cheaper
10:28 FreezingCold 40pcs cost around $3-4 with free shipping
14:18 jxv Where can I find robotic hardware for x86 (desktop) computers? I want to avoid embedded hardware unless it's a supported breakout board for the desktop.
14:38 robopal what?
14:45 jxv robopal, is that directed towards me?
14:46 robopal yes hi why, what do you mean?
14:46 robopal what are you doing and you need that??
14:47 jxv I want to send and recv digital and analog I/O to peripherals with a x86 computer
14:47 jxv because it's faster.
14:47 jxv I really care about the software atm
14:51 jxv In this case, an embedded computer's size, power usage, and computing power is more of an obstacle than a benefit.
14:55 jxv Can I do this with a PCI device?
15:02 jxv robopal?
15:05 GargantuaSauce lol
15:05 GargantuaSauce maybe 15 years ago that was true
15:05 GargantuaSauce now it's absolutely false
15:06 jxv What part is false?
15:06 GargantuaSauce all of it
15:06 jxv I'm not using C/C++ or Java
15:06 jxv The speed of the computer is important
15:06 GargantuaSauce http://hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php
15:08 jxv what architecture is that?
15:08 GargantuaSauce i linked right to the product, all the details are right there
15:08 jxv ARM?
15:08 GargantuaSauce yes, cortex-a9
15:08 GargantuaSauce four of them
15:08 jxv I can't use that
15:09 jxv It needs to be x86(_64)
15:09 GargantuaSauce okay then
15:09 GargantuaSauce have fun with that search.
15:09 jxv :P
15:17 GargantuaSauce so just to be clear, you want zero mobility and high power consumption?
15:18 GargantuaSauce afaik general purpose industrial pci io boards are quite expensive
15:18 GargantuaSauce and the architecture does not necessarily lend itself to realtime control
15:19 GargantuaSauce there will be timing jitter and varying bus bandwidth availability
15:19 jxv correct
15:19 jxv The desktop could be 10ft x 10ft, it doesn't matter
15:19 jxv realtime isn't important
15:20 GargantuaSauce well you want to control motors i assume...
15:20 GargantuaSauce you should really use a smaller embedded processor for the realtime io and slave it to a gruntier machine doing CV or iterative optimization or whatever you have in mind
15:20 jxv what would you recommend in that case?
15:20 GargantuaSauce so that the latter doesn't have to worry about implementing arbitrary io protocols and a millisecond worth of jitter doesn't mean physical damage
15:21 GargantuaSauce microcontrollers and ethernet or usb or straight serial
15:22 jxv would the raspberry pi work in that case?
15:23 GargantuaSauce no it has pretty barren io and the same disadvantages as a pc unless you run an rtos on it
15:23 ShH_ w
15:23 GargantuaSauce what is your application
15:24 jxv CV and motors
15:24 GargantuaSauce yeah. so start by implementing all the motor control on microcontrollers. i use the stm32 ones, there are other options also
15:25 GargantuaSauce expose a fairly high level interface to those, along the lines of "turn actuator a to angle x at speed y"
15:25 GargantuaSauce so the pc or whatever just can hemm and haw about what it's looking at and not have to worry about participating in the motor control loop
15:26 jxv good, that's what I'm looking for
15:27 GargantuaSauce you'd be surprised at what those arm socs are capable of these days though
15:27 GargantuaSauce my single-core allwinner a10 can do software h.264 encoding of two webcams with 20% cpu usage
15:28 GargantuaSauce so it is not inconceivable that your whole system could use low power onboard processing
15:29 GargantuaSauce and the one i linked is about 5x as powerful as that
15:34 GargantuaSauce so yeah. architecture aside, the takeaway from this is make it modular
15:34 jxv hmm.. So the odroid can be a slave to the desktop?
15:34 GargantuaSauce a big monolithic solution on an x86 platform is not infeasible but will probably make you want to claw your eyes out
15:34 GargantuaSauce i was suggesting the odroid AS the desktop
15:35 GargantuaSauce the motors should be controlled by microcontrollers or something else suitable for realtime interactions
15:35 GargantuaSauce but i am going to take a leap and assume you aren't versed in fpga-based design
15:36 GargantuaSauce and that would potentially be a rather silly solution anyway. so yeah microcontrollers!
18:36 Mattx Hey guys. What's a good material to create a prototype for a frame of a quadcopter?
18:37 Mattx I want to use it and make sure it works, and take a mold later to do the same in carbon fiber
18:37 Mattx any idea?
18:40 blockh34d i had an idea but i haven't tried it yet
18:40 blockh34d it worked great for an art sculpture though
18:41 blockh34d sculpture was syranwrap over persons body part, then packign tape, 100%, then cut it off, then packing tape back to 1 surface, then inject with 'great stuff' spray foam
18:41 blockh34d becomes incredibly strong for its weight
18:41 blockh34d espcially if you also cover the tape with a thin layer of the foam
18:41 blockh34d and sand it down
18:42 ace4016 or just balsa wood >_>
18:47 Mattx blockh34d, I don't have the frame, that's what I'm trying to do :P
18:48 Mattx I mean, I can't take a mold, it still doesn't exist
18:48 blockh34d but you could make a standin
18:48 blockh34d out of anything
18:48 blockh34d shoeboxes
18:48 blockh34d the packing tape almost holds its own form just by itself
18:49 blockh34d i was about to say you could use twisted up newspaper if you really had to
18:49 blockh34d but you can't, not for a quadro
18:49 Mattx haha
18:49 Mattx wait, the problem is this
18:49 blockh34d if other stuff, more organic, you could
18:49 Mattx it's not a normal frame, let's say
18:49 Mattx that's why I need to test the prototype first
18:49 blockh34d cool what general form factor can you describe it as?
18:49 Mattx because I don't know if it's going to work
18:50 blockh34d i keep thinking about a frisbee based quadro
18:50 Mattx that's why I was looking for a good material for this
18:50 blockh34d that you toss like the predator disc
18:50 blockh34d and then it takes guidance over etc
18:50 blockh34d is it something in that realm like unique quadro?
18:52 Mattx in the model I did in paper the motors can change the angle relative to the "wing"
18:52 Mattx that mechanism is part of the design of the frame, not just a servo
18:52 Mattx so I need to test it first
18:53 Mattx can you think of any material that would allow me to do that?
18:53 Mattx prototype -> fly -> adjust -> take mold
18:56 blockh34d hmm gonna kick it a around a while, see if something occurs to me
18:57 blockh34d oh yah maybe actually
18:57 blockh34d i also use 1/4" fiberglass rods, for homemade crossbow bolts
18:58 blockh34d you can get them cheap at hardware store to mark the edges of driveway
19:21 blockh34d Mattx: no way to get access to a 3d printer? some libraries have them... also theyre get surprisiingly affordable
19:22 blockh34d even if just a small one you print out the distal nodes and central housing with, then use the fiberglass rods for the main arms
19:36 Mattx blockh34d, no :|
19:36 blockh34d oh i know
19:36 Mattx I guess there's one somewhere here, I can ask
19:36 blockh34d metal foil tape
19:36 Mattx metal foil tape? wtf is that? xD
19:36 blockh34d and fiberglass rods
19:36 blockh34d its like super duct tape
19:37 blockh34d HVAC guys use it to seal up vent pipes
19:37 blockh34d at the seams
19:37 blockh34d several layers becomes very strong
19:37 Mattx hmn
19:37 blockh34d i have a pic where i used it and cardboard to prototype a houseing for a HMD
19:37 blockh34d sec
19:38 Mattx ahh, Isee
19:38 Mattx cool
19:39 blockh34d i use stacks of cardboard cut to a set width and stacked high enough to encase fully whatever it is, then cut out the insides of the middle layers to form a hollow space
19:39 blockh34d and tape each layer to the last seperately
19:39 blockh34d by the time its done its actually pretty strong
19:39 Mattx I guess that I can do it strong enough as to make some test flights
19:39 blockh34d yes but i wonder about the weight
19:39 blockh34d its still a little heavy
19:40 blockh34d but cuold maybe work in modest amounts
19:40 blockh34d i think you should use sperate material for the main arms
19:40 blockh34d the ilghtest/strongest thing you can find
19:40 blockh34d the fiberglass rods may not be ilght enough but its a start
19:41 Mattx my initial idea was to use a mix of cartonboard with vinyl glue
19:41 Mattx wait, let me find a photo
19:41 blockh34d i think you should get or get access to a 3d printer
19:41 blockh34d and then design your case in 3d so you can reproduce it easily
19:42 Mattx http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pCLsGbqJM3U/TPffDN8PYDI/AAAAAAAAAHA/lHCj20A-o6k/s1600/mano%2Bmarmol.JPG
19:42 blockh34d using improvised materials leads to broken/wasted intricate supplies
19:42 Mattx some people use that to do sculptures
19:42 Mattx the point is, it's extremely light and cheap
19:42 Mattx I can insert wooden rods to make it stronger if needed
19:42 blockh34d cool
19:43 blockh34d i still think theres someting to say for the packing tape and spray foam idea
19:43 blockh34d it ends up looking a lot like that photo
19:43 blockh34d and it seems to weigh nothing
19:43 blockh34d i made a full human sized body like this and it was ridiculously light
19:44 Mattx lol
19:44 blockh34d but you'd want to figure out a mold object for the arms, and central body
19:44 Mattx that's the problem
19:44 blockh34d and i think you're right you need to make ti first with other stuff
19:44 blockh34d but i thinkt he weight of prototype materials is not awesome
19:44 Mattx I can take a mold from this thing with cartonboard and vinyl
19:44 blockh34d something wrong with balsa wood? it was suggested earlier
19:44 Mattx I think I can even sand it, it's kind of strong at the end
19:45 Mattx it looks good to create irregular shapes
19:45 blockh34d i'm going to be using strips of kevlar soon and liquid resin
19:45 Mattx blockh34d, nothing wrong with balsa wood except that it's harder to do
19:45 blockh34d so it hardens to a rounded form like papermache
19:46 blockh34d yes i think 3d printed maybe best even if kinda heavy
19:46 blockh34d maybe 3d printed plus metal foil tape
19:46 blockh34d so you can use very minimal 3d print
19:46 blockh34d a frame etc
19:46 blockh34d you know those tubes people use for proper quadros?
19:47 blockh34d i think they're carbon fiber
19:47 Mattx yep
19:47 Mattx they're boring
19:47 blockh34d seems like you could pick some of those up easy enough
19:47 Mattx all the quads around are the same
19:47 blockh34d ah yeah
19:47 blockh34d hey make that predator disc quadro
19:47 blockh34d wouldnt that be sweet?
19:47 Mattx haha
19:47 blockh34d you throw the frisbee and then guide it around
19:48 blockh34d and if you have my helmet, you get to do it with your eyes/mind
19:48 Mattx why don't you do it yourself? we can share knowldege in the process :P
19:48 blockh34d hey great plan, check out ##openarms thats what its all about, open source arms/armor research
19:48 blockh34d but i wouldnt weaponize the disc
19:48 blockh34d i believe that would be highly illegal
19:49 blockh34d maybe a sweet way to go hunting
19:49 blockh34d not that i hunt but if i did, i think remote guided camera razor frisbees would be a sweet way to do it
21:04 orlock woo
21:04 orlock http://peges.de/astro/steuerung/arduino/noMide/noMide.ino
22:29 MrCurious cylender 2 and cylender 5 are misfiring
22:29 MrCurious cylinder
22:30 MrCurious got me a nice engine code reader... all de-lux
22:32 Tom_itx $?
22:35 GuShH_ what a terrible place to mount a bench grinder... http://mla-s2-p.mlstatic.com/torno-turri-t180-con-hidrocopiador-12664-MLA20062711752_032014-F.jpg and shame on him for the rest.
22:36 Triffid_Hunter GuShH_: wtf.. is that concreted into the wall?
22:36 GuShH_ Triffid_Hunter: it's mounted, somehow, to the wall. my point is the grinding dust would land on the ways of the lathe... terrible idea.
22:37 GuShH_ where my grinder is, the whole surface is covered with said dust (and metal particles as well) ... I wouldn't want that over any machine.
22:38 GuShH_ the condition some of these machines are in also beats me...
22:38 MrCurious $100
22:38 MrCurious has usb to graph data
22:38 GuShH_ MrCurious: I wanna bet you have a blown head gasket.
22:39 GuShH_ do a compression test on all cylinders.
22:40 orlock no computers in my car
22:40 orlock thank god
22:40 GuShH_ your cellphone is considered a computer!
22:40 GuShH_ so, you lied.
22:41 orlock but, my mobile phone is not in my car
22:41 GuShH_ MrCurious: if compression is low on those cylinders, could be a valve issue or a gasket issue, easily.
22:41 orlock its on my desk
22:41 orlock :P
22:41 GuShH_ well, when you are in the car, chances are the cellphone is with you?
22:41 orlock or worn pistons/bores/rings
22:41 MrCurious or oil leak fouling the plugs
22:42 GuShH_ MrCurious: you have to remove each plug to test the compression anyway.
22:43 GuShH_ easy to read plugs, no need to school anyone on that.
22:43 GuShH_ but, you can also check if you've got arcing going on.
22:43 GuShH_ as that would lower the potential to those parks, causing ignition problems.
22:43 GuShH_ sparks*
22:43 GuShH_ rather, plugs. I'm tired...
22:48 MrCurious mechanic says plugs or coil for each plug
22:48 GuShH_ how old is this thing ffs?
22:49 GuShH_ if you have a scope you can use a simple inductor pickup to probe each plug (over the wire) without removing anything.
22:49 MrCurious 9 years
22:50 MrCurious or just pull plugs, clean and gap em, and put em back in
22:50 MrCurious or even just swap 2 plugs
22:50 GuShH_ but it's two cylinders misfiring, not just one.
22:50 GuShH_ that's a clue.
22:51 GuShH_ do take all plugs out, without mixing them, read 'em
22:51 GuShH_ black, fouled, white, ok.
22:52 orlock last time i removed plugs, they had _oil_ on them somehow
22:52 GuShH_ not good.
22:52 orlock been fince since then
22:53 orlock bloody pissy 1.8l boxer
22:53 GuShH_ if the oil was all over the ceramic insulator, that's the boots that cracked / failed
22:53 ShH_ burps into MrCurious' en
22:54 MrCurious i am betting on oil.
22:54 GuShH_ just remove the plugs you girl.
22:54 MrCurious which probably leads to that silvery blue translucent gas that comes out the rear
22:54 orlock what sort of car?
22:54 GuShH_ gasoline obviously
22:54 GuShH_ 4 stroke, most likely 4 cylinder.
22:55 MrCurious 6 cyl honda odssey
22:55 MrCurious i screwed up the rings
22:55 GuShH_ aww I was close
22:55 GuShH_ which rings
22:55 MrCurious cylinder
22:55 GuShH_ you have oil rings, seal rings, etc.
22:55 GuShH_ women tend to screw up engines.
22:56 orlock my GFhad her old car stop one day, and she assumed it was out of oil
22:56 orlock so she put some more in
22:57 GuShH_ siezing... that's bad.
22:57 orlock her father, who had been working on cars his whole life, for some reason gave her a contianer of _old_ oil, and she didnt know any better
22:57 GuShH_ orlock: but, it wasn't out of oil, was it...
22:57 orlock she thought it was supposed to be black, like crude is
22:57 ShH_ raises an eye
22:58 orlock i think it ended up in a tow and an oil change
22:58 orlock 1973 GMH 6 cyl
22:58 GuShH_ orlock: anyway oil on plugs is the grommets (I call them boots because it makes sense to me)
22:58 orlock unkillable
22:58 rue_house have to change the oil in the truck, its tar again
22:58 GuShH_ rue_house: the one that had oiling issues?
22:58 GuShH_ on the valve train
22:58 GuShH_ caked
22:59 orlock GuShH_: NFI, replaced plugs+filters+ etc, all good. one of the previous owners had replaced the first/primary fuel filter with 4" of copper tube
22:59 GuShH_ :|
22:59 orlock so the secondary underbonnet filter (which never gets clogged or replaced) got clugged
22:59 orlock got great economy though, not so good driving up hills.. i live on the side of a mountain
23:00 orlock subaru brumby, sold as a Brat over there
23:01 rue_house yea
23:01 rue_house its been pretty good after I changes it out a few times and upped it to 10w instead of 5w
23:02 rue_house it just started sounding ill again today, and the oil was at the bottom of "ok"