#robotics Logs
Mar 30 2014
#robotics Calendar
00:13 GargantuaSauce_ is 1mm rigid enough to be useful?
01:06 rue_more interesting turnover system
01:24 i-make-robots GargantuaSauce_: I mentioned you in tonight's blog post. Thanks again!
01:24 GargantuaSauce_ it was just a quick google lol
01:25 GargantuaSauce_ but ok cool!
01:25 MrCurious behold! the power of the google!
01:26 i-make-robots GargantuaSauce_: here's my crab. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3ySNng9vsg
01:27 MrCurious is it me, ,or are the legs kind of wobbly?
01:28 MrCurious maybe flex in the plexi, or in the servo horns
01:28 MrCurious but very cool
01:28 MrCurious nice gait as well as a smooth body roll
01:31 GargantuaSauce_ yeah the two parallel plates for the legs dont really add much rigidity unfortunately
01:31 GargantuaSauce_ i really have been spoiled by these aluminium brackets
02:58 elektrinis hi
02:58 elektrinis what do you think about this cnc?
02:58 elektrinis http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-Axis-Column-Type-Engraving-Machine-High-pricision-Ball-Screw-CNC-3040-Table-/251354213059?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a85e0eac3
09:51 luissk8 hi! anyone into microchip ucontrolers development? i was wondering if i can connect my chip direcly into rs232 port without any programmer...
09:52 ace4016 depends in the chip, but yes
09:52 ace4016 on*
09:53 luissk8 ace4016: thats what i though. is there any website with info on that?
09:53 luissk8 ace4016: beside the microchip resources ofc.
10:21 GargantuaSauce luissk8: you need a bootloader on the mcu for that, which needs to be flashed by a programmer
10:21 GargantuaSauce little bootstrapping problem there (literally) if you don't have something to program it with at first
10:22 GargantuaSauce (also you'd need an rs232 transceiver, can't just plug the serial port right into the micro's uart)
10:26 ace4016 luissk8, the chip's datasheet will be your best bet. the implementation isn't consistent amongst all chips
11:18 luissk8 okioki.ty guys
11:36 rue_bed ide programmer uses discrete chips
12:13 MrCurious rue_bed: can you re-phrase that to be clearer?
12:14 rue_more the isp programmer that I designed that ataches to an ide port on the motherboard of a computer is designed with discerete logic chips and therefore helps the boostrap problem of avr programming to the hobyist that is trying to get set up to work with them
12:15 rue_more see how much more compact it all was the first way I said it?
12:16 MrCurious first was shorter, but second actually delivers the message
12:16 MrCurious what do you mean by ide port on a motherboard...
12:16 MrCurious are yuo saying serial, usb parallel, or some other beast
12:16 GargantuaSauce did you seriously bitbang a fucking microcontroller programmer on the PATA port
12:17 rue_more I really dislike having to say or type things on my keyboard in long ways that describe every single term that was used in what was trying to be said
12:17 MrCurious snap
12:17 MrCurious IDE
12:17 GargantuaSauce well the "abridged" form was unintelligible
12:17 rue_more GargantuaSauce, I made a ponyprog that operates from an ide cable
12:17 MrCurious actually GargantuaSauce said it way cleaner
12:18 rue_more http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/tutorials/elex/ata2isp/main.html
12:18 MrCurious IDE port hung programmer uses discrete chips to program embedded micro controlers
12:19 MrCurious ide resolves to defunct ide port and current usage interactive development environment
12:19 GargantuaSauce i thought it was integrated development environment :/
12:19 rue_more its one of the last isa ports available on a new computer
12:19 MrCurious french speakers...
12:20 GargantuaSauce hahah PCs havent had pata ports for 5 years
12:20 MrCurious IDE ports are becoming more and more scarce
12:21 GargantuaSauce i didnt know you could make one act as a parallel port though, that's wonky and awesome
12:21 rue_more GargantuaSauce, but PCI dosn't seem to be able to go away because they cant make computers with enough pci express ports, so you can use a pci-ide card
12:21 rue_more you have 8 16 bit ports on an ide channel
12:21 MrCurious suppose you can use the address and data bits, but how to get them to hold long enough to be useful
12:21 GargantuaSauce pci is getting quite scarce also
12:21 GargantuaSauce but yeah this is interesting news
12:21 rue_more 3 adress bits, 16 data bits, read and write
12:22 GargantuaSauce i was just dreading breaking out an actual parallel port for linuxcnc
12:22 Curious mockingly notes this would have been earth shaking 10+ years ag
12:22 rue_more yea, 10+ years ago my page didn't get the publicity
12:23 rue_more and I was struggling with read/write polarity
12:23 MrCurious now i understand, i can say good job, cool project
12:26 rue_bed I have an io board with a few 8255 on it too
12:28 MrCurious i worked with an 8255 back in my TRS-80 model 1 level ii days to break out 166 bits output and 8 bits input
12:28 MrCurious 16
12:30 GargantuaSauce i was just going to halfass a microcontroller motion controller but screw that, jamming some .1" jumpers in an old pc and trying linuxcnc
12:35 GargantuaSauce man i have more failed usb drives than good ones
13:11 rue_more what brand?
13:12 GargantuaSauce a chinese shit one, a patriot one, a rather expensive kingston one....
13:13 rue_more huh
13:13 rue_more I wish someone would make a ust really cheap 512M one
13:13 GargantuaSauce you can get 1GB ones made for branding in bulk really cheap
13:13 rue_more I hate having to buy a 8G flash drive to move a 27k word document
13:14 rue_more I'v not seen any 1G
13:15 MrCurious anything under 16g is typically useless
13:15 MrCurious if its a 27k file... f'in email it to yourself or dropbox it
13:15 rue_more why do I need a 16G drive to transport a 27k word document?
13:16 rue_more how about if there isn't internet ont he other end?
13:16 MrCurious no internet?
13:16 MrCurious no sense being therethen
13:16 rue_more not everywhere in the world has internet you know
13:16 MrCurious also android phones doube as flash drives
13:16 MrCurious same with iphones
13:17 MrCurious are you saying canada is largely disconnected
13:17 MrCurious or are we talking about somewhere-africa that neither oof us will EVER go
13:18 rue_more iphones wont just pretent they are a flash drive, from my experiance, you HAVE TO USE ITUNES WHICH WILL NOT RUN ON ANYTHING OTHER THAN MACOS AND WINDOWS
13:18 MrCurious i suppose you could make an atmega based micro flash drive... that would be abe to hold a 27k document
13:18 MrCurious but not much more
13:18 MrCurious you can stash files on them without itunes
13:18 MrCurious "theres an app for that"
13:18 rue_more I also work with the technically incompitent
13:19 MrCurious oh
13:19 MrCurious well you should have said so
13:19 MrCurious handit to them in printed form...
13:19 MrCurious letthem type it back in
13:19 MrCurious it will feel more natural for them
13:19 rue_more clients that could not understand how to access a dropbox or ger a file out of their email cleint
13:19 rue_more paper costs more than a 4G flash drive
13:20 MrCurious do not assist such clients. you protect them from teh darwin effect, thuspropigating bad corporate genes, weakening your country
13:20 MrCurious dont hate canada...
13:20 rue_more paying my mortguage relies on these people
13:20 MrCurious help keep canada strong. dont tolerate stupid companies
13:21 rue_more not companies, people]
13:22 MrCurious i will stop poking the rue with a stick now.
13:22 e_more beats Mr_Sheesh with a wiffle
13:22 rue_more oops, I missed
13:22 MrCurious hah!
13:22 GargantuaSauce your human shield has seen a lot of use lately
13:23 MrCurious lucky yu didnthit robotustra_ with that
13:23 MrCurious he has automated the process of giving... the evil eye...
13:23 rue_more hmm I guess I should make my fire alarm circuit tester today
13:24 MrCurious did you just say "smoke em if you got em"?
13:24 Tom_itx test it with a real fire
13:24 rue_more its a loop tester
13:24 MrCurious I am not an expert, but I have read most of the internet...
13:25 rue_more just gives you a quick trouble/normal/alarm indicator
13:25 _Sheesh eyes rue_more dubiously,
13:25 e_more offers Mr_Sheesh a lol
13:25 MrCurious careful. he will probably beat you with that blunt lollipop
13:26 Mr_Sheesh Yeayh, but how'd I return it once I took it away? :p
13:27 e_more gives MrCurious a lolipop laced with
13:27 Mr_Sheesh He might make a smoothie with that; we'll see
13:28 e_more has brief conusion over which box of lolipops was lace
13:30 rue_more I have to get up and do something today
13:30 e_more mumbles something about labeling the lolipop b
13:31 Mr_Sheesh Color code the handles? Or only lace certain flavors? Consistency rules :)
13:34 GargantuaSauce or just lace all of them and be done with it
13:36 robotustra_ thinking how human sight works
13:37 GargantuaSauce not like a camera.
13:37 rue_more the 2d layer or the 3d layer
13:37 GargantuaSauce it's not strictly 2d
13:37 robotustra_ 2nd layer
13:37 robotustra_ not 2D
13:37 rue_more different layers
13:37 rue_more eyes see 2d
13:37 rue_more mind sees 3d
13:38 GargantuaSauce there's multiple layers of convolutions and little distinction between differentials in the space and time domains
13:38 GargantuaSauce it's fucked
13:38 robotustra_ no
13:38 robotustra_ I'm thinking about algoruthm of lookup
13:39 robotustra_ if the picture is steady eyes just do slow browsing
13:39 robotustra_ or small hops with big delays
13:39 GargantuaSauce the density of rod&cone cells on the retina is not uniform but there's about as much signalling devoted to the edges as the middle
13:39 robotustra_ if there is a motion on perefery it tries to turn eyes/head to that direction
13:40 GargantuaSauce as a result the outside is much more sensitive to movement/change
13:40 rue_more syes do a certian amount of image stabalization for the brain
13:40 robotustra_ GargantuaSauce: I dont' care about retina
13:40 robotustra_ eye nerve works at 800 Hz
13:41 rue_more ok
13:41 rue_more 800fps?
13:41 robotustra_ it does a seties of about 260 snapshots
13:41 rue_more ah
13:41 robotustra_ yes
13:41 robotustra_ and do a delay after
13:41 rue_more what duty?
13:41 robotustra_ 25 fps
13:41 robotustra_ after all conversions
13:42 rue_more well, lets not involve the mind
13:42 rue_more that sounds like oversampling
13:42 rue_more hmm
13:42 robotustra_ yep
13:42 rue_more how many frames/sample that average
13:42 rue_more 260/sec?
13:42 robotustra_ no
13:42 robotustra_ 800
13:42 rue_more 800/sec for 260
13:43 robotustra_ it's a speed of eye nerve
13:43 rue_more right, were talking transfer time vs volume of data transfered
13:43 robotustra_ but eye is usually does a series of 260 frames
13:43 rue_more 260 over what timeframe?
13:43 robotustra_ I don't know what are delays
13:44 rue_more 260 freames at 800 frames/sec?
13:44 robotustra_ 1 second I guess
13:44 robotustra_ yes
13:44 rue_more ok we can work out the duty
13:44 rue_more I get 32.5%
13:44 robotustra_ yep
13:45 rue_more also implied is that 260 frames taken in 1 sec, are boiled down to 26 comprehensive frames
13:45 robotustra_ the duty I think depends on stress and conditions
13:45 rue_more which means 10x oversampling
13:45 rue_more biolology is all squishy numbers
13:45 robotustra_ 10x is not so bad
13:45 rue_more so every frame you see was made of ~10 snapshots
13:45 robotustra_ yep
13:46 robotustra_ actually I think there is a correction which should take into account the motion of yeys
13:46 robotustra_ eyes
13:46 robotustra_ I do 25 fps for my eyes
13:47 robotustra_ and I don't need any correction for motion
13:48 robotustra_ now I need to implement an algorythm of motion detect and focusing on the meving or nearest object
13:50 robotustra_ may be a couple of weeks
13:51 GargantuaSauce still think you need limit switches or position feedback
13:52 GargantuaSauce visual servoing kind of sucks
13:53 GargantuaSauce also <GargantuaSauce_> robotustra: what thickness polycarbonate do you use?
13:53 GargantuaSauce <GargantuaSauce_> is 1mm rigid enough to be useful?
13:57 robotustra_ 6 mm
13:57 robotustra_ I don't need limiters, because I most probably will not need a calibration after
13:58 robotustra_ 1 mm is very flexible
13:59 GargantuaSauce k
14:01 robotustra_ still think you need limit switches or position feedback
14:01 robotustra_ I detect edge programmatically
14:01 robotustra_ now
14:01 GargantuaSauce i think motion tracking will work much better if you can do the motion control loop at a much higher rate than the camera's framerate
14:03 robotustra_ it takes 0.015 sec to do a hop from position to position
14:03 robotustra_ so I loose 1 frame per hop
14:04 robotustra_ what do you mean "motion control loop"?
14:04 GargantuaSauce i mean controlling the position of the eyes
14:05 robotustra_ I have detectors
14:06 GargantuaSauce oh i thought you said you weren't going to do that
14:06 GargantuaSauce cool
14:06 robotustra_ and I get it right after the eye stops
14:06 robotustra_ immedeately
14:09 robotustra_ http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/maholet/24765393/25120/25120_600.jpg
14:09 robotustra_ here is a sensor of camera position
15:41 rue_more zippo:/files/sounds# calc "60 - 60 + 60 - 60 + 60 - 60 + 60"
15:41 rue_more 60 - 60 + 60 - 60 + 60 - 60 + 60 -->> -60.000000
15:41 rue_more oh rrrrrly!?
15:41 rue_more this will be an interesting bug
15:42 Tom_itx feelin better?
15:43 rue_more no, I think someone else got ahold of me
15:47 rue_more http://paste.debian.net/90627/
15:47 rue_more hmmm
15:48 rue_more huh
15:48 rue_more it did 60-60 and got 60
15:49 rue_more but it should have done the +, not the -
15:49 rue_more hmmm
15:50 rue_more lines 51 thru 54
15:54 rue_more wtf
15:58 rue_more http://paste.debian.net/90628/
16:03 GargantuaSauce lol
16:03 rue_more it comes to
16:03 rue_more 60-60+60
16:03 GargantuaSauce think you fucked the dog a little on that on
16:03 GargantuaSauce yeah
16:04 GargantuaSauce = 60-120
16:04 GargantuaSauce hurr
16:04 rue_more and it does the 60+60 first
16:04 rue_more so it gets 60-120
16:04 rue_more which is -60
16:04 rue_more wtf
16:04 rue_more why does that math not work
16:05 GargantuaSauce because subtraction is non-associative
16:06 rue_more its +60 - +60 + +60
16:06 GargantuaSauce if you did it from the right it'd work but still be flawed in the same way
16:07 GargantuaSauce you cant just take an algebraic expression and do operator precedence as a priority queue
16:07 GargantuaSauce you have to make a parse tree
16:08 GargantuaSauce it can be a stack if you can tolerate reverse polish notation
16:08 rue_more less priority, I just chew from one end
16:09 rue_more how are you suggesting the tree break up 60-60+60
16:10 GargantuaSauce i guess you could just set - to have a higher priority than + and that might work
16:10 GargantuaSauce - is non-associative
16:10 GargantuaSauce you can't just cram the result from other operations in there
16:10 rue_more I can bump the + priority,
16:11 rue_more it uses a reduction
16:11 rue_more http://paste.debian.net/90632/
16:11 rue_more this seems to be a shortform of the issue
16:12 rue_more dosn't that imply that * should trump /
16:12 GargantuaSauce no they are associative
16:12 GargantuaSauce (a/b)*c = a*c/b
16:13 GargantuaSauce anyway as i said changing the priority is a bandaid
16:13 GargantuaSauce it's still wrong and you'll likely run into another issue
16:13 rue_more how do you suggest 60-60+60 be done.
16:14 GargantuaSauce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parse_tree
16:15 rue_more wikipedia articles are not practical for real world implementation, you tell me
16:15 GargantuaSauce you aren't going to successfully implement a calculator without understanding any theory
16:16 GargantuaSauce it just doesnt work like that
16:16 GargantuaSauce "real world" is irrelevant
16:16 GargantuaSauce you're dealing with a fundamentally theoretical construct
16:17 GargantuaSauce you can't just bang rocks together until it works
16:17 GargantuaSauce there's a set of axioms that form the foundations for it all working
16:18 rue_more well the difference between my linked list and you tree is symantic
16:18 GargantuaSauce lol
16:19 GargantuaSauce ok then buddy
16:19 rue_more the priritoes make it a tree
16:19 GargantuaSauce no, they make it a priority queue
16:20 rue_more the only difference I see between how I would do this by hand and how its doing it is that I start from the left side
16:20 GargantuaSauce there is more going on than you're aware of, it's just too obvious to be considered
16:21 GargantuaSauce and the naive algorithm that results from that is not sufficient
16:21 rue_more (((((((60-11.28)+40)-20)+4.50)-82.72)-70.60)+100) -->> 19.900000
16:21 rue_more and whenI force it to, it gets the right answer
16:21 GargantuaSauce so go left to right and call it a day
16:22 rue_more I wonder why I start from the right
16:24 rue_more oh, because it starts from the left and remembers the last one it found with the highest priority
16:27 GargantuaSauce i gotta run
16:27 GargantuaSauce think about 2^2^3
16:36 rue_more eeek
16:38 rue_more zippo:/files/programming/c/Equation/eqv4# calc 2^8
16:38 rue_more 2^8 -->> 3.000000
16:38 rue_more thank god, its an unsupported operation
17:07 rue_more yaya! I have my setup for playing with charlieplexing
17:10 MrCurious mis-using a charlieplexed LED array as a sun orientation detector
17:28 i-make-robots added bearings to my 3DOF arm. Now to mount the electronics so there's less on the table.
18:20 rue_shop2 have a pic of the robot up?
18:22 rue_shop2 so, a bunch of the printers I was donated have large peices of 3/4' steel plate in them for counterweights
18:23 rue_shop2 this excites me, tho I can remember what I wanted thick plate for
18:32 rue_more the truck check engine light dosn't come one anymore!, maybe its finally happy! (or burned out...)
18:35 Tom_itx sensor fix it?
18:55 rue_shop2 iuts made one heck of a difference
18:56 rue_shop2 it'll be months before I know any difference in the fuel economy
18:59 Tom_itx funny how the temp sensor messes with the tuning
19:00 rue_more with everything
19:00 rue_more last time I took it into the shop I asked them to retune it, they said you cant cause of it being computerized
19:00 rue_more every time you shut downteh engine, it would clear the temp sensor fault
19:01 Tom_itx hmm
19:01 Tom_itx mine registered the fault
19:01 Tom_itx you can read it yourself
19:01 Tom_itx i forget how but it flashes dash lights with a code
19:02 rue_more mine didn't
19:02 Tom_itx you short a couple pins on the plug and it returns the codes
19:02 Tom_itx did you short the pins?
19:02 rue_more it says, 12 to day its in diagnostic mode, and then says 12 again, which, if you can find it say something about timing,
19:02 rue_more most places dont list code 12 because the first 12 is to say its in diag.
19:03 Tom_itx my book may show them, i dunno
19:03 rue_more I'v seen countless websites
19:03 rue_more none of them I could be sure were an exact match,
19:03 rue_more usually, at the last link, they obfiscate what engies the list is for
19:04 Tom_itx i could check but i'm lazy
19:04 rue_more no worries, I'm good now
19:05 rue_more has your diet changed much from 2 years ago?
19:05 Tom_itx not alot
19:05 Tom_itx why?
19:05 rue_more your energy level seems different
19:05 rue_more I think
19:06 rue_more spring is comming and I'm about to hit that "motivated to do everything" ... thing
19:07 Tom_itx i lack motivation
19:07 rue_more if (0)
19:08 rue_more it lacks motivation too
19:08 Tom_itx it's like trying to empty a swimming pool with a cup that's being filled with a hose
19:09 rue_more hmm I have 6 leds on 3 wires, charleplexed
19:10 rue_more the wires are i, j, k
19:10 rue_more so, one led is between i and j
19:10 rue_more and is between j and i
19:10 rue_more one is between i and k
19:10 rue_more one is between k and i
19:10 rue_more j, k
19:10 rue_more and k, j
19:12 rue_more Tom_itx, done any charlieplexing?
19:12 Tom_itx nope
19:12 rue_more I was trolling for good coding methods, didn't see any
19:12 rue_more this is the tiny13 with 2 adc channels and 5 leds
19:12 rue_more :)
19:13 rue_more I'm writing a c program to think out everything for me
19:17 rue_more ok, filter results...
19:18 rue_more H H L -> 0 0 1 0 0 1
19:18 rue_more H Z L -> 0 0 1 0 0 0
19:18 rue_more H L H -> 1 0 0 0 1 0
19:18 rue_more H L Z -> 1 0 0 0 0 0
19:18 rue_more H L L -> 1 0 1 0 0 0
19:18 rue_more Z H L -> 0 0 0 0 0 1
19:18 rue_more Z L H -> 0 0 0 0 1 0
19:18 rue_more L H H -> 0 1 0 1 0 0
19:18 rue_more L H Z -> 0 1 0 0 0 0
19:18 rue_more L H L -> 0 1 0 0 0 1
19:18 rue_more L Z H -> 0 0 0 1 0 0
19:18 rue_more L L H -> 0 0 0 1 1 0
19:20 rue_more H H L -> 0 0 1 0 0 1
19:20 rue_more H Z L -> 0 0 1 0 0 0
19:20 rue_more H L H -> 1 0 0 0 1 0
19:20 rue_more H L Z -> 1 0 0 0 0 0
19:20 rue_more H L L -> 1 0 1 0 0 0
19:20 rue_more Z H L -> 0 0 0 0 0 1
19:20 rue_more Z L H -> 0 0 0 0 1 0
19:20 rue_more L H H -> 0 1 0 1 0 0
19:20 rue_more L H Z -> 0 1 0 0 0 0
19:21 rue_more L H L -> 0 1 0 0 0 1
19:21 rue_more L Z H -> 0 0 0 1 0 0
19:21 rue_more L L H -> 0 0 0 1 1 0
19:21 rue_more I should have drawn a line
19:21 rue_more rhs is 2 leds on
19:22 rue_more huh, I'll have to POV the charleplexed leds...
19:36 Tom_itx rue_more, guys in seattlerobotics have done it
19:36 rue_more :)
22:14 rue_more https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPml5xC_I00
22:56 i-make-robots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObzyILAJFGQ
23:04 rue_shop2 seen it!
23:04 rue_shop2 via hackaday
23:04 rue_shop2 nice design
23:04 rue_shop2 your robot?
23:24 MrCurious just realized the "ship" on cosmos with neil degrassie tyson is a side on view of a eye, rotated 90
23:24 MrCurious very cleer choice for "the ship of the imagination"
23:26 MrCurious clever rather