#robotics Logs

Mar 21 2014

00:08 rue_more I'm gonna post a nonlinear-spacetime warning sticker on the shop when I find one
00:09 rue_more http://lifeboat.com/images/nonstandard.spacetime.warning.jpg
00:10 rue_more http://lifeboat.com/images/motivation.hazard.warning.jpg
00:10 rue_more there is a new one
00:10 Faek Not entirely sure of the meaning of nonlinear spacetime
00:12 rue_more http://www.terilogy.com/product/eg-innovations/blog/images/img_20120703_03.jpg
00:12 rue_more hahahaha
00:17 rue_more its means, basically that normal attributes of time and space dont apply in the affected area
00:17 rue_more have you ever removed all the items from a shop, and their sum volume was more than the volume of the shop?
06:20 theBear two days in a row ! what do you people want from me ? heh, i'm ok
12:54 Toneloc Hey everyone! Looking to make my (almost) first foray into robotics- I'm currently lloking at pneumatics- can anyone suggest a good book for this subject? I'm not interested in theory, just looking for a book that tells you about the different types of rams, cylinders, valves etc. so that you can know enough to go order parts and build something that will work.
13:13 robopal- you want to start with pneumatics?
13:13 robopal- servos are more accessible
13:13 SlaveToTheSauce sounds a lot like sprinting before you can crawl
13:14 SlaveToTheSauce especially approaching it without any theory
13:14 SlaveToTheSauce you'll spend $500 on parts and get nowhere
13:16 Hukka Lego or vex pneumos :?
13:23 Toneloc robopal- I have electronics experience, some mechanical, and working knowledge of hydralics for farm machinery
13:24 Toneloc I have used servos, can do mcu's etc.
13:24 robopal- ah ok
13:25 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce-yes, that's why I was looking for a book :) Also, I have a little haste, because I know where there is a job lot of industrial "pulls" going
13:26 Toneloc thought they might be the perfect thing to get me going- a wide selection of different cylinders, valves and stuff- perfect when you don't really know what you need and just want to try things out
13:26 Toneloc also, if I get them cheap, I can play with them and sell them off again at little/no loss
13:28 Toneloc I also know where there is a compressor going for cheap, it's a lab type, not sure if it's suitable though.
13:30 Toneloc All the compressors we have at home are broken- A PTO driven compressor for the tractor and a huge (U boat sized !) main's driven thing belonging to my uncle
13:31 SlaveToTheSauce ok sounds slightly less failure-prone i guess
13:32 SlaveToTheSauce i am of the opinion that "knowing enough to go order parts and build something that will work" requires a rigorous knowledge of the theory in order to successfully engineer it without many many iterations
13:32 SlaveToTheSauce buuuut if you're getting a load of stuff to play with anyway
13:33 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- I see, is it possible to buy/make sort of an adjustable system, say where you can constantly change variables until you find something that works?
13:33 Toneloc I guess the limit in that would be cylinder size, dimensions etc- all finxed variables
13:33 SlaveToTheSauce not unless you find cylinders with variable bores and strokes
13:33 SlaveToTheSauce that would be cool
13:34 SlaveToTheSauce i believe the control/valve mechanisms are quite complex also, not exactly familiar with that part
13:34 SlaveToTheSauce things like bistable switches that trigger at specific pressures, etc
13:35 SlaveToTheSauce since you're going to do this anyway i'd suggest simply buying the joblot and then getting all the documentation for every part included
13:35 SlaveToTheSauce and let me know if you find some good literature because i'm interested too!
13:36 Toneloc I could see how variables strokes could be done- but variable bores would be impossible.
13:36 SlaveToTheSauce nothing is impossible!
13:37 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- you think I have already convinced myself?! lol
13:37 SlaveToTheSauce it could be like a big thick iris aperture
13:38 SlaveToTheSauce well is there an inventory list for the lot?
13:38 SlaveToTheSauce (or could you go inspect it)
13:38 Toneloc nope, just a heap of parts and pics
13:39 SlaveToTheSauce wow the lego pneumatics on bricklink are ridiculously expensive
13:40 f00bar80 rue_more, hey buddy just want to ask to know more about how i can balance the hinge of my robot arm, if you still remember
13:43 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce-most things genuine lego are expensive!
13:43 SlaveToTheSauce this is true
13:44 SlaveToTheSauce but you can get actual aluminium pneumatics for about the same cost
13:45 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- here's a pic of the stuff http://imgur.com/5c7s25I
13:45 SlaveToTheSauce so what do you want to make
13:46 SlaveToTheSauce and how much are they charging for that?
13:47 Toneloc Nothing too fancy, basically like pneumatic pushers, for moving tools, levers, perhaps even some form of a gantry system
13:48 SlaveToTheSauce so why pneumatics?
13:48 Toneloc easier/cheaper to implement than hydralics
13:48 Toneloc faster cycle time than solenoids
13:48 SlaveToTheSauce well to rephrase...why not motors
13:49 Toneloc and plus getting to learn a new area
13:49 SlaveToTheSauce okay so you want fast linear motion
13:49 Toneloc yes, correct
13:49 SlaveToTheSauce without much in the way of precision
13:49 Toneloc motors can't really give me that
13:50 Toneloc well, I was hoping by adding in my own sensors I could get precision
13:50 Toneloc sure, I culd do this with motors-but I would need to add in extra mechanics then
13:51 f00bar80 Toneloc, why not to use Meccano if lego is expensive
13:51 Toneloc but yeah, precision isn't really a
13:51 Toneloc *key
13:51 Toneloc f00bar80-because I'm working with real machines
13:52 Toneloc not lego or meccano
13:52 SlaveToTheSauce yeah i just looked up some lego stuff for the heck of it
13:53 Toneloc basically, I'm looking to build up the skills/tech to make my own industrial machines on the cheap
13:53 Toneloc also, this experience would make me much more employable
13:54 Toneloc but really, the whole idea behind this, is for some side hustles that I can start on the side- which I could conduct whilst having a full-time job and if I lost that, I could still live nicely then :)
13:56 Toneloc It's sort of like this- now is a bad time for this, but it's time will come and I will have the idea, so I want to be ready to run and know how/what technology to utilize to make my machine and get it up a running
13:56 Toneloc without having to do all the learning when time is precious
13:57 Toneloc *and
13:57 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- I guess, I do indeed, sound quite mad.
14:03 SlaveToTheSauce well you have to be to be in here
14:04 SlaveToTheSauce not gonna lie, i've been very tempted to just throw a few hundred dollars at this guy http://stores.ebay.ca/mrosolution?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
14:04 SlaveToTheSauce and start the next iteration of my hexapod as a hydraulic deal
14:04 SlaveToTheSauce er pneumatic
14:04 SlaveToTheSauce hydraulics are too scary
14:16 Toneloc sorry, got d/c
14:17 Toneloc hydralics are expensive- but they sure can do some great, big, ignorant tasks - like splitting logs !
14:17 Toneloc their cycle time is just soo slow
14:20 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- I have a feeling that pneumatics will follow the low "the sum of all the small, necessary bits shall greatly exceed the cost of all the big, obivious components"
14:21 SlaveToTheSauce maybe, maybe not
14:34 Toneloc *law
14:35 Toneloc like, regulators, valves, couplers etc. combined will cost more than cylinders, actuators etc.
14:36 SlaveToTheSauce oh i would put valves in the big and obvious category
14:36 SlaveToTheSauce and couplers and tubing seem pretty inexpensive
14:38 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- ok, fair enough I guess
14:38 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- do you have experience of pneumatics?
14:38 SlaveToTheSauce no you're doing irc wrong, we're supposed to argue semantics now
14:38 SlaveToTheSauce zero
14:39 SlaveToTheSauce otherwise my ramblings would have been of much more use
14:40 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- lololollol haha that is so true- a holy flame war would be an irc-appropiate response right about now ! lol
14:41 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce-I gt you- all any of us can do is add our two cents, but it's always good to talk to other people about these things- It checks one's thinking and sometimes uncovers unconsidered solutions
14:44 SlaveToTheSauce and that's why we're here
14:45 Toneloc that's it
14:45 Toneloc so, what bots have you made SlaveToTheSauce ?
14:46 SlaveToTheSauce http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vBi6LNklRg is the most complete thing i have on the go
14:47 SlaveToTheSauce i have a lot of other irons in the fire though
14:50 SlaveToTheSauce so i found that guy's ebay listing
14:52 SlaveToTheSauce there's definitely a couple hundred dollars worth of stuff there
14:52 SlaveToTheSauce also make sure you get his other listing with the 4 big cylinders
14:56 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- that's really cool- I also looked at your Beaglebone Black based bot
14:56 Toneloc why did you use BB for it?
14:56 SlaveToTheSauce uhhh
14:56 SlaveToTheSauce i don't have a beaglebone
14:57 Toneloc lololo
14:57 Toneloc looked at someone else's video !haha
14:57 SlaveToTheSauce my soc of choice is the allwinner ones
14:57 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- yes, that stuff looks cool
14:58 Toneloc but I'm sur many other people think the same
14:58 Toneloc the shipping will be quite expensive due to weight
14:58 SlaveToTheSauce oh so you've found someone to ship it? looks like the seller himself won't
14:59 Toneloc well, I will get a courier to collect
14:59 SlaveToTheSauce ah. yeah gonna be pricey for sure
14:59 Toneloc yeah, so i would probably need to buy everything he has for economy of scale
15:00 Toneloc them sell of some of the those 4 big ones locally to try to offset some of the cost
15:00 SlaveToTheSauce the big ones go for $500 new i think
15:00 Toneloc hmm, not this sid eof the pond
15:01 Toneloc they aren't that expensive
15:01 Toneloc *side of
15:15 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- the courier price isn't actually too bad, so i think i will try and get that stuff :)
15:15 SlaveToTheSauce sweet
15:15 Toneloc It will force me to learn ! haha
15:16 Toneloc electronics gets boring- getting it to do "real life" work will make it more interesting
15:17 SlaveToTheSauce thats why i got into this stuff too, except as a software guy
15:18 Toneloc yeah, you need to mix it to keep it interesting
15:18 Toneloc I'm an electronics guy
15:18 Toneloc who done a bit of embedded
15:18 Toneloc software
15:18 Toneloc during project work, a degree in embedded and some hobby stuff
15:19 Toneloc I'm finished college in the summer
15:20 Toneloc and got a job working in television
15:20 Toneloc I'm being trained on the job and have a few years of "learning" ahead of me
15:22 Toneloc it's interesting- I get to do alot of "one off's"
15:22 Toneloc but no robotics/controls
15:23 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- they did tell me about a system they had, where all their media was tape based, and instead of someone loading tapes manually, they had a robotic arm that would locate the correct tape, the correct player and load the tape into it.
15:26 SlaveToTheSauce a pretty quaint solution in light of modern digital storage
15:30 Toneloc yes, indeed
15:31 Toneloc they told me after 7 years it gave trouble
15:31 Toneloc and needed to be replaced
15:33 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- here it is>>
15:33 Toneloc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fTJkVgRvpw
15:33 SlaveToTheSauce cool
15:33 SlaveToTheSauce i definitely see room for that going very wrong.
15:38 SlaveToTheSauce that's certainly something that's struck me in the transition from software-only development to software+electronics+robotics
15:38 SlaveToTheSauce in software if you fuck up, you get a segfault or maaybe some data deleted
15:39 SlaveToTheSauce with robots, that code is controlling hundreds of watts or more of power and there's all sorts of room for mechanical destruction, thermal "events", etc
15:41 SlaveToTheSauce http://xn--d-bga.su/deadservo.jpg i did this with an uninitialized pointer :)
15:42 Toneloc sorry, got d/c
15:47 Toneloc .test
15:47 Toneloc sorry, got d/c
15:47 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce-well, robotics is quite tough- it's software+electronics+mechanical
15:48 Toneloc mechanical is a mindfeild alone
15:48 Toneloc *mindfield
15:48 SlaveToTheSauce yeah any single part of that is, really
15:48 Toneloc I guess if you use all stock parts- it's easier
15:48 Toneloc but still, I know for things I always have to end up making something
15:48 SlaveToTheSauce well that's just deferring the hardness
15:49 SlaveToTheSauce and making assumptions about its function :V
15:49 Toneloc deferring the hardness?
15:49 SlaveToTheSauce to third party engineers
15:49 Toneloc ??
15:49 SlaveToTheSauce when you buy something, you're paying for other people to have engineered it
15:49 Toneloc Yes, and manufacture it
15:50 Toneloc When you make things yourself- you usually have to do both (at least to some degree)
16:17 Toneloc back again
16:18 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce-my connection is very bad tonight
16:18 Toneloc I think, it's my internet trying to tell me it's Friday night
16:18 Toneloc and that I should be out for beers and chasing girls ! lol
16:18 SlaveToTheSauce which is prime interneting time!
16:21 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce- this is true, but so is about 3am when I come back in again! lol
16:46 Toneloc SlaveToTheSauce-I think beer and girls win over IRC this time ! lol
16:47 SlaveToTheSauce get your priorities straight dude
16:48 Toneloc haha lol, pneumatics come before girls with inflated egos ! lol :P
23:21 rue_shop2 I cant hear right, my balance isnt 100% and I been watching too many horror movies, I dont feel real
23:27 GargantuaSauce inner ear infections are fucked
23:28 robotustra_ otitis?
23:31 GargantuaSauce i think it's usually specified as labrinthitis when it's the inner ear and balance is affected
23:40 rue_shop2 my balance is fine, but I have to fix the grade on the shop floor, 45 degrees just isn't close enough to level
23:40 GargantuaSauce that's gonna be pretty expensive
23:46 rue_shop2 there must be a 2 gate version of the 74xx14
23:49 GargantuaSauce i don't think there are any 74 series with a number of single-input gates that isn't 6
23:49 GargantuaSauce http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_7400_series_integrated_circuits
23:49 GargantuaSauce this is one of my favourite wiki lists
23:49 rue_shop2 74HC2G00 is reduced 7400
23:50 GargantuaSauce i guess there's 1g ones too
23:50 GargantuaSauce the more you know.
23:50 GargantuaSauce that's nands though. the reduced single-input ones are a single gate it looks like
23:50 rue_shop2 http://www.digikey.ca/product-search/en?x=0&y=0&lang=en&site=ca&KeyWords=74hc2g14
23:50 rue_shop2 sweet
23:51 GargantuaSauce jeez those are expensive
23:51 rue_shop2 7414 make GREAT oscillators
23:51 GargantuaSauce and arent you throughhole-only?
23:51 rue_shop2 ~
23:51 GargantuaSauce i find the schmitt ones don't have enough current output to drive a crystal properly
23:51 rue_shop2 er no
23:51 rue_shop2 I mean rc osc
23:52 GargantuaSauce i guess
23:52 rue_shop2 dk just proved they exist
23:52 GargantuaSauce i like 4046
23:52 rue_shop2 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-74HC2G14GW-125-6TSSOP-74HC2G14GW-1-74HC2G14-74HC2G14G-74HC2G14G-74HC2G1-74HC2G14GW/1581885353.html
23:54 GargantuaSauce actually i guess on my cmos computer i keep procrastinating on i used a nand gate for the ring oscillator
23:54 GargantuaSauce cause it has a built-in enable pin :)
23:54 rue_shop2 looks like 33c ea is the bot
23:55 rue_shop2 use a osc brick
23:55 GargantuaSauce and i have more than a hundred 4093s kicking around
23:55 rue_shop2 do I want to put out $10 for 30 of those...
23:55 GargantuaSauce do you really need to save the space that much?
23:56 GargantuaSauce its not like you cant use the other schmitts for switches or something