#robotics Logs

Dec 30 2013

00:01 rue_shop3 void Set3d (point3d_t *this, point3d_t that) ;
00:01 rue_shop3 void Scale3d (point3d_t *this, point3d_t that) ;
00:01 rue_shop3 void Rotate3d (point3d_t *this, point3d_t that) ;
00:01 rue_shop3 void Translate3d (point3d_t *this, point3d_t that) ;
00:01 rue_shop3 void Print3d (point3d_t *this) ;
00:01 rue_shop3 and its not even OOP!
00:02 rue_shop3 ok, I really need to work on this 3d printer
00:04 MrCurious the choice of this and that seems poor to me
00:04 MrCurious why not from to
00:23 rue_house :P cause I wrote it
00:23 Jak_o_Shadows Thank you santa claus for the set of cheap HSS drillbits
00:23 rue_house cheap would be chrome-molly
00:23 Jak_o_Shadows $9 for 14 drillbits.
00:23 rue_house as you drill you can watch the workpeace eat its way right thru the bit
00:25 GargantuaSauce my god that was satisfying
00:25 GargantuaSauce i knocked a couple of metre-long icicles off the roof
00:31 Duzz $9 for 14 drill bits would worry me
00:31 GargantuaSauce so get 3 sets!
00:32 Jak_o_Shadows I already broke the 2.5mm one :P
00:32 Jak_o_Shadows However, the stub still works.
00:32 Jak_o_Shadows that will do
00:33 MrCurious as i revisit code from 20 years ago.... long_anal_naming_schemes_suddenly_appear_useful
00:35 Duzz MrCurious, you have no idea how much I have to keep telling people to do that at work
00:35 Duzz I dont care if you can read you remember right now, you can forget and it becomes a huge pain for anyone else
00:36 MrCurious if you dont, ,then you must sprinkle /* here there be dragons */ through the code
00:36 Duzz lol
00:36 GargantuaSauce the only reason to use more than one letter in a variable name is when you already have 26 in scope.
00:37 Duzz I only agree with that if you are writting in assembly
01:03 MrCurious 26? snort ASCII.... UTF8
07:57 henry344 how do you get in DH matrix c1 in this example:
07:57 henry344 http://i.imgur.com/sOyLupB.png
07:57 henry344 cos(0) = 1
07:58 henry344 so it should be one there
08:21 robotustra henry, are you john888?
08:21 henry344 yes
08:21 robotustra I suppose that you are bot
08:21 henry344 no
08:21 henry344 can you answer the question?
08:22 henry344 i need it for my exam
08:22 robotustra I can't open this image at work
08:22 robotustra site is blocked
08:22 henry344 it's imgur
08:23 henry344 why is this blocked
08:23 henry344 http://i.imgur.com/sOyLupB.png
08:23 robotustra because youtube and imgur are blocked at my work
08:23 henry344 which site is not?
08:24 robotustra I don't know, try another cite
08:24 robotustra there are a lot of them
08:24 SquirrelCZECH_ robotustra: make proxy?
08:25 SquirrelCZECH_ :-)
08:25 uirrelCZECH_ asserts that you got NAT bl
08:25 henry344 http://shrani.si/f/1e/H/3UEraKYH/what.png
08:25 henry344 this is not blocked
08:25 robotustra I can do a tunnel, but I don't want
08:26 SquirrelCZECH_ OK then! :-)
08:26 henry344 ok, why is c1 there?
08:26 henry344 why isn't 1?
08:27 robotustra c1 == cos(-90)
08:27 robotustra c1 == 0
08:28 robotustra oh no
08:28 robotustra c1 = cos(theta1) = 1
08:29 robotustra "s" means "sin"
08:29 robotustra of corresponding angle
08:30 henry344 yes but if you look the last matrix A3, the first number is 1
08:31 henry344 why isn't then c3?
08:32 robotustra because it's a translation matrix
08:32 robotustra all diagonal elements of translation martix = 1
08:33 robotustra and there is a displacement along axis Z = L_3
08:33 henry344 what are then the first 2?
08:33 henry344 matrices
08:34 robotustra the first matrix - it's rotation + translation
08:34 robotustra the second - just rotation, without translation
08:34 robotustra the third - just translation without rotation
08:36 henry344 yes but shouldn't you just plug in the numbers to that example matrix
08:36 henry344 cos(theta1) = 1
08:37 henry344 then it's c1
08:38 robotustra hm, you have the general view of this matrix and it you put your angles there - you'll get exactly that matrices
08:38 robotustra yes you can put c3
08:38 robotustra which is 1
08:38 robotustra etc
08:38 robotustra as you wish
08:41 henry344 isn't the purpose to plug in the numbers and then multiply them to get the ending matrix
08:42 robotustra there are 2 possible way
08:43 robotustra 1) you multiply all matrices in general form and write out all elements in general form amd put your numbers in this formula
08:43 robotustra or
08:44 robotustra 2) you put numbers in matrices and after multiply matrices
08:44 robotustra you'll get the same result
09:14 GuShH_Lap damn country... no M14x1mm bolts anywhere
09:14 GuShH_Lap of ANY length
09:15 GuShH_Lap had to buy M18 just to turn them down to M14 and thread them myself... what kind of nightmare is this! Thought about M16, they had none that were long enough
09:29 robotustra GuShH_Lap: in belarus M14 is also very rare bolts
09:30 robotustra we did customs
09:38 Rayman1 Why is the cross product of A x (B X C) back in the xy-plane? All the A , B , and C are 3D vectors. http://www.twiddla.com/1440110
09:39 GuShH_Lap robotustra: but in Argentina the Metric system is standard
09:40 GuShH_Lap robotustra: however fine pitch threads are not often seen as standard... mostly coarse
09:40 GuShH_Lap don't ask me why
09:40 GuShH_Lap I actually got M16 not M18... I can't think straight with this heat
09:40 GuShH_Lap 33�C outside, feels like 37 or so
09:40 robotustra -11 outside
09:40 GuShH_Lap let's trade places
09:40 robotustra feels like +20 in the car
09:41 GuShH_Lap but the streets are not air conditioned
09:41 GuShH_Lap whether you have a car, bike or use public transport you MUST use the streets.
09:42 robotustra no, I have a garage under the building where is +20 also
09:42 GuShH_Lap robotustra: I wanted some grade 8 or better M14x1mm so I could make some taps for threading 13mm ID aluminum tubing
09:42 GuShH_Lap because to begin with I couldn't source M14x1 taps
09:42 GuShH_Lap only coarse ones
09:42 robotustra and 10-15 meters to walk from the car to the building
09:42 GuShH_Lap robotustra: bah I have a garage as well but I gotta get out anyway
09:43 GuShH_Lap I live in a house not an apartment
09:43 GuShH_Lap we are going through an energy crisis right now
09:43 GuShH_Lap people living in apartments have no light, no water...
09:43 GuShH_Lap in lots of places
09:43 GuShH_Lap I'm glad I don't live in an apartment.
09:43 GuShH_Lap I'd be murdering politicians otherwise
09:44 GuShH_Lap robotustra: so I could use coarse threads or slightly bigger sizes, but that would remove too much material from the tubing, I need them to hold 80BAR
09:44 GuShH_Lap my inside threading tools are too big for these sizes
09:44 GuShH_Lap should I try making my own from scratch?
09:45 GuShH_Lap anyway should a brownout occur around here I've got a genset pretty much ready to run.
09:46 GuShH_Lap I need to work on the new panel with the switchover, but that's just a detail
09:46 GuShH_Lap thought about using contactors instead of a manual override... not sure if it's a good idea
09:47 GuShH_Lap at the previous house we had a manual switch-over, there was no need for anything fancier since we only lost power once a year for an hour tops
09:47 GuShH_Lap I guess a massive inverter and a battery bank would be nice.... but too expensive.
09:47 ShH_Lap considered solar energy for a while but still thinks it needs to ma
09:48 GuShH_Lap an 85W bare panel costs 575 USD around here... it's nuts.
09:49 GuShH_Lap the 100W ones are about 600 bucks
09:49 GuShH_Lap (physical footprint: 1.2 meters by 0.55 meters)
09:51 GuShH_Lap the batteries cost just as much (105Ah 12V deep cycle)
09:56 robotustra use supercaps
09:56 GuShH_Lap they are even more expensive and hard to get here
09:56 robotustra I saw less expencive on ebay
09:56 GuShH_Lap plus these batteries last around 2 years tops...
09:57 GuShH_Lap it costs less to use the grid
09:57 GuShH_Lap robotustra: I can't ebay anymore
09:57 robotustra why?
09:57 GuShH_Lap ask the cunt we have in charge of the presidency.
09:57 robotustra ok
09:57 GuShH_Lap new taxes, more limitations.
09:57 GuShH_Lap there's nothing to be gained from ordering online anymore
09:57 GuShH_Lap not in argentina.
09:57 robotustra congrats
09:58 robotustra canada is also not so good to buy online
09:58 robotustra focking US
09:58 GuShH_Lap every commercial project I had has been busted because of this fucking country.
10:00 robotustra pity
12:23 MrCurious i love waking up to lucid flying dreams involving spae aliens, plot, advanced technology, ...
12:23 robotustra :)
12:24 robotustra too much beer I think
13:51 henry344 oh I get it now
13:51 henry344 is anyone here?
13:51 henry344 i have another question
13:53 henry344 if you see here an example
13:53 henry344 http://shrani.si/f/3f/DG/1Cmch1If/question2.png
13:53 henry344 for link 6 where alpha is zero
13:54 henry344 there is no change for rotation matrix
13:54 henry344 but when is -90 for link 5
13:54 henry344 there is
13:54 henry344 how do you compute the new rotation matrix
14:04 henry344 by new i mean not the standard one
14:30 rue_bed well, recon I'm gonna need lunch
14:31 Tom_itx re-con?
14:32 rue_bed henry344, not familiar with the context of the matrix
14:33 rue_bed is it a school problem or do yo uhave a real robot your writing software for
14:51 henry344 the matrix is the rotation matrix from DH convention
14:51 henry344 it's standard
14:52 henry344 but when you see a different angle then 0
14:52 henry344 you have to compute new one
14:52 henry344 but how?
15:00 Mahmoud hi -- why is it so hard to have robotic arms perfectly controlled by our own nerves just like how we command our real arms?
15:14 robotustra Mahmoud: do you have robotics limb?
15:14 Mahmoud robotustra: no, but i find it fascinating when thinking about the future
15:15 robotustra forget about mechanical limbs
15:15 robotustra they have no future
15:15 robotustra 3D printed libbs from organic materials
15:15 robotustra this is a future
15:15 Mahmoud do they move?
15:16 robotustra of cause
15:16 Mahmoud youtube vid?
15:19 robotustra why do you think that it will be on youtube?
15:19 robotustra if it'll appear only in 10 years
15:20 Mahmoud i wish to see it moving. any video material?
15:20 robotustra are you a prince of UAE?
15:21 robotustra AEU?
15:21 robotustra go home
15:21 botustra go
15:21 MrCurious they are already printing functioning body organs
15:21 MrCurious the simpler of the organs
15:22 Mahmoud MrCurious: links?
15:22 Mahmoud robotustra: no
15:22 MrCurious now imagine "Aliea" (from the first dune movie) 'singularity is coming'....
15:22 MrCurious does your countries yourube lack a search feature
15:23 MrCurious or are you not able to combine "3d printer" and "organs"
15:24 MrCurious some days i think this room needs an entry test, like amusement parks have "you have to be this tall to ride this ride"
15:25 Mahmoud how did you know my country?
15:26 MrCurious you have gone to lengths to obfuscate your location.
15:27 MrCurious i dont know your country. i have not been curious enough to investigate it yet
15:27 MrCurious did you type "3d organ printer" into youtube yet?
15:27 Mahmoud robotustra: how did you know
15:27 Mahmoud MrCurious: yeah, watching a ted talk
15:29 MrCurious isnt everyone in UAE a prince. nobody works, govt pays all citizens. only workers there are imported
15:29 MrCurious now here is a thought.... Travel Channel + NSA = a tv channel that shows us no matter how different we look, we are all mostly the same.
15:31 MrCurious suppose we could attempt to initiate a dcc chat with him, and obtain his ip, then know the machine he is terminal-connecting to dc irc server from
15:31 MrCurious assuming he is using a few hops to further obfuscate
15:33 MrCurious hell, might be using TOR, but that just BEGS the NSA to look at you, as that got compromised years ago
15:34 MrCurious and now i drop this thread, as it is a non problem, and as such does not require solving :)
15:36 Mahmoud dude. for fucks sake. /topic.
15:37 rue_house Mahmoud, how long you been here?
15:37 Mahmoud here == where?
15:37 rue_house this channel
15:37 Mahmoud dunno. not much.
15:37 rue_house ahh
15:37 rue_house MrCurious, has been here quite a while
15:38 Mahmoud so far what i see is that MrCurious's topic:offtopic ratio is tiny compared to what i hoped
15:38 rue_house what is the topic
15:38 rue_house Mechanical Electrical Programming and Psychology
15:39 rue_house ^^^^ see?
15:39 Mahmoud yep
15:39 henry344 anyone is willin' to help me?
15:39 Mahmoud rue_house: so you mean his nsa/tor stuff goes under psychology?
15:39 rue_house henry344, is it to do with a matrix equation not being used fr a real robot?
15:40 rue_house Mahmoud, sounds like a mix of programming and electronics
15:40 henry344 yup
15:40 henry344 not a real robot
15:40 henry344 need theory
15:40 rue_house henry344, I'm not good with the non-applicable stuff
15:41 henry344 ok, someone who knows, just write here
15:42 MrCurious henry344: something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denavit%E2%80%93Hartenberg_parameters
15:43 henry344 yes
15:43 henry344 but my question is specific
15:43 MrCurious are you john8888 from yesterday?
15:44 henry344 yes, but today i have more knowledge then yesterday
15:44 MrCurious excellent!
15:45 MrCurious robotustra: should be back in an hour or two, other than him GargantuaSauce has worked with this. those are the only two here i know who dabble in this publilcally
15:45 henry344 robotustra knows
15:45 henry344 he is the boss
15:45 MrCurious yes, he is very clever
15:46 MrCurious do we have a boss? a formal power heirchy.... slips off into monty python soliquie on power
15:47 MrCurious http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE 0:48
15:48 GuShH_Lap MrCurious: yey stainless! http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn4853f.jpg
15:49 MrCurious you made that?
15:49 GuShH_Lap sure
15:49 GuShH_Lap it's for the reprap
15:49 MrCurious applause
15:49 ShH_Lap s
15:49 GuShH_Lap no need to be sarcastic!
15:49 MrCurious no.. i cannot fabricate such...
15:49 MrCurious would love a second pic with an item for scale
15:50 GuShH_Lap M6
15:50 MrCurious looks to be about 2.5cm long?
15:50 MrCurious m6 outer threading?
15:50 GuShH_Lap 2.6 but I made it a bit longer
15:50 GuShH_Lap 3.2mm inner bore
15:50 MrCurious so you drilled a hole through a m6 bolt
15:50 GuShH_Lap nope
15:51 GuShH_Lap I didn't know bolts came with faced and chamfered ends too
15:51 MrCurious what did you do to it then
15:51 MrCurious was this the extruder hot end with the super duper small extrusion hole?
15:52 GuShH_Lap it is for that.
15:52 MrCurious gnurled bolt for pla feed?
15:52 GuShH_Lap hobbed, I've yet to make that.
15:52 MrCurious sorry, wrong term
15:52 GuShH_Lap you can knurl them
15:53 MrCurious hobbed is ribbed, knurled is cross hacthed?
15:53 GuShH_Lap but my knurling wheels are not meant for stainless ... not even the grade 8+ bolts I usually buy.
15:53 GuShH_Lap knurling can be straight too
15:53 GuShH_Lap or just diagonal
15:53 GuShH_Lap pushed or cut
15:53 MrCurious ok
15:53 GuShH_Lap it's just the term for the operation
15:54 MrCurious so the work piece you showed... you cut the threads onto it?
15:55 GuShH_Lap Not on this one, I don't have a stainless steel supplier... but I don't see why that's relevant, I've cut plenty threads before, these are cold rolled. There's no point in cutting them given the time it takes and the wear on the tools
15:56 GuShH_Lap for thread cutting, these are of course single point threads... but still, you need a center on them (hopefully live) and at least 4 passes for M6x1mm
15:56 GuShH_Lap that's a lot of wasted time in my book
15:56 MrCurious i am just trying to politely ask whad did you do to the work piece in the picture you showed me, as it wasnt clear
15:56 ShH_Lap sh
15:56 MrCurious damn my ignorance
15:56 GuShH_Lap I've been making the tiny parts for a reprap for a while now... I post a picture of each that's all
15:57 MrCurious oh!
15:57 GuShH_Lap not all of them need to be complex
15:57 MrCurious for next pic.... to help the stupid (like me) lay a blank next to a final piece so everyone can easily go OHHHHHHH
15:57 GuShH_Lap and sure... just go ahead buy it instead http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Plus-Barrel-M6-26-Nozzle-throat-For-Reprap-3D-Printer-Extruder-HotEnd-1-75mm-/221255111867?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3383d514bb
15:58 ShH_Lap eyer
15:58 MrCurious did you lathe the flat bit between thread sets?
15:58 GuShH_Lap oh that's for 1.75mm filament
15:58 GuShH_Lap yes with the parting blade
15:58 GuShH_Lap plunge cut
15:58 MrCurious now i see
15:58 MrCurious looks clean
15:58 GuShH_Lap let's talk about something more important...
15:59 MrCurious no obvious marks from the lathe clamp
15:59 MrCurious yes
15:59 GuShH_Lap it's stainless, so it's hard to mark it with medium to soft jaws
15:59 GuShH_Lap brass... very easy to mark it
15:59 MrCurious actually i have to go get ready and take wife to home depot... she has taken interest in making things, and i want to cultivate it
15:59 GuShH_Lap what type of things?
15:59 MrCurious isnt brass right up there with aluminum for fun to work with
16:00 MrCurious i have yet to see
16:00 GuShH_Lap more or less yes
16:00 GuShH_Lap you always get a nice finish with brass
16:00 MrCurious she wants wood, paints, stains
16:00 GuShH_Lap unless it's a crap brass alloy
16:00 MrCurious cost more than aluminum i think, and is significantly heavier
16:00 MrCurious bbl
16:00 GuShH_Lap see if you can find a martha stewart book in her kindle
16:00 GuShH_Lap it's half as thermally conductive... yet stainless is a tenth of aluminum!
16:01 GuShH_Lap not sure about density, I think brass and stainless are close
16:02 GuShH_Lap I've been challenged to make 100 of those parts, I don't think I would turn more than 10 on the engine lathe and I don't have a turret lathe, plus come to think of it I don't have to measure my dick on IRC anymore...
16:03 GuShH_Lap So I won't take any IRC challenges.
16:03 ShH_Lap shakes
16:13 MrCurious smart idea
16:15 Tom_itx too tiny to measure?
16:24 Curious imagines Paul Neuman playing a part in a comuter centric sci-fi movie.... "what we have here is a failure to enumer
17:55 GuShH_Lap http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Redon_smiling-spider.jpg
18:06 MrCurious ate at Panera bread today. "homestyle mushroom soup" does not refer to what it says... and ives a lingering question of just what town they are from, and in more detail, what planet or dimension....
18:06 MrCurious gives
18:06 MrCurious other than that it was good
18:55 MrCurious C appears to have evolved very little on unix in 20 years
18:55 MrCurious this is nice and sad at same time
18:56 MrCurious GuShH_Lap: you around?
18:57 MrCurious i have a 1/2" aluminum cylinder that is 2" long and i want a 8mm hole through its center. other than clamping it in an x-y table on my haand mill and drilling it out, got any tips for keeping it centered perfectly along the length?
18:58 MrCurious perhaps mark the center and punch a starter hole there?
18:59 MrCurious guessing a lalthe with a lalthe chuck and stationary drill bit would be the A1 tops way to do it
19:09 GuShH_Lap MrCurious: lathe is ideal... otherwise whatever you do drill twice (on both faces) and meet in the center, has worked for me in the past using just the drill press and two center punched holes :/
19:10 GuShH_Lap you have a mill with an xy table though, that's much better
19:10 GuShH_Lap find your center, mark it, center drill, then start drilling with your smallest bit
19:11 GuShH_Lap a DRO will make it even simpler to locate the center once you locate an edge
19:12 GuShH_Lap MrCurious: you can even start a pilot hole and then re-center the piece by leaving the bit inside the hole, chucking it so it's centered, then unchuck, etc. you are in 0,0, relative to the hole.
19:17 GuShH_Lap MrCurious: don't you have one of Tom_itx's magic friends?
19:17 MrCurious oh
19:17 MrCurious chuck it, then clamp it, then un chuck and add drill bit
19:17 MrCurious bril!
19:18 GuShH_Lap that only works if the chuck can hold the rod diameter
19:18 GuShH_Lap but I've done it, good enough. otherwise use your dial indicator?
19:23 MrCurious it holds diamater, just checked
19:23 MrCurious blanks are cheap. i can screw up a few times for under $5
19:26 GuShH_Lap :p
19:26 GuShH_Lap sounds like the best option
19:26 GuShH_Lap your runout will be that of the chuck itself
19:27 MrCurious worse case is wobbly wheels
19:27 GuShH_Lap I would center drill anyway to start
19:27 GuShH_Lap once located
20:13 MrCurious i think i failed to buy a center finder
20:13 MrCurious it seemed over priced to me
20:32 Tom_itx wobbler?
21:04 robotustra_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ7qz9j7UQE
21:09 MrCurious was success... it crashed?
21:09 MrCurious not sure the middle car is a pro choice for seating
21:10 MrCurious that angle grinder ate through the 8mm steel rod nicely
21:13 Tom_itx i assume that was on purpose
21:13 MrCurious oh yes
21:14 MrCurious where once there was one piece, now there are two (slightly un-equal) parts
21:15 MrCurious new rule. when you are a programmer and hit a 10 or 20 year milestone, you must spend a day getting old code working on new hardware.
21:15 Tom_itx or just toss it and move on
21:16 MrCurious its more a object/abject lesson in the legacy you leave behind for the poor $#%ks who follow you...
21:16 MrCurious for extra credit, revisit programs written in perl, or written using 1 char variable names :)
21:17 Tom_itx or variable length underscore names _ __ ___ ____
21:17 Tom_itx i actually got a lib that way once
21:18 MrCurious or anything with the taint of cobol, fortran, PL/1, or REX on it...
21:18 MrCurious oh leading trailing underscores of N length
21:18 robotustra_ it was crash test
21:18 MrCurious that are fine on fixed spacing font, but go to hell on modern fonts :D
21:18 Tom_itx robotustra, must have worked. it crashed
21:18 MrCurious success!
21:18 MrCurious but should repeat to be sure it crashed
21:19 GargantuaSauce i dont get why everyone rags on perl
21:20 GargantuaSauce my only close experience with that language is fixing a halfassed feature in slic3r for my own use and the code was perfectly clean and readable
21:20 GargantuaSauce code in (nearly) any language can be beautiful or a lovecraftian monstrosity
21:20 robotustra_ so guys, last day of the year? tomorrow
21:20 MrCurious in perl there are at least 4 or more ways to do any atomic operation
21:21 GargantuaSauce yeah i know, and there's like 120 different operators
21:21 robotustra_ is there any way to do nuclear operations in perl?
21:21 MrCurious perl is great for write only code, and code of 2 pages or less
21:21 MrCurious the same task can be done in perl so many different ways
21:21 robotustra_ or quark operations?
21:21 Jak_o_Shadows This is the last day of the year
21:21 Jak_o_Shadows Get on the right side of the world
21:22 robotustra_ HA HA HA
21:22 MrCurious so perl coders working on same code, but with diff exp levels will fight by modifying code between 2 ways of doing something each resulting in same result
21:22 robotustra_ I finally started to code robot
21:22 GargantuaSauce well discipline is required to prevent that obviously
21:22 MrCurious oh! yeah.... at exactly midnight GMT, everyone face north, and take 3 quick steps to the left....
21:22 GargantuaSauce same with any other project though...
21:22 robotustra_ and died at 200 line of code
21:23 MrCurious see if we can get this merry go round spinning faster or slower
21:23 robotustra_ tomorrow I'll continue
21:23 GargantuaSauce most of the code i've seen that i've found truly disgusting has been java
21:23 GargantuaSauce or php
21:23 MrCurious i have seen some filthy c++
21:23 GargantuaSauce that too
21:23 robotustra_ yeah strongly typed languages are for begginers
21:23 Duzz C with bad gotos
21:24 MrCurious and damn near any C/c++ written by an engineer who read a book on C once....
21:24 robotustra_ it's like helper wheels on baby bike
21:24 Curious d
21:24 GargantuaSauce oh yes i forgot engineer-c
21:24 robotustra_ I don't use gotos in C
21:24 MrCurious strongly typed languages rock
21:24 robotustra_ only in asm
21:24 Duzz lol i write in engineer-c damn you
21:24 MrCurious just try playing python with a team of 50
21:24 robotustra_ HA HA HA
21:24 MrCurious and wait for the first noob to return a string instead of int
21:25 robotustra_ I open you a sacred knowledge - AI will not be written in C
21:25 MrCurious the phrase that i hear most at work that makes me postal is "works for me"
21:25 robotustra_ nor C++ or even Java
21:25 MrCurious yes, ,because you have un-shared changes you dolt!
21:25 Duzz at least 90% of what I do in C is just modifying registers so its hard to make it too bad
21:25 robotustra_ nor losp or prolog
21:26 robotustra_ this language is not invented yet
21:26 MrCurious i heard rumor that when AI is created it will talk with a LISP)))))))))))))
21:26 MrCurious Lots of Insepidly Stupid Parenthesis
21:27 robotustra_ the problem that all languages are sequential
21:27 GargantuaSauce no they aren't
21:27 Duzz not all
21:27 GargantuaSauce you just mentioned prolog
21:27 robotustra_ even natural languages
21:27 MrCurious perhaps erlang or go might be more to your liking
21:27 robotustra_ I can prove it to you
21:28 robotustra_ you fuck off reason I tell you why
21:28 Duzz how far do you define programming? I do lots of VHDL
21:28 robotustra_ translate please
21:28 MrCurious i think he wants you to sex someone because he wants to tell you something
21:28 robotustra_ :)
21:28 robotustra_ close
21:28 MrCurious oh not translate you...
21:29 robotustra_ I disturbed the sequence and fucked up the meaning of the sentance
21:29 MrCurious erlang is async multi threaded for ack of a better word
21:29 robotustra_ it prooves that languages a sequential
21:29 MrCurious then there are those defered execution languages
21:30 MrCurious as sequential as a moth eating through a ball of yarn
21:30 robotustra_ try to mix words in erlang procedures and you'll fuck up the program
21:30 MrCurious didnt reccoment erlang, just put it forward as a async language
21:30 GargantuaSauce so you're saying a language without grammar is necessary?
21:30 robotustra_ if any of your neuron die because of overdose of beer - you'll not getting stupid immideately
21:31 MrCurious a pictogram based language.... sounds chinese to me
21:31 robotustra_ no, but the grammer should not be sequential
21:31 MrCurious would need thousands or chaacters
21:31 robotustra_ it means that the program should behave like water flow
21:31 GargantuaSauce conway's game of life is turing complete
21:32 robotustra_ I told you a lot already
21:32 MrCurious i imagine the constructs in our brains are specialized for the given tasks they perform, yet are made of the same neuron material. perhaps the answer lies not in one language, but rather a synthesis of many anguages and a conductor that routs tasks to the most suitable prossessing mechanism
21:32 robotustra_ now I have to pray to implement all my ideas during the rest of my life
21:32 MrCurious like water flow? it should piss itself.... lots of programs do that
21:33 robotustra_ piss your cnc first?
21:33 robotustra_ robots pissing on cncn machines
21:33 robotustra_ with oil
21:34 MrCurious its just irc... it isnt real.... enhance your calm citizen :)
21:34 robotustra_ or with a cooling liquid
21:34 robotustra_ :)
21:34 robotustra_ if I would be american I would say : relax brow, it was a joke
21:34 robotustra_ but I'm russian, you know...
21:35 GargantuaSauce i don't think many americans say that
21:35 robotustra_ or byelorusian, same shit
21:35 MrCurious dood!
21:35 MrCurious dood?
21:35 MrCurious dood......
21:35 robotustra_ or "I
21:35 robotustra_ m so sorry"
21:36 robotustra_ may be it's not so polite
21:36 robotustra_ may be I'm rude
21:36 robotustra_ I don't know
21:37 MrCurious its important to have rude friends... they are the ones whose opinions yo uknow you can trust
21:37 MrCurious the ones who remind you the top of your head shines and aquires yellow-wax-buildup
21:37 MrCurious the friends that ask if those ear-muffs are natural or store bought...
21:38 robotustra_ what did you write? I'll spend half an hour translating that
21:38 MrCurious your bald
21:38 MrCurious your ears are not bald
21:38 robotustra_ I'm not
21:39 MrCurious brutal honest friends are best
21:39 robotustra_ ok
21:39 robotustra_ let's hop
21:39 robotustra_ hope on that
21:40 robotustra_ anyway I want to have something artificially alive in my house by the end of 2014
21:40 MrCurious dr who xmas episode had a "honesty field" wonder if the earth was placed in such a field if we would survive or not.
21:40 MrCurious could always cheat and just use XNA or XDNA
21:41 robotustra_ at least a head on the shelf
21:41 robotustra_ and wheels
21:41 MrCurious you want to create life? live alone, and at 3 months into it, padlock the refriderator closed, and wait 5 years
21:41 MrCurious ok, maybe 10 years
21:41 robotustra_ artificial life
21:41 robotustra_ AI
21:42 robotustra_ at least with intelligence of mice
21:42 MrCurious AI ?= AL
21:42 robotustra_ or dog
21:42 robotustra_ or 2 years old child
21:42 MrCurious would a reprap on wheels with robotic arms meet your definition of artificial lilfe
21:42 robotustra_ no
21:42 robotustra_ it has no memory
21:42 MrCurious but it can reproduce itself
21:43 MrCurious and print mechanical memory
21:43 robotustra_ reprap can't do 2+2
21:43 MrCurious wait. i am going to step away from this tangent, its too far out even for me
21:43 robotustra_ of learn
21:43 robotustra_ wrom environment
21:44 robotustra_ from
21:44 robotustra_ I have 2 robot's eyes
21:44 MrCurious I C
21:44 robotustra_ it's a lot for self learning
21:44 robotustra_ in a week I'll get e vestibular apparatus
21:45 robotustra_ and I have 2 old PCs
21:45 robotustra_ x64 and x32
21:45 robotustra_ amd
21:45 robotustra_ 2.+ GHz
21:46 robotustra_ will do machine vision with fragments of visual cortex
21:46 robotustra_ if it will work - will do the neck + 1 shoulder + 1 arm
21:46 robotustra_ then 2nd arm
21:46 robotustra_ chest
21:47 robotustra_ bottom
21:47 robotustra_ legs
21:47 robotustra_ this year it to program the head
21:48 robotustra_ usually people start to do robots from arm
21:48 robotustra_ it's a huge mistake
21:49 robotustra_ usually they finish with the hand
21:49 robotustra_ instead of brain they do some shit
21:49 robotustra_ in the latest 5 minutes
21:50 robotustra_ they prefare to multiply matrices instead of inventing selfleerning algorythms
21:50 robotustra_ it's a pity
21:51 GargantuaSauce well ah....good luck with that
21:52 robotustra_ yeah, everyone say like this
21:52 robotustra_ everyone wash their hands
21:52 MrCurious its not a club.... its a race, a competition, first one to enslave the world wins...???
21:52 GargantuaSauce i look forward to your demonstration of a revolutionary implementation
21:52 robotustra_ you are wrong
21:52 robotustra_ 1 min
21:55 robotustra_ linus torvalds could not make linux alone
21:55 MrCurious rome was not built in a day!
21:55 robotustra_ the same thing could be applied for ai
21:55 MrCurious only nixon could go to china...
21:55 robotustra_ one person could coordinate
21:56 robotustra_ govern the procoss of creation
21:56 GargantuaSauce the construction of an operating system was pretty well understood at the time
21:57 robotustra_ bit the problem with collaboration that 1 person + 1 person = 1.6 efficient persons
21:57 GargantuaSauce there were dozens of examples of prior art
21:57 robotustra_ yes
21:57 robotustra_ this is the problem
21:57 robotustra_ only I understand how to do it
21:57 GargantuaSauce lol
21:57 robotustra_ laugh
21:57 GargantuaSauce yes i am thank you
21:57 MrCurious perhaps the goal should not be one personality, but a legion
21:58 MrCurious make it suffer from multiple personality disorder
21:58 MrCurious then there should always be a personality for every situation
21:58 robotustra_ for me just to explain how AI works it will take me like 2 weeks
21:58 GargantuaSauce start writing
21:59 robotustra_ and just to write a code it's about 1 year
21:59 GargantuaSauce i will give serious consideration to an overview document you produce
21:59 MrCurious and not in russian... i want to be able to read your treatse on AI
21:59 robotustra_ of every day at least 1-2 hours
22:00 robotustra_ sorry, half of ideas are written in russain already
22:00 robotustra_ but AI will translate it after
22:00 MrCurious maybe the AI can teach me russian
22:01 robotustra_ I'm not sure yt if AI will speak russian
22:01 robotustra_ may be
22:02 robotustra_ but I'll first implement english
22:04 robotustra_ it's 2-3 times more simple to implement english than russian
22:16 robotustra_ GargantuaSauce: do you have your own ideas?
22:17 GargantuaSauce of course
22:17 GargantuaSauce i don't think they're unique or revolutionary though
22:17 robotustra_ If I have 1 idea and you have 1 idea, we can exchange
22:18 robotustra_ mine are different slightly form main stream
22:18 robotustra_ and every of us will have 2 ideas
22:19 robotustra_ what is your approach?
22:22 GargantuaSauce it is kinda hard to summarize in a couple of sentences
22:24 robotustra_ the same
22:26 robotustra_ but I'm a professor and I can explain simple idea in couple of words
22:27 robotustra_ but you'll not understand the meaning
22:27 robotustra_ right now
22:27 robotustra_ only in a years of thinking
22:27 GargantuaSauce then it's not really an explanation is it
22:28 robotustra_ the main approach I use: "thinking withing language"
22:29 Duzz are you using any of the normal machine learning schemes?
22:29 robotustra_ what is "normal machine learning schemes" please define
22:30 robotustra_ and what is ubnormal learning?
22:31 robotustra_ I want to inmplement selflearning
22:31 robotustra_ of cause it's not "normal" learning according to modern approach
22:31 Duzz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning#Approaches
22:31 Duzz is what i mean by normal
22:32 robotustra_ none of them
22:33 robotustra_ none of them gave AI yet
22:33 robotustra_ it means something was done incorrectly
22:33 Duzz machine learning is only one part of an AI
22:33 robotustra_ yes
22:33 robotustra_ and the last part
22:33 robotustra_ first you have to create self learning algoruthm
22:34 robotustra_ or mechanism
22:35 robotustra_ I'll use some algorythms like GA, etc for local tasks
22:35 robotustra_ but all these math is not needed for creation of self learning
22:36 robotustra_ it's just lean away from real result
22:36 robotustra_ it was just earning of money for clever people
22:36 robotustra_ imagine - they invented AI?
22:36 robotustra_ what's next?
22:36 robotustra_ it means, they a fired the next day
22:37 Duzz potentially
22:37 robotustra_ all that long 50 years they just earned money
22:37 robotustra_ no more
22:37 robotustra_ nobody hit the target
22:38 robotustra_ because they had no reason to hit it
22:38 robotustra_ I can hit the target because I don't get any money for this
22:38 Jak_o_Shadows What's a good source of stranded copper wire?
22:38 robotustra_ only satisfaction
22:39 robotustra_ Reno Depot
22:39 robotustra_ home depot
22:41 Duzz Digikey should have some fairly cheap stuff
22:41 Duzz ships fast too depending on where you are
22:41 robotustra_ Jak_o_Shadows
22:41 robotustra_ what cross section?
22:42 robotustra_ http://www.renodepot.com/en/bare-copper-wire-8179005
22:43 Jak_o_Shadows Reasonably thin. Just connecting some ultasonic sensors to a uC, but the wire will move
22:44 robotustra_ I had the same ptoblem
22:44 robotustra_ I disassembled USB wire
22:45 robotustra_ and did a twisted pair
22:45 robotustra_ and put it inside rubber tube
22:45 robotustra_ it's very flexible and strong
22:47 Jak_o_Shadows tempted to look at phone cord.
22:48 robotustra_ probably it's good
22:52 GargantuaSauce i just ordered an asston of .1" connector housings
22:52 GargantuaSauce think some of those and a ribbon cable would serve you well
22:54 GargantuaSauce http://www.ebay.ca/itm/170879496065 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/170893664219 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/171027881278
22:55 GargantuaSauce not a great price on ribbon cable from those guys, maybe get it elsewhere
22:56 Duzz http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HF365%2F04SF/MD04R-5-ND/2416321 a bit cheaper
22:57 Duzz ah nvm ignore that its only a 4 cond one
22:57 GargantuaSauce that is actually coniderably more expensive
22:57 GargantuaSauce yeah
22:57 GargantuaSauce i got the 32-wire rainbow stuff
22:59 robotustra_ Duzz: my approach: I try to merry natural languages + prolog + symblic calculations
22:59 Jak_o_Shadows I oughta get some of those dupont connectors
22:59 Duzz cool
22:59 GargantuaSauce you'll need a crimper too of course
23:00 GargantuaSauce i assure you doing it with pliers is a huge pain in the ass
23:00 Duzz I get to use tons of samtec teflon wires and connectors for work
23:00 robotustra_ I'm lucky because I have any kind of crimpers at work
23:02 robotustra_ in production
23:08 Jak_o_Shadows I have http://76.my/Malaysia/multi-wire-terminal-crimper-cutter-stripper-pliers-88996-1009-16-aaronngu77@1.jpg, but not with the teeth bit at the end. The teeth bit are instead pretty well rounded
23:08 Jak_o_Shadows Would that work?
23:08 robotustra_ does samtec has locks?
23:08 Duzz locks?
23:08 Jak_o_Shadows http://image.dhgate.com/albu_212148873_00-1.0x0/8-crimping-tool-0-65-6-0mm-wire-stripper.jpg is probably a better picture
23:09 robotustra_ I think too thick
23:16 Jak_o_Shadows also, derp, old telephone cable only has 2 wires
23:17 Duzz should have to twisted pair shouldnt it?
23:17 Duzz so 4 no?
23:18 Jak_o_Shadows Not the cable I chose to cut up
23:18 Duzz darn
23:32 Duzz I think my project for 2014 is going to be balancing a quadcopter using only hardware no software
23:32 zap0 why?
23:33 Duzz it was that or a stuart platform and things that fly are more fun
23:33 Duzz plus i love vhdl
23:48 GargantuaSauce i would argue that coding an fpga counts as software
23:49 GargantuaSauce all-hardware is an option it just involves lots of op-amps :)
23:49 Duzz I would agree, like to call myself a firmware engineer a bit more than a software one though ;)
23:50 GargantuaSauce your bits are of high viscosity