#robotics Logs
Oct 09 2013
#robotics Calendar
07:40 GuShH That's it, the stretchy eyed folk and I do not understand each other. One would think gears 30 and 30 on A and B plus position 3 on the gearbox would mean a threading pitch of 19 (tpi) ... well it's more like 22, what the hell china? I either have to flip the double gear (haven't contemplated it yet and if so, they failed to mention it) or the plate does not correspond to this model
07:40 GuShH too bad the full geared model costs twice as much, I would've got that instead... next time I'll get a used lathe from the czech republic, swiss or some shit.
07:41 GuShH and to make matters worse since it's a metric leadscrew and I want to thread inches, I have to leave the threading halfnut engaged and cut the threads old school, which is OK since it's not something I do every day, but when the gears are set and the results are not as expected, something has to be wrong
07:42 GuShH now for some reason I got two threading dial gears, I haven't compared them but I wonder if there's any difference or if they screwed up, why would they hand you an extra when it's something you rarely use (and it's not left engaged when you aren't threading anyway)
07:43 GuShH bah next time I'll get some nylon or delrin to fool around with the setup, or just plain stop and gage the first pass instead of going for it
07:46 Tom_garage consult the chinese manual
08:57 GuShH yey, stripped the toolpost swivel nuts... fuck you china.
08:57 GuShH mild steel, "tempered" (or rather, got hot enough to get a black oxide coating on)
08:57 GuShH size is out of proportion with regard to the toolpost, it's two sizes too small
08:57 ShH heads to the hardware store hoping they stock square
08:58 rue_house hmm
08:58 GuShH rue_house: the toolpost kept swinging back and forth, so I kept tightening those two nuts because that's the main weak point, until they stripped ... and I wasn't torquing that much, it's a tiny 10mm wrench (or 12)
08:59 GuShH can't wait to figure out a way to get rid of this china shit and get a real lathe (used, but in good condition -- hard to find one with all the parts though)
08:59 GuShH one (1) operation and I'm already replacing parts on it
08:59 rue_house they just nuts?
08:59 rue_house or they threaded in/
08:59 GuShH square nuts
09:00 rue_house you dont need the toolpost to make those
09:00 GuShH eh? what are you talking about
09:00 rue_house to make square nuts
09:00 GuShH the ones that stripped are the ones that came in the lathe
09:00 GuShH I'm not making them
09:00 GuShH I'll head to the big hardware store to get the next best thing.
09:00 rue_house yea, you need to make new ones now
09:00 GuShH I don't have a mill so don't suggest it
09:01 rue_house you cant get the od of the square to withint .0005" of what its supposed to be?
09:01 GuShH rue_house: they're made out of cheap mild steel, maybe even rebar.
09:01 rue_house mmm
09:01 GuShH but it looks dull grey on the stripped portion, maybe even iron haven't done a spark test, don't care
09:01 GuShH this is china... it's not my fault I'm used to real tools
09:02 GuShH rue_house: I know a place that carries just about any bolt you can imagine, and if they don't have it they'll make it
09:02 rue_house I used grade 3 bots on the boiler firebox access cover, after all the heating, cooling and carbon, they must have been over grade 8 by the time I had to drill them out
09:02 rue_house the bed on my lathe is pretty soft, already put a ding in it
09:03 GuShH I was doing 0.5mm passes on mild steel, making a part for a job... after a few passes and one threading operation the toolpost began to rock back and forth (I could feel it, hard to see it) they were the bolts.
09:03 GuShH rue_house: turns out they're toys, even the big china lathes are toys
09:03 GuShH like I said, right now I'll make due with what I've got... but I'm already looking at used lathes again
09:03 GuShH I've been around old iron and you just can't strip a bolt with a tiny wrench like that on those, they're beasts by comparison
09:04 GuShH and everything was over engineered on purpose
09:04 rue_house aside from '' .001" = .025mm '' I'v not had any issues with mine
09:04 GuShH you need stiffness, otherwise what's the point
09:04 GuShH it's not like I was trying to shave 3mm or more on each pass
09:04 rue_house (the .025mm was the truth)
09:04 GuShH belt would slip or it would just stall I presume, so this is insane wear for not even an hour of use
09:05 GuShH another shocker is the bed is plain iron, heat treated or not (they claim induction treated) there's no teflon coat or anything on the ways
09:05 GuShH and it's a thin casting, not solid whatsoever
09:05 GuShH of course a big old used lathe cannot be moved by a single person or two...
09:06 GuShH my biggest issue with used lathes is a) lack of parts (missing) b) massive wear on the ways, bed in general and other parts
09:07 GuShH so it means having to visit every seller, inspect the lathe, hopefully they'll let you turn something on it (most likely not) and then repeat until you give up or you found the one.
09:08 GuShH you can see why it was tempting to send an email and have it delivered a couple days later on my door, new and for less money
09:08 GuShH on/to
09:08 ShH can't be arsed with toys any
09:10 rue_house or make your own lathe, if you are really diligent you can cast iron
09:10 GuShH rue_house: it turns out I had to flip the double gears to get into the inch side of things... so this was a complete waste of time, and I had the angle slightly off as well (rushing) http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn4192f.jpg you can see the chatter marks on the rough pass, that's scrap mild steel
09:11 GuShH rue_house: no sir I cannot do that, or maybe in a few years I'll be diligent enough, but perhaps the grass is too sharp for such a project
09:11 GuShH so instead of 19tpi I got somewhere in between 21 and 22tpi, because the ratio was off by 7 teeth or so
09:11 rue_house eeek
09:11 rue_house how much was your lathe? mine seems so much better?
09:12 GuShH rue_house: so, chatter was caused by those shitty nuts on the toolpost
09:12 GuShH I kept tightening until they went
09:12 rue_house mine is a king, otherwise known as a grizley
09:12 GuShH they all come from the same factory
09:12 GuShH I bet mine has the same bed as yours, unless yours is shorter
09:12 rue_house oh yea, we were musing over the spec sheets weren't we
09:12 rue_house and the useless wood handled screwdrivers
09:12 GuShH anyway mild steel doesn't turn very well on medium speeds with carbide specially... but it's good enough for what I need
09:13 GuShH and the fakey specs sheet / inspection sheet
09:13 rue_house actaully, I have another issue with mine
09:13 rue_house I forgot
09:13 rue_house the tailstock
09:13 ShH s
09:13 rue_house alignment seems to varry
09:13 GuShH mine has no thrust bearing on the tailstock "handle"
09:13 rue_house quite a bit
09:14 GuShH not even a real bushing for what it's worth
09:14 rue_house like +- 2 thou
09:14 GuShH I haven't bothered to align the tailstock yet, not turning between centers for these short parts although a dead or live center would help on the other end
09:15 rue_house which usually isn't an issue, but doing sensitive ID holes is trickey
09:15 GuShH just means having to center drill, remove the chuck, etc
09:15 rue_house oh, and not tapering the jobs
09:15 rue_house mine came way out
09:15 GuShH right
09:15 GuShH so I'll get high grade bolts one size bigger and grind the sides down...
09:15 GuShH for now it should do
09:15 rue_house I wa making a 4.6mm shaft the other day, every time I moved the tailstock the cut had to be recalibrated
09:16 GuShH the holes can accomodate at least one size bigger, by eye
09:16 GuShH does yours say "precision" on the plate
09:16 GuShH makes me want to murder chinese people every time I read that
09:16 rue_house I stopped adjusting it and used the lock to 'move' the tailstock into alignment, different pressure = different position
09:16 GuShH that is a problem
09:16 rue_house over 3" I got to within 1thou of parallel
09:17 GuShH oh crap this place closes at 12 and it's 11 already
09:17 GuShH they open at 14 afterwards
09:17 GuShH that's one lenghty lunch
09:17 rue_house GET ON YOUR BIKE AND RIDE!
09:17 rue_house ;)
09:17 GuShH who said I have a road legal motorcyle ?
09:17 GuShH I don't.
09:17 rue_house its from a song, get out more...
09:18 GuShH and if I hopped on my brother's rm125 I'd get busted.
09:18 GuShH rue_house: which song?
09:19 rue_house GuShH, do you have a dial indicator?
09:19 GuShH yes
09:19 GuShH but the magnetic stand is crappier than the indicator
09:19 rue_house when I got my lathe, the chuck wasn't centered on the backplate
09:19 GuShH I need to start trusting used stuff more and look into that
09:19 GuShH I've indicated it, it wasn't too bad but I'll do it again later to get you the numbers
09:19 rue_house it was about 4thou out, I noticed when I turned some ground rod
09:20 GuShH right now I can't use it without a toolpost
09:20 rue_house sissy :)
09:20 GuShH well the entire compound rest is gone
09:20 GuShH those two nuts hold it all onto the cross slide
09:21 GuShH I could bolt a chunk of pipe on the cross slide and call it an expensive wood lathe.
09:21 rue_house there ya go!
09:21 ShH s
09:21 GuShH I already have a wood lathe, no thanks
09:22 GuShH I'm glad I didn't get the bigger chinese lathe
09:22 rue_house did the place you bought yours have any good parting tool holders?
09:22 GuShH the one with the clutch
09:22 GuShH and cross slide power feed
09:22 GuShH because I would've spent twice as much on twice as much crap.
09:22 GuShH I have a place for tooling and holders
09:22 GuShH but I've yet to buy the holder, I got an hss blade which I haven't even ground yet
09:23 rue_house I bet the manuf was pushed to make the lathe uuuber cheap so the reseller in the usa could get his markup really high
09:23 GuShH (as-is you pretty much have negative rake, which is impossible to use on these little machines)
09:23 GuShH needs a relief and positive rake
09:24 GuShH no kidding, plus mine came with the fan cover on the motor all bent up (motor wouldn't turn)
09:24 GuShH that same thing happened with my bench press
09:24 GuShH instead of taking it back I fixed both, since I'm ok with sheet metal
09:24 GuShH think I posted some pics
09:25 GuShH originally it looked like someone had painted it with a brush made out of dry grass and used old paint.
09:25 rue_house prolly had
09:25 GuShH anyway bbl... let's see if I can source something usable for nuts and bolts
09:28 GuShH rue_house: ok found the pics http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn3713f.jpg it was actually worse when I first got it, but I had bent it back a bit so it would clear the blade (and thus I could test the motor)
09:29 GuShH fixed with home-made tooling http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn3716f.jpg -> sanded and primed http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn3721f.jpg -> quick coat of high temp black gloss http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn3722f.jpg (two wet coats, nothing fancy) I didn't care to do it properly it's not seen but it was bothering me
09:29 rue_house any evidence the crate had been opened?
09:29 GuShH yes it had been
09:30 GuShH and I was missing the two wrenches it should come with in the toolbox
09:30 rue_house ah, thats prolly a store fix then
09:30 GuShH seller didn't give 7 flying dicks when I complained
09:30 rue_house hell no, he prolly did it
09:30 GuShH I had them open it, or rather I told them it better not be missing parts
09:30 GuShH it's a big store
09:30 GuShH I could walk in and set it on fire one day... but I'm not that crazy yet
09:30 GuShH maybe if I teamed up with flyback
09:31 GuShH rue_house: I got screwed, I might screw someone else with it... that's life.
09:32 rue_house I think these lathes are just a start, you have to work them into what you want
09:33 GuShH rue_house: so melt it all to begin with
09:34 GuShH it might be a start but it's not a good start
09:34 GuShH I know what's wrong and how some of those issues could be handled, but someone who never used a lathe and has no clue about it all, this is not a good start
09:34 GuShH it's a way to push them off
09:34 GuShH like I said, I keep expecting more but I forget it's china.
09:35 ShH walks
09:39 rue_house good stuff is made there too, but its not cheap
11:56 GuShH rue_house: my lathe wasn't exactly cheap either if you were to compare it to canada or the us... I paid twice as much -- I think you too would be annoyed at the fact that it's a piece of shit for the price.
11:57 GuShH anyway shop was closed, didn't want to wait 2 hours ... I don't think they make an icecream big enough for me to spend 2 hours on it
11:57 GuShH can't belive I haven't got any bolts of this size, they're either too small or too big - nothing in between.
12:02 GuShH at least I got the 19tpi now that I flipped the big double gears, can't do metric and inch without doing that.
13:00 GuShH found a couple bolts, not big enough but I rued it for now
13:00 GuShH little less chatter
13:25 GuShH oh neat, a new youtube cock fight
13:26 GuShH a guy trying to school me on what type of bearings headstocks on metal and high quality wood lathes use... he doesn't own either, I own both.. yet he thinks he knows better, seems to be one of those wiki fags
16:59 GuShH rue_house: got the bolts.. grade 8, and a set one size up too, they do fit (I was right!) but I need to machine the faces a little bit
16:59 GuShH no milling machine but... bench grinder should do
16:59 ShH s
16:59 GuShH well it's not that simple to mill hard stuff anyway
17:00 GuShH the original crap was the lowest grade mild steel you can get, pretty much rebar
17:00 GuShH strips with barely any force
17:00 GuShH hopefully the grade 8 will bite and provide the rigidity required
17:00 GuShH and one size bigger is always better.
17:01 ShH is going to supersize everything he can on this lathe for the time b
17:19 ShH wonders why this place is called "everything rubber" when they don't stock anything made out of sili
17:19 GuShH last time I checked silicone was considered a type of rubber?
17:19 GuShH mostly stocked butyl crap
18:31 GuShH k... rued it again, milled the faces of the bolts with the drill press and the vise, no xy nonsense for this boy... freehand, lots of chatter marks but who cares, worked fine for a one-off until I get a mill.
18:32 GuShH the compound is a lot stiffer now with the bigger, grade 8 bolts and nuts, plus bezel washers.
18:33 orlok grade 8?
18:33 orlok not M8, but the steel or what?
18:33 GuShH yes why
18:33 GuShH the hardness
18:33 GuShH 8.8
18:33 GuShH I couldn't get any better
18:35 GuShH orlok: instead of low carbon steel they're medium carbon alloy, what it originally came with would've been grade 2 if at all.
18:36 orlok hard to grind down?
18:36 GuShH then again some charts say 8.8 is not a carbon alloy and 10.9 or better are... not all charts agree on this, I wanted 12.9 but nobody carries them
18:36 GuShH used a tiny endmill with the drill press at it's maximum speed, took a few light passes but it's not that hard.
18:37 GuShH by comparison the original bolts cut like butter
18:37 useless-afk harder than the steel drill bits
18:37 lok needs to finish putting up shel
18:38 GuShH orlok: I should do that... I have shelves, like hardware store type... but not on the walls
18:38 useless-afk bolt grades : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_manufacturing_process#Inch
18:38 GuShH problem is I have so much crap like car products, lubes, etc... there's hardly any space left
18:38 GuShH I think useless-afk still has me on ignore
18:39 orlok i bought 3 sets of metal framed shelving sets from Aldi a few months ago, and put them up so theres a 1210mm gap between them, and they are spread out across the back wall of the garage
18:39 GuShH that's the lousiest description of bolt grades I've ever seen
18:39 GuShH in fact that's just pure crap
18:39 GuShH the machinist handbook has all the charts you need
18:39 eless-afk has finished chopping a tree stump out, so her paws can recover, to go backt o putting up shelves
18:39 GuShH orlok: at the previous house I had a basement and every wall was lined with shelving
18:40 GuShH it was awesome
18:40 orlok and the local big hardware shed has these metal supports, meant for use with a heavy duty modular shelving system.. they span the gap between the assembled shelves nicely
18:40 GuShH I took the shelves out since you can take them apart, but I don't have space for them anymore.. only assembled a couple
18:40 orlok so i can bridge the gap between the shelves with more shelves!
18:41 GuShH ok I think the right term is a shelf rack?
18:41 GuShH no wheels, but four steel columns and each shelf bolted to them
18:41 GuShH surprisingly sturdy stuff
18:41 GuShH unlike the aluminum ones
18:42 orlok http://www.bunnings.com.au/shelving-beam-rack-it-1200mm-sgl-blk-864_p2760378
18:42 GuShH I should really prime and paint them
18:42 GuShH they took a beating when I moved, left most of the parts outside
18:42 GuShH now they're indoors, but some have rusted
18:42 GuShH surface rust
18:43 GuShH orlok: what should I do with a couple old computer racks?
18:43 GuShH I think I have two... tall ones, don't ask me how many units they were left behind by someone who used to rent this place heh
18:43 useless-afk loks like heavy duty shelves
18:43 MrShelf useless-afk: hi
18:44 MrShelf oh.. proper ignore
18:44 useless-afk holycows, 750kg capacity, yeas, that's heavy duty,. it's 1,650 pounds
18:44 MrShelf orlok: 750KG!
18:44 MrShelf can your walls handle it?
18:44 orlok useless-afk: yeah, components for them.. i was going to kludge up some metal brackets to do the same job, but those are stronger and cheaper
18:44 GuShH we could stack rue's lathe and mine on one of your shelves
18:45 GuShH of course farts will escape during the laborious process
18:45 orlok They are spanning the gaps between some cheaper shelving untis that only hold 200kg per shelf
18:45 eless-afk
18:45 GuShH "only"
18:45 orlok i'm only storing plastic tubs full of crap on them
18:45 GuShH eating disorder?
18:45 ShH chuc
18:46 useless-afk i often pick up bedframes that people scrap, to use for such things as shelf supports
18:46 GuShH yey... got my lathe all operational once again
18:46 GuShH I scrapped a steel bed frame
18:46 useless-afk growing mushrooms?
18:46 GuShH to make a garden "cart"
18:46 orlok i was looking at using some metal bedframes, but they bent
18:46 GuShH but I gave up on that project, couldn't source proper wheels for it
18:46 GuShH recently I began chopping parts off for other projects
18:47 GuShH the sides on this one were 2 inch angle iron
18:47 orlok GuShH: free standing 4 post racks?
18:47 GuShH L profile
18:47 GuShH two post
18:47 GuShH one with keyboard tray
18:47 orlok sliding tray?
18:47 GuShH must've been for patch work, there's an ancient rj45 patch panel or two
18:47 useless-afk bent? hmm, bedframe steel here is stronger than the stuff they classify as structural steel
18:47 GuShH no, tilts up and locks
18:47 GuShH silly thing
18:47 GuShH steel bedframes everywhere I know are made out of... regular mild steel
18:48 orlok i have a few slide out trays/shelves
18:48 GuShH whether it's heat treated or not that I do not know.
18:48 orlok i used some right angle brackets to bolt it to the bottom of one of my small desks
18:48 GuShH cool thing about some of the modern steel bed frames is they don't take up space and you get a lot of storage underneath
18:48 GuShH then again if I wanted one I would make it myself, to my own overkill ocd specs.
18:49 orlok we just bought a new bed when i was made redundant
18:49 GuShH but first, I need to finish the lathe stand doors and shelves.
18:49 orlok over $2500, and it was 50% off
18:49 GuShH just the frame?
18:49 GuShH and yes I could make one for a fraction of the cost, and it would be fun... and silly sex proof, and I could boast "I made this"
18:49 orlok no frame, king size
18:49 GuShH just the matresses
18:49 orlok base is two king singles
18:50 GuShH there's a name for those...
18:50 GuShH I'm not much of a bed guy
18:50 orlok base + mattress, rather than frame + mattress
18:50 GuShH orlok: but those two have solid wooden frames underneath surely
18:50 GuShH yes, there's a name
18:50 GuShH I just don't know it in english ...
18:50 GuShH or maybe I do
18:50 orlok the bases are pretty sturdy
18:51 orlok i mean, theres a solid wooden frame inside them
18:51 GuShH yeap
18:51 GuShH my only issue with those is you don't get any storage underneath
18:51 GuShH just barely if you install the feet
18:51 GuShH usually silly wood turned feet.
18:51 orlok yup, enough to slide a laptop under there
18:52 eless-afk wishes orlok best luck at becoming un-redun
18:52 GuShH I don't know what the benefits are over a solid frame, I've compared them at the store and I couldn't tell, but maybe I should've stayed overnight!
18:54 GuShH Hrmmm if one didn't care about a drill press quill and bearings, I think you could do some minor milling on one.. specially alu, nothing precise though
18:54 GuShH oh and the chuck, you would ruin it
18:54 GuShH but chinese thucks are already ruined right out of the box
18:54 GuShH chucks*
18:55 orlok useless-afk: employed at a new startup, same boss i had about 10 years ago
18:55 GuShH cue "start me up"
18:56 useless-afk oh right, i forgot
18:57 orlok interesting, different work
18:57 orlok but he has faith in me that he can point me at any weird random task and i'll do what i can
18:57 orlok so now i'm getting into drupal based workflow automation
18:57 eless-afk watches the words g
18:57 GuShH that's nice
18:58 GuShH orlok: and to think useless-afk ignored me... when she's the real arse.
18:58 GuShH orlok: it's hard to find a boss like that
18:58 GuShH or just partner in general
18:59 GuShH not a lot of trust left in this world
18:59 orlok yeah, i quit due to overwork/overstress last time
18:59 orlok i was managing hundreds of linux servers around the country by my self, including 24/7 tech support
18:59 GuShH jeez
19:00 useless-afk nice line item on a resume tho
19:00 orlok yeah
19:00 orlok hmm, so.. other guys last day today
19:00 orlok weird tension in office
19:02 eless-afk needs to go afk-er to remove soggy dirty clothes and don clean dry
19:03 GuShH orlok: slightly messy but... http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn4194f.jpg
19:04 GuShH just getting started with the garage, need to figure out a way to "fix" the floor... it's brick, friggin BRICK and it's nasty. uhh but anyway, that's the stand I made. I've yet to rivet the sides and make the doors and remaining shelves and the shelf mounts on the left column, I just couldn't wait to set it all up so I decided to do it later, the sides are done but need to be repainted (cat walked over the wet paint) ...
19:04 GuShH I also need to paint the entire room, someone left a dog in that garage before I came to be the owner... and it made a mess
19:04 orlok brick floor? wow
19:04 GuShH it even ruined the door.
19:04 orlok whats the brick on? rental?
19:04 GuShH orlok: concrete
19:05 GuShH they didn't spend much money on that garage when they built it
19:05 GuShH most people here don't have home shops either
19:05 GuShH they're useless puppets
19:06 GuShH I just had an argument with a hardware store owner, he claimed I was "too demanding" with my requests, I say he's too complacent.
19:06 orlok .. wtf heh
19:06 GuShH just because you don't stock a certain tap or cutting wheel doesn't mean I'm too demanding
19:06 ShH s
19:07 GuShH I was basically sent to an industrial zone to buy what I needed...
19:08 GuShH Just because most people don't know what a tap is or have no requirements for a 12 inch carbide cutting wheel
19:08 ShH goes back to work and quits bitching a
19:09 orlok wow, pretty sure even our crap "hardware warehouse" places have those
19:10 orlok i know they have tap+die sets, even if they dont know they come in metric and imperial
19:10 orlok rows and rows of bench saws and grinders, and nobody that knows how to use them
19:59 GuShH orlok: ok well, about cheap die and tap sets... those are carbon steel, pretty good stuff to clean up some existing thread or for a one-off threading operation on aluminum, but that's all they're good for. I was looking for high grade HSS taps specifically 1/2" 19TPI, handed the guy a fitting as well and he sweared it was 18TPI 1" ... that's when I knew he was an idiot.
19:59 GuShH a guy, much older than me, walked away.
19:59 GuShH I followed suit a few minutes after the display of stupidity
20:01 GuShH As for the disc / wheel, I wanted a 12 inch carbide insert tooth for aluminum and steel cutting (so it wouldn't leave burrs) I can slow down my chop saw to use one, so that was the idea, to replace the grinding wheel currently used as a cutoff wheel for a steel and carbide one, which like I said gives you a lot nicer results even though it whines when it cuts and it's very, very annoying. plus instead of dust you get tiny chips flying off...
20:01 GuShH oh and a lot more dangerous if you plunge it (an insert could fly off)
20:02 GuShH then again, never stand or sit in front of the wheel
20:02 GuShH always to the left side, as far away as possible.
20:05 GuShH Ever since the tree incident (a branch fell right into my right eye, I was on treatment for weeks, caused a closed globe injury, shy of a blowout out of sheer luck - if you can call it that) I wear my safety glasses a lot more.
20:05 GuShH I can see just fine, but I haven't got the balls to get the eye checked again, I bet I lost some visibility...
20:10 orlok this is a weird wait
20:10 orlok an hour to go now i think
20:14 GuShH orlok: what are you waiting for? aside from xmas
20:18 GuShH rue_house: kitteh update http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn4198f.jpg lathe update (rough pass, comparison left side after the new bolts, right side with original bolts) http://gushh.net/tmp/dscn4205f.jpg of course the left side is 19tpi and the right side wasn't
20:19 GuShH layout die really helps to see what's going on
20:19 GuShH love that stuff
20:20 GuShH might try to sharpen the parting blade, instead of using a saw to part it
20:32 theBear hmmm... in these modern and chaotic times, is there still any good reason to avoid 'extended' partitions ?
21:06 orlok GuShH: somebodys last day
21:06 orlok He's talking to the CFO currently
21:06 orlok then i go change all the passwords
21:53 rue_shop2 theBear, linux can handle all four primary, why use anything else?
21:55 Triffid_Hunter partitions? is that an obsolete version of LVM?
21:55 rue_shop2 hows lvm work?
21:55 rue_shop2 I thought lvm took partitions, local and remote drives, merged them all into one filesystem
21:57 orlok stil need partitions with lvm, and theres times lvm kinda sucks too
21:57 orlok rue_shop2: it lets you do that, and add more physicial disk space to a volume group, etc
21:58 orlok and you can set up lvm volumes as mirrored arrays, but you dont get the capabilities that linux software raid has
22:00 Triffid_Hunter rue_shop2: LVM collects any number of physical volumes into a large pool, from which it carves logical volumes which are analogous to partitions
22:00 Triffid_Hunter rue_shop2: really nice to put on top of raid, although there's some overlap in functionality between it and raid
22:01 Triffid_Hunter but due to the arbitrary mapping, you can reshuffle the LVs at will, and don't have to move 80% of the data on the drive if you shrink the first one
22:01 rue_shop2 I presume its easier to resize storage drives with it
22:01 Triffid_Hunter yes, significantly
22:01 rue_shop2 can I raid intermittently available network drives?
22:02 Triffid_Hunter rue_shop2: that would be terribad, your array would be running degraded most of the time
22:02 rue_shop2 terribad, thats new
22:03 Triffid_Hunter no, I think to handle intermittent availability you'd want something higher level than raid.. something more akin to a cloud file distribution network
22:03 orlok rsync
22:04 Triffid_Hunter rsync assumes you have enough local storage
22:04 Triffid_Hunter which I presume is not the case hee
22:04 Triffid_Hunter here*, otherwise rsync would be ideal
22:05 theBear rue_shop2, well maybe i want more than 4 <grin> maybe it has to be mbr for more than 1 reason, and err, that's enough reasons :)
22:06 orlok theres also the "new" partitioning scheme,
22:06 theBear and i know all about the lvm hype, and it DOES sound attractive in many ways, but i'm a SLOW adopter, and the arbitrary thing just feels 'messy' on small/simple setups like a single hd in a netbook
22:08 Triffid_Hunter heh I have LVM on top of raid on my storage drive.. laptop just has /boot and / partitions
22:08 Triffid_Hunter oh, and swap
22:08 theBear yeah, gpt/blah style, that won't work for this, a full sneaky hybrid arrangement might (dummy mbr mirrors gpt and nothing uses potentially overlapping areas of the disk) but if extended partitions work fine that sounds a lot easier than blind-troubleshooting to workout if the grumpiest 'thing' involved likes new partitions or now
22:08 Triffid_Hunter yeah extended are fine, just don't expect to boot something from them
22:09 theBear i remember we were told to avoid extended back in the linux 1.x days, as i recall something about swap and/or lilo not liking them, but things are different now
22:09 theBear well, grub will boot from them fine, i don't even need to check that, maybe you just told me in code to save one 'real' primary if i was going to have a ms-blah bootable partition in the mix, but mmm, all sounds reasonable
22:10 Triffid_Hunter grub boots extended? hm, didn't know that
22:11 theBear i get taken with ideas these days, near to obsession, between all the free time and short bursts of motivation.... today i'm quite fond of the shared between 'any booted os' 'user data' partition concept, so that in theory any other drive/os can be mindlessly replaced/updated/un-backed-up if something goes wrong
22:12 Triffid_Hunter theBear: yeah that's easy enough, problem is you're basically limited to fat32 as the lowest common denominator filesystem, and it's pretty dreadful in most regards
22:12 Triffid_Hunter ntfs-3g is actually outstanding these days, but I don't think mac can write ntfs
22:13 theBear i'm sure it will, bastard, now i gotta get the good word from the manual/features list <grin> but even if it didn't like things, on reflection it won't even know, real primary for 'special purpose', one for ms-anything that might ever see this drive/machine, one for grub/general non-totalitarian (read ms auto-installed) bootloaders and kernels and crap, then any real os's and user data partition can ha
22:13 theBear ppily be in an extended taking up the last real partition slot
22:14 theBear ahh but i'm not, see, ntfs3g is slow, maybe not on a real machine, but on the old netbook atom proc, it really isn't fast, and moreso if i split things into data/os(s) i gonna need things like (dev/general non-permananet) vm's running from my data dir, so i want speed, BUT ext2ifs still works good on every os i ever tried/used (yes, i AM many years behind) and every real os talks ext2/3 natively :)
22:15 theBear in theory the datadir doesn't need to be, maybe is desirably in-, visible to ms os's... the before-now setup was generally like that, i had the option but almost never used it
22:16 theBear either way, today, right now, i'm fond of the idea of mindless-os-replacement when needed
22:16 Triffid_Hunter theBear: why not just put ms in a VM? then you can use whatever you like
22:18 theBear because unless something radical has changed, racing car games (only good reason for that silly os, and maybe the odd touchy-on-timing ios flash/update) are crippled by the performance loss, particularly in the graphics dept, caused by a pre vt/blah processor hosting a vm, especially with an intel (last i checked far from supported) onboard graphics driver
22:20 theBear and i know i avoided it with the art of a artful dodger, but i'll finally tell you my horrible secret, the 'extra real partition' i need it a 'boot booster' cache, seems the system/video bios and a bunch of state information (kinda like os-agnostic hibernate upgrade for sleep mode, if you will,) gets stored there during successful/non-bios-reconfig boots to save you some posting and eeprom loading etc
22:23 theBear oh, and i suppose it depends what you meant by 'boot' ... it's been so long since i lived an ms or semi-normal life now... grub always gets both my mbr and the partition boot record (for safety/redundancy/typos) for the first primary partition on my machines.... thinking about it, i'm pretty sure nothing can possibly boot from a non-primary partition if yer talking pre 2ndstage bootloader, and even a 2
22:23 theBear ndstage would need to be 'found' by the stage 1/1.5 code
22:25 Triffid_Hunter hm, I have no worries running NFSMW on my lappy via wine, performance is about the same as under windows
22:25 orlok hmm. apparently the ex-employee is not happy, and there was some points in the contract that were not clear
22:35 orlok NFSMW?
23:16 Triffid_Hunter orlok: need for speed most wanted