#robotics Logs
Jul 09 2013
#robotics Calendar
00:00 robotustra true, but I think it's just a lack of practice
00:00 GuShH how dare you!
00:01 robotustra :)
00:01 GuShH if you can't see, it doesn't matter how much practice you've got.
00:01 GuShH I used to weld near a 150W incandescent flood light indoors...
00:01 robotustra I did good welding
00:02 GuShH this is cosmetic welding as much as it is structural.
00:02 GuShH I try not to grind off my welds
00:02 robotustra I did only structural welding
00:03 robotustra and one day I welded a cube of sheet metal 1x1x1 m
00:03 GuShH In structural you care a lot about penetration and avoiding inclusions... not so much how it looks.
00:03 robotustra for watering plants
00:03 GuShH uh
00:03 robotustra and it didn't leak
00:03 GuShH a cube, so ...a tank?
00:03 robotustra yes
00:04 robotustra 5 sides
00:04 robotustra 1 open
00:04 robotustra a bucket
00:04 GuShH wrong geometric shape for the volume, but nice.
00:04 ShH waits until robotustra mentions fish t
00:04 robotustra no, it had good shape to warm water on the sun
00:05 GuShH ok the cheap helmet goes down to DIN9, and open view is DIN4... let's see the more expensive one... I reckon it uses the same module
00:05 robotustra I think it's still works
00:05 GuShH why do you want warm water for plants?
00:05 GuShH ok the one that costs 40% more has DIN16 "protection" and the same low range DIN9...
00:06 robotustra because it's harming plants to water them with cold water
00:06 GuShH three times faster
00:06 robotustra from 4 degree water
00:06 GuShH speed possibly set by a capacitor, same module.
00:06 GuShH robotustra: it's harmful if it's too hot as well
00:06 GuShH or if you water them with direct sunlight!
00:06 robotustra yes
00:06 GuShH wtf "made in china, don't get fooled" huh?
00:07 robotustra and it was a tomporary storage for water
00:07 GuShH the expensive one is slightly bigger on the glass size
00:08 robotustra GuShH: they think that they do a quality products
00:08 GuShH irrelevant by how little difference there is in that regard
00:08 GuShH yeah well... whatever.
00:09 GuShH another one, even more expensive... comes with sensitivity selection plus the din selection...
00:09 GuShH pfft
00:10 GuShH oh and a grinding mode
00:10 GuShH that's neat
00:11 GuShH they're all DIN9 minimum DIN13 maximum...
00:11 GuShH But for grinding it must be DIN3 or lower
00:11 ShH sighs... china... lack of spec
00:13 robotustra lack of brain
00:14 robotustra I think they just copy stuff
00:16 GuShH robotustra: biggest differences are in the detection portion
00:17 GuShH the surface area of the solar cell...
00:17 GuShH "sensors" as they call them
00:17 GuShH in theory the solar cell works to power the circuit, and there should be separate photosensors
00:17 GuShH but on the cheapest ones, I can only see a small solar cell, nothing else.
00:18 GuShH (they work off coin cells too)
00:18 GuShH also in theory the coin cells are lithium, rechargeable...
00:19 robotustra everything is about calibration
00:19 GuShH huh?
00:19 robotustra but I think they skip this operation
00:20 GuShH no, the thing about them working directly off a small solar cell as both the source of power and arc detection is that the surface area is small and you may be blocking it, so you could get flashed as it won't detect it right away
00:20 GuShH so that's why proper masks come with several sensors, in an array.
00:20 GuShH to prevent that from happening, which is just as annoying as not being able to see, or worse... since you get flashed by the arc.
00:21 robotustra ok
00:21 GuShH for most bench welding a cheap one should do, but if you are working on tight places, with things all over the place and around you... I think you are better off using one with multiple sensors.
00:25 GuShH robotustra: I got a big ass old school SMAW unit for free, but I need to pick it up 100KMs from here... all copper winding, 100% duty on the highest setting... might even be oil cooled. Can't wait to try it out and compare with the one I currently have.
00:25 GuShH Although I don't even know where I'm going to put it...
00:34 robotustra too powerful?
00:45 GuShH robotustra: no space at the moment
00:56 robotustra I want hydrogen welder
01:14 rue_house dosn't take much heat to melt hydrogen ya know
08:14 robotustra hello
08:42 Jak_o_Android1 hi
11:45 zap0 hi
11:49 billmania zap0: Hello
11:49 zap0 i've got a small DC(i think) motor from an old CD drive's tray open/close mechanism.. it's only got 2 wires, so i presume its a simple DC motor.. anyone know if i can control it directly with an arduino ?
12:03 GuShH zap0: it's brushed dc... just apply power, use a transistor. and die for using an arduino.
12:07 GuShH stupid weather. I was welding and it began to pour down, couldn't see crap with the visor getting all misty
12:08 GuShH weather report says rains all day long... until midnight... sigh
12:08 GuShH tomorrow cloudy, thursday rain again... it only gets clear on saturday, damn it.
12:09 GuShH zap0: do you need on-off or reverse and maybe brake too?
12:09 zap0 apparetnly i need a H bridge
12:09 GuShH that's only if you need reverse.
12:10 GuShH again, you didn't specify, other than "I'm an arduinoob"
12:10 GuShH zap0: you can get away with just two transistors instead of a full h-bridge though
12:12 GuShH it depends on what exactly you need to do with the motor.
12:13 GuShH ....so?
12:13 GuShH what are your power supply rails
12:15 zap0 for the motor? not sure.. i'll have to figure that out.. i presume not much as the wires to the motor are tiny
12:15 GuShH I ask because if you have a negative voltage supply the direction control becomes simpler on the motor
12:17 GuShH zap0: that's a 5V motor most likely by the way, you could run it at 12V but it's life will be decreased, as the excess heat will damage it.
12:17 GuShH and the bushings may not even be able to take the abuse
12:17 zap0 luckly only use a 5V supply then, to power the arduino too.
12:18 GuShH figure out your requirements, then look at designing the control circuits.
12:18 GuShH you'll also need to snub the motor or run it off a separate supply to prevent issues with the digital circuit
12:18 GuShH usually a small value ceramic cap across the motor does wonders, that's how they've been snubbing them in the toy industry for decades.
12:24 ShH shakes fist ---- I want to weld this thing alrea
14:27 poli So what tools do people use for mechanical and kinematics of moving robot parts these days?
14:27 poli If that has a CAD integrated would be even better
14:39 GuShH poli: people?
14:39 poli GuShH: yes, like you and me.
14:39 poli :)
14:40 GuShH maybe I'm a robot?
14:40 GuShH beep
14:40 GuShH boop
14:40 poli GuShH: Would you pass in a turing test?
14:40 GuShH poli: depends, most of the "cool" tools are not within anyone's budget
14:40 GuShH so trial and error plus an understanding of basic mechanics is often enough
14:41 GuShH these days you can afford to print small prototype parts on ABS or similar
14:41 GuShH makes it a lot easier.
14:41 poli GuShH: I might have free access to some of the tools though the university's vairous agreements, I am actually just collecting the names so I can check. I haven't used any of these tools in many many years, and just trying to find out what is around these days.
14:42 GuShH it's not just the tools
14:42 GuShH it's what you can do with them.
14:42 poli GuShH: Please tell me more.
14:42 GuShH which is to say you can't buy talent nor experience :p
14:42 GuShH ask rue_house
14:43 GuShH I think he mostly uses pen and paper
14:43 GuShH it doesn't matter how you get to the end, as long as you get there.
14:43 GuShH plus becoming profecient in solidworks and all the extra packages they offer is not something you can achieve on a weekend
14:43 GuShH not even a month or two.
14:43 GuShH (likewise with any other mainstream package)
14:44 poli I am lousy at CAD, hand design or anything for that matters, barely enough to get through university, but that's something I have to do, so back to learn how.
14:44 GuShH poli: are you trying to simulate physics as well, or just basic constraints
14:45 GuShH working under specific standards or your own?
14:45 poli GuShH: baby steps, just basic constraints. Not a robotic arm of something, just positioning a seat for a "robotic" wheel chair
14:45 poli GuShH: my own
14:47 GuShH poli: I have an old license of C4D and that's what I use, it's far from ideal when it comes to CAD... it's mostly for artistic uses, but works for everything solid I've designed, I don't really do any robotics...
14:47 GuShH Most packages like Blender can be setup for basic CAD work as well
14:47 GuShH and you can even get CAM outputs
14:47 GuShH if that's a requirement.
14:48 GuShH Lots of people use SketchUp as well, for their hobbies.
14:48 GuShH C4D is very similar to Rhino, you just can't do real analysis of structures or anything an advanced CAD package would give you
14:48 poli GuShH: that's a very good start, thanks for the tips!
14:49 poli I used Mechanical Desktop and some Catia 10+ years ago. Are they still good options?
14:49 poli We must have some old licenses for those available somewhere.
14:49 GuShH But for design, as long as you can set the world coordinates to something translatable to the real world and as long as you've got some form of parametric control over your shapes, then it's good enough. You don't have to go with SolidWorks or AutoCad just to design shapes
14:51 GuShH (Unless you're talking gears, etc.) Another cool thing about most CAD packages is that you get access to real life parametric models of gears, screws, bearings, etc. which is a time saver.
14:52 GuShH poli: try to get started on SolidWorks if you can, it's slow and at first the interface doesn't make much sense unless you've got prior CAD experience but it's a pretty good package. Used it for several months, now I just don't have a license to use it anymore...
14:53 poli GuShH: Good hint, I will try to find a license for it. Thanks for the help, it was much appreciated.
14:54 GuShH Actually I could've used SW a few days ago to analyze the lathe stand I'm making :(
14:54 GuShH (Because OCD is like that).
14:57 GuShH There's also SolidEdge from Siemens, lots of big companies have their own specific CAD solution. Never tried it..
14:57 GuShH poli: see if AutoDesk still has a free educational license for their products
14:58 poli GuShH: I will. We have lots of those, even from companies that do not have educational programs.
15:16 GuShH poli: got me thinking though, there ought to be an open source alternative...
15:17 GuShH with online collaboration and libraries...
15:39 poli GuShH: I was actually searching for that too.
15:40 GuShH LibreCAD is only 2D from what I've seen...
15:40 poli Blender you mentioned.
15:40 GuShH But it's not strictly CAD
15:41 poli I know, but it is 3D and open source.
15:41 GuShH you can do the same parametric stuff I can with C4D, on Blender.
15:42 GuShH I actually use C4D for 2D as well, and quite frankly a few of the 3D parts are based off 2D forms such as lathe parts
15:42 GuShH where a 2D profile is revolved around an axis
15:43 GuShH There's OpeNSCAD and FreeCAD, haven't tried them... they're probably mostly parametric old school CAD packages
15:46 poli GuShH: I was taking a look at the free KDL and Bullet, but no real input interface.
15:47 GuShH yeah if I wanted to go back to the 70-80s I'd just grab one of my old AutoCad versions
15:49 poli maybe the new MoveIt!, I haven't checked it.
16:08 Baribal Hi. I'm trying to get started on robotics. While the computing side won't be a problem (that I can't handle), I have no clue how to build and motorize a robotic skeleton. Got any pointers on what to buy?
16:09 GuShH Baribal: steel!, aluminum!, wood!
16:12 Baribal I assume you don't know something of the top of your head that doesn't require a machine shop? :p I think I can get as sophisticated as using a screwdriver...
16:12 robotustra BY!
16:13 Hukka Baribal: "skeleton"?
16:13 Baribal Hukka, I was thinking about making a robotic plush toy, so a box with wheels won't cut it.
16:18 Hukka Baribal: Could you make the plush around a plastic kit?
16:18 Hukka Like bioloid or something else
16:19 Baribal That looks promising, too.
16:20 Hukka You can sometimes find them second hand. New kits are sold by robosavvy in EU
16:20 Baribal Even more than Meccano, even. What kind of interface to those motors use, anything that I can interface with a Linux-based Raspberry Pi out of the box?
16:21 Hukka At least the voltage would be a problem
16:22 GuShH Baribal: meccano!
16:24 Baribal Hukka, how so? How *do* those interfaces work? If you mean voltage just to run motors, I can provide that with batteries, but if the interface is more basic than "plug all your elements into this box which has a USB cable which you plug into your computer", then things get... complicated for me. I'm mostly a software guy...
16:24 GuShH Baribal: steel can be cut with an angle grinder and welded with a stick welder, it doesn't require a machine shop, but as you'd want to drill relatively accurate holes you'd want a drill press... and... and...
16:25 GuShH likewise with any other material, unless it comes pre-drilled and pre-tapped
16:25 Baribal GuShH, I have absolutely no space to do that. If I can't build it on my desk, I can't build it, period.
16:25 GuShH balsa wood...
16:26 GuShH maybe even poplar
16:26 robotustra I have a piece of balsa here
16:26 Hukka Baribal: The command logic on Robotis servos is 5v. Raspi is 3.3v, so it's fried when connected to the servos (if they get their operational 8-14V from the battery)
16:26 GuShH robotustra: I grew up around balsa
16:26 robotustra lucky you
16:27 GuShH I would design and build my own small scale airplanes
16:27 GuShH no, that's mostly all I ever did
16:27 robotustra I bought one at Hobby King
16:27 GuShH instead of playing with other kids I was on my desk making blueprints and planes
16:27 GuShH mostly gliders.
16:27 robotustra it waits for it's time
16:27 GuShH lol
16:27 GuShH robotustra: maybe you could mill a small diesel engine for it?
16:27 GuShH you know you want to.
16:28 robotustra no, it's elestric
16:28 GuShH that's for fags.
16:28 GuShH you just lost some respect!
16:28 robotustra but if you do cylinder-piston pair for it - probobly - yes
16:28 GuShH real men use internal combustion engines.
16:28 robotustra it's too small for combustion
16:28 GuShH me?, once I'm setup and once I've got a dial indicator and at least 100 hours on this lathe, maybe.
16:29 GuShH nothing is too small for combustion.
16:29 GuShH you can even fly a bare .049 cox
16:29 GuShH with a rag.
16:29 robotustra electricity is a POWER
16:29 GuShH go play with Edison you sissy
16:29 robotustra combustion - is a steampunk
16:29 ShH kicks robotustra's c
16:29 robotustra he he
16:30 robotustra go run IRC on combustion
16:30 GuShH I WILL
16:30 robotustra pollution man
16:30 GuShH http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58211
16:30 Hukka Baribal: Anyway, that would probably be the easiest way to go. Not the cheapest, though
16:30 robotustra all your balsa trees will die because on gas and oil
16:31 GuShH robotustra: can you imagine machining those parts? and honing that cylinder...
16:31 GuShH holy shit.
16:31 GuShH Hukka: yeah balsa wasn't cheap
16:31 GuShH lots of materials you can use for robotics though
16:31 robotustra I can machine it
16:31 robotustra it's not small enough
16:31 GuShH robotustra: I challenge you to replicate a working .001 cubic inch diesel
16:32 GuShH I do remind you the conrod has to be hardened, as well as the pins
16:32 robotustra easy, because I used complession engines in my chiledhood
16:32 GuShH you may only use alu for the crankcase and the cylinder head, you might want to use iron or at least steel for the cylinder itself
16:32 robotustra it was 1.7 cm^3 as soon as I remember
16:32 GuShH it's compression, you asian.
16:32 GuShH using != machining
16:33 GuShH don't be so obtuse and give the man some credit, it takes a lot of time to make an engine like that.
16:33 robotustra ah
16:33 GuShH and tools and experience and patience
16:33 GuShH and coffee
16:33 GuShH and some balls too
16:34 GuShH the tolerances are very tight, it's diesel may I remind you
16:34 robotustra my teacher in building planes did piston-cylinder pairs by his own
16:34 GuShH (not exactly the same diesel you get from the gas station though, but it's compression ignition nonetheless)
16:34 GuShH lots of lubricant on these diesel mixes because it's basically a 2 stroke that 4 strokes on idle
16:34 robotustra and he did it from scratch
16:34 GuShH your teacher is not you
16:35 Baribal Hukka, "that" being?
16:35 robotustra I know the technology
16:35 ShH s
16:35 Hukka Baribal: The kit
16:35 robotustra but I will not repeat it because I don't have a lethe
16:35 robotustra lathe
16:35 robotustra and tools
16:35 GuShH excuses!
16:35 GuShH Some of those parts have been milled.
16:36 robotustra cylinder and piston are from cast iron
16:36 Baribal Hukka, you mean the Bioloid kit? Mechanically it does indeed look very promising, but so far I have no idea how I'd actually control it...
16:36 GuShH you wouldn't want a cast iron piston
16:36 GuShH you'd want dissimilar metals to begin with
16:37 GuShH and a very resistant one for the cylinder lining as well
16:37 Hukka Baribal: You could use any 5v microcontroller
16:37 robotustra and the are fitting to each other with a paste
16:37 Hukka If you buy the whole kit, not just the servos, it comes with a controller
16:37 GuShH that's for the honing process
16:37 robotustra no
16:37 Hukka Or you can use an arduino or whatever
16:37 GuShH sigh.
16:37 GuShH robotustra: we'll always disagree with everything.
16:37 robotustra honing is in the very end
16:38 Baribal Hukka, okay, now I start getting it. :D
16:38 Hukka What are you plans for it, would you really need a Cortex level cpu?
16:38 GuShH if you had to grind first then you didn't do a very good turning job
16:38 robotustra and for cylinder only I know what it is
16:38 Hukka In general I've found raspi to be quite awful for robotics
16:38 Hukka Overall the IO is pretty limited, and the USB implementations sucks
16:39 Hukka Rather use beagle or cubie or something else
16:39 robotustra GuShH: what do you fit cylinder to piston or piston to cylinder?
16:39 GuShH and cylinders cannot be simply drilled, they have to be bored and then reamed
16:39 Baribal Hukka, do you know the Phototourism algorithm?
16:39 GuShH after that the mating process differs.
16:39 GuShH robotustra: in russia we use thor's hammer.
16:40 GuShH robotustra: I'm laughing at the price tag http://ronald-valentine-engines.com/29_Mini_Bee_0.html
16:40 Baribal Hukka, basically, I want to throw everything into it what I know about computer vision, audio processing and artificial intelligence that I know, and being a long-term computer science student, I know quite a bit.
16:40 robotustra GuShH: to hit smbdys head?
16:40 robotustra or balls?
16:40 GuShH heh use your imagination
16:41 Hukka Baribal: Well then no ARM is going to be powerful enough ;)
16:41 Baribal So I want it to create "menta" 3D models of its surroundings, wag its tail when it recognizes my face and so on.
16:41 Hukka Watson has a mainframe behind it
16:41 GuShH robotustra: buy now, only 345
16:41 robotustra one carrot and 345$ away
16:41 robotustra I'm not too good pilot yet
16:41 GuShH ONLY 345! can't let it go!
16:42 Baribal Hukka, no reason to limit myself to one CPU, either. :) I know quite a bit about cluster systems, too.
16:42 robotustra and this guy is too small for my plane
16:42 GuShH that's what she said.
16:42 robotustra 345 is only engine
16:42 GuShH get a cox 049, they're nice and you'll annoy everyone.
16:42 Hukka Baribal: Then you'd need to just have a simple microcontroller within the toy, linked wirelessly to the processing part
16:42 GuShH robotustra: 345 is a steal, they're full of shit and they should be raped with a 10 inch reamer.
16:42 robotustra another 20 for servo and another 50 fjr battery
16:43 robotustra another 30 for fuel
16:43 GuShH depends, on that scale you'd use 3 dollar servos
16:43 robotustra no, thanks
16:43 GuShH and why is it still raining! and now even if it stopped, it's too dark to do anything
16:43 GuShH robotustra: aww what's wrong, you don't like cheap china crap?
16:43 robotustra I already have electric motor for $30 + regulator for $30
16:43 GuShH I'll let you machine your own metal gears for the $2 servo
16:43 ShH chuc
16:43 Baribal That'd be an option, too, though it doesn't really matter where the processing part is physically. I can just scale up the toy and put more computing units into it as long as the servos have enough oomph to move the toy around and there's a system to get rid of the heat.
16:44 GuShH rl
16:44 robotustra I'll crash it, it doesn't worse it
16:44 GuShH err robotustra are you following Baribal's conversation?
16:44 robotustra no
16:44 robotustra I'm looking movie
16:45 GuShH seems like a lot of theoretical mumbo jumbo.
16:45 GuShH from the 70s
16:45 Hukka Baribal: Even for laptop level processing power, you'd need quite expensive servos
16:45 Hukka Baribal: Check out DarwinOP for an example
16:45 GuShH Oh he's trying to build a girlfriend
16:45 Hukka It's Nao-like in it's capabilities, but open
16:46 Hukka Pretty much state of the hobby art in it's size class. Won the RCJ too this year
16:46 Baribal I think I know those, they're used at my alma maters RoboCup team. :D
16:47 robotustra rubber girlfriend with boobs?
16:47 Hukka Whops, year RC, not RCJ
16:47 GuShH http://ronald-valentine-engines.com/Schlosser_1.html
16:47 Hukka But even Darwin has only an Atom
16:48 robotustra GuShH: you'll not change my mind
16:48 GuShH robotustra: oh?
16:49 GuShH I have a Magnum XL 46 on my plane
16:49 robotustra about combustion
16:49 GuShH it purrs on idle... I'd like to see an electric do that, oh wait they don't have to idle :<
16:49 Hukka Baribal: But if you have not done anything like this before, I'd recommend something simpler... and cheaper
16:49 Baribal GuShH, why not go all out in the engine department? :D http://www.jetcat.de/jetcatturbinen/strahlturbinen.htm
16:50 robotustra Baribal: we are looking after you so
16:50 GuShH Baribal: because... I want to keep my hearing.
16:50 GuShH I've been near model turbines and it's not pleasant.
16:50 GuShH 10 times more annoying than a 2 stroke heli.
16:50 Baribal Hukka, I'm still tinkering up the basics, crunching images using OpenCV and Python. I'll only start spending money when I'll have something of which I think I'd need articulation to be improved further.
16:50 robotustra they starts from $1000 I think
16:51 GuShH as if I could afford that
16:51 robotustra Baribal: what do you have already?
16:51 GuShH P400-RX-G / price: 10 710, - € (incl.19% VAT.)
16:51 GuShH P400-RX-G / price: 10 710, - € (incl.19% VAT.)
16:52 GuShH is that 10k euro?
16:52 GuShH must be a mistake.
16:52 GuShH I see the specs and I can't see it worth 10k.
16:52 Baribal Also, a HDD headcrash ate most of my code, so it'll be a while until I'm up to speed again, but last thing I was working on was taking in a movie and putting out a 3D model.
16:54 ace4016 395N of thrust
16:54 GuShH lol http://ronald-valentine-engines.com/Ikarus_10___8.html
16:54 robotustra Baribal: Did you already some hardware?
16:54 Baribal robotustra, nope, I'm a virgin in that regard.
16:54 GuShH ace4016: yes... will you pay over 10k euro for one?
16:57 ace4016 according to my calculations, for thrust per euro, it's a bit of a rip-off
16:57 ace4016 their cheapest engine does 97N of thrust for 1750 euro
16:58 ace4016 not sure if that's necessarily the best thrust/euro though, but it's .05 compared to .03
16:59 robotustra GuShH: go and buy your $345 engine than
16:59 robotustra don't punch out brain
16:59 GuShH robotustra: I said that also was a ripoff
17:00 GuShH ace4016: seems model jets are and will always be for rich assholes only.
17:00 ace4016 yup
17:00 GuShH I qualify on the asshole criteria, but nothing else
17:00 robotustra GuShH: one day you'll become reach and will buy such engines for supper
17:00 ShH p
17:01 GuShH robotustra: let's hope so, but instead I'd rather spend that money on something else.
17:01 ace4016 although i don't know just how much they *should* cost
17:01 Skwynt for supper?
17:01 Skwynt they'd make an interesting BBQ
17:01 robotustra :)
17:01 ace4016 i'm guessing they're low quantity production items
17:01 robotustra perverts
17:01 GuShH robotustra: I'd find it more interesting to buy everyone in this channel a plane ticket to a certain location and determine whether the outcome resembles anything like the starwars "cantina" scene
17:01 ace4016 they haven't seen the savings of a proper production line
17:02 ace4016 lol
17:03 Baribal Pkay, gentlemen, good night and thanks for all the hints.
17:04 GuShH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsLzO91M_hc haha
17:08 GuShH ace4016: yeah they're small runs, probably per order... still, way too expensive.
17:09 robotustra GuShH: hm... and where is that place?
17:12 GuShH robotustra: midpoint between everyone
17:12 robotustra Center of the Earth?
17:12 GuShH also I'd make sure they get the absolute worst flight of their lives.
17:13 robotustra it's better to meet at some famous place
17:14 robotustra like people at burning man usually do
17:14 GuShH So you are trying to take even more of my hipotetical fortune? damn you! this is my fantasy not yours!!
17:14 GuShH err hypothtetical
17:14 GuShH damn it. hypothetical.
17:14 GuShH there!
17:14 robotustra :)
17:15 robotustra what about 2020. Eifel tower?
17:15 GuShH should be down before 2020
17:15 GuShH robotustra: also I'd make you all wear blue makeup.
17:15 robotustra ok, 2016?
17:16 robotustra what for?
17:16 GuShH eiffel 65
17:16 GuShH damn that's old stuff! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ugkg9RePc
17:17 robotustra or stounhandge
17:17 GuShH on stonehenge I'll make you wear nothing.
17:18 GuShH by the way you know you want it http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/372074
17:19 robotustra no
17:19 robotustra ringtone is ok, but I prefer Bethowen and Bach
17:19 GuShH haha
17:20 robotustra Toccata
17:22 robotustra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzR9bhei_o&t=80
17:23 GuShH robotustra: progress http://gushh.net/tmp/lathe%20stand%20mk21.png red are the parts already cut...
17:23 GuShH I had to finish cutting parts for another project, so that's where I spent most of the time :(
17:24 robotustra and you are still talking with me? let's cut, I'll go to mill a bit
17:24 ShH c
17:24 robotustra why?
17:25 GuShH it's dark out, rains.
17:25 robotustra I milled a square bar in the morning
17:25 GuShH and I can't pull the stock inside the garage, too long.
17:25 GuShH for what?
17:25 robotustra for outer frame of eye
17:25 GuShH oh
17:25 GuShH do you save all the shavings? heh
17:25 GuShH I need to finish my "foundry"
17:26 robotustra yes
17:26 robotustra I have G-codes
17:26 robotustra just run it that's it
17:26 GuShH I mean the wasted aluminum...
17:27 GuShH oh, had to cut some 45° for a frame... what a nightmare with the angle grinder, lots of touch-ups to get it right, lots of time...
17:29 robotustra and welding will be also the pain
17:30 GuShH robotustra: not so much, I'll get the auto helmet
17:30 robotustra shavings, do you mean small pieces?
17:30 GuShH robotustra: so if you just press a button and wait for it, why the hell do you stare at the mill for all those hours?
17:30 robotustra yes
17:31 GuShH "oh and now it's about to turn right... wait for it... yerp *sips coffee*"
17:31 GuShH you insane mofo.
17:31 GuShH go do something else while it's milling
17:31 robotustra it was cooling down
17:31 robotustra I can mill only 3 hours
17:31 robotustra and I have to install radiator on it
17:31 GuShH install it then!
17:32 robotustra but I'll spend a day on it
17:32 robotustra soon
17:32 GuShH two friggin hose clamps and some fittings / hose
17:32 robotustra may be this weekend
17:32 GuShH it's a national holiday today, here.
17:32 GuShH but it sucked, rained all day long
17:32 robotustra first I have to understand how to make it nice
17:32 GuShH you'll never finish it then
17:32 robotustra don't warry
17:33 robotustra I have all parts, but I have to hang them properly on a box
17:33 robotustra and there ia s thermometer and fan
17:33 GuShH like you'll hang yourself the day it all goes up in smoke?
17:33 GuShH thermostat I guess, unless you're doing PID for no good reason
17:33 robotustra :)
17:34 GuShH set to what temperature? 60°C ?
17:34 GuShH or lower
17:34 robotustra no
17:34 robotustra there is no thermostat
17:34 GuShH at which temperature does your coolant seriously begin to lose it's properties?
17:34 robotustra it will be the indication
17:34 GuShH simplify and use a bimetallic thermostat
17:34 GuShH don't be a hero
17:35 robotustra how coolant will loose it's properties if it's a water?
17:35 GuShH I didn't know it was plain water.
17:35 GuShH See I wouldn't use plain water on a lathe either.
17:35 robotustra I use raw water
17:35 GuShH robotustra: and it does, as it gets boiling hot, there's nothing else to cool
17:36 GuShH how can the heat be transferred if it's changing state!
17:36 robotustra and it's heating up to 50 degree for 3 hours of work
17:36 robotustra from room temperatire
17:36 GuShH just inline the radiator and use a 50°C thermostat for the fan/s
17:36 GuShH a thermocouple or any other sensor + PID controller or similar is overkill for this
17:36 GuShH no good reason for it.
17:37 robotustra I'll see
17:37 GuShH a bimetallic thermostat costs 2 bucks
17:37 GuShH requires no power
17:37 GuShH KSD301 series
17:37 robotustra I have thermometer with led indicator
17:37 GuShH NO version
17:38 robotustra 50 is too much
17:38 robotustra 40 is ok
17:38 robotustra even 35
17:38 GuShH they go down to 35 or 40, I'm not sure.. I use much higher temperatures
17:38 GuShH the hysteresis is what matters though
17:39 GuShH (the thermostats I use for work are not related to cooling...)
17:39 robotustra is it warerproof?
17:39 GuShH no
17:39 GuShH they're not for immersion
17:40 GuShH you can get them wet though, but why would you...
17:40 robotustra hm
17:41 GuShH Go for an LM35 encased in silicone then
17:41 GuShH voltage comparator set to window comparator and transistor on the output
17:41 GuShH or be a wasteful dipshit and use a microcontroller.
18:00 robotustra started
18:00 robotustra have to blow chips away sometimes
18:00 robotustra before I install compressor
18:01 robotustra and the next will be the vacuum cleaner
18:21 GuShH robotustra: you are basically the machine's bitch
19:01 robotustra GuShH: chill down your fantasies
19:04 poli GuShH: why not a US$2.50 stainless steel + plastic DS18B20?
19:05 GuShH poli: because in reality you don't need to go digital for a simple ON-OFF fan based on a fixed temperature range
19:06 GuShH there's no need.
19:23 poli GuShH: Oh, I hadn't read that part. Thanks.
19:24 GuShH poli: no, I'm just saying...
19:25 poli I did not know what the application was.
19:25 GuShH oh, it's for a mill coolant system, he wants to chill it with a radiator and a fan
19:25 GuShH if you go digital you are making it a lot more complex for no good reason...
19:26 GuShH sometimes I wonder if most people can even design analog circuits these days
19:27 poli GuShH: I wonder exactly the same.
19:46 robotustra I can
19:47 robotustra but digital circuits are simpler to design
19:48 robotustra GuShH: I have thermometer like this http://www.ebay.ca/itm/12V-DC-Blue-Backlight-Digital-Thermometer-For-PC-Water-or-Liquid-Cooling-System-/150959737484?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2325e6ca8c&_uhb=1
19:49 GuShH robotustra: lawl
19:49 GuShH simpler...
19:49 GuShH you'll waste hours fooling around in software whereas I'd be doing something else by going through the analog route for this
19:49 GuShH or worse, you'll waste time trying to figure out what's wrong in the analog realm of your circuit.
19:49 robotustra I will switch on cooling system when start spindle and will just switch off it when stop it
19:50 GuShH that's wasteful
19:50 GuShH and dumb.
19:50 robotustra but relyable
19:50 GuShH no.
19:50 robotustra pump works all the time
19:50 GuShH If you want reliability you add a second thermostat switch to open if the coolant exceeds a certain temperature
19:51 GuShH just because something works all the time it does not make it more reliable
19:51 GuShH it makes it wasteful and shortens the life of the pump
19:51 robotustra less parts = more relyable system
19:51 robotustra by definition
19:52 GuShH and if you wanted true reliability you'd add a flow meter, and a PID, and you'd be a retard for doing that anyway.
19:52 GuShH robotustra: no, in theory.
19:52 robotustra I have it
19:52 GuShH And my suggestion is purely passive and mechanical
19:52 robotustra flow meter
19:52 GuShH It's not required
19:52 GuShH I think you have actual OCD.
19:52 robotustra it's simple mechanical
19:53 robotustra I just run spindle without cooling for 38 minutes
19:53 robotustra and it didn't burn :)
19:53 GuShH why would the spindle burn?
19:53 GuShH you mean your tool
19:53 robotustra not
19:53 robotustra I'm talking about watercooling spindle
19:53 robotustra all the time
19:54 robotustra but I don't know what are you talking about :)
19:54 GuShH I think your English presents several walls that are rather difficult to climb, or some people -me included- simply not care to climb.
19:54 robotustra my English is not perfect for sure
19:54 GuShH Are you talking about a water jacket to prevent burning of the spindle bearing due to transferred heat, or are you talking about tooling and work coolant
19:55 GuShH bearing/s
19:55 robotustra yes
19:55 GuShH Oh and by the way, the latter works for both.
19:55 robotustra colling of bearings
19:55 GuShH bearings, sealed?
19:55 GuShH after all you were using plain water
19:55 robotustra yes
19:56 robotustra distilled water
19:56 GuShH you said "raw water"
19:56 robotustra now
19:56 GuShH are they even rated for this use
19:56 robotustra but before move I used distilled
19:56 robotustra yes
19:57 robotustra it's water cooling spindle
19:57 robotustra like this http://www.ebay.ca/itm/HIGH-SPEED-1-5KW-WATER-COOL-SPINDLE-MOTOR-FOR-ENGRAVING-MILL-GRIND-a5-/180730060648?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1459df68&_uhb=1
19:57 GuShH just a water jacket... the same solution applies, there's no need for anything digital on that.
19:58 robotustra and I run it at 6000 rpm
19:58 GuShH if anything reliability goes down when you go digital.
19:58 GuShH "water-coole" lol
19:59 GuShH does the runoff actually fall within the specified 0.005mm they claim?
19:59 GuShH runout*
19:59 GuShH I kept reading the chinglish and it chinglified me.
19:59 robotustra I think it looks like truth
19:59 GuShH looks?
19:59 GuShH you can't see anything at 0.005mm
19:59 robotustra I can theck
20:00 GuShH it's a dial indicator task
20:00 robotustra I can, I have a micrometer
20:00 robotustra I have it
20:00 GuShH but see does not mean measure
20:00 robotustra 0.0002"
20:00 GuShH "see" implies with your bare eyes
20:00 GuShH unless you add "with X tool"
20:01 GuShH how else am I going to know how you were "seeing" or what you were "seeing" !
20:01 robotustra no, I don't nee such precision, because max what I want from this mill is 0.025 mm
20:01 GuShH robotustra: I can be pedantic about your English, as English is not my native tongue.
20:01 robotustra and I can't do better than 0.025
20:02 robotustra mm
20:02 robotustra theoretically - one step of motor is 0.004 mm
20:02 GuShH I just asked to know if their claims were true
20:02 GuShH Also, as you introduce errors on every component, in the end it adds up
20:02 GuShH So it doesn't hurt to know
20:03 GuShH (the runout of each component)
20:03 GuShH robotustra: is the water jacket all aluminum?
20:04 robotustra no, it's a steel body
20:04 GuShH have you taken it apart?
20:04 robotustra may be aluminium inside, but I'm not sure, because spindle is quite heavy
20:04 GuShH maybe it's just a stainless steel lining
20:04 robotustra no, I didn't plan to disassemble it
20:04 GuShH heh
20:05 GuShH better leave it as-is
20:05 robotustra unless it breaks
20:05 robotustra yes
20:05 GuShH Hmmm
20:05 GuShH Well, if the bearings run dry ....
20:05 robotustra no
20:05 robotustra I think they are lubricated
20:05 GuShH Like on chinese mills and lathes, often one of the two spindle bearings is not packed with grease
20:05 GuShH the auction mentioned grease lubrication
20:06 GuShH is there a greasing port? or is it just all packed in and sealed...
20:06 robotustra I can say that there are similar spindles but with air cooling
20:06 robotustra it's just packed
20:06 GuShH I'd rather use water cooling
20:07 robotustra I don't see any orifices for lubrication
20:07 robotustra so do I
20:07 robotustra and water cooled spindle is just chiper
20:08 robotustra I think at low speed and small load it can mill without cooling as I did ah hour ago
20:09 robotustra I niticed that I forget to turn it on
20:09 GuShH Hmmm
20:09 robotustra it's so silent now that I can't hear the pomp while the box is closed
20:09 GuShH I'd go as far as adding temperature sensing on the inlet and outlet plus on the housing
20:10 robotustra spindle works louder then all other stuff
20:10 robotustra I'll put temperature sensor only after radiator
20:12 robotustra actually it's heating slowly
20:12 robotustra like 2 degree per 30 minutes
20:12 robotustra 5 degree in 1 hour
20:12 GuShH while circulating?
20:13 GuShH even a honda civic radiator will cope with that!
20:22 robotustra yes
20:22 robotustra but I have only 4 liters without radiator
20:23 robotustra just a bucket with 4 liters of water circulating through spindle
20:24 robotustra And I'll add external radiator on exit of spindle and before bucket
21:07 robotustra GuShH: http://maholet.livejournal.com/30530.html
21:09 GuShH robotustra: I wonder
21:10 GuShH if aluminum (or any other metal) shavings collect on top of the inner tubes and they find their way between the board and the tube, with some vibration the rubber would get cut and the tubes would fail
21:10 GuShH (I do see some alu shavings on top of the tube on this picture http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/maholet/24765393/19933/19933_600.jpg )
21:11 GuShH in theory each little bit of metal could act like a knife or a file...
21:11 GuShH add some fabric or plastic all over the wood that extends toward the soundproof frame
21:11 GuShH as a sort of swarf tray
21:12 GuShH but if the vibrations are low... then I bet the tubes will last for months
21:12 robotustra I usually suck it with vacuum cleaner but I'll add some cover of cause
21:12 GuShH not sure about years, they dry up on their own
21:12 robotustra yeah
21:12 GuShH it's not a bad idea, air cushions in general work very well for dampening
21:12 robotustra just put then in kerosine once ayear
21:12 GuShH look at big trucks if not :p
21:13 robotustra I'm happy with it now, let's see how it will work
21:14 GuShH I like it, but it does seem to take up some space
21:14 ShH needs to get rid of "shit" before he can even setup his lathe once the stand is b
21:15 robotustra you mean tubes?
21:15 GuShH no, the entire mill with the soundproof box
21:15 GuShH lots of space...
21:15 GuShH brb, painting in the kitchen.
21:15 robotustra not much
21:15 GuShH (underneath the sink....)
21:15 GuShH (not fun)
21:15 robotustra 30x30x24 "
21:16 GuShH looks bigger
21:16 robotustra may be, but these are sizes
21:16 robotustra 30" height
21:16 robotustra and 24" depth
21:18 robotustra GuShH: You'd found very interesting place for painting :)
21:31 GuShH robotustra: not my choice...
21:32 GuShH whoever originally installed the sink did a very bad job
21:32 GuShH bolted it directly to the marble countertop... they added too much weight, it gave in and cracked in multiple places (assumption, maybe someone just tried to stand on it, it was already broken when I got here...)
21:33 GuShH the bolt part is not an assumption, the cracks developed where they had drilled the marble
21:33 GuShH and one was still jammed in there
21:33 robotustra mess
21:33 GuShH so I'm making a steel frame to go underneath, so the marble won't bear any load, then I'll reconstruct the marble top
21:34 GuShH upstairs they did the same
21:34 GuShH cracked marble, but I think someone tried to sit on the edge of the sink (bathroom... use your imagination, probably sex related)
21:35 GuShH I hope a chunk of it went right up into their arse.
21:35 GuShH (since there's a missing chunk)
21:36 GuShH it's possible to reconstruct / restore marble, but it takes a long time and a lot of polishing... however it's either that or buying it all new, then having to reinstall all the faucets, etc.
21:36 GuShH I'm becoming a big fan of concrete things lately...
21:37 GuShH (have you seen the polished concrete sinks?) they can even add glass or other stones in there to make interesting textures and they're really hard.
21:38 GuShH http://st.houzz.com/simgs/2bf122380c0ff043_4-1000/modern-bathroom.jpg http://dexindustries.com/assets/polished_concrete_1.jpg I must say that's an interesting design, but it doesn't seem very practical.
21:40 GuShH also it seems a lot of valuables could fall right into the slot, surely they've thought about it but still, not a big fan of those designs, but I do like the material http://www.designerstone.co.uk/760_315_csupload_54625021.jpg?u=3331617069
21:40 robotustra yeah, nice
21:41 GuShH then again reparing those might be as complex as repairing the marble ones...
21:41 GuShH if at all possible
21:41 GuShH to think it's mostly concrete, but here they're very expensive.
21:42 robotustra and you can get nice glanced surface if you just put polyethilene on it
21:42 GuShH I need to seal the marble after polishing, still not sure what to use
21:42 GuShH (ran the numbers for new countertops and everything, it's too expensive)
21:44 GuShH I should've replaced the o-ring on the shutoff valves before I painted.... sigh
22:18 GuShH robotustra: hmm these are the bearings on the lathe headstock http://www.eabs.co.uk/shop/product.php?pid=4225 I wonder if I should already try to obtain better quality ones...
22:19 GuShH http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit12451
22:24 robotustra bearing are making may be in 3 main plants in the world
22:24 robotustra japanese one one of the best
22:25 robotustra but from UK I think also is good
22:26 robotustra I had roller bearing in citroen ZX in front supports
22:26 robotustra they are unbreakable
22:27 robotustra and have very low freaction
22:28 robotustra in comparison to ball bearing
22:44 GuShH robotustra: well, it depends on the application
22:44 GuShH a lathe or a mill requires a tapered roller bearing, they used to have massive split brass bushings before that
22:45 GuShH however, on the cheapest mini-lathes (smaller than bench lathes) they use regular ball bearings...
22:45 GuShH which is why some people have converted them and they even sell the kits (they also come with plastic gears and whatnot) so there's a clear difference between those two types of small lathes right away
22:46 GuShH I'm not sure about small commercial mills, I've only ever seen one basic model
22:46 GuShH (from china)
22:46 GuShH Also I think there are several manufacturers of tapered bearings in China alone
22:47 GuShH They can make both high grade and low grade bearings in general, I'm just wondering which type these lathes comes with heh
22:49 GuShH And by the way it's marketed to be a sealed pair of bearings, but that's not quite true...
22:52 robotustra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4qB6n1cm04
23:13 GuShH robotustra: teheheee
23:13 GuShH that's good eh? good turning eh.
23:37 robotustra 150 hp