#robotics Logs
Mar 12 2013
#robotics Calendar
00:31 Lola8088
00:33 rue_house I only get binary
00:33 rue_house 0x0005
00:33 Lola8088
00:34 theBear stop that, i don't need little squars with 3 0's and a 3
00:34 Jak_o_Shadows1 I get square boxes, with circles in em
00:35 theBear i call the boxes sqaures, and the circles 0's
00:35 Jak_o_Shadows1 why did i say square boxes? ATM Machine
00:36 theBear :)
00:36 theBear how long did this person hang around here to just say 3 boxes ?
00:46 Rif ok home to fix op amp
00:47 Rif need to move ground to about -2v, easy?
00:47 rue_house rif look up 'charge pump'
00:51 theBear actually, they might be tiny tiny 5's, kinda hard to tell at this resolution
01:00 MrCurious just ordered a second OWI arm for my robot
01:22 RifRaf !thislog
01:22 RifRaf !thislog
01:22 tobbor This one: http://rueshouse.dyndns.org:82/~ircjunk/irclogs/html/%23robotics-2013-03-12.html
01:23 RifRaf charge pump eh
01:24 Jak_o_Shadows1 From the wikipedia description, it seems like you could do it with some caps and a 555, but I gather it's better buying speciic chips?
01:25 RifRaf omg, this was meant to be easy, soom i'll just be happy with 200mV max on the adc
01:42 theBear my way was easy, say 3 diodes and a cap, 1.8v
01:43 RifRaf yes i want your way
01:43 theBear :)
01:43 RifRaf how long ago did you say it?
01:43 theBear i dunno, 24hoursish
01:43 RifRaf or do you have a schematic
01:43 theBear i didn't go into details
01:43 RifRaf ok will search
01:43 RifRaf wanna elaborate?
01:44 theBear i'd just kinda, take the battery minus, 3 diodes in series, paralleled to a single cap, diodes pointing down (conducting), and err, connect the top end of that to whatever used to connect to the battery -... this all assumes you got enough voltage for your reg to still work with that much 'missing'
01:44 RifRaf am watching this but goes for like an hour http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7b5YZENvjY
01:44 RifRaf and is a crazy aussie
01:45 theBear that's one of the many reasons i refuse to look at technical information in video form... it's just a waste of breaths, and you only got so many before you die
01:46 RifRaf theBear i really only need to go about -1V from this reading i got this morn, maybe just 2 diodes
01:46 Guest63474 no breath? u dead!
01:46 theBear gush gets it
01:47 Guest63474 theBear: bastard agencies
01:47 theBear cool, go 2 diodes
01:47 theBear heh, bastard squad
01:47 Guest63474 they all lie when you ask if they've got XYZ in stock, they say "they're coming in next week"
01:47 Guest63474 bullshit they are
01:47 theBear what's wrong with your face ? it looks all generic and covered in numbers
01:47 Guest63474 they just want upfront cash and then they'll figure out a reason not to give it back to you once they fail to get the bike
01:48 Guest63474 failed to auth
01:48 Guest63474 like I'm failing to <anything> lately
01:48 theBear oh, bike, you gotta be more scary like me
01:48 Guest63474 how so?
01:48 RifRaf theBear what kinda cap do i want, i remeber you saying a big one from memory
01:49 Guest63474 I just need this thing to move around in town, but they're out of stock and the few places selling it are asking a fortune
01:49 theBear cos then they don't dare consider being sneaky, i can't even get mugged with a walking stick these days, and i've tried, i miss the glory of battle
01:49 Guest63474 speaking of which
01:49 Guest63474 I picked one of those bike locks a few minutes ago
01:49 Guest63474 the ones with the tube-kinda key
01:49 Guest63474 I would've thought they were harder to pick
01:50 theBear RifRaf, yeah, i dunno, somewhere from few hundred to few thousand ufs, whatever you got handy, oh, you aint pulling HUGE power are yer ? the diodes will dissipate total current * .6v each
01:50 Guest63474 apply tension, press on each pin until it locks down, repeat until the barrel turns....
01:50 Guest63474 they sell expensive "mega ultra super safe" chains with the same friggin locks
01:50 theBear mmm, some easier than others, but err, that's pretty bad, shouldn't have that much play
01:51 Guest63474 I couldn't believe how easy it was so I went to youtube.... turns out it IS that easy
01:51 Guest63474 here's the same type of lock mechanism http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mVstL-ENyRE
01:51 theBear i aint watching a video
01:51 Guest63474 you ain't? it's not a tutorial.
01:52 RifRaf lol
01:52 theBear i understood what you said, i'm a lock picker from the 80s... i don't need a video
01:52 Guest63474 pffffft
01:52 Guest63474 theBear: I wanted to see if you could catch one of the sneaky steps he did
01:52 theBear meh, my hands are pure sneaky, i don't need eyes for sneak
01:52 Guest63474 I lost tension and the pins popped right back, couldn't place the indexed key back on because I had rolled the barrel, so I had to sand one of the keys down
01:53 Guest63474 which made me wonder... if someone tries to pick it, fails and leaves.... you can't lock or unlock it anymore with the key
01:53 Guest63474 you need to sand down the index tab to reset it!
01:54 theBear hmmm, interesting
01:54 Guest63474 anyway, I'll need a big manly lock and a big manly chain, none of these commercial products will keep you safe.
01:55 theBear it's a great conversation started having a huge old steel chain hanging over yer shoulder
01:55 Guest63474 If I was able to figure it out without the right tools or training, there's no doubt thieves out there are quite used to these locks
01:55 RifRaf puck i just embedded an atmega8 dip into my arm
01:55 theBear heh, bike thieves aren't the smart ones, they're opportunistic
01:55 theBear RifRaf, heh, better faster stronger
01:55 Guest63474 well most are dipshits
01:55 RifRaf like the pins were upto the fat parts, ouch\
01:55 Guest63474 the way they take your bike here is on a red light
01:55 theBear shananananana
01:56 theBear yeah, good luck to them, maybe i should move there
01:56 RifRaf was just looking for diode and it was on the floor
01:56 RifRaf got 28 bleeding holes
01:56 Guest63474 usually another bike comes in, two dipshits on it, they point guns at you, they make you give them the alarm dongles and then they kick you out of the bike... and it's gone
01:56 RifRaf i dunno htf that happened
01:56 Guest63474 I'm on a bike club and I've heard way too many stories like that
01:56 Guest63474 I would consider carrying...
01:57 theBear hmm, guns is a bit trickier.... i've often considered, somewhere the average criminal has guns i think i'd have to have one or two on me... fortunately here you gotta be real angry to even consider a gun, so if anyone is gonner have it, it's usually me
01:57 RifRaf ok back to searching for diode.. but need a photo of this injury
01:58 Guest63474 theBear: I could get a "disposable" one, they ain't cheap though.
01:58 theBear cheaper if you know where to get them, but shooting in public is never likely to end well for you
01:58 Guest63474 Well, not these days
01:59 Guest63474 Lots of things to trace you back
01:59 theBear you gotta remember that most criminals are too scared to use them, specially if you already poiting one at them
01:59 Guest63474 these are too high to even care
01:59 Guest63474 they'll pop a warning shot then they'll shoot you if you don't give them the bike
01:59 theBear yeah well, i find a lot of err, conflict resolution is easier when you honestly don't care yourself, but of course it takes losing a lot to achieve that
01:59 Guest63474 so I would consider a gps tracker (not lojack, just gsm)
02:00 Guest63474 I've also considered a smoke grenade with a remote trigger, don't laugh... it could work.
02:00 Guest63474 if the bike starts smoking and the engine cuts off (part of the alarm system) they may just leave it there.
02:00 theBear i can still laugh tho :) that's the roadrunner grade shit
02:00 Guest63474 pffft
02:01 Guest63474 all alarms I'm aware of have an engine cut off
02:01 Guest63474 why not include a smoke flare.
02:01 RifRaf theBear i have 2 x IN4004 and a 2200uF 16v cap, sound ok
02:01 theBear hey, most of the ideas in roadrunner were solid, if that crazy fox would just try the same thing twice he woulda got that stupid chicken
02:01 theBear RifRaf, totally dude !
02:01 est63474 seriously thinks the smoke + no engine = you get the bike
02:01 theBear just remember it sees the total current
02:01 Guest63474 you know, otherwise the gps tracker would lead you to them.. and that's not good, for them.
02:02 RifRaf feel like i've been fishhooked
02:02 theBear heh, i aint been fishhooked for years
02:02 Guest63474 is that a thing?
02:02 theBear wanna try that thing one day... keefie i used to live with did it... stick a bunch of un-barbed hooks thru yer back parts then hang off something
02:03 Guest63474 can you enlarge the dong with that?
02:03 theBear i dunno, i don't think about those things... any bigger and EVERYONE would be too scared to go near it :)
02:03 Guest63474 lol
02:04 Guest63474 the tripod bear
02:07 Guest63474 theBear: biggest problem so far is finding a new one or used in mint condition and then transporting it
02:07 Guest63474 the paperwork I can handle...
02:07 RifRaf Guest63474 yes fishhooked is a thing that happens when you fish enough, i get myself 1 or twice a year, and is not fun
02:07 Guest63474 I looked them up today and the prices went up already, I was right sadly
02:07 Guest63474 RifRaf: I used to fish on a daily basis
02:08 RifRaf taking a picture of my elbow is almost impossible
02:08 Guest63474 Maybe I've got my finger hooked, but slightly
02:08 Guest63474 otherwise I would do it on purpose, stick a hook on each finger just to upset someone
02:08 RifRaf heh i have been pinned in my car a few times
02:09 Guest63474 I once heard of a horror story that made me always double check my hooks.
02:09 RifRaf reaching into the back seat and then hooked by one of several rods, thats awkward, you have to stop driving and by that time they are pretty embedded
02:09 RifRaf now i always take hooks off after fishing
02:09 Guest63474 It involved a kid, his back and a line with 4 hooks about to get casted at sea.
02:09 RifRaf have bad visions of getting one in the eye
02:09 Guest63474 I miss fly fishing
02:10 Guest63474 can't really do it over here, must travel at least 800KMs for proper flyfishing
02:10 RifRaf i am still learning the art, i should be up there trout fishing everyweekend
02:10 RifRaf for some silly reason i am trying to make robots again though
02:10 Guest63474 got two big trouts the first time I tried it
02:10 Guest63474 we were trolling though
02:10 est63474 s
02:10 RifRaf Guest63474 i got a 50cm and a 54cm this season, big rainbow and big brown
02:11 Guest63474 at least we got to eat 'em
02:11 Guest63474 of course they charge you for everything you catch...
02:11 RifRaf i loved every bite, and with 9lb of fresh trout a few friends ate well also
02:11 RifRaf wtf?
02:11 RifRaf on a fish farm or something?
02:12 Guest63474 No, a lake
02:12 RifRaf wow, i pay a licence fee, about 135 for 3 years
02:12 Guest63474 I had to rent the equipment, the boat... AND pay for what I just fished.
02:12 Guest63474 THEN I had to rent a place to bbq it.
02:12 Guest63474 it / them
02:12 RifRaf and as long as i keep to the limits they are mine, and hard to catch the limits these days
02:13 theBear you should always remove your rigs when you aint fishing, and they should always be coupled to the end of the actual line for easy removal/attachment
02:14 RifRaf theBear yeah i know, but with the stationwagon is so easy too keep them on when you know you will be fishing again at the next stop
02:15 RifRaf i don't anymore though, thanks to about 4 hookups, slow learner
02:15 RifRaf plus the roof lining has come off on a few cars not to mention the holes in seats
02:15 Guest63474 "Now I see with my ears"
02:15 Guest63474 At least cars are cheap over there
02:17 RifRaf but expensive to keep
02:17 Guest63474 I doubt they're as expensive to keep as they are over here!!
02:18 RifRaf just paid like $1100 for rego for the year, $1.55 a liter for feul and 100km is a short trip
02:18 Guest63474 import restrictions means no spares, taxes are up the roof
02:18 Guest63474 fuel ain't cheap, neither is the insurrance
02:19 Guest63474 I would pay for this bike the same I would've paid for a car 4 years ago
02:19 Guest63474 Which is to say there's no way I can have a car now adays in this country
02:19 RifRaf yep, it would be impossable to have a car for me if i did not work full time
02:20 Guest63474 And I've been saving like a jew, just to see the prices go up, up, up.
02:20 theBear wtf ? just watched monkey boy on the camera leave a bag at the front door and leave.... hmmmmmmmm....
02:20 theBear wtf is it with everyone saying jew this month ?
02:20 Guest63474 jews are known for their money wisdom :p
02:20 theBear and surely being from hungary isn't enough to explain that creep dude being such a creep
02:20 est63474 bl
02:21 theBear even when he's being nice he's an asshole....
02:21 Guest63474 You just described me, at least that's how people see me!
02:21 Guest63474 I should blow it on a hooker, drugs and a gun to end it all. You should come by!
02:21 theBear meh, you're transparent to someone with the right eyes, others just don't know what overly cheeky looks like... this guy is just inherantly a dick
02:22 theBear sounds like fun
02:22 Guest63474 After all it's friggin' pointless
02:22 theBear it is, but that's the human condition
02:22 theBear it all gets a lot less serious if you can convince yerself to be a metaphysical nihilist
02:22 Guest63474 I'm going to cry myself to sleep now
02:23 est63474 sits on RifRaf's couch and gets his arse ho
02:23 theBear times like this it'd be kinda good to still have a camera or portion of pointing at the carpark... monkey boy been such a weird asshole recently i wouldn't wanna open the door to find him watching from the carpark...
02:23 Guest63474 you should produce the adventures of monkey boy
02:24 Guest63474 starring monkey boy and yo momma
02:24 theBear they wouldn't be very interesting, and they'll probly end with him bleeding in the street somewhere till he dies
02:24 Guest63474 cheesy music
02:24 Guest63474 = win
02:24 theBear jo mamma
02:24 theBear JO MAMMA
02:24 Guest63474 lol
02:24 Guest63474 THE DEATH OF MONKEY BOY, MONKEY BOY RESURRECTION, ZOMBIE MONKEY BOY
02:24 Guest63474 We've got a full franchise!
02:24 theBear ahh, a message...
02:24 theBear not from him :(
02:25 Guest63474 oh shit my left leg hurts like hell
02:25 Guest63474 blood clot?
02:25 Guest63474 that's bad.
02:26 RifRaf check for embedded avrs
02:26 theBear heh
02:26 Guest63474 doubt it's a muslce
02:27 RifRaf i had those feeling the other week, lumps and stuff, i put it down to getting older
02:27 RifRaf and kept going and they had gone away, if you dwell on it it will be watever you want it to become
02:28 RifRaf go for a walk
02:28 theBear look at a lake
02:28 Guest63474 fart walk?
02:28 RifRaf fart walks are funny
02:28 theBear i wonder... maybe it's a bomb or a animals head
02:29 Guest63474 maybe it's booze
02:29 RifRaf just look out for the shart
02:29 theBear possible, unlikely from a useless ass taht hasn't had his own place to live for a couple years now, and only ever abuses me or asks to borrow tools these days
02:29 Guest63474 what if monkey boy is his son?
02:29 Guest63474 SONS DO THAT
02:30 theBear what ? my son ? don't be silly, i've dodged that bullet several times
02:30 RifRaf maybe its a food drop
02:30 Guest63474 Brought to you by CoatHanger(tm)
02:30 RifRaf did you think to have a look?
02:31 theBear once again, why would an ass like that do that, and why would he see the window open and not even think about knocking, usually the ass knocks and knocks and tries the back doors and windows and knocks some more
02:31 Guest63474 maybe he de-assed himself
02:31 Guest63474 If he's not around, I'd take a look
02:32 Guest63474 Hopefully it's cigarettes, booze and a gun
02:32 theBear meh, when i finish my coffee
02:32 Guest63474 I'm this close to going on a killing spree with this back pain and all the crap I have to put up with :(
02:33 Guest63474 I should either start living more, or dying more.
02:33 theBear my god tracey jordan looks a lot like oprah with a beige dress-suit and curly wig
02:34 Guest63474 lol
02:34 Guest63474 that's so racist!
02:34 theBear seriously, it's uncanny
02:34 theBear it is ? how ?
02:34 Guest63474 "all blacks look the same"
02:34 theBear nah, just him and oprah
02:34 Guest63474 I get what you mean, I'm just in a dark zone
02:35 theBear lol, like the bronx ?
02:35 Guest63474 more like the white house
02:35 theBear heh
02:35 Guest63474 what do you guys have for a whitehouse over there in AU?
02:35 Guest63474 here we have a PINK house
02:35 Guest63474 go figure
02:35 Guest63474 it's literally pink.
02:35 theBear erm, we got a few parliament houses, they're mostly between off white and stone
02:36 theBear i never been to the big one
02:36 RifRaf hrm i have 12V coming into these diodes and caps and measuring 12.2V with the cap
02:36 Guest63474 I don't think they would let me into one of those
02:37 RifRaf 11.59 without the cap, will try it the other way
02:37 theBear what huh ? you aint hooking up diodes to 12v are you ? that would be bad
02:37 RifRaf oh woops
02:37 theBear they gotta have a load aka virtual resistor in series
02:38 theBear it's a shunt regulatoe
02:38 fRaf turns off power su
02:38 theBear regulator
02:38 est63474 sl
02:38 Guest63474 john the regulator
02:38 Guest63474 put him in an alternator
02:39 Guest63474 take him up to the ...? ran out of ideas.
02:39 RifRaf had the opamp disconected till i find the magic - voltage
02:40 RifRaf there is voltage drop voltage drop across the diodes, the cap is in paralell with the 2 series diodes
02:41 RifRaf but the cap seems to turn the drop into a gain somehow, either way around
02:41 theBear you sure the diodes are the right way up ? they shoulda been smoking connected to 12v like that
02:41 theBear it's like a led without a resistor that way
02:41 RifRaf no it was open circiut
02:42 theBear so they were upside down ?
02:42 RifRaf just um maybe, i'll reverse them, strip is going to _
02:42 RifRaf not -, but ground
02:43 theBear stripe should be pointing down, not to gnd, i said conducting
02:44 RifRaf my mistake
02:44 RifRaf ok i get 0V without cap now and 12.2v with cap
02:46 RifRaf will try find a schem, am not understanding it right maybe
02:48 theBear huh what ? it should be the same with or without a cap assuming a constant load
02:50 theBear http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/DataBook1/DataBook1-1-21_files/image001.gif ... rs is your existing circuit, and normal diodes go backwards to zeners
02:51 RifRaf ok so hook it up to the lm324 as a load?
02:51 Jak_o_Shadows1 I always forget which way to put diodes in, in real life. I get the symbols, but not the ral.
02:51 Jak_o_Shadows1 real*
02:51 theBear what ? you ENTIRE existing circuit becomes rs, the + and - marked on that schem are your battery
02:52 theBear Jak_o_Shadows1, they point the way you want them to conduct, so the | end conducts when it is lower than the arrow end, aka they conduct in the direction of the arrow
02:53 RifRaf well they are not cunducted any more now
02:53 Jak_o_Shadows1 No, i get the arrows, I don't get the stripe (for diodes), or the flag(for LEDs)
02:53 theBear huh ? the stripe is attached to the arrow
02:53 RifRaf i need the stripe to negative battery terminal i think
02:53 Jak_o_Shadows1 No, like the stripe on the physical LED
02:54 Jak_o_Shadows1 diode*
02:54 theBear what the fuck ? it's a backpack full of clothes with an abusive message on top
02:54 theBear Jak_o_Shadows1, i ignore the flat edge, it changes between brands anyway
02:55 RifRaf weird theBear
02:55 theBear RifRaf, they wanna point at the most negative point, which in this case is the battery -
02:55 theBear i gotta find some shoes and a shirt... gotta go visit some doctor
02:55 RifRaf yes, so now measure 12.2V at battery, and 11.6V at lm324
02:56 theBear that sounds more sensible
02:56 RifRaf without the cap, will add the cap now
02:56 theBear that's a single diode ?
02:56 RifRaf 2
02:56 RifRaf now back to 12.2v after the diodes
02:57 theBear if it's two the current is probly too low, is this the whole circuit or a single comparator for a test ?
02:57 theBear what ? the cap can't conduct
02:57 RifRaf no it is conducting
02:57 theBear but, it can't, it's a cap, unless the load is so ridiculously low it's taking 10 minutes to charge
02:58 Jak_o_Shadows1 OWWWWW, MY EYEEEEEE, I GOT HIT BY A FLYING BIT OF CAPACITOR
02:58 RifRaf either way around, avter the cap i get 12.2v
02:58 Jak_o_Shadows1 I know somebody who that happened to. Bloody idiot.
02:58 RifRaf revenge of the components day
02:58 RifRaf an avr attacked me violently before
02:59 theBear what is the load ?
02:59 theBear aka rs
02:59 Jak_o_Shadows1 I also know somebody who got a nasty burn off a pic because he put it in backwards.
02:59 Jak_o_Shadows1 Hands it to me, cause it's not working: "I think it's in backwards, the chip is hot". "Friend puts whole of thumb on it"
02:59 RifRaf there is no load apart from the lm324
03:00 theBear that's not gonna be much good, that's a few mA
03:00 theBear if yer just testing use maybe few hundred r or 1k, if you wanna be accurate use something that will represent the current draw of the intended actual circuit
03:00 RifRaf so need to add a resistor
03:01 theBear single opamp is like 20mA, it's hardly a load
03:01 RifRaf all i wanna run is this opamp to give me a gain on this small input voltage
03:01 RifRaf i think
03:02 RifRaf i keep forgeting what it is i am trying to do
03:03 theBear isn't the opamp gonna be connected to a great big circuit with a micro and regulator and other stuff ?
03:03 RifRaf use avr adc and provide a usefull voltage, and be able to see very small voltages, can i set the adc to like a 200mV range?
03:04 theBear i dunno, i asked you last night and you never responded
03:04 RifRaf nope, it has its regulated 5v supply on the other side of the breadboard
03:04 RifRaf a separate regulator is giving the opamp 12v
03:04 theBear but, the whole idea is for this to work off a battery, you won't have an extra supply, if you did you could just use an extra battery fro a negative rail
03:05 theBear and whatever you do has to be in series with the other circuit/gnd or it won't be negative
03:05 RifRaf yeah was hoping to use the unregulated battery voltage to give the opamp more than 5v, but it should run fine on 5v
03:05 theBear it'll be 5v + 1.2v
03:06 RifRaf oh yes, measuring the current sense resistor, that goes into the opamp input, using the other end of the diodes as ground?
03:07 RifRaf its not a load though is it
03:07 RifRaf measuring a voltage across a load, that ranges from 0.1mV to about 200mV
03:08 theBear umm what ? your ENTIRE existing circuit is the load, aka RS in that mini schem i pasted, if you imagine the zener in that diagram is a short, you have your existing circuit, you are inserting the diodes/cap in series with the - from the battery
03:09 RifRaf yes thats how it is, the diodes are in paralell with the cap though correct?
03:09 theBear yeah, the cap is just a filter, like how you put one across a battery or bridge output or 78xx
03:09 theBear gnd stays gnd, the battery - stops being gnd tho
03:10 theBear and becomes -1.2v
03:10 RifRaf okj will try measure that
03:10 RifRaf man this cap is messing with me
03:11 RifRaf it better without it, at least i get a voltage drop
03:11 theBear it all works as soon as you have maybe 100mA or more travelling thru the whole circuit
03:11 theBear if the cap is huge and the current is tiny, it will take 'some time' for the cap to charge
03:12 RifRaf oh man, i didnot even have + connected to the opamp
03:13 RifRaf ok if _ of lm324 is ground, i measure 11V between ground and positive, and -1.15V beween 'ground' and supply negative
03:13 RifRaf with no cap
03:14 RifRaf theBear the caps blew off my avrs voltage regulaor, (not this circiut) , soldered them back on and they blew off again, so i left them off
03:14 theBear you need something between gnd and +v to make the diodes create 1.2vish... blew off ? wtf are you doing ?
03:15 RifRaf ok i'll add the cap back
03:15 RifRaf _ of cap to battery negative still?
03:16 theBear yeah
03:16 RifRaf wow it took a while to charge up that time
03:17 theBear that's r-c constant... i suppose you coudl say to yourself if the load is that small, you can get away with a smaller cap
03:17 theBear gotta go... l8r
03:17 RifRaf ok thanks heaps
03:17 RifRaf am getting somewhere now
03:48 fRaf tried to remember how eagle works to draw a simple sch
04:40 RifRaf k am thinking since i have 5V and the lm324 runs from 3V, will try run it from -1.1V to 3.9V with theBears diode setup
04:40 RifRaf the input to the opamp is between 0v and 200mV
04:41 RifRaf oh and now i can only output upto about 3V for the adc :/ so it scales to lower max adc voltages doesn't it?
04:56 Jak_o_Shadows Just tested a big of wire for a foam cutter
04:56 RifRaf clean cut?
04:57 Jak_o_Shadows 12V, 3A, over about 5 inches of fine wire (from the spring of a pen).
04:57 Jak_o_Shadows yes.
04:57 Jak_o_Shadows Now I just need to make it hand-held, and to auto-tension it, as it expands when heated
04:58 RifRaf using foam for robot parts?
04:58 Jak_o_Shadows I suppose I should source a couple of plugs, so I can use the same power supply with the band-saw type cutter, and the hand-held
04:58 Jak_o_Shadows RifRaf: Possibly, but definitely gonna cut some aerofoils
04:59 RifRaf we use this stuff at work called foamex, is a compressed foam, it has possibilities, far lighter than acrylic
04:59 RifRaf can route it pretty cleanly, but i reckon a decent foam cutter would do it too
05:02 Jak_o_Shadows Because I grabbed it from a spring, it's a bit curved, but proper tension would probably fix that
05:02 Jak_o_Shadows by curved, I mean loopy
05:05 Jak_o_Shadows Also, I need lighting in the shed. During the day, if i'm free, it's too hot, but at night, the spotlight i've got in there is dangerous, I go to adjust it and burn my hand
05:08 Jak_o_Shadows Hmm, would fibreglass, such as that from camping poles, withstand heat?
06:49 theBear being me sucks, shouldn't drinking a bottle of wine in an hour make you at least a little bit not sober ?
06:49 zap0 depends on what else you've consumed
06:49 theBear i haven't eaten for a day, does that help ?
06:50 theBear i had some painkillers
06:51 theBear i take a bunch more, that might help
08:59 theBear gussh, on that same note, that ugly white girl whose character is called jenna looks amazingly generic in blackface and any kind of tight suit/clothing
09:02 rue_house !time
09:04 theBear not time, or untime is what the ancient people called it
09:04 theBear now imagine that future you made a pie and travelled back in time to give it to ancient you, but the ingredients didn't exist yet !
09:05 theBear some cultures referred to it as a time before time
09:11 rue_house !time
09:11 tobbor My watch says its 06:59AM Tue Mar 12 2013
09:11 theBear hi tobbor !
09:11 theBear tobbor, like, totally tell us about the project !
09:11 rue_house I dont know why he keeps dropping out
09:11 rue_house there are no errors in the logs
09:11 rue_house !thislog
09:11 tobbor This one: http://rueshouse.dyndns.org:82/~ircjunk/irclogs/html/%23robotics-2013-03-12.html
09:12 theBear rue_house, maybe he's brain damaged?
09:12 theBear are those real tobbor logs ? i thought they were 100% irc
09:13 rue_house they are
09:13 rue_house I'm looking when tobbor dropped out
09:13 theBear oh i see, by dropped out you mean left the channel/network, not just stopped thinking
09:14 rue_house just this channel actually
14:26 RifRaf theBear have the 2 didoes and cap in paralell attached to battery negative, the other end is now the new ground, so the lm324 gets 11V from the 12V supply
14:27 RifRaf the current sense resistor output goes to the opamp input and the new ground, so it works the same as before
14:28 RifRaf if i put cerrent sense - to battery ground instead of the new ground then the input sees no voltage at all from it
14:28 RifRaf hopefully i am missing something
14:31 Guest63474 RifRaf: show me a schematic
14:34 RifRaf http://imagebin.org/250007
14:34 RifRaf is the best i can do, relearning eagle
14:35 RifRaf at the moment all that does is drop 1.1V from the battery voltage
14:40 RifRaf if i put a multimeter - to new ground, multimeter + to battery negative i get -1.15V, but how to use this is my problem
14:43 RifRaf and battery in schem is 7.2V cause that what i'll use eventually but is for now a regulated 12v supply
14:47 RifRaf ok i have an idea, i need the lm324 to measure 12V across the power pins, but it needs to think its getting +10.9V and -1.1V
14:53 theBear the battery - isn't a ground anymore, it's a - rail, you do everything relating to the circuit ground
14:54 theBear i can't sleep, life is an unending nightmare :(
14:54 RifRaf nothing works for me
14:55 RifRaf sorry about your eternal nightmare
14:55 theBear it makes more sense if you draw the psu bit seperate
14:55 RifRaf have you seen the machinist?
14:55 theBear and your last statement (re: the circuit) is quite right
14:55 RifRaf yes but it didn't work
14:55 theBear yeah, we discussed it the other day when you told me about real steel... not bad, but the continuity and similar factors were terrible
14:56 theBear what does happen ?
14:56 RifRaf yeah i don't get the story, but maybe it makes more sense when you have not slept for a year
14:56 theBear wait, you can't have an led across 12v without a resistor
14:56 theBear hehe
14:57 theBear a little, i had to watch it a few times to get it, but i was working 100+hours a week at that stage, so err, i didn't get much sleep
14:57 RifRaf the opamp output goes to like 10.8V as soon as i take out the - from sense resistor
14:57 theBear and err, that opamp circuit looks wrong
14:58 theBear that's a noninverting with feedback and input on +
14:58 RifRaf and no matter where i stick it it stays that way, when the grounds are common i get output of 3.4mV with no power to sense resistor
14:58 RifRaf is that wrong?
14:59 theBear hangon, what you mean - of sense resistor ? the gnd end ? that makes it a led conducting to v+
14:59 RifRaf i thought i needed non inverting, and am giving it a positive input, i could be way wrong though
14:59 theBear i gotta check default opamp schematics, but it looks a lot like a positive feedback loop to me
14:59 RifRaf it works though apart from near 0V
15:00 RifRaf the results were logical and almost linear once it turned on or watever it does
15:00 theBear http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/circuits/opamp_non_inverting/op-amp_basic_non_inv.gif
15:00 theBear you sure you haven't swapped the opamp input pins ?
15:01 theBear it works ? in that case i guess your - rail isn't low enough, or do you mean the old circuit without a negative rail worked like that ?
15:01 RifRaf oh something is wrong yes, let me put glasses on
15:01 theBear but i can't see that circuit ever working
15:01 theBear you got positive feedback around the opamp
15:02 RifRaf yes the old circiut is the only working one, with no negative rail
15:02 theBear did the old circuit have the opamp with the feedback like that ? it just looks like it couldn't possibly work
15:02 RifRaf yes me schematic is wrong, its like the one you posted
15:02 RifRaf will fix that now
15:02 theBear do that, it hurts my head too much like thi
15:02 theBear s
15:04 RifRaf http://imagebin.org/250013
15:04 RifRaf it was a port schem last night, sorry
15:04 theBear awesinebess
15:04 theBear err, awesomeness
15:05 theBear and the top left should be 7.2v/vcc and v-, not gnd, but i assume that's how your test circuit is wired ?
15:06 theBear and that all gnds are common
15:07 RifRaf ok yes will check that too now
15:08 theBear also check the test circuit is like the new schem, not the old, cos that'll make a world of difference
15:09 theBear and this is taking days, i'm gonna look at a avr datasheet
15:10 RifRaf everything takes me days :/
15:10 RifRaf have to get ready for work now, it always gets in the way
15:12 RifRaf maybe i should use a voltage divider with resistors
15:14 Guest63474 RifRaf: what the hell are you trying to accomplish with this?
15:15 Guest63474 trying to buffer and sample the voltage of a battery?
15:15 Guest63474 that layour makes little sense right now
15:15 Guest63474 layout*
15:15 RifRaf maying a current meter, or that was the idea
15:16 theBear shitballs, where do you find the specs of an avr, doesn't seem to be in the 331 page datasheet
15:16 Guest63474 that's... not quite going to work
15:16 Guest63474 RifRaf: my kit does a similar thing, it's on jameco
15:16 est63474 sighs at all the emails he's been getting abou
15:16 theBear it should work fine, it's just making a quick and dirty minus rail, but if i can find the specs on the aref pin i think we can shortcut all this bullshit
15:16 ganzuul Damn you Bayes, you think you're so hot.
15:16 Guest63474 what you want is an error amplifier with feedback from the shunt resistor
15:17 theBear that's how god punishes people for ignoring my questions just cos they don't understand them
15:17 Guest63474 of course if he just has a times 0.01 resistor as a shunt he would have to amplify by 100
15:17 theBear he wants a multiplying amplifier with input from the shunt, but right now i see no reason you can't run the AREF pin down to maybe 1v
15:17 Guest63474 that's when biasing plays a role and messes up your results
15:18 RifRaf my gain is about 81 at moment
15:18 RifRaf for higher currents, just does not like low ones
15:18 Guest63474 theBear: usually you then amplify to whatever factor is required to reach maximum adc input voltage
15:18 Guest63474 to obtain full range
15:18 RifRaf theBear yes!! thats what i asked 5 days ago, can the avr use 1V as adc reference
15:18 theBear Guest63474, yeah, but if the aref works below 2v like the datasheet distantly implies, you don't need any gain at all, skip the opamp and the silly minus rail
15:19 Guest63474 so if your output was 0-1v and the adc was set to 2.5v tops, you'd amplify by 2.5
15:19 RifRaf then i will just be happy only getting 20% resolution
15:19 theBear RifRaf, you didn't use the right words, and i asked you about 5 times over 2 days but y ou never answered
15:19 Guest63474 theBear: you could use the opamp as a voltage follower in that case :p
15:19 theBear Guest63474, screw the opamp, it's unneeded
15:19 theBear IF you can run the aref that low
15:19 Guest63474 depends on what he's sampling
15:19 Guest63474 if it's high impedance, you'd need it
15:20 theBear a .01r shunt isn't high impedance
15:20 Guest63474 my balls are
15:20 Guest63474 (is that good or bad?)
15:20 theBear you should have that seen too
15:20 theBear to
15:20 Guest63474 :p
15:20 theBear it seems very strange how little 'traditonal' max/nominal specs are on the datasheet
15:21 Guest63474 they've been arduinized
15:21 RifRaf Guest63474 my output from shunt is between 0mV and 200mV (thats for 20A), but i would like to do most reading between 0mV and 50mV, don't need over 5A
15:21 theBear it's even got graphs of adc input current (aka inverse impedance) but nothing about aref
15:21 theBear this is the atmega8 331 page full datasheet, it's older than stupidduinos
15:21 Guest63474 you either use good amplification with little biasing or you increase your shunt and live with it
15:21 RifRaf increase my shunt?
15:21 theBear i say experiment with or look into stupid low arefs
15:21 Guest63474 the value
15:21 RifRaf that will work?
15:21 Guest63474 unless you don't mind using 10% or whatever of the available resolution
15:22 theBear it'll get silly even with the inbuilt 2.5-ish volt ref
15:22 Guest63474 RifRaf: I don't even know what you're doing, this is all basic
15:22 RifRaf well they only had the one value at jaycar, but i'll just use normal resistors
15:22 theBear 1r shunt = 1v/amp
15:22 theBear but that means 5v/5amp
15:22 Guest63474 0.1 is my suggestion
15:22 Guest63474 the drop is meh
15:22 RifRaf ok will pick up some 1R and 0.1R today
15:22 Guest63474 you need to account for voltage drop and power dissipation on the shunt
15:22 Guest63474 how much is too much
15:23 Guest63474 can we drop 1v at 10A and live with the dissipated power across the resistor?
15:23 theBear "The data sheet table headed "ADC characteristics" states that the minimum value of AREF (Vref) is 1.0 V"
15:23 Guest63474 you need to remember that the temperature will make your shunt vary
15:23 theBear that's what sparkfun forum says
15:23 Guest63474 unless it's a very fancy, expensive shunt.
15:24 RifRaf this was a stable air resistor they called it 0.01R
15:24 theBear it's a copper bar 'resistor'
15:24 RifRaf http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=RR3420
15:24 RifRaf yeah
15:24 theBear like in a meter gush
15:24 Guest63474 it's not really copper
15:24 Guest63474 if you want to be pedantic
15:24 theBear you sure ?
15:24 Guest63474 me so sure
15:25 Guest63474 it has copper, in it's composition though
15:25 theBear all the ones i seen in meters look a LOT like copper
15:25 theBear lol, oxygen too ? <grin>
15:25 Guest63474 they look a lot lighter than actual copper
15:25 Guest63474 I can't recall the alloy
15:25 theBear i usually looked in pretty cheap meters, and they got big notches where they been tuned/'trimmed', i also can't see red that good
15:25 Guest63474 it has a better tempco
15:26 theBear tho that one with no notches, even .01r does sound a little high for pure copper that thick
15:26 Guest63474 For all we know they ARE using regular copper on cheapies
15:26 Guest63474 you'd have to trim it by using a 1A or higher constant current source, and patience.
15:26 Guest63474 -_-
15:26 theBear that's cool, say it's 2.5mm^2 copper, lets guess .01r @ 10a fused in a meter, that's not much temp rise
15:26 Guest63474 except the fuses are often a LIE
15:27 theBear define lie
15:27 Guest63474 specially when it comes to transients, they don't populate the supressors for cost reasons thinking the fuse is "good enough"
15:27 Guest63474 then there's the improper type of fuse (slow vs fast)
15:27 theBear heh, you are in a bad mood this week :) me too
15:27 Guest63474 and user error (10A fuse on 1A socket)
15:27 Guest63474 I want to rip someone's eyes out with a frozen chicken leg.
15:27 theBear yeah, but i'm talking about me here, they always fast or superfast fuses of the right rating
15:28 theBear you could always do my trick, walk around trying to get a mugging attempt
15:28 theBear sounds like it's easier where you live too
15:28 Guest63474 If I had a piece with no serial...
15:28 Guest63474 doo be do be do be dooo
15:29 theBear guns are no fun, it's only satisfying to beat people manually, or maybe with a lump of wood or knuckles sometimes
15:29 Guest63474 mhhh
15:29 Guest63474 can we have nails on the wood?
15:29 Guest63474 I would use the one from the punctured tyre
15:29 Guest63474 but it's still in there
15:30 Guest63474 haven't had the time or extra cash to get it fixed
15:30 Guest63474 theBear: got any experience with mylar sheets?
15:30 theBear i'm not gonna say you can't, but i am gonna say that i prefer more blunt trauma than just putting holes in people
15:30 Guest63474 100 microns or less
15:30 theBear err, i doubt it... mylar, mi mi mica.. ummm, i don't even knwo what mylar is
15:31 Guest63474 it's like an aluminized (whatever) piece of plastic
15:31 Guest63474 maybe you've seen similar stuff used to wrap presents, or those emergency blankets they sell
15:32 Guest63474 I know it's possible to "weld" it
15:32 Guest63474 but I don't think it works with just force and heat
15:32 Guest63474 I've heard about RF welders... but I've no idea how they work
15:32 RifRaf maybe with a plastic bag sealer thing
15:32 Guest63474 Thought about it, except I really need this to be air tight
15:32 Guest63474 think weather balloon
15:32 RifRaf oh, ok, have a good day/night, try not to hurt too many people
15:33 Guest63474 I'm not like that...
15:33 Guest63474 people hurt ME.
15:33 theBear oh... interesting.... i knwo about sonic plastic welding
15:33 RifRaf well try not to think it too much then
15:33 Guest63474 theBear: that sounds even fancier
15:33 theBear heh :) i can almost promise i won't hurt anyone in the next err, 7 hours
15:33 theBear whaddya call it, those little transducers, higher than audio
15:33 Guest63474 blah I need to get the lawn mowed
15:34 Guest63474 push mowers are no fun
15:34 Guest63474 one of these days I'll build a robot mower like one of rue's
15:34 Guest63474 except, more efficient
15:34 theBear c'mon, whaddya call it ? people use 'em for rangefinding and stuff
15:34 Guest63474 I have a 26cc engine on the shelf
15:34 theBear they are used to clean things
15:34 Guest63474 but the cylinder is scorred....
15:35 Guest63474 ultrasonic transducer
15:35 theBear they even make those little foggers for ... haha ! ultrasonic ! that
15:35 Guest63474 but out of a liquid medium (or somewhere to dump the power to) they crack open
15:35 Guest63474 for pot growing?
15:35 Guest63474 heh
15:35 Guest63474 sure it's for halloween!!!! <smokes>
15:35 theBear the idea is you aim it into somewhere for plastic welding
15:35 Guest63474 but wouldn't they crack due to the heat?
15:36 Guest63474 damn I wish I had one of those to play with
15:36 Guest63474 I guess lasers can also be used to weld plastic
15:36 Guest63474 not that I own anything nearly as powerful for that
15:36 Guest63474 maybe low tech would be the solution
15:36 Guest63474 a couple of hot copper pipes as rollers
15:36 Guest63474 or something like that
15:37 theBear http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/27346 has some good discussion re low aref, if yer speak german a tiny bit better than me
15:37 Guest63474 ACHTUNG
15:37 Guest63474 oh crap, only half liter of fuel left... or less
15:37 Guest63474 I really want to get an old 4 stroke briggs engine and convert it to run on propane
15:38 Guest63474 but it's not like you can find those things on the street, like in the US....
15:38 Guest63474 god damn this country
15:39 theBear meh, anywhere beats the us, just remember that
15:39 Guest63474 pfft
15:40 theBear plus internationally speaking, noone hates you guys
15:41 Guest63474 not even the UK?
15:41 Guest63474 Chile?
15:42 Guest63474 It doesn't matter, I can't be happy in this place
15:42 theBear i dunno chile too well, but EVERYONE hates the us
15:42 theBear EVERYONE !
16:41 Guest63474 theBear: wow.. I did about 3000 square meters with about half a liter of fuel!
16:42 Guest63474 It used to consume a lot more when it was new, now it's all nice and broken in
17:11 Guest63474 theBear: I'm still wondering if that metal epoxy would hold in a 2 stroke cylinder....
17:49 DagoRed ok, so keyboard + android phone = aweomse
17:49 DagoRed *awesome
18:51 theBear Guest63474, heh, feel free to try, but err, i gotta say i doubt it, specially in thin layers like that, even rubberised cement doesn't do good like that, and that's a lot less stress
18:57 theBear what the balls ? there used to be a bus directly from here to where i gotta go thismorning, now there isn't :(
19:05 Lola8088 ;i
19:05 theBear ahh, yes, semicolon i indeed
19:06 Lola8088 .
19:06 theBear what's up with you lola old intel processor ? you got a broken keyboard or braindamage or err ?
19:07 theBear oooh, are you a cat ?
19:08 theBear ahh yes, i think i finally got it, i'll take your silence as confirmation that you are infact a cat that somehow managed to get into irc
19:09 Tom_itx hangs out in rue's little channel
19:09 theBear huh ? he's got a little channel ?
19:09 Tom_itx uh huh
19:10 theBear so err, it is a cat right ? surely noone can type that much nonsense over several days and be human ? it's all undefined characters and punctuation !
19:10 Guest63474 theBear: well the stress on the epoxy would only come from the thermal expansion of the aluminum cylinder
19:10 Tom_itx a cat or a female human
19:11 theBear but, a female can at least form words, some even claim they are good at typing
19:11 Guest63474 other than that, the load is minimum on a 1-2mm line going height wise
19:11 theBear err, female human that is
19:11 theBear yeah, a line moving real fast and very hot on at least one side
19:11 Guest63474 a new jug and a new piston + rings costs more than what I paid for this thing
19:11 theBear and i'm pretty sure that ally changes shape a lot with heat
19:12 Guest63474 the line came from some inclusion
19:12 Guest63474 carbon deposit
19:12 Guest63474 intake side, which is rare though, I say they used it with no air filter and something got inside
19:12 Guest63474 doesn't look like it ran on straight gas
19:12 Guest63474 it would've scorred all around specially on the exhaust side
19:13 Guest63474 I've heard of people using some sort of jb-weld for this with "ok results" and I've been wondering ever since if it was bullshit or not.
19:14 theBear well if anyone can do it you can, findout for me :)
19:16 Guest63474 it doesn't matter if it kills whatever is left of the top-end heh
19:16 Guest63474 if only they used proper sleeved cylinders instead of these shitty alu plated ones
19:23 Guest63474 theBear: look up thermosteel, that's the shit I need!
19:23 Guest63474 (quiksteel in some places, never seen it though)
20:07 Rif durafix
20:07 Rif we have used it to rebate boat hulls and other stuff
20:08 Rif er repair, doing too many rebates here hith router :)
20:09 Rif dropped a lump of timber on my toes, got me just behind the steel caps, very sore :(
20:09 Rif and feels like the avr is still embedded everytime i lean on my arm, havin a crap day
20:18 Tom_itx u should be more careful
20:21 Rif is hard when i am so clumbsy
20:28 Rif watched a video on this last night, i think i'll try some of his advise http://www.alternatezone.com/electronics/ucurrent/uCurrentArticle.pdf
20:41 Rif he manages to run everything from a coin cell battery
21:07 Guest63474 RifRaf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdPG240LBWU&feature=player_embedded
21:07 Guest63474 wait is Rif RifRaf?
21:07 Tom_itx yup
21:13 Rif yes, rif is rifraf@work
21:14 Rif with 2 broken toes and going to lie down for 30min cause its lunchtime
21:22 jeet_ i have a control question
21:33 ace4016 you never asked it
21:34 ace4016 sleep time; night gents
21:34 ace4016 and ladies
21:43 e_house cleans off the chai
21:43 rue_house ok I finished dealing with the visitors and the room mate
21:43 rue_house now, what was on my todo list
21:43 rue_house ...
21:44 Tom_itx ever use git on windows?
21:44 GargantuaSauce yes in cygwin
21:44 rue_house do I ever use windows! hahaha
21:44 GargantuaSauce it kind of sucks, maybe try tortoisegit i hear it's gotten better
22:07 Guest63474 rue_house: visitors... chainsaw...? what did you do!
22:08 GargantuaSauce showed them his sculpting skills
22:40 theBear howabout you tell me what thermosteel and durafix is, then i don't have to wear out my fingers looking it up <grin>
22:41 theBear don't you know? rue is a master ice sculpter, AND he can juggle a chainsaw, a bowling pin, garden sheers AND a baby while he does it !
22:41 theBear he doesn't like to boast, but seriously, he's amazing !
23:08 Rif durafix is a welding product for alloys and aluminium and stuff, you use it with an oxy or brazing torch, or mapgas
23:08 Rif i can get some sticks if you wanna try, parts must be cleaned with stainless steel brush
23:08 Rif http://durafix.com.au/index.php
23:09 Rif the joins are stronger than the parts being fixed together
23:09 Rif takes a little bit of practise to use well but even i can do it
23:18 MrCurious debating calling my robot the Bro-Bot
23:18 MrCurious but that may open a big door for mocking
23:36 MrCurious i wonder if it is legal to fit a bot with a stun gun
23:49 Lola8088
23:53 theBear o
23:53 theBear i'd mock you
23:53 theBear damn lola ! make sense !\
23:54 theBear Rif, wow, is that saying ally welding/brazing without a shield or even flux ? that's kinda impressive !
23:54 Jak_o_Shadows typically, what current do you need to provide to a mosfet to overcome the gate capacitance?
23:55 theBear Jak_o_Shadows, it's r-c, any current will beat it eventually
23:56 Jak_o_Shadows lol, but I don't have 10 years.
23:56 theBear so lookup r-c maths, workout your source impedance, and lookup the gate capacitance on your device
23:57 theBear it's gonna be pf's anyway, until you are going superfast or worried about transition time for high current switching it's never an issue
23:59 Jak_o_Shadows theBear: I'm seeing if I can do it off a hex 4009 inverter
23:59 Jak_o_Shadows but yeah, approx 1500pF
23:59 theBear course you can, just depends if you care about transition speed, and how much you care about it