#robotics Logs

Jan 20 2013

03:34 sw0rdfish hmmm
03:34 sw0rdfish thats a nice one RifRaf
03:34 0rdfish goes back to breakf
04:54 PimplePicker Hello! Can someone explain to me the specific reason why you would need a wound rotor induction motor? I just want to double check!
05:05 Triffid_Hunter PimplePicker: no idea, would a squirrelcage induction work?
05:16 theBear i too have no idea
05:29 rue_bed repulsion mode start
05:29 rue_bed higher startup torque
05:29 rue_bed flips over when it comes up to rpm to induction mode
14:26 shuggans rue you on?
14:31 rue_house yes
14:32 shuggans Available to assist with relay concept?
14:32 rue_house yes
14:32 rue_house lets start with the diagram on the top or bottom of the relay
14:32 shuggans Sweeet!
14:32 shuggans I took off the wiring
14:32 rue_house yup
14:32 rue_house on the relay
14:32 rue_house there is an internal diagram
14:33 shuggans of the relays?
14:33 rue_house shuggans, oh, by the way, those motors have brakes on them
14:33 rue_house yes
14:33 shuggans I dont quite understand it
14:33 rue_house picture
14:33 shuggans Is 30 the pole?
14:33 rue_house I dont know, I need to see the relay
14:33 rue_house wow, its being sunny out
14:34 shuggans http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/relays_0332209137.asp
14:34 rue_house ok 30 is the pole
14:35 rue_house did they mark two 37's?
14:35 shuggans 87a 87 are throws?
14:35 rue_house ah
14:35 rue_house so 87 are the throws
14:35 rue_house and 85? is the coil
14:35 shuggans ok
14:36 rue_house oh, 86 and 85
14:36 shuggans so 85 is from whatever controls it?
14:36 rue_house :) I was squinting at the imag, I see the diagram below
14:36 shuggans :P
14:36 erupter shuggans, rue_house , either 85 or 86 for control, may I ask you why use relays?
14:36 rue_house erupter, first project
14:37 rue_house shuggans, so, how many of these relays do you need :)
14:37 erupter first project with a 50A relay??? sounds like a BIG first projectc
14:37 shuggans 4
14:37 rue_house no :)
14:37 shuggans 2?
14:37 rue_house what kind of relays are these
14:38 shuggans per motor
14:38 erupter what are the realys for?
14:38 erupter *relays
14:38 shuggans 4 total? for 2 motors?
14:38 rue_house yes
14:38 shuggans spdt
14:38 shuggans but we'll focus on on 2 for now
14:38 rue_house ok, so, do me up a diagram for 1 motor
14:38 erupter do you actually intend to drive the motors with relays?
14:38 shuggans I want seperate drivers for each motor
14:39 rue_house erupter, relays are good for reversing
14:39 rue_house yes
14:39 shuggans they were drivin with relays on the power chair
14:39 erupter can't believe that...
14:39 erupter do you have any other kind of motor control besides the relays?
14:39 rue_house erupter, it dosn't matter were doing what were doing
14:39 rue_house shuggans, work out a diagram for how the relays go for 1 motor
14:40 rue_house hint, you seen this diagram before
14:40 erupter rue_house, ok then go on, don't bother about people trying to give you advice, it's a bad habit some people still has ^_^
14:40 rue_house erupter, he is new at all this I'm keeping it simple
14:42 rue_house shuggans, is there a second set of two wires off the motor? (4 wires in total?)
14:42 rue_house usually those carts have a brake built in
14:45 shuggans I dont have the motors with me
14:45 shuggans from what I remember no
14:45 shuggans http://www.visuafusion.com/robotics/IMAG0013.jpg
14:47 rue_house no
14:47 rue_house if you look carefully, the battery can be shorted
14:47 rue_house if you swap the battery and motor, it'll correct the problem
14:48 rue_house draw again?
14:49 rue_house "this is the real world, you cant cheat on the answer"
14:49 shuggans battery with 2 leads to the throws?
14:49 rue_house yes
14:49 rue_house mtoor on the poles
14:53 shuggans http://www.visuafusion.com/robotics/IMAG0015.jpg
14:54 rue_house yes, se how the battery cant be shorted out?
14:54 rue_house p.s. ALWAYS remember to have a fuse off the battery
14:55 shuggans I dont... :P
14:55 rue_house how many of those fets did you get?
14:55 shuggans 16
14:56 rue_house ok, want to use them to drive the relays?
14:56 rue_house (some of them)
14:56 shuggans Idc either way
14:56 rue_house you can use 2 or 4/motor to do speed control later
14:56 shuggans you're saying bc the 5v won't drive the relay?
14:56 rue_house relays are REALLY fine with being driven by one of those fets
14:57 shuggans we need 12v from the coil right?
14:57 rue_house no, the current is too high for the microcontroller, and they should be ok 12V
14:57 rue_house yes, for the coil
14:57 shuggans so we use the 5v from mc to the gate of the fet to allow the 12v to the coil ?
14:57 rue_house exactly
14:58 rue_house and we dont need to switch the realys fast, so in that case the fet can be driven right off the microcontroller
14:58 shuggans so both 85's can be tied to the - battery lead as well?
14:58 shuggans on the relays?
14:58 rue_house yes, you can, shall we look at that as part of a seperate schematic?
14:59 rue_house it might be good to pretend we just have two coils to operate now
14:59 shuggans sure
14:59 rue_house did you get any diodes?
14:59 shuggans so only dealing with 86 and 85 on the relays?
14:59 rue_house yes
14:59 shuggans I have some... standby
15:00 rue_house how big?
15:00 rue_house you have some parts from computer power supplies right?
15:00 shuggans they look too tiny to work with this stuff though
15:00 rue_house ooooh
15:00 rue_house ... these relays have built in diodes....
15:01 shuggans IN4003
15:01 rue_house I'm going to pretend the relays dont have diodes
15:01 rue_house those would be ok
15:01 shuggans is what I have. And variosu power supplies yes
15:01 rue_house the relay coil takes 160mA
15:01 rue_house the microcontrollers output is good for about 10mA
15:01 shuggans what is IN4003?
15:01 rue_house 1N4003
15:02 rue_house diode
15:02 rue_house good for about 1A, 200V
15:02 shuggans I see
15:02 shuggans so use these?
15:02 rue_house ok, so, tell me what you know about how capacitors work
15:02 rue_house they will do
15:03 shuggans I know nothing :P
15:03 rue_house aaaah
15:03 rue_house do you want to look a bit up online while I make breakfast?
15:03 shuggans Yes - ill read up
15:04 shuggans Im goign to grab something quick too.
15:04 rue_house note to self [capacitors, inductors, flyback, diodes, fet driver]
15:20 shuggans So it's kind of like a battery that's capable of releasing it's charge in a short burst and stops direct current flow when fully charged?
15:22 shuggans and can even out spikes/lows in power flow?
15:22 GuShH they can do many tasks
15:22 GuShH filtering is what you're thinking of in that case
15:22 GuShH think of it as a buffer
15:23 GuShH people tend to understand them with the water logic a lot easier...
15:23 shuggans water logic?
15:23 rue_house ok lets go with its kinda like a batery, you can charge it up and it holds some power for a while
15:23 GuShH the analogy is you've got a low pressure water main and a tank (the cap) once the tank is full, it would allow you to release a big amount of water at the same time, as long as there's water in the tank.
15:24 shuggans ok
15:24 rue_house shuggans, most of electrical can be analogous to a closed loop water system
15:24 shuggans I noticed with switches
15:24 shuggans "this pipe or that pipe"
15:25 GuShH I wonder why pipes and water are easier to understand, because you can see water?
15:25 shuggans Lol - we see water systems since we are little.
15:25 GuShH it could bring more questions than answers
15:26 shuggans anyways
15:26 rue_house ok, so, you can unserstand how capacitors can store voltage ok?
15:26 shuggans yes
15:27 rue_house ok, now, a coil of wire, can store energy too
15:27 rue_house I'm going to shortcut some of the base theroy
15:28 shuggans makes sense
15:28 rue_house a capacitor 'stores' voltage
15:28 rue_house a inductor 'stores' current
15:29 rue_house to charge a capacitor you put a voltage across it
15:29 rue_house to charge an inductor you put current thru it
15:29 shuggans ok
15:29 rue_house now, that comes with some interesting attibutes
15:29 GuShH all of this to explain relays? or what's the goal here?
15:30 GuShH it'll go through one ear and come out the other unless he gets a few books on the subject
15:30 shuggans inductor is the big square in theis power supply right?
15:30 rue_house lets say we have a coil A_____mmmmmm______B
15:30 rue_house shuggans, yes **
15:30 KimLaroux I like to see it this way: Capacitors stores electrons. Inductors store a magnetic field. It's easier to visualize.
15:30 shuggans Ok... A____mmmmmmmmm_____B
15:31 GuShH this is getting silly
15:31 GuShH ascii windings
15:31 shuggans lol m's are coiled wire?
15:31 GuShH that's what he meant.
15:31 shuggans im getting it
15:31 rue_house if you apply power across the relay with A being + and B being -
15:31 GuShH But it's silly because only a few people would ever get it.
15:31 rue_house the inductor will charge up
15:32 rue_house now, the inductor wants the current to stay the same
15:32 shuggans so you need a cap before it?
15:32 rue_house if you disconnect the coil, it will try to generate a voltage to keep the current going
15:33 rue_house the point is that A will go - and B will go +
15:33 rue_house depending on the coil, to a few thousand volts
15:33 shuggans so diode
15:33 shuggans is needed?
15:33 ShH is against overly simplified explanations that lead to disaster eventu
15:33 rue_house we need to not expose the transistor to a few thousand volts
15:34 rue_house so, we use a diode to 'shunt' the voltage, which allows the coil to maintain its current
15:34 rue_house shuggans, your aware the relays have coils in them to flip the swtich, yes?
15:34 shuggans yes
15:35 rue_house so we need diodes there
15:35 rue_house motors also do this
15:35 shuggans around the relay, poining the driection of intended flow?
15:35 rue_house so if you use transisotrs to drive a motor, you need diodes around that too
15:35 GuShH shuggans: In this overly simplified scenario the diode performs one function, it's a one-way valve and it provides a discharge path for the coil, imagine the electrons flowing out of the coil into the diode and back into the coil, the internal losses of the coil will dissipate this down to 0 after a given period of time, the losses exist because all regular conductors are resistive.
15:36 GuShH it'll "loop around" until it's dissipated.
15:36 rue_house :)
15:36 GuShH the reason why the higher voltage is developed cannot be explained in rue's scenario because it was so overly simplified.
15:36 rue_house I was going to go into formation and colapse of magnetic fields, but didn't see why
15:37 MjrTom I think the ASCII coils are awesome
15:37 rue_house you cant learn everything in one day
15:37 GuShH keywords for reference: flyback diode and as an exercise, snubber.
15:37 GuShH MjrTom: haha
15:37 GuShH is there a backwards 3 to represent a transformer?
15:37 shuggans SO: you have... the coil,,, and then a diode between the coil pin a and coil pin b?
15:37 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/circuits/dc_ctrl3_sch.jpg
15:38 rue_house shuggans, can you understand that diagram any more now?
15:38 rue_house ===3||E====
15:38 GuShH no online annotation sites these days?
15:38 rue_house its an E core transformer :)
15:38 GuShH but that's hard to understand as a winding, actually you'd think it's a tapped winding! one line ascii has failed us
15:39 shuggans the relay is the rectangle w the slash?
15:39 GuShH lol
15:39 rue_house shuggans, yes
15:39 shuggans Ok
15:39 shuggans then yes
15:39 shuggans I understood enoguh to deduce that
15:39 rue_house so you see the flyback diode
15:39 GuShH the representation of the relay is separated into it's elements on that schematic, you've got the coils and the contacts
15:39 shuggans so if current flows backwards it thatkes the diodes path around and around till it's gone?
15:39 rue_house yes
15:40 GuShH it dissipates on both the diode, the coil and the conductors in between them.
15:40 shuggans and dissipates because kinetic enrgy jsut doesnt exist yet :P
15:40 rue_house GuShH, I'm seeing things I dont like in my schematic, no flyback across the motor and no pulldown on the transistorss...
15:40 GuShH yeap if the bases are left floating....
15:41 rue_house shuggans, lets go there
15:41 GuShH although there's not enough gain in most cases to cause trouble except for T2
15:41 GuShH and T1
15:41 rue_house shuggans, the power dissipated in a circuit is calculated by mulitplying the current and the voltage
15:41 rue_house P = I * V
15:41 rue_house shuggans, test questions 5V 2A how much power?
15:42 shuggans 10
15:42 rue_house watts
15:42 rue_house yes
15:42 shuggans ok
15:42 shuggans now I know :P
15:42 rue_house your running the mtoors on 12V?
15:42 shuggans yep
15:42 shuggans that's the plan. Seems liek what they were designed to run on
15:43 rue_house ok so, if you have a transistor driving the motor,
15:43 rue_house the transistor is off, there is 12V across it, 0A thru it, whats the power dissipated by it?
15:43 shuggans 0?
15:43 rue_house yes
15:44 rue_house you have a really good transistor...
15:44 e_house glares at Gu
15:44 GuShH -_-
15:44 rue_house and its on, there is 0V across the transistor, and 8A thru it, whats the power dissipation
15:44 e_house glares at Gu
15:44 GuShH let's go back to germanium transistors and say that again.
15:44 shuggans 0
15:44 rue_house right
15:45 GuShH EXCEPT
15:45 rue_house so far that transistor is staying pretty cool eh?
15:45 rue_house GuShH, ssssh!
15:45 ShH can't hold the reality bag any
15:45 rue_house no, you stuff the reality bag
15:45 shuggans probably not...
15:45 GuShH but flyback is not around to get stuffed
15:45 rue_house never mind gush, so far its 0watts on and 0watts off
15:46 GuShH I want one of those
15:46 GuShH I would make millions, billions.
15:46 rue_house shuggans, for ref, one of those trasistors, dissipating 2W for more than about 30 seconds, will get hot enough to burn your finger
15:46 rue_house GuShH, yesno?
15:47 rue_house (without a heatsink)
15:47 shuggans Nice....
15:47 shuggans Cooling fans work?
15:47 GuShH what when?
15:47 rue_house hey were 0W so far, were fine
15:47 rue_house now lets say we want to do speed control
15:48 rue_house lets say we want 6V to the motors
15:48 rue_house the transistors have 6V across them, and lets say 4A thru them
15:48 rue_house power is?
15:48 shuggans 12w
15:48 rue_house no
15:48 shuggans 24*
15:48 rue_house yes
15:48 shuggans damn. :P
15:49 GuShH you just bought lesser parts and they blew up on you.
15:49 rue_house well we definitly burning our fingers on that one
15:49 shuggans my first response was brilliant... :D
15:49 rue_house you remembered the w :)
15:49 rue_house shuggans, ok, so
15:49 rue_house lets go back a bit
15:49 rue_house you have a transistor operating the relay
15:50 shuggans yes
15:50 shuggans ith 12v...
15:50 rue_house 12V relay, 160mA
15:50 rue_house lets say you dont connect the gate of the fet to anything
15:50 rue_house so its not on and its not off
15:50 rue_house lets say its half on
15:50 GuShH those are BJTs in your schematic
15:50 GuShH so bases not gates
15:51 rue_house 6V at 0.160 A
15:51 rue_house GuShH, shuggans is using fets, I'll stay with them
15:51 GuShH not having pull-downs with fets is asking for trouble
15:51 rue_house were calculating why
15:51 shuggans .96w
15:51 rue_house yes, its gonna start getting hot
15:52 rue_house so, the point is that you want to put a resistor on the gate of the fet to 'default' it to being off
15:52 rue_house (or on)
15:52 rue_house but not let it sit in the middle
15:52 GuShH introducing rds(on) to a store near you
15:53 rue_house GuShH, so far were clear of that on his fets
15:53 rue_house .007 ohms is ~0
15:53 rue_house or was it .0007
15:54 GuShH if you are dealing with heavy loads that difference can mean a lot
15:54 rue_house shuggans, do you remember how I said you turn 'on' a fet?
15:54 shuggans I bought bigger resistors too - not sure if they are big enough for this application though..
15:54 GuShH by bigger do you mean physically bigger? or their value?
15:54 shuggans red purple brown gold
15:54 GuShH power dissipation is going to be minimal
15:54 rue_house lets do that
15:54 GuShH on the pull-down resistor, at low frequencies
15:54 rue_house shuggans, say !doresistors 10
15:54 shuggans and physically bigger
15:55 shuggans !doresistors 10
15:55 tobbor shuggans: What is the value of the color blue?
15:55 rue_house ever seen the resistor colour code?
15:55 shuggans no
15:55 rue_house http://www.michaels-electronics-lessons.com/images/resistor-color-code-all.gif
15:55 GuShH shuggans: you calculate the sustained power dissipation across a resistor and then use the nearest higher value available, so their physical size depends on your power requirements (we won't go into high voltages right now)
15:55 rue_house so, whats blue?
15:56 rue_house (digit)
15:56 GuShH oh, I was going to say the sky.
15:56 rue_house :)
15:57 shuggans 6
15:57 tobbor shuggans: Correct. What is the colour for the value 6?
15:57 shuggans blue
15:57 tobbor shuggans: Correct. What is the value of the color black?
15:57 shuggans 0
15:57 tobbor shuggans: Correct. What is the value of the color white?
15:57 shuggans 9
15:57 tobbor shuggans: Correct. What is the value of the color green?
15:57 shuggans 5
15:57 tobbor shuggans: Correct. What is the colour for the value 8?
15:57 shuggans grey
15:57 tobbor shuggans: Correct. What is the colour for the value 7?
15:58 shuggans purple
15:58 tobbor shuggans: Correct. What is the colour for the value 3?
15:58 GuShH now do it without the cheat sheet
15:58 shuggans orange
15:58 tobbor shuggans: Correct. What is the value of the color orange?
15:58 rue_house the cheatsheet is ok
15:58 shuggans 3
15:58 tobbor shuggans: Correct. What is the value of the color red?
15:58 shuggans 2
15:58 tobbor shuggans: Correct. Your score was: 100%
15:58 rue_house its about working it in, if you play this long enough, you will just remmeber
15:58 rue_house its how I trained me
15:58 GuShH and who gave you cookies?
15:59 rue_house so shuggans use that to tell me what resistance you think your resistors are
15:59 shuggans so this is 2 7 10 +-5%
15:59 rue_house the 10 is a multiplier
15:59 rue_house so 270 ohms
15:59 shuggans 270 +-5%
16:00 rue_house ok, more math!
16:00 rue_house current is votlage divided by resistance
16:00 rue_house taking notes? :)
16:00 shuggans ye
16:00 shuggans s
16:00 rue_house I = V / R I is current in amps, V is voltage in bolts, and R is resistance in ohms
16:01 rue_house so, if you put the resistor yo have across 12V, what is the current
16:01 GuShH shuggans: the 5% tolerance means it could be within 256.5 ohms to 283.5, assuming you've got them more or less at room temperature.
16:02 GuShH for this application they're more than suitable
16:02 rue_house and any cuircit can prettymuch tolerate 20% variances in the resistor value, so if you close, your usually ok
16:02 GuShH not radio not medical not...
16:02 ShH h
16:03 rue_house if shuggans starts making medical stuff I'm gonna run for the hills
16:03 GuShH HAhaha
16:03 shuggans :P
16:03 rue_house shuggans, what do you get
16:03 shuggans maybe someday.
16:03 GuShH e-meter
16:03 shuggans but just an rc tank for now :P
16:03 shuggans .0444
16:04 rue_house right
16:04 rue_house ok .044A
16:04 GuShH actually RC tank could be read as something else!
16:04 GuShH (resistor capacitor tank)
16:04 rue_house now, the resistor has .044A thru it, and 12V across it, whats its power loss?
16:04 GuShH not accounting for his cold solder joints?
16:04 shuggans .528w
16:05 rue_house congrands, you have .528W heaters!
16:05 GuShH what size resistor would you buy then?
16:05 rue_house :)
16:05 rue_house shuggans, do you remember the wattage rating on the resistors you got?
16:05 shuggans no
16:05 shuggans i think i still have boxes
16:06 shuggans 1/2 watt
16:06 rue_house hmm, so, if you put those right across 12V, the will prolly change colour
16:06 rue_house on their way to black...
16:06 rue_house :)
16:06 shuggans So I need
16:07 shuggans like 1 watt resistors?
16:07 rue_house so, if you use those across 5V, whats the power dissipation?
16:07 shuggans .018
16:07 rue_house no
16:07 rue_house thats amps
16:08 rue_house 5V .018A
16:08 GuShH shuggans: because you are dissipating over half watt, you'd need the nearest bigger number (1W)
16:08 GuShH assuming continous dissipation.
16:09 GuShH for short periods of time you can get away with smaller resistors, until reliability becomes a factor
16:09 rue_house yea you also want atleast twice the wattage rating on the resistor as its dissipating
16:09 shuggans .09w
16:09 rue_house yes
16:09 rue_house so even 1/4w resistors would be ok
16:10 rue_house shuggans, want to take a break let your head cool down?
16:10 GuShH neither resistor in rue_house's schematic would need to dissipate much current at all if all transistors are mosfets
16:10 shuggans lol
16:10 shuggans so
16:10 GuShH capacitor... water tank, cooling down... cap on head.
16:10 shuggans For my mosfets
16:10 shuggans I need bigger resistors?
16:11 shuggans or these are fine?
16:11 GuShH on gates no, they're overkill.
16:11 shuggans *highjer wattage resistors*
16:11 rue_house remember you ahve 5V gates
16:11 rue_house but
16:11 rue_house antoher factor
16:11 GuShH what's driving the gates anyway, a micro? he should have aux power
16:11 rue_house remember I said the microcontroller is good to 10mA
16:12 rue_house .1A = 100mA
16:12 rue_house .01A = 10mA
16:12 rue_house .001A = 1mA
16:12 shuggans powering arduino with usb cable from usb port on microatxpc
16:12 GuShH he's using relays, switching frequency is going to be very low
16:12 rue_house yes,
16:12 GuShH that means he can charge the gates slowly
16:13 rue_house I'm trying to plant whats needed for pwm on the relay bridge later
16:13 GuShH speaking of plants... brb
16:13 rue_house pwm for speed, relays for reversing, saves all that high side gate cr**
16:13 GuShH need to water my pumpkins!
16:14 rue_house GuShH, arduino, triac, washing machine valve...
16:14 GuShH lol no thanks at the arduino part.
16:14 GuShH I will automate it eventually.
16:14 GuShH I don't have a greenhouse though
16:14 rue_house :) you get the intent tho
16:15 rue_house water proof box, I use one
16:15 GuShH that means I use a lot more water
16:15 rue_house na
16:15 GuShH the humidity is not controlled though
16:15 GuShH since it's all out in the open
16:15 rue_house stick a wire into the ground
16:15 GuShH I could have a closed loop system for that
16:15 GuShH but, right now I'm just starting.
16:16 rue_house shuggans, to keep a fet off, place a resistor from the source to the gate
16:16 rue_house the microcontroller will have to fight that resistor to turn on the fet
16:16 rue_house I sugget 1k resistors
16:17 Tom_itx rue_shop3, did you have school yesterday?
16:17 rue_house shuggans, would you draw me a diagram of what you picture as a summary of how to wire the fet to the relay?
16:18 rue_house Tom_itx, yes, we threaded on the lathe, made a post for a microphone, 27tpi, 5/8"
16:18 rue_house and it worked!
16:18 Tom_itx what angle tip is the thread cutter?
16:18 rue_house I made a mild steel thread cutter for doing it (it was plastic)
16:18 Tom_itx i need to grind one
16:18 Tom_itx 60 deg?
16:18 rue_house I did 50 degrees accidently, was supposed to be 55ish
16:18 rue_house went from 70 to 50
16:19 Tom_itx i need to make one for internal threads
16:19 rue_house :S
16:19 rue_house we found a chart, interested?
16:19 rue_house I think 60 is right tho
16:23 Tom_itx all my internal cutters are carbide though
16:23 Tom_itx i'll have to make one from a drill or something
16:24 rue_house remember shanks aren't treated
16:24 rue_house I wonder if the toaster oven could pull of heat treating
16:24 Tom_itx it'll work
16:24 Tom_itx i've done it before
16:25 Tom_itx mine goes to 238c pretty easy
16:25 rue_house I'm thinking the shank tho
16:25 Tom_itx how hot does it need to be?
16:25 rue_house I dont know enough about any of it
16:25 Tom_itx i could insulate it better
16:25 rue_house I'm thinking if you could do it you could get drillrod too
16:25 Tom_itx i've done flame hardening but it's been a while
16:25 Tom_itx made some press dies and flame hardened the edges
16:26 rue_house I'v accidently hardened all sorts of things, softened just as many
16:26 Tom_itx i got drill rod too
16:26 rue_house ok Im off t the shop to get something done! :)
16:27 Tom_itx you got keyboards out there too ya know
16:27 e_house watches shuggans hold his
16:28 Tom_itx i had to work on the car today
16:28 Tom_itx rear door lock
16:28 Tom_itx needs a new one... put it all back to gether
16:28 Tom_itx check the warranty before spending $160 for a lock
16:30 Tom_itx how big a electric motor were you gonna put in your truck?
16:30 rue_house 25-50hp
16:30 rue_house orig engine is only 95hp?
16:30 Tom_itx watts
16:34 rue_shop2 18642 to 37285
16:34 rue_shop2 w
16:35 rue_shop2 I'm thinking using 10k-20krpm motors ganged
16:35 Tom_itx According to Wikipedia, the Tesla�s motor weights only 32kg at a power of about 200kw
16:35 rue_shop2 600V or 600A?
16:35 rue_shop2 the_jester, you gonna come work on the reprap?
16:35 Tom_itx i dunno
16:35 the_jester 600A
16:35 the_jester i was at your house today
16:36 rue_shop2 teslas motor
16:36 rue_shop2 or do you meant he origional tesla, aka nichola
16:36 rue_shop2 the_jester, wtf!?
16:36 rue_shop2 come by before 11:00?
16:36 the_jester u were AWOL
16:36 rue_shop2 I thogutht I heard theback door about a half hour ago?
16:36 rue_shop2 I woke up 11:00
16:37 rue_shop2 was up to 3 last night
16:37 the_jester i was gonna see about that pc
16:37 rue_shop2 which pc?
16:37 rue_shop2 did you get/want one of the 3G?
16:37 the_jester where did the box full of micro atx mobos come from?
16:37 rue_shop2 heh :) they are a hot item
16:37 rue_shop2 :) scrd
16:37 rue_shop2 13 or so of them
16:38 rue_shop2 but I think they are 266Mhz
16:38 rue_shop2 with power supplies
16:38 the_jester i ask such uselless questions, i knew that i looked at one, said scrd on it
16:38 the_jester Wheres Rif?
16:41 rue_shop2 good question
16:41 the_jester ..lol
16:41 rue_shop2 I dont know if the ozzies are up yet
16:41 rue_shop2 theBear, HEY!? YOU UP???
16:42 the_jester I would just anger him anyway
16:42 rue_shop2 !seen RifRaf
16:42 tobbor RifRaf was last seen in #avr on Jan 20 12:26 2013
16:42 rue_shop2 he's resurrecting all his old projects
16:42 the_jester very recent
16:42 rue_shop2 with mixed success
16:42 Tom_itx good
16:42 Jak_o_Shadows Yeah, australians are up
16:42 shuggans rue: back
16:42 the_jester he should arduinoize tip toes
16:42 rue_shop2 shuggans, how you absorbing all that stuff?
16:43 rue_shop2 the_jester, arduino is out, he found a new library
16:43 shuggans very well
16:43 rue_shop2 shuggans, you wanna draw what you have so far on what the relay driver circuit would look like
16:43 Tom_itx tacos are barely good the first day.. let alone the 2nd
16:43 rue_shop2 see what you can mix in there
16:43 the_jester a new lib?
16:43 rue_shop2 the_jester, did you check out the shop?
16:43 the_jester nope
16:43 rue_shop2 the_jester, "webbots"
16:44 rue_shop2 overhaul on buddyII , looking really good
16:44 Tom_itx why do they require running that java app?
16:44 the_jester i shouldent really care what hes doing,
16:45 Tom_itx sure you should
16:46 the_jester speak of the deval
16:46 Tom_itx yup, the aussie alarm just went off
16:46 the_jester devil
16:46 Jak_o_Shadows btw, how simple is it to control a servo from a uC? You don't have to worry about getting the power to the servvo do you?
16:46 Tom_itx of course you do
16:46 Tom_itx it won't run itself
16:47 Jak_o_Shadows I mean transistors and such to get the power up to what it needs
16:47 the_jester Jak; it is painfully simple to run a servo with a Uc, you need to supply the servo with power
16:47 the_jester no
16:48 the_jester http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfEBXum4nac
16:49 Jak_o_Shadows shuggans: once you have that design up for running a motor off a mosfet and dual pole dual throw, mind sharing it?
16:49 rue_shop2 the_jester, well damn to have missed you
16:49 the_jester i will try another day
16:49 shuggans www.visuafusion.com/robotics/IMAG0016.jpg
16:50 shuggans ag
16:50 shuggans soclet was closed during upload
16:50 Tom_itx you 2 know how phones work don't ya?
16:50 e_shop2 looks around for
16:50 shuggans kk pic is there now
16:50 RifRaf i'm at work on the router
16:51 RifRaf hi the_jester long time no see
16:51 Tom_itx keep your fingers at a distance
16:52 the_jester Hi RifRaf, nice to see you are back, was wondering if you joined the wastelanders
16:52 rue_shop2 shuggans, :) heeh
16:52 shuggans good?
16:52 rue_shop2 the source goes to - the drain goes to the coil
16:53 Tom_itx wtf
16:53 rue_shop2 we need to work on your schematics
16:53 shuggans so i have them flipped backwards?
16:53 rue_shop2 Tom_itx, you want to take on that lesson?
16:53 rue_shop2 shuggans, well, your liens are ambigious as they go thru
16:53 rue_shop2 :)
16:53 Tom_itx naw
16:53 shuggans lol. I know
16:54 shuggans let me redraw
16:54 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/hip4081_bridge.png
16:55 rue_shop2 Tom_itx, no, that will blow up for him for sure
16:55 rue_shop2 relays are gonna behave so much better
16:55 rue_shop2 good for a start anyhow
16:55 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/pwm_control_stuff.htm
16:56 rue_shop2 no you have a good explaination of just pwm somewhere
16:56 rue_shop2 zh...
16:56 rue_shop2 !seen zhanx
16:56 tobbor zhanx was last seen in #garfield on Jan 17 20:45 2013
16:56 rue_shop2 !time
16:56 tobbor My watch says its 02:47PM Sun Jan 20 2013
16:56 Tom_itx gee who wrote that
16:57 Jak_o_Shadows Tom_itx: Those are logic level mosfets?
16:57 rue_shop2 I couldn't find it on yoru page, I thought you scooped it from someone and had it on your page
16:58 shuggans www.visuafusion.com/robotics/IMAG0017.jpg
16:59 rue_shop2 ok, closer
16:59 rue_shop2 shuggans, dig up the digaram for an N channel mosfet from the web
17:00 rue_shop2 you have a bipolar, cause thats what I keep showing you
17:00 rue_shop2 your diode may be backwards
17:00 rue_shop2 a diode is ----|<------
17:00 shuggans http://wiki.mech.uwa.edu.au/index.php/Micro_crash_course/pwm
17:01 rue_shop2 nono
17:01 rue_shop2 thats microcntroller programing stuff
17:01 rue_shop2 there is one that talks about WHY pwm and how pwm actually works
17:01 shuggans http://wiki.mech.uwa.edu.au/index.php/Image:VP2110_pinout.gif
17:02 rue_shop2 the left one yes
17:02 rue_shop2 you can ditch drawing in the diode
17:02 rue_shop2 its always there
17:02 rue_shop2 but thats P channel
17:03 rue_shop2 I know
17:03 rue_shop2 digikey, find the datasheet for the IRFZ44
17:03 rue_shop2 its got a proper diagram for sure
17:04 shuggans http://skory.z-net.hu/alkatresz/irfz44.pdf
17:05 rue_shop2 fig 12
17:05 rue_shop2 13/14
17:05 rue_shop2 I dont draw the internal diode
17:05 rue_shop2 gate is obvious
17:06 shuggans middle is gate in the diagram?
17:06 rue_shop2 the lead that goes to the two internal pads is the source
17:06 rue_shop2 the arrow pointing INTO the pad means its N channel
17:06 rue_shop2 the wire just going to the one pad is the drain
17:06 rue_shop2 (I'm ignoring the diode)
17:08 shuggans but concept - correct?
17:09 rue_shop2 +- diode direction, yes
17:09 rue_shop2 now, if you look at the diagram for those relays, they have an internal diode, do they marked one side of the relay with a +
17:10 rue_shop2 make sure that side of the coil is positive, or it'll blow the internal diode
17:10 shuggans 85
17:10 rue_shop2 I'm gonna trust your right
17:10 rue_shop2 (no diagram)
17:10 shuggans nop
17:10 shuggans 86 is +
17:11 shuggans http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/relays_0332209137.asp
17:11 shuggans so my diagrams are right already
17:12 rue_shop2 ok
17:12 rue_shop2 so NORMALLY you would put a diode in the circuit, but its already in the relays, so your ok
17:12 rue_shop2 now you dont want to use the 270 ohm resistors off thebase, beacuse they will load the microcontroller a bit too much
17:12 shuggans absolutely no need?
17:13 rue_shop2 you can put one in if you want, wont hurt
17:13 rue_shop2 you ahve to be sure to put it the right way around
17:13 GuShH the cathode pointing to the supply rail
17:13 rue_shop2 Cathode -----|<------ Anode
17:14 rue_shop2 on the diode itself, the stripe marks the cathode end
17:14 shuggans ok.
17:14 ShH has some pvc piping he could use for an irrigation system
17:14 GuShH hmm no elbows though
17:14 GuShH I would need a bunch of 90� ones
17:14 rue_shop2 shuggans, test question: In the fet, is the source hooked to the cathode or anode of the internal diode?
17:14 orlok 4 days
17:16 shuggans anode?
17:16 rue_shop2 yes
17:16 rue_shop2 :)
17:17 shuggans bc it's keeping drain from flowing back
17:17 shuggans more or less?
17:18 rue_shop2 its a long story
17:18 rue_shop2 lets say its reverse protecion
17:23 shuggans so with that design - I can implment PWM later on?
17:23 rue_shop2 shuggans, www.digikey.com 1N4004, dig up datasheet?
17:23 rue_shop2 yes
17:23 rue_shop2 you have like 12 fets left
17:24 shuggans http://www.diodes.com/datasheets/ds28002.pdf
17:25 rue_shop2 do hey, they dont show the symbol
17:25 rue_shop2 whats with that?
17:27 shuggans http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/1N4001-D.PDF
17:28 rue_shop2 I see a symbol!
17:28 rue_shop2 bottom of page 4
17:28 shuggans mount method 3?
17:28 shuggans the |(
17:29 shuggans |< **
17:29 rue_shop2 the electrical diagram at the bottom
17:29 rue_shop2 right
17:30 rue_shop2 its funny really, they just imply you know which is the anode and cathode
17:33 shuggans So i justy need 1 fet per - trace bc the coile amprage isnt nearly the motor amprage?
17:34 rue_shop2 right
17:35 rue_shop2 you could use a tiny transistor for the relay, I'm suggesting to just you your fets cause youhave them and its easy
17:35 rue_shop2 they are 125% overkill :)
17:35 rue_shop2 er 125x overkill
17:36 shuggans :P
17:36 shuggans deal
17:36 shuggans + they are logic level
17:36 rue_shop2 exactly
17:36 rue_shop2 !thislog
17:36 tobbor This one: http://rueshouse.dyndns.org:82/~ircjunk/irclogs/html/%23robotics-2013-01-20.html
17:37 shuggans nice!
17:38 rue_shop2 :)
17:47 rue_shop2 shuggans, shall we go over drawing schematics more?
17:59 Tom_itx rue_shop2, http://www.goliath.com.au/tech%20thread%20forms.jpg
18:00 rue_shop2 unable to load page
18:00 rue_shop2 relaod worked
18:00 shuggans rue: Time to pay attntion to the fiance for a bit :P
18:00 Tom_itx aww
18:00 Tom_itx it's a good page
18:00 Tom_itx loaded fine here
18:05 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/rue/tech_thread_forms.jpg
18:05 Tom_itx there.
18:09 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/rue/thread_forms.png
18:28 rue_shop2 hmm a barrier on the edge of every board carrier would be a good idea
18:30 Tom_itx did you get that one?
18:30 rue_shop2 yup
18:31 Tom_itx my router is slow again
18:39 GuShH Tom_itx: hit the "turbo" button! do it nao!
20:14 -adams.freenode.net:#robotics- [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
23:56 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/robots/buddy_II/p1040835.jpg
23:56 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/robots/buddy_II/p1040836.jpg
23:56 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/robots/buddy_II/p1040837.jpg
23:56 rue_house TELunus, what do you think?
23:57 rue_house where is rifraf
23:58 rue_house Tom_itx, that cross dowel trick works really nice
23:59 TELunus Remind me what that one's supposed to do again?
23:59 rue_house wifi webcam on wheels
23:59 GuShH_ lol