#robotics Logs

Sep 13 2012

06:15 Tom_itx -1
09:10 rue_house 65536 bytes :)
19:22 neorpheus hello all, i come to you with perhaps a stupid question. im working on a 99 vw jetta, im trying to get the panel that the power window motor mounts to out, according to both my eyes and haynes manual i have to get the door latch out to continue removing the panel. long story short the latch is held in with what look like 12 point torx screws, how ever t45 is too big and t40 is too small. a quick trip to google only says that i should try using a
19:22 neorpheus n better quality bit but im working with kobalt and it is one of the recomemded brands. any ideas?
19:22 neorpheus i know this isnt exactly what this channels description says but im hoping one of you may be able to help
19:29 katsmeow-afk it's metric, use metric torx
19:30 Tom_itx there is such a thing?
19:31 neorpheus ive never heard of metric torx but thanks for the help, i just found out they are 8mm tripple ssquare bolts
19:31 katsmeow-afk gotta be, you think they imported usa bolts to *Germany* to make such a fine car?
19:31 katsmeow-afk oh, then use a 12point socket
19:31 neorpheus lmao, id almost believe the metri thing, just about everything else on the car is
19:32 katsmeow-afk Only the proper driver can drive a specific head size without risk of damaging the driver or screw. The same series of Torx drivers is used to drive SAE, metric and other thread system fasteners, reducing the number of bit sizes required.
19:32 neorpheus ive never worked on cars before and this is my first one, im getting a crash course in how complicated this is
19:33 katsmeow-afk english (SAE) are Tnumbered, metric torx are Enumbered
19:33 katsmeow-afk you likely need an E8 or E9
19:34 tsmeow-afk lets you laugh about believeing it as she goes to bash her head in on the door frame for trying to be intelli
19:36 neorpheus haha you actually had me til i popped my head up and asked my dad if there was such a thing and he says "in 35 yeahs of working in garages and machine shops ive never heard of them..... damn germans"
19:39 katsmeow-afk fuck, i am being serious
19:41 neorpheus but the only difference is the threading, not the contact surface for the bit/bolt so even if it was metric my standard set should work, no worries tho, like i said i found out it is a 8mm 12 point
19:42 Tom_itx oh, yeah they like using 12 point stuff it seems
19:43 neorpheus yep
19:44 Trick passes katsmeow-afk some whitworth bolts.
19:44 neorpheus i noticed another on the engine but assumed it was allan or torx at the time, looks like im investing in a 12 point set
19:44 Tom_itx MrTrick i have a couple whitworth wrenches
19:44 MrTrick me too. I once owned a car that used a weird combination of whitworth and imperial.
19:45 Tom_itx oddly enough i was digging for something last night and found a handfull of model T wrenches too
19:45 neorpheus wow
19:45 Tom_itx 2 had 'FORD' on them
19:45 Tom_itx 1917
19:46 Tom_itx iirc
19:46 MrTrick let us just hope that Apple never venture toward building cars.
19:46 katsmeow-afk 500Mhz oscope :
19:47 katsmeow-afk Tektronix-Oscilloscope-7903-parts-repair
19:47 katsmeow-afk Winning bid: US $19.99
19:47 Tom_itx http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/214837.html?1307022870
19:47 neorpheus lmao, i can see it now, the 14 lobed crank case bolts
19:47 Tom_itx one had the 'M' on it
19:48 Tom_itx and they look nearly identical to the bottom pic
19:49 katsmeow-afk "one knob on the radio should be enough for anybody"
19:50 Tom_itx http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-FORD-MODEL-T-5893-2-SOCKET-COMBINATION-WRENCH-/380224657818?fits=Make:Ford|Year:1917&hash=item588727d99a&item=380224657818&pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr
19:50 MrTrick neorpheus: "To open the bonnet, position fourteen 0.5-Tesla magnets around the outside, apply a heat gun to the surface for several minutes, then lift strongly from both sides."
19:50 Tom_itx i had one of those but dunno what happened to it
19:51 neorpheus MrTrick, lmfao yeah
19:51 katsmeow-afk i have seen them before, does that count?
19:51 Tom_itx sure does
19:52 Tom_itx i've got some others that look from the same era but unmarked
19:52 katsmeow-afk we were using it on an old Ford tractor, still used it too, every day except winter
19:52 katsmeow-afk in the early 1970's
19:54 neorpheus found a nice bit set for cheap on amazon
19:54 neorpheus http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-10-Piece-Triple-Square-Quality/dp/B004WK9I3O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347583300&sr=8-1&keywords=triple+square+bit+set
19:57 katsmeow-afk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_square#Triple_square
19:58 MrTrick Has anyone here used grbl or another CNC controller?
19:58 Tom_itx ?
19:58 Tom_itx i use linuxcnc
19:59 ace4016 http://youtu.be/ldsYjFRsRU8
19:59 MrTrick Okay, so grbl et al are g-code interpreters that run on the controller itself, rather than the PC generating individual steps.
20:00 Tom_itx what does reprap use?
20:03 MrTrick they have a bunch of different firmwares...
20:04 MrTrick some are specifically for FDM 3D printers, and others can be used for CNC or other things.
20:04 Trick needs a 2-axis controller with some extra outputs (penup/down, line feed) and accel/lookah
20:05 Tom_itx standalone?
20:05 MrTrick Will be connected to a PC, of unknown operating system.
20:06 MrTrick and has to coexist with unknown other stuff running on that PC... so given linuxcnc's linux-only-ness and hardware requirements...
20:06 MrTrick Also, the thing will be unattended and have movements dynamically sent to it.
20:07 MrTrick So I'm in favour of: [ PC ] -------> g-code over USB serial -----> [ controller ]
20:07 neorpheus i want to build a 3d printer so bad, im looking for at least a 1.5^3 foot work area
20:08 MrTrick heh, do you have access to one?
20:08 neorpheus me? somewhat, i have free run of a local hackerspace when its not being rented
20:09 MrTrick so it should be pretty easy to build one, get the bits made on the 3D printer there.
20:09 MrTrick Check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYs6jASd_Ww
20:10 neorpheus yeah, thats my plan, but i havent looked into it very much yet, im not sure if i can just build a bigger printer and use the default software and stuff, while keeping the same resolution
20:15 neorpheus omg thats kool, you know if its still in the prototype phase?
20:18 MrTrick It is, but a bunch of people have made them.
20:19 MrTrick if you were after a more production-ready printer, I'd recommend the ultimaker.
20:19 neorpheus im mainly after budget but id like the best res i can get, im gonna be cloning some resin cast model kits
20:24 MrTrick heh, like http://davedurant.wordpress.com/2011/10/12/ultimaker-faq-but-what-about-the-quality-of-prints/ ?
20:31 neorpheus omfg that is some high res prints
20:34 MrTrick I especially like the pic with the thumb. ^_^
20:35 neorpheus yeah, i was totaly amaze, i thought it was a towel or something at first
20:35 neorpheus amazed*
20:37 neorpheus it is my impression wit the repraps and such that they can be had for relatively free with the ability to print dam near everything but the control boards and motors/extruder, does that hold true with the utilimaker? it looks like there may be some laser cutting involved
20:41 MrTrick well, the repraps and similar are 'print out the gubbins that hold the rods/etc together'
20:41 MrTrick 'relatively free' isn't quite so accurate.
20:42 MrTrick The ultimaker, makerbot, cupcake types have a frame made out of laser-cut ply.
20:43 neorpheus ok perhaps i should have been a bit more clear, i have an arduino and a handful of old steppers but this alone does not a printer make, im hoping to apply what i have to a printer when it comes build time. im only 17 so im on a tight budget. no one gets rich working at mcdonalds
20:43 ace4016 lies!
20:43 ace4016 first you work there, then you manage it, then you own it, then you get rich
20:43 ace4016 :D
20:44 neorpheus haha, by the time you own it i dont think it counts as working for the company, its the compay working for you at that point
20:44 MrTrick by steppers do you mean proper ones? Or ones you ripped out of old printers?
20:45 MrTrick I wasted many hours in that direction, salvaging stuff from printers, imagining converting a scanner into an XY slide....
20:45 MrTrick Trust me, it's a waste of time.
20:45 neorpheus >.> *hesitant* sorta newer printers
20:45 orpheus h
20:45 MrTrick yeah, I still have a large collection of shitty stepper motors.
20:45 rue_house why are steppers that were preinstalled in equipment not real?
20:46 neorpheus ace4016, 1 flip burgers, 2 manage a store, 3 own the company, 4 ???????, 5 profit, right?
20:47 MrTrick rue_house: they're made specifically for the printer... at their top speed they go through a bunch of reduction gears and move the paper
20:47 rue_house not really, they have design paramiters, yes, everything does
20:47 ace4016 neorpheus, more or less :D
20:47 neorpheus haha
20:47 MrTrick The motor that drives the head back and forth isn't even a stepper motor anymore, they use a DC motor, a tape with encoding marks on it, and some deeply-baked motion control.
20:47 neorpheus im going to turn my lil bros NXT set into a printer woot!
20:48 orpheus runs off to confiscate l
20:48 MrTrick neorpheus: I had some money left over from doing some contracting last year (yay $85/hr), and I bought one of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/260824403993
20:49 rue_house its easy to control those motors
20:49 rue_house I'v done it a number of times
20:49 neorpheus MrTrick, thats pretty sweet but i dont see where cnc machine will be much use to me
20:49 MrTrick EXTREMELY worth it. The damn thing weighs 35kg, the stepper motors are *very* strong, the whole thing's built in aluminium and accurate down to ridiculous levels. No way could I have built it for myself.
20:50 MrTrick neorpheus: Moral of the story... don't think you can convert trash into treasure. As I said, I spent way too much time trying to build a CNC machine out of shitty parts.
20:50 rue_house MrTrick, dont think you can tell trash from NIB
20:51 rue_house MrTrick, you just weren't skilled at it
20:51 neorpheus i think im going to move ahead with the project if nothing else than as a waste of time until i can afford to roll with the big boys so to speak
20:51 MrTrick NIB?
20:51 rue_house you have to evaluate something used as a) working properly b) what it is, aka, its specs
20:51 rue_house New In Box
20:52 rue_house stuff thats 20 yrs old and has never been used
20:52 MrTrick Oh, there are plenty of nifty things I've salvaged from stuff, printer power supplies are great! (30VDC fun!)
20:52 rue_house just because 1 capacitors goes in a peice of equipment and someone throws the whole thing out, dosn't mean every part in that device is waste
20:52 rue_house 90% of the parts in everything disposed of works fine
20:53 neorpheus very true rue_house
20:53 MrTrick What I'm saying is, *specifically*: stepper motors from printers are not appropriate choices for a 3D printer, CNC mill, laser cutter, or anything similar. They just don't have enough torque.
20:53 rue_house most of the 10% can be easily distinguished
20:54 rue_house depends how you build it
20:54 orlok laser cutters and 3d printers need torque?
20:54 rue_house alot of dummies dont add proper counterbalancing to their mechanical designs, or have way more friction than they should
20:54 MrTrick orlok: Yes, for accelerating the head around at a decent speed.
20:54 neorpheus not enough torque for high speed maybe
20:54 rue_house stepper motors in general are NOT high speed devices, people thry to use them as such tho
20:55 neorpheus im not looking for speed, granted i dont want to wait a week for a print, but its the resolution im concerned with not speed
20:55 rue_house too many people dont know how to make a servo from a dc motor and an encoder
20:55 rue_house !assist projects/cnc/
20:55 tobbor Possibly http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/projects/cnc/
20:56 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/projects/cnc/p1030107.jpg
20:56 rue_house my cnc is all printer steppers
20:56 orlok hmm. that crackpot hasnt been here recently has he?
20:56 rue_house well, no, one axis is the head actuator from a hard drive
20:56 rue_house otherwise their all nema23 steppers from printers
20:57 MrTrick rue_house: nice.
20:57 MrTrick What printers come with nema23 steppers these days, though? O_o
20:57 rue_house but its too slow for almost anything
20:57 rue_house so my new one will use DC motors in servo loops
20:58 rue_house Xerox workcentres
20:58 rue_house :)
20:58 rue_house definitly not cheap little inkjets
20:58 rue_house motors are pretty small in those
20:59 MrTrick yeah, this kind: http://www.ladyada.net/images/mshield/bipolar.jpg
20:59 rue_house stepper motors are good when a) you dont need speed b) your being too lazy to have real position feedback
20:59 MrTrick Heh, I actually thought at one stage I could build a Z-axis using the stepper motor from a floppy drive.
20:59 rue_house I once did
20:59 neorpheus that motor u just linked to is actually very similiar to some of the ones i have on ahnd
20:59 neorpheus hand*
21:00 rue_house I suggest keeping them for moving small things
21:00 rue_house also, its hard to find a stepper that does 1.8 degrees now, most are 3.6
21:01 neorpheus might eventually use them for a bot or something
21:01 MrTrick rue_house: eh? Weird, most I see are 1.8, some are 0.9.
21:01 rue_house I have everything from .9 to 7.2
21:02 MrTrick those little printer steppers are usually 72 steps/rev, I think.
21:02 rue_house ...which are pretty lumpy motors
21:02 rue_house I have some nema23 plotter motors, 5 phase bipolar, dont know what they are
21:02 rue_house 10 wires!
21:02 neorpheus mine are almost all 72/rev
21:04 rue_house hmm
21:04 MrTrick neorpheus: Sorry if I'm coming across a bit harshly, but it's only because that's where I was a few years ago.
21:04 MrTrick 5 phase sounds like a bitch to drive. ^_^
21:04 rue_house most motors, in general, aren't much use without reduction of some kind
21:05 neorpheus oh no i totally understand but like i said, its more for a timekiller and to get accustommed to the tech than having hopes of building something great
21:05 rue_house I kept the driver boards
21:05 rue_house 20 transistors
21:05 neorpheus ill be back in a sec, its time for a smoke
21:06 MrTrick bad smoker. *thwap*
21:06 e_house tries to remember how to do bitfi
21:12 MrTrick neo_is_away: you know, you could make a cool flap display with cheap stepper motors.
21:13 rue_house or even a scroll one
21:18 MrTrick wow, that's cool and bizarre: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3D-Flower-Printer-/190686306982
21:19 neorpheus back
21:20 neorpheus MrTrick yeah i thought about that but ive fallen in love with nixies lately, when im done with the car i would love to have a a "digital" cluster display using nixies
21:23 MrTrick nixie tubes are cool, yes. :-)
21:26 rue_house 4Ghz quad core and you want a what?
21:28 rue_house I'm supposed to be calibrating temp on my cnc
21:28 rue_house er reprap
21:29 e_house wants to go to sleep, but that didn't work yeste
22:07 Trick has fingers cros
22:08 MrTrick I wish these guys would hurry up and get me to sign contracts... I've quoted them ~$10 grand to build them two robots
22:08 Trick wants $
22:09 Trick wants to build rob
22:19 tsmeow-afk ponders pulling the bad piston out of the bad cyl, and the otehr 2 over on that bank, and running the V6 like an inl
22:26 tsmeow-afk pondes the channel going dead when she sp
22:32 rue_house I was on the phone
22:32 rue_house but its ok, it didn't break
22:42 neorpheus lol. sorry, half afk
22:48 Trick glares at the supplier webs
22:48 MrTrick Argh, I just want a pulley set with a 1:4 reduction, and a 5mm bore on the small side. Is that so hard?
22:48 MrTrick http://www.smallparts.com.au/store/categories/2.0mm+Timing+Belts+and+Pulleys/
22:48 MrTrick (The answer, for those folks playing along at home, is YES!)
22:49 orlok never ordered from them
22:56 MrTrick my beef is that there's no good way to filter or search through it.
22:56 MrTrick nema 17 motors all seem to have 5mm shafts, but not many of the pulleys do - they're either 3mm or 4mm.
23:02 rue_house heh
23:03 neorpheus bore a 4mm out
23:05 MrTrick believe me, I'm tempted.
23:40 neorpheus it couldnt be hard, get a good bit and clamp the pulley down tight, would be even easier if you had access to a drill press
23:41 neorpheus im off for the night tho, ill have to come visit here again tho, everyone seems pretty cool and i may need help down the road when i start work on my super raptor
23:41 neorpheus nite
23:41 katsmeow-afk nite
23:45 MrTrick nite