#robotics Logs

Sep 12 2012

00:00 GuShH_ people seem to throw things away and just buy a new one when it doesn't work anymore
00:00 katsmeow-afk yep
00:00 katsmeow-afk like the two 7kw gennies
00:00 GuShH_ and It's obvious it all gets damaged due to lack of maintenance
00:01 katsmeow-afk course, they do have a few problems, but it's mostly electronics that need replacing
00:01 GuShH_ I wonder if US is the only place where being lazy is a factor on whether I'll service something or just buy a new one
00:01 GuShH_ wouldn't most people have a lot more money if they took good care of their things?
00:01 rue_house might wanna steelwool and grease that before it spreads?
00:01 GuShH_ or are they driven to work harder to replace the old stuff
00:02 GuShH_ but never actually gain anything by doing that
00:02 katsmeow-afk yeas, i got a bench built to set it on inside the house, getting it to the bench is an issue
00:02 rue_house oh:(
00:02 katsmeow-afk as long as it's outside, it's gonna deteriorate
00:02 GuShH_ I noticed a weed eater with electric start is being sold in the US and maybe some parts of europe...
00:02 GuShH_ why, WHY...
00:02 rue_house hah
00:02 GuShH_ it's heavier, got more servicable parts...
00:03 GuShH_ WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA
00:03 rue_house americans are too fat to pull the cord
00:03 katsmeow-afk the condensation is fierce on metals out there, the elevator shaft often rains, so does the underside of the driveway roof
00:03 GuShH_ and they still have a manual choke
00:03 GuShH_ ...
00:03 GuShH_ rue_house: it's got to have a battery and a starter, probably weighs at least half as much as the whole engine...
00:03 GuShH_ oh and a small gearbox perhaps
00:04 GuShH_ I think ryobi has one
00:04 katsmeow-afk small airmotor and a bottle of propane praps
00:04 GuShH_ rue_house: in some cases it could be useful, for instance if katsmeow-afk's big chainsaw had an electric start, it would be a lot more useful
00:04 ShH_ pictures a temporary start unit that you can attach just to get it sta
00:05 GuShH_ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCmVpyNZmJI
00:05 GuShH_ So what happens when it fails to start and they crank it until it strips the teeth or the battery goes flat? it suddenly becomes a "piece of shit"
00:06 rue_house and then we get it, a perfect engine for backup power on a robot
00:06 GuShH_ 30cc, 26cc... doesn't get any easier to start by pulling than those small displacement engines!
00:06 rue_house :)
00:07 GuShH_ so it uses a fairly big battery pack...
00:07 GuShH_ I wonder if it's compatible with any existing packs
00:07 rue_house robot already has one
00:07 rue_house it charges that battery somehow :)
00:08 GuShH_ rue_house: this is rather stupid, you still have to manual prime and manual choke...
00:08 rue_house I'm sorry I havn't finished connecting a weedeater motor to an alternator yet
00:08 rue_house no, use a winshield wiper ...
00:08 GuShH_ so removing the pulling from the equation is rather pointless.
00:08 rue_house oops I forgot to reconnect the water sprayer on the truck
00:08 katsmeow-afk you obviously have never had a bad back
00:09 GuShH_ someone who isn't capable of physically pulling it may not be able to physically carry the extra weight either, IMO
00:09 GuShH_ katsmeow-afk: they are not targeting you.
00:09 GuShH_ and my back hurts every day
00:09 rue_house sit back and watch my backup files copy for a while
00:09 rue_house then I'm off to bed, cause I'm late
00:10 ShH_ keeps watching the v
00:11 katsmeow-afk when your back *hurts*, you cannot sit upright, you cannot bend, you cannot roll over in bed, you do not eat so you don't need to restroom, you cannot lift anything heavier than a sammich (and even then you need two hands), etc
00:11 GuShH_ love how they always depict incompetence when they compare their product with other's
00:11 rue_house witha P1-150 on the recieving end, I think that compressing the file copy stream is just slowing things down
00:11 GuShH_ katsmeow-afk: depends on the injury
00:11 tsmeow-afk gives up and says
00:12 rue_house hmm 72M of data in my inbox...
00:13 GuShH_ katsmeow-afk: I said, while it may be helpful to some people who can't physically pull-start a big engine (these are NOT big, 26cc, 29cc) I find it more of a gimmick in this case than anything else
00:13 rue_house oh the fragle rock theme song....
00:13 GuShH_ And the unit they depict as the "lesser, other product" actually has a more sane design with an external starter...
00:14 katsmeow-afk hmm, Tiggr is reading up on what Ephestia cautella, Plodia interpunctella, and Corcyra cephalonica are
00:15 katsmeow-afk furrywolf has been idle 457hrs 5mins 33secs, signed on Thu Aug 23 22:57:51
00:16 rue_house at what point does the accumulation of my life overwhelm me?
00:16 rue_house it opens me up to 'disaster' where I lose it all
00:17 katsmeow-afk ideally, your brain expands to cover your life, and what does will leak out and disappear so it won't concern you
00:17 rue_house stuff too
00:18 rue_house I drag with me, things from all time of my being human
00:19 rue_house at some point a castle cannot get higher without recieving a larger base
00:20 rue_house wow, over 100M in the sent box
00:21 rue_house 150M?
00:21 GuShH_ sent some naughty pictures recently?
00:21 rue_house prety sure its all text
00:22 rue_house it goes back to like 1998 or something
00:22 rue_house its going for ~200M
00:23 GuShH_ yey
00:24 rue_house 210M
00:24 rue_house prolly more in the "junkmail-old" folder
00:25 rue_house its interesting to run statistics on a 8 year period of junkmail
00:25 rue_house gnight
00:25 GuShH_ viagra anyone?
00:25 rue_house no I'm off to bed
00:26 tsmeow-afk waves gnites
00:27 rue_livingrm gnights
00:27 rue_livingrm er, no
00:43 GuShH_ http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120719103225.htm
00:43 GuShH_ neat
02:12 Kiiwinki So
02:14 Kiiwinki Why Mechanical, Electrical and Psychology?
02:15 Kiiwinki Personally, I find all three interesting. It's just that I did not perhaps expect to see three lumped under the same classification on the topic of an IRC channel
02:16 Kiiwinki Does the connection between the three exist on a vague level of semiotics and cybernetics?
02:18 Kiiwinki I would say that this seems like a fairly reasonable route of association to make, but I've also noticed that the semiotics and cybernetics are pretty much relevant to everything
02:19 Kiiwinki So it might very well be that I'm just making unfounded associations out of some deep disturbance resulting from insufficient data
02:20 Kiiwinki And for such insufficiency to so harshly greet my arrival
02:21 Kiiwinki I'm trying to figure out how to indicate mock shivering without looking like an idiot
02:21 Kiiwinki ^ Success
02:21 anannie Kiiwinki: Interesting, please remember that I don't know enough to comment authoratively
02:21 Kiiwinki Authoritatively, maybe
02:21 Kiiwinki checking
02:22 Kiiwinki Yes
02:22 anannie Kiiwinki: I'm dyslexic and tired...
02:22 Kiiwinki And I'm obsessive and on speed
02:22 Kiiwinki Actually, this seems like an interesting channel for once
02:22 Kiiwinki Might try to restrain my behaviour
02:23 Kiiwinki Don't really like the idea of getting banned from a channel that later turned out to be one I would have very much liked to have participated in
02:24 Kiiwinki Oh
02:24 Kiiwinki Uh - I'm not being intentionally dyslexia-unfriendly by the way
02:25 Kiiwinki I just... have a really difficult time avoiding the temptation of trying out every verbal trick I can think of
02:25 Kiiwinki Hm
02:26 Kiiwinki I actually came here in search of someone with formal tranining in psychology or sociology
02:26 anannie Kiiwinki: Are you bipolar? You seem to be manic
02:28 Kiiwinki I wrote what I found to be an interesting essay, purely in terms of enjoyment derived during writing. Seems to possess some vague psychology-related attributes, and I would be interested in a professional opinion as to just how far my shit is from any modicum of... valid psychological point-making
02:28 Kiiwinki Oh, I'm just really high
02:29 Kiiwinki I find that I do not particularly enjoy writing as a recreational activity if not
02:30 Kiiwinki Kind of don't feel inclined to make any actual claims as to what is the ultimate cause of this tendency, so I'm just going to leave it at that very concrete observation of somewhat strong correlation
02:31 Kiiwinki Uh
02:31 Kiiwinki So, anyway
02:33 Kiiwinki If anyone formally trained in the ways of psychology happens to be present, I would appreciate it if a quick look might be awarded to it, maybe out of some general sense of social obligation for obliging a stranger's non-committing request
02:35 Kiiwinki Well, well - don't think I've ever really recognised the etymological connection between "obligation" and "oblige"
02:35 Kiiwinki Even though there does not actually seem to be any connection beyond a common root in latin
02:37 Kiiwinki In my defense, there doesn't appear to be anyone actively present right now; so, technically, I can't be bothering anyone with my mindless drivel
02:39 Kiiwinki (By the way - I find it mildly ironic that I used the wording "obliging a stranger's non-committing request", considering that the word "to oblige" seems to derive from what in latin means "to bind")
02:40 Kiiwinki Ok - I'm leaving
02:41 Kiiwinki Going to come back at some point. If anyone feels the inexplicable need to respond to any of my shit, I'll be reading my backlog when I get back. Some of my shit I would actually like to receive replies for
02:52 Kiiwinki Goddamnit. I just realised how shamelessly I semiconsciously used the lame trick of self-deprecation as a means of tipping the balance more towards sympathy
02:52 Kiiwinki Sorry for that
02:55 Kiiwinki Acts of abject humanity, I dare say
08:58 rue_house Kiiwinki, hi
08:58 rue_house over the next hour or so, we all wake up
11:41 tsmeow-afk sttttrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeettttttttcccccchhhhhhhhhhhh
11:44 katsmeow-afk Kiiwinki , if there are any robot professionals in this channel, they have kept quiet
11:46 katsmeow-afk as far as lumping electrical, mechanical, and psychological together, 99.9999% of people "in robotics" are still pre-1955 stage of robotics, and as you prolly know, the software people stay aloof from the mechanics, and the wetware people think both shold be committed
11:47 katsmeow-afk most people here cannot build their own stepper drivers, don't have a clear working knowledge of pneumatics or hydraulics (forget about hybrids), and feel free to anthropomorphize anything that moves
11:48 katsmeow-afk me, i'm just sorta broken up and useless
11:48 katsmeow-afk there's a few here who demonstrate knowledge and the desire to *do* and to learn
11:49 katsmeow-afk many are held back by finances or pressures from other humans
11:51 katsmeow-afk atm, i see robotics as one universe with maybe 5 stars and the rest is dark matter, and then the same for mechanical systems and Ai, and there's not anything linking the universes except the occasional exploding star at MIT
11:51 tsmeow-afk vacates the soapbox for another spe
11:57 tsmeow-afk hands Kiiwinki an url demonstrating the confusing hyper-optomism of Ai (and robotics in general) : http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/zq56m/im_dr_ben_goertzel_artificial_general/
11:58 katsmeow-afk what is does not address is the way business is happy to burn thru enormous capital and not show product, and the general populace is damned xenophobic (so you never get close to the (uncanny valley")
12:02 tsmeow-afk points to the removeal of pilot oxygen supply in the F-22 to save $1million on the purchase price (after all, it's an airplane, if you wanna put a pilot into it, that's your probl
12:04 wizaqua yes
12:04 wizaqua Goertzel appeared on reddit
12:04 wizaqua and actually interacted with us
12:04 wizaqua I am a huge huge fan
12:04 wizaqua however, there was one post he made that was raising my alarm bells of suspicion
12:07 wizaqua ill interpret your silence to mean you are not interested in which post that was!
12:10 katsmeow-afk no, i was -afk, as my nick says
12:10 katsmeow-afk it's a fault of biology: i was in the "restroom"
12:11 wizaqua katsmeow-afk so
12:12 katsmeow-afk while there, i reminded of fission nuke electricity being too cheap to meter, which is not the way commerce works in the usa, so the companies involved make up their money up front: overcharges and overages during construction
12:12 wizaqua the post he made was something about "I don't know what I a mathematical theory of intelligence will look like" and then he starts listing category theory, topo theory, and a bunch of other branches of math
12:12 wizaqua (let me find it and copy pasta)
12:13 katsmeow-afk bad concrete, bad rebar, bad construction practices, bad plumbing, bad routing of systems, bad training, anything to raise the cost and make money so they can then have a basis to meter that "too cheap to meter" electricity
12:14 katsmeow-afk there is no way in hell that fusion electricity will ever be made commercially, no power company anywhere will ever consider duplicating the existing fusion energy systems
12:15 katsmeow-afk it's the same way with robotics, if robots are to be viable(?), they'll haveto use subtrefuge and make themselves
12:15 wizaqua kats woah.
12:15 katsmeow-afk ok
12:16 zaqua hands kats a soap box and a megap
12:16 katsmeow-afk i feel i am correct, untill i see proof i am not
12:16 katsmeow-afk i reconsider my conclusions regularly, and modify as needed
12:17 katsmeow-afk in the 1960's, Japan has a working lower-half of the modern Petman, and got nowhere commercially with it
12:18 katsmeow-afk in the 1970's, the guy working Petman had hopping robots that outran any legged animal, and could carry more, but all we have now is that mule
12:19 katsmeow-afk there's no interaction as far as i can see between petman and MIT robotics/Ai community
12:19 wizaqua alright kats
12:19 wizaqua here is the entire goertzel post
12:19 wizaqua "I would love to create a genuinely useful mathematical theory of general intelligence. I'm unsure what the ingredients would be. Maybe a mix of category theory, probability theory, differential geometry, topos theory, algorithmic information theory, information geometry -- plus other stuff not yet invented. Math tends not to be confusing or baffling to me; it's the rest of the world that's
12:19 wizaqua more confusing because it's ambiguous and NOT math ;p"
12:19 katsmeow-afk there's other companies doing petman look-alikes (but they are not clones, which makes them interesting)
12:20 katsmeow-afk yeas, <sigh>
12:20 wizaqua now that you have read that
12:20 wizaqua allow me to explain my lingering suspicions about that post goertzel made
12:21 wizaqua in particular this part --> "I'm unsure what the ingredients would be. "
12:22 tsmeow-afk would take a virtual crowbar and large hammer and get Ben to see there is no way to make a reliable computer emulate an illogical fucked-up human, but maybe the computer can be the real next evolutionary step to be *better* than humans, in which case STOP TRYING TO EMULATE HU
12:23 katsmeow-afk do you want your Ai to emulate humans? you really want i to fall in love, put on diapers, drive 500 miles, with intent to beat up a fellow astronaut?
12:24 katsmeow-afk do you want your Ai to have great plans, watch the general populace express ire and active sabatoge, and do a Push Sing or Kensey on themselves?
12:24 wizaqua yeah... I will respond to everything you are saying its just that you are very /fast/ and aggressively spinning the topic
12:24 wizaqua let me get out what I wanted to say about the above /suspicious/ post goertzel made
12:24 katsmeow-afk k
12:25 tsmeow-afk wonders if some of this wouldn't make a better mess of irc in #
12:26 wizaqua Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the case that Goerztel and the rest of the OPenCog people... haven't they committed themselves to the a particular mathematical theory of GI? And is not this committment that the math theory of GI is Probabilistic Logic Network?
12:26 katsmeow-afk they go DAYS without talking in there
12:26 katsmeow-afk i quit following *cyc and *cog a few yrs ago
12:27 wizaqua I mean, from my perspective, they have not only "proposed" this as a math theory of intelligence, but are no openly committed to it.
12:27 wizaqua oops
12:27 wizaqua I mean, from my perspective, they have not only "proposed" this as a math theory of intelligence, but are now* openly committed to it.
12:27 wizaqua Okay well it looks like you are not going to try to "correct me if im wrong" ---
12:27 katsmeow-afk i am thinking
12:28 wizaqua So given what I have said is /true/ , why is Ben Goertzel running around on reddit saying he is "unsure what the ingredient would be"
12:28 katsmeow-afk i cannot explain him, he is human
12:28 wizaqua I love Ben Goertzel. He is my intellectual superior. He is an accomplished author of many books.
12:28 wizaqua But this is making me itch like mad.
12:29 katsmeow-afk many idiots have written books, that prooves nothing (not calling Ben an idiot, just that publishing prooves nothing)
12:30 katsmeow-afk i wish i did not have dysnomia, i could throw out a few names i believe could help the Ai in various ways, but aren't
12:31 katsmeow-afk i believe he may not have a grip on the ingredients for two reasons: they are illogical, or the concept has been corrupted in practice by humans
12:32 katsmeow-afk it's also possible the granularity of the known data is too coarse
12:33 wizaqua I'm saying that not only do they have a "grip on the ingredients" but PLNs are the ingredients and they actively committed to this model. So im just a little shocked and confused by this statement.
12:33 wizaqua Now-- I am not personally /advocating/ PLNs... I am just saying that the openCog team has committed themselves to them.
12:34 tsmeow-afk
12:35 katsmeow-afk re granularity: i could find nothing online that located the human nose or ears to a general area on the head, and my google-fu isn't bad
12:36 katsmeow-afk i found stuff like "the nose is on the face" , but then the face could occupy 90% of the head?
12:36 wizaqua kats are you uhm... working yourself up in a fine lather to defend the Embodied Cognition approach to AI?
12:37 wizaqua Because you are preaching the choir if you are
12:37 katsmeow-afk or "milking cows take advantage of the cow's rumanent stomach", nevermind many other mammals give milk with only one stomach
12:37 tsmeow-afk appolog
12:38 wizaqua In a nutshell -- are you trying to say that you don't like OPencog (and "cyc" you said) because they are not committed to embodied situateted agents? YEs?
12:38 katsmeow-afk thinking
12:39 katsmeow-afk mostly, not entirely
12:40 katsmeow-afk for a sightless computer to manipulate colors, it's like a human manipulating advanced calculus symbology, it's a rare ability, i don't know that a team of humans furiously coding at $2million/month can force any system to do it well
12:40 katsmeow-afk it's not like mathcad etc
12:41 katsmeow-afk plus, men/women/dogs/bees see color differently
12:43 katsmeow-afk you and the computer can agree that "this" is "a color", but you may not see the same thing, or see it the same n different situations
12:43 katsmeow-afk in that way, i am for Embodied Intelligence
12:44 katsmeow-afk i think for every rule built into a system today, there is an exception that is not coded for
12:45 katsmeow-afk but i think that using probability to deal with it is the wrong path
12:45 wizaqua ah ys
12:46 wizaqua My defense of the embodied approach has everything to do with the meanings of the symbols used in the internal representation
12:46 katsmeow-afk to me, throwing money at the problem is akin to throwing money at a corn field when it's dying of drought
12:46 wizaqua those symbols do not refer to objects (only adult philosophers think like that about objects).... what the word "tree" refers to is the human experience with a tree.
12:47 wizaqua ..which is pretty much what you just said
12:47 katsmeow-afk words often have more than one (sometimes overlapping) meanings
12:49 Kiiwinki Speaking of meanings
12:49 Kiiwinki http://pastebin.com/ZAJmzvua
12:49 Kiiwinki Here's something excreted last night
12:50 Kiiwinki I think a valid point or two might've slipped in
12:56 katsmeow-afk in the arena of human politics (mentioned in http://pastebin.com/ZAJmzvua), as practiced, there's also lies, money, pundits, and attention span to contend with
12:56 wizaqua Well
12:57 wizaqua let me just add this with a warning
12:57 wizaqua what im about to say is highly "philosophical"
12:57 katsmeow-afk unless you program the computer with the same problems humans have in their programming and biology, the computer will never properly emulate the human, and if you *can* emulate the human then the computer *will* have mental breakdowns at many Ghz of cpu clock speed
12:57 wizaqua but the world around us.. the world outside your head is not composed of objects at all to begin with. What is outside you is chemical substances formed into crystaline solids.
12:58 wizaqua It is only be means of the categories and barriers of language/culture that these substances are broken into objects
12:58 katsmeow-afk "crystaline" has a meaning, do you mean that?
12:58 Kiiwinki wizaqua: I thought it was electrical fields down the electron scale
12:59 Kiiwinki down to*
12:59 katsmeow-afk umm, ok, i use different words: things are : processes thru time
12:59 Kiiwinki ProcesseS?
12:59 Kiiwinki Plural?
12:59 katsmeow-afk things as we know them are limited to our ways of describing them
12:59 Kiiwinki I'm think you're going to run into some epistemological problems with defining the distinction
13:00 wizaqua katsmeow-afk Follow what im saying here... 40+ years of machine vision has assumed that these boundaries between Objects are determined solely by geometrical relationships. That is partially a lie. Geometry and statistics gets only half of this story. The other half (ignored by academic AI for 40 years) is that language/culture then form out the boundaries
13:00 katsmeow-afk yeas, i am a process going on, you are also
13:01 wizaqua Machine visin people have assumed that geometry and statistics ALONE can build a bridge all the way up to a meaningful scene of 3D objects. Oh no. It ony builds the bridge half way. The rest of if must be filled with language/culture
13:01 Kiiwinki katsmeow-afk: It appears that you are attempting the making of a point or somesuch. Could you enlighten as to what this point concerns?
13:01 Kiiwinki enlighten us*
13:01 katsmeow-afk wizaqua, i agree, but at some point/line, you haveto reduce the problem to the hardware, and interpretation by the software, and those two camps of people don't talk to each other
13:01 Kiiwinki Pardon, katsmeow-afk
13:01 Kiiwinki Meant to direct that to wizaqua
13:01 katsmeow-afk ok
13:02 Kiiwinki Actually, nevermind
13:02 Kiiwinki I was confating people again
13:02 Kiiwinki People suck
13:02 tsmeow-afk awaits wiz
13:02 wizaqua If you look at it, there is nothing in nature that really defines the word "war" and saying countrieds are "at war" is blatant metaphorical poetic talk
13:03 katsmeow-afk yeas, "cold war" "war on drugs", "WW2"
13:03 Kiiwinki wizaqua: Unless the obvious leap of interpretation is taken, and "countries" is taken to be synonymous with the people of said country
13:03 wizaqua A "war" is therefore, almost exclusively determined by LANGUAGE/CULTURE and a robot that views the world only through a lens of bayesian statistics would find it utterly meaningless
13:03 Kiiwinki peoples of said countries...
13:03 katsmeow-afk many people of said countries are not warriors, and may be against the effort
13:04 katsmeow-afk there''s an exception thing and a granularity issue
13:04 wizaqua These word's meanings are never pinnned down or segregated by geometry or bayesian statistics. They are meaningful only to humans whose minds are caught in a whirlwind of linguisto-cultural interactions.
13:05 Kiiwinki You're getting awfully close to a concrete jungle of indistinctions, katsmeow-afk
13:05 katsmeow-afk lol
13:05 wizaqua Language and culture have been so built up through history and transmission from generation to generation, that its current form is mostly a bunch of fantasy.
13:06 Kiiwinki Perhaps it is not such an unreasonable leap of interpretation (again) to assume that "country" in the sense of "country A is at war" is synonymous with "the state of this country"
13:06 Kiiwinki And, as an additional leap of interpretation, perhaps it's not unreasonable to assume some level of representation betwee the state and the people
13:06 katsmeow-afk it's not only not unreasonable, it's required
13:06 Kiiwinki I guess we don't have a problem then
13:07 katsmeow-afk we may not, but hunams do, and the progress of AI does
13:07 wizaqua Basically what I'm saying is this ---> Word's meanings are determined by language/culture. But language/culture is itself a product of huge historical spans of nations. You just aint gonna "enter" that into a computer
13:08 wizaqua Not ga dah (as Dana Carvey would say)
13:08 Kiiwinki Oh
13:08 Kiiwinki Well, goddamnit
13:08 katsmeow-afk not a fan of Dana Carvey, but i agree
13:09 Kiiwinki Did not even realise that this conversation had to do with accurate interpretation of words in a boolean environment
13:09 Kiiwinki In defense, I'm experiencing nasty amphetamine comedown, and have not slept in many days
13:09 katsmeow-afk ah, but it does, the methods of dealing with that in a computer, and forcing the computer to do it in the same way humans do
13:10 katsmeow-afk i am severely multitasking atm, and have things to do irl
13:10 wizaqua In particular "Deep learning networks" staring at millions of slices of data won't ever ever ever find these boundaries. These boundaries are determined by culture. And culture is determined by huge epochs of time of groups of human beings jockeying socialy with each other.
13:11 katsmeow-afk and if the computer ever read all of human history, it still won't think like a human, in fact i believe it will try very hard to not think like a human
13:12 wizaqua Private property, kings, democracy, warfare... Hitler... Goebells, media... TV.. perceptions of truth. The relationship between science and technology... the relationship between human rights and governments. These are the "social jockeyings" that are bequethed to us by culture. You don't find these things by using bayesian statistics.
13:13 wizaqua And those "social jockeyings" are what determine the MEANINGS OF WORDS!
13:14 katsmeow-afk and so much more
13:16 katsmeow-afk merely saying a word conveys meaning, such as saying "raod" , or "chewbacca?", if you can divine the meaning
13:16 wizaqua Only by "living and learning" and interacting with other human beings... establishing boundaries... fighting, loving, and friending and de-friending. That is the "Raw data" upon which culture is established.
13:19 katsmeow-afk you want your computer to have the same culture as you? what if it doesn't evolve as you do thru time?
13:19 wizaqua kats
13:19 wizaqua lets take the most blatant example
13:19 wizaqua "nation"
13:19 wizaqua Allegedly these things called "nations" have boundaries. Although you won't see any of these "boundaries" from orbit
13:21 wizaqua many of the objects in the room in which you sit now.... their meanings are often deeply connected to a manufacturing process
13:21 wizaqua Go back to Britannia in 950 AD.
13:22 wizaqua At that time, Britain did not exist and it was an island with a bunch of germanic tribes called Normans and Saxxons and "aengels"
13:22 wizaqua To those tribal humans at that time the word "manufacturing" would have no meaning. And there would be no way to explain it to them.
13:22 wizaqua (think about it)
13:22 katsmeow-afk done
13:23 tsmeow-afk looks for wizaqua's "gofast" bu
13:23 katsmeow-afk can i shorten your point by saying "record player" ?
13:24 wizaqua >_>
13:25 katsmeow-afk it's just that things irl need tending to, and i cannot sit here and tend them, i must be away
13:25 katsmeow-afk else, i'd sit here
13:25 katsmeow-afk you can keep talking, i will read later
13:25 katsmeow-afk bbl
13:26 wizaqua buh
13:47 Kiiwinki So
13:49 Kiiwinki Here's this thing http://pastebin.com/vzZw6VaY
13:49 Kiiwinki Wrote it last night
13:50 Kiiwinki I'm pretty sure there two or three good points ni
14:02 sw0rdfish hmmmmmmmm
14:13 Kiiwinki Also, it's not supposed to be a "serious" essay
14:13 Kiiwinki I just write these for my own amusement
14:14 Kiiwinki on amphetamine binges...
14:15 Kiiwinki There just seemed to be... an actual point or something this time
14:18 haryv does anyone here know if there is a way the durino board can measure PH levels in soil and send the info remotely?
14:18 haryv ie, is there a ph sensor that can be attached to the board?
14:18 Kiiwinki Arduino?
14:18 haryv yes sorry the Arduino board
14:20 Kiiwinki Looks like ph probes aren't exactly cheap
14:20 haryv got a link?
14:20 Kiiwinki $80 even for a kit
14:20 Kiiwinki https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10972
14:20 Kiiwinki Oh, wait
14:20 Kiiwinki $94
14:20 Kiiwinki ffs - 95
14:21 haryv robotic drone can use gps data, and test kit to go up and down rows and measure the ph level then show a color map of what areas of a crop is low or high.
14:23 haryv We have a problem with zuccini flower rot. If its not picked, it will die and then it will start to rot..which spreads to the zuccini its self. I wonder if machine vision code can pick out the yellow flower, then a mechanical arm can pick it off.
14:42 rue_house I got a plan to use opencv to find and rescue dandilions from the yard
14:42 rue_house by flower
14:45 haryv rue, try on the order of 1,000 aceres
14:47 chris_99 you need to calibrate Ph senses too iirc, using little sachets of liquids
14:47 chris_99 *sensors
14:48 haryv true
14:48 chris_99 you could probably use blob detection to find the flowers
14:49 haryv I do have a handheld electronic ph tester. Its encased in its shell. I really do not think the same company would just sell me a batch load if testing goes into production some day.
14:49 haryv But the idea is interesting and possibly a cost saver for the farmer.
14:50 chris_99 what you could do is hack the LCD data lines
14:50 chris_99 of your handheld
14:50 chris_99 to get it's output to a microcontroller
14:51 haryv Or machine vision to read the LCD output. I once saw that same setup at fluke inc.
14:52 haryv It may be even better to go that route in the event the ph tester dies. Pull out the old one, put in the new one. Farmer could do that! No need to call a tech to change the sensor.
14:52 rue_house ph sensing is easy
14:52 rue_house use a ph strip and measure the colour
14:53 rue_house you can get like 2 books of 100 stips for like $1
14:53 haryv rue, I am talking about ph automation
14:53 rue_house yea, make a robot to sample and read
14:54 haryv then use a gps cordinate to record the location and data.
14:54 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/robots/abspos/position_scanner.html
14:55 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/robots/abspos/code/problem.html
14:55 rue_house or http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/robots/abspos/problem.html
14:55 rue_house only one was up to date
14:56 chris_99b what's that rue_house
14:56 haryv rue, are those parts from hp printers?
14:56 rue_house parts from all things
14:56 rue_house printer and spaceship alike
14:57 haryv so he created a laser scanner
14:58 rue_house its not done yet
14:58 rue_house the detector was being a problem
15:00 haryv I can see a laser used to keep the wheels of a robot on center over a row of plants. It would take the hight min/max and find a range that the ground should fall into vs. the laser hitting the leaves.
15:00 haryv how so?
15:00 rue_house need to have a tall detector
15:01 rue_house I have a solution that might work, but I have to go back to work, bye!
15:02 haryv rue, who owns this link ?
16:28 katsmeow-afk link?
16:29 katsmeow-afk oh 3:51:56pm 09/12/12 Wednesday haryv Remote host closed the connection .
17:10 katsmeow-afk http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19567351
20:26 katsmeow-afk i just got the lower crankcase skirt off the Mercruiser V6 engine i picked up for $35, looks like one of the crank throw enclosures was used to filter lake water next to a shore
20:26 katsmeow-afk it's got the kind of small lightweight floaty debris you'd see next to a swamp in it
20:27 katsmeow-afk i haven't dropped the crank out yet, so i can't see how much bearing damage there is there, but even if it's severe, i'm making it into a steam engine, loss of one cylinder is merely a loss in torque if i can clamp on a compensating ballance weight
21:19 rue_bed kat, do you always go to bed to try to get to sleep?
21:21 Tom_itx i sleep wherever my body says stop
21:22 rue_bed my body dosn't say stop, it just stops listening to my mind saying 'go'
21:22 Tom_itx got more lids milled
21:23 Tom_itx was gonna screen print but i found that i forgot to mill the lids first
21:23 Tom_itx so i had to back up a step
21:25 katsmeow-afk i try to sleep in bed at certain approved times, but i seldom succeedd
21:25 rue_bed tiny26 is about 1.40 maybe I should use them for step sequence genorators
21:25 rue_bed katsmeow-afk, maybe the bed is the problem I sleep great in my computer chair and I dont even ahve to try
21:26 rue_bed then I go to bed and toss/turn all night
21:26 Tom_itx rue_bed
21:26 Tom_itx i bet the t10 would work for that
21:26 rue_bed yes?
21:26 Tom_itx how many pins do you need?
21:26 rue_bed no
21:26 Tom_itx it's got a nice 16bit timer
21:26 katsmeow-afk praps the bed is faulty, or the noise up there is all wrong, cheapest is to try different noise
21:26 rue_bed 4 output and 2 input
21:26 rue_bed +power
21:26 Tom_itx forget it then
21:26 Tom_itx you get 4
21:43 rue_bed I'm pouring a lot of effort into trying to diagnose my life
21:43 Tom_itx stop trying
21:43 Tom_itx by the time you figure it out, it will be over
21:43 rue_bed maybe not, I'v figured out a lot so far
21:44 rue_bed the challange is that to diagnose somehting, you need to know how its supposed to work and how it is working
21:44 Tom_itx you still lookin for little rue's running around?
21:44 rue_bed I think both are a bit sketchy
21:44 rue_bed I'm trying to work out if thats how its uspposed to work
21:44 rue_bed like I say, sketchy
21:45 rue_bed I beleive there are multiple solutions
21:45 rue_bed maybe solution is the wrong word
21:45 Tom_itx multiple paths but only one will be a reality
21:46 rue_bed no, I think its possable to succeed on any path, its possable to fail too
21:46 rue_bed the number of failures possable is infinite, but the solutions are finite
21:47 rue_bed dont get a lot of time to figure it out
21:47 rue_bed I have a habbit of succeeding just after the nick of time
21:47 rue_bed maybe I grow out of that
21:48 sherlock Tom_itx: Yaknow domain names are like...five bucks
21:49 rue_bed reallyshortfivedollardomainnames.com?
21:49 sherlock yeah
21:49 Tom_itx u don't like how mine is?
21:50 sherlock There are three things I dont like about it :P Port 81, dyndns, and /~webpage :P its totally ligit
21:50 rue_bed uniquedomainnamesthatarentalreadytaken.com?
21:50 sherlock idk, I got my first name and the first letter of my last name .ca
21:50 rue_bed sherlock, he is serving from home,
21:50 rue_bed thats why the 81
21:50 rue_bed he SHOULD NOT have used 81
21:51 Tom_itx well it's 81 because my isp blocks 80
21:51 sherlock ahhhh
21:51 sherlock thats silly
21:51 rue_bed dyndns is becuase he is running from home, works the the dynamic IP
21:51 rue_bed he should have used 82
21:51 Tom_itx why?
21:51 rue_bed 81 is blocked by a lot of isps cause its a http proxy port
21:52 Tom_itx if i changed it now everyone wouldn't know where it went
21:52 rue_bed and the ~webpage thing is just cause of the way he set up the server
21:52 sherlock Yeah but....
21:52 rue_bed you should start a 2 year migration
21:52 sherlock Its been like that for a few years
21:52 Tom_itx or just take it down
21:52 sherlock iirc
21:52 rue_bed sherlock, buy him space on a webserver
21:53 rue_bed I'm sure if you pay for the server, he will pay for a domain name
21:53 sherlock What does he IRC from?
21:53 Tom_itx does the content suck too?
21:53 rue_bed sherlock, some of us have more than 1 computer
21:53 sherlock As do I?
21:53 Tom_itx like 10 or more
21:53 sherlock thats why I dont irc from my computer?
21:53 rue_bed I'v got 12 24/7 machines
21:53 sherlock ah
21:54 e_bed cracks his knuc
21:54 Tom_itx it's how he heats his house
21:54 sherlock With the power bill on that I bet you could get a cheapo dedi
21:54 sherlock unmanaged
21:54 sherlock but if it doubles as heating
21:54 sherlock wellllll
21:55 rue_bed firewall, home automation, phone system, boiler controller, main computer, laptop on the bed, shop fileserver, shop jukebox, shop workstation, shop workstation
21:55 rue_bed is that 12?
21:55 rue_bed its 11
21:55 Tom_itx 10
21:55 sherlock Do you still have the one with temperature sensors around the house?
21:56 rue_bed that the automation machine
21:56 sherlock ahh, right
21:56 rue_bed it waters the garden too
21:56 Tom_itx no
21:56 Tom_itx my sensors are unplugged
21:56 sherlock I meant rue
21:56 rue_bed and controls the heating system
21:56 Tom_itx we both had them at one time
21:56 sherlock ahh
21:56 e_bed tries to remmeber where the last 2
21:56 sherlock didnt recall that, must not have been around then
21:57 Tom_itx i sent him some boards for his sensors cause he got the wrong ones
21:57 rue_bed 2 in closet, one in fireshed, 3 in bedroom, 5 in shop
21:57 rue_bed 11 again
21:57 sherlock and then the feds come knocking on your door thinking you have a grow-op?
21:58 rue_bed Tom_itx, they are working great by the way
21:58 rue_bed I'm in canada
21:58 sherlock ik, we have feds in canada
21:58 sherlock the RCMP can come riding up to your door on their horses
21:58 rue_bed I know 3 grow ops around here
21:58 rue_bed pretty sure their legal
21:58 rue_bed no, court changed that
21:59 sherlock well, not in ontario
21:59 rue_bed it used to be that the fire dept could get the process going
21:59 sherlock afaik
21:59 rue_bed ontario and quebec aren't like the rest of canada
21:59 sherlock hehe
21:59 rue_bed esp quebec
22:00 sherlock well, quebec was declared a nation within a nation
22:00 sherlock whatever that means
22:00 rue_bed is that why they get to hold their own elections and shoot their polititions?
22:01 sherlock idk, we need them for their exports of wood and maple
22:01 rue_bed equal rights damnit, I want to be able to shoot polititians too
22:02 rue_bed I want to start at H
22:02 sherlock by lastname?
22:02 rue_bed duh
22:02 sherlock gotcha
22:03 rue_bed if steve jobs were to come back to life and become priminister, nobody would notice
22:04 rue_bed (the difference)
22:04 rue_bed aaanyhow, best NOT to get me on about politics
22:05 rue_bed imagine if it were required that everyone over the age of 15, once a year, had to make one thing and export it
22:07 sherlock there would be a business who makes stuff and exports it for you then
22:07 sherlock inverse walmart
22:25 rue_bed cool idea
22:39 katsmeow-afk ok, i got 5 decent pistons out of 6, 5 decent cylinders out of 6, all the wrist pins sound full of sand, the crank end bearings/seals are seized with rust, the connecting rod - to - cranks ends are mostly shot from rust/corrosion, several rod end roller bearings are shot from rust/corrosion
22:39 katsmeow-afk somehow, water from the jacket got into one cylinder, complete with floaty debis that should have been filtered out in the foot
22:40 katsmeow-afk one piston and one cylinder are badly scored on one side
22:40 rue_bed hmm
22:40 katsmeow-afk the pistons are ~3 1/8 inch , i got 5
22:41 rue_bed I wonder how I would do the valvework
22:41 katsmeow-afk on what?
22:41 rue_bed a steam engine
22:42 katsmeow-afk water/steam ball valves, till you determined it was a worthwhile endeavour to spend more on better valves
22:45 rue_bed bistable overcentre switching
22:51 katsmeow-afk cool, there is steel DOM tubing with 3.125 ID and various wall thicknesses
23:00 katsmeow-afk Silence is Golden, Duct tape is Silver
23:03 ace4016 kinky
23:07 rue_bed good one kat