#robotics Logs

Jul 05 2012

00:26 furrywolf why do people feel the need to waste thousands of rounds of perfectly good ammo just because it's be stupid day?
00:26 katsmeow-afk humans!
00:39 GuShH shoot back.
00:42 ferdna can anyone tell me the differences between using a 2.4Ghz Radio frequency vs 2.4 Wifi?
00:43 furrywolf can you tell me the difference between an automobile and a car?
00:48 ferdna furrywolf, is it basically the same?
00:48 ferdna furrywolf, i was thinking on my rc plane to skip 2.4 radio... and use wifi instead
00:48 furrywolf your question makes no sense.
00:48 furrywolf wifi is a standard that uses 2.4ghz radio.
00:49 furrywolf among other parts of the standard, it's high speed and short range, while you need low speed and long range.
00:49 furrywolf so... don't do that.
00:49 ferdna i see
00:49 ferdna so its just about range....
00:51 katsmeow-afk no
00:52 katsmeow-afk 2.4ghz is frequency, not power
00:52 katsmeow-afk range is power
00:52 katsmeow-afk if you use wifi you will need computer in RC to decode wifi
00:53 ferdna oh
00:57 katsmeow-afk in the olden days, we'd just wire in the signal tot he mic jack of a CB radio, and put anotehr radio in the rc with the servo driver plugged into the speaker jack
00:57 katsmeow-afk that alone gives you 5 watts of power, wifi is limited to 1 watt
00:58 ferdna wow
00:59 furrywolf there's also a tradeoff between data rate and range - wifi is very fast, but can't go very far.
01:00 katsmeow-afk i dunno about that, a 2kw klystron is pretty fast data rate
01:00 furrywolf ... for a given power level.
01:01 katsmeow-afk someone should make a business of retuning cavity magnetrons
01:02 katsmeow-afk for a 900w rf generator, they can be had mighty cheap now, Walmart is selling them ~$50 again
01:02 ferdna what about bluetooth?
01:02 furrywolf fuck this
01:03 furrywolf do your own fucking homework.
01:03 katsmeow-afk they need to be a freq other than 2.4 Ghz tho, to some freq less absorbed by water
01:04 ferdna i can't find any rf generator on walmart site
01:04 ferdna katsmeow-afk, oh... thanks for the info
01:04 katsmeow-afk they call it a "microwave oven"
01:04 katsmeow-afk why do you think they call it a "microwave oven" ?
01:05 ferdna oh
01:05 katsmeow-afk it generates microwaves to cook food with
01:06 katsmeow-afk you need to think about these things, look them up with google and wikipedia,, there's a spanish wikipedia too
01:08 katsmeow-afk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven ,, hmm, no http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven
01:09 katsmeow-afk http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microondas
01:09 furrywolf http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horno_de_microondas
01:11 ferdna katsmeow-afk, what does spanish has to do with any of this?
01:12 katsmeow-afk there's many other languages, if english doesn't work for you
01:13 katsmeow-afk you don't seem to understand that "wifi" , "bluetooth" have not much to do with "frequency" or "range" for something as simple as controlling your "rc"
01:13 katsmeow-afk many peple use 432Mhz for their rc stuff
01:13 katsmeow-afk in the olden days, may use 27Mhz, some used 54Mhz
01:14 ferdna katsmeow-afk, i wouldnt see why english woldnt work for me...
01:14 ferdna katsmeow-afk, i believe those are restricted now...
01:14 katsmeow-afk if you're going with wifi, it's so underpowered in the usa that you may as well use any freq you want under part 3 of fcc non-interference rules
01:14 furrywolf it's obvious english isn't working for you, so she tried something else.
01:15 katsmeow-afk *all* freqs have restrictions in usa
01:15 ferdna furrywolf, its not about language.
01:15 katsmeow-afk 27Mhz is still useable, novice and tech class in amateur can use a whole lot of freq and up to 100 watts or more
01:16 ferdna i want to build a plane... and use as little power as possible
01:16 ferdna so
01:16 ferdna that is why... i dont want to go with regular radio freqs...
01:16 ferdna i would like to use bluetooth since it doesnt use a whole lot of power
01:16 katsmeow-afk it also doen't have any range :-/
01:17 ferdna katsmeow-afk, i figured that from what you are telling me...
01:17 katsmeow-afk try using bluetooth from ne side of your hose to the other side
01:17 katsmeow-afk house
01:17 ferdna and why is that?
01:17 furrywolf but we shouldn't need to tell you.
01:17 furrywolf look things up on your own
01:17 katsmeow-afk see, this is why english is not working, i tell you it has no power, you know it uses little power, and yet you think it has range??
01:18 furrywolf when you ask someone how to make food, you're asking for a recipe, not for them to open your mouth and carefully feed you one spoon at a time.
01:18 katsmeow-afk and them move your mouth to chew it for you
01:18 furrywolf obviously you don't know what bluetooth is, and have no clue about the basics of radio communication.
01:19 furrywolf go read about them.
01:19 katsmeow-afk so i said use google and wikipedia
01:19 katsmeow-afk you need a basic knowledge
01:20 ferdna katsmeow-afk, like i said before its not about language.
01:20 ferdna look:
01:20 ferdna http://www.aircable.net/products/host-xr3.php
01:20 furrywolf you need to try learning about things yourself before asking other people about them.
01:21 ferdna now what if i make an directional bluetooth antenna....
01:21 ferdna that will certainly give me lots of range
01:21 furrywolf do you know what a directional antenna is?
01:21 furrywolf do you know what an 18dbi antenna looks like?
01:21 katsmeow-afk "Plus, this long-range Bluetooth transmitter connects to any computer " carry a laptop in your rc ?
01:22 ferdna furrywolf, i've built cantennas my self
01:22 ferdna for wifi
01:22 furrywolf yes, if you build a tracking system, that aims your big dish at the plane constantly with perfect aim, much like nasa does communicating with space probes, you can get away with an underpowered transmitter.
01:22 ferdna katsmeow-afk, thats the plan
01:22 orlok theres different power output options for bluetooth gear
01:22 furrywolf of course, just like nasa, to get their claimed distance, you need a big dish with tracking at both ends of the link.
01:22 ferdna furrywolf, stop the bullshit. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1159128
01:23 katsmeow-afk http://www.sparkfun.com/search/results?term=315mhz&what=products
01:23 katsmeow-afk http://www.sparkfun.com/search/results?term=434mhz&what=products
01:24 furrywolf yes, because the person who doesn't know what a microwave is is the person who can call bullshit on the person who is SITTING NEXT TO three 18dbi+ dishes in varius states of assembly...
01:24 ferdna furrywolf, show me.
01:24 ferdna katsmeow-afk, those are cheap...
01:25 katsmeow-afk cheap, and they do not require a laptop be in your rc plane
01:25 katsmeow-afk you can connect them to an avr
01:25 ferdna katsmeow-afk, i wasnt thinking a laptop in my rc plance but an atmega 26XX
01:25 ferdna mega
01:25 katsmeow-afk you have a bluetooth port on your atmega?
01:25 orlok RasberryPi's are available now
01:26 orlok katsmeow-afk: only needs serial
01:26 katsmeow-afk and protocol
01:26 katsmeow-afk software
01:26 orlok i have a bluetooth+serial dongle
01:26 ferdna katsmeow-afk, http://dx.com/p/jy-mcu-arduino-bluetooth-wireless-serial-port-module-104299
01:26 furrywolf that tracking system is $$$$$, and that's only a 10dbi antenna.
01:26 katsmeow-afk ok, if you found all you need, why are you asking us?
01:26 orlok ferdna: except mine was $100 :-\
01:26 ferdna orlok, let me guess sparkfun?
01:26 furrywolf an 18dbi antenna is ~8 times larger.
01:27 orlok ferdna: bluesmirf, yeah
01:27 furrywolf which would probably break it.
01:27 ferdna orlok, i was thinking that dongle to an atmega mega on the plane... simulate the D-Protocol... and on ground
01:28 ferdna use that antenna
01:28 ferdna that MyFlyDream antenna
01:28 ferdna ofcourse it will be a diy one... not that one...
01:28 katsmeow-afk i expect the range on http://dx.com/p/jy-mcu-arduino-bluetooth-wireless-serial-port-module-104299 is going to be really short
01:28 ferdna katsmeow-afk, not with a long range antenna
01:29 furrywolf all "long range antennas" require tracking.
01:29 katsmeow-afk show us pics when you are done :-)
01:30 furrywolf as I said before, when you claimed bullshit, you can use less power if you use tracking. tracking is expensive, complex, hard, and error-prone. errors with planes generally result in the plane rapidly turning into a new and interesting kit.
01:30 ferdna furrywolf, i showed you the link didnt i? i will be doing a tracking antenna for bluetooth with that long range transmitter plugged into my laptop
01:30 furrywolf and what will be on the plane?
01:30 katsmeow-afk how will you move the antenna on the plane?
01:30 furrywolf and do you have any clue, at all, whatsoever, how to track something?
01:30 furrywolf or how to build the mechanism? or how to control it from a computer?
01:30 ferdna furrywolf, atmega, bluetooth dongle, camera.
01:31 furrywolf camera? lol
01:31 katsmeow-afk how will you move the antenna on the plane?
01:31 ferdna katsmeow-afk, the antenna on the plane will be static... but will be long... something like a omni antenna or something
01:31 katsmeow-afk then it is not tracking
01:31 ferdna furrywolf, yes the camera will be 2.4 Ghz radio. apart from the bluetooth stuff...
01:31 furrywolf you don't know what an omni antenna is, clearly.
01:31 ferdna katsmeow-afk, the one on the ground will be tracking plane
01:32 furrywolf those long "omni" antennas are distinctly NOT omnidirectional. they radiate in a flat disc, not a sphere.
01:32 furrywolf as soon as the plane is off the ground, you will no longer be able to communicate with it.
01:32 ferdna furrywolf, yaggi?
01:32 furrywolf because it'll be happily making a flat disc in the air.
01:32 katsmeow-afk lol
01:32 katsmeow-afk a yaggi on a plane?! lol
01:33 furrywolf you can't have omnidirectional and gain. they're not compatible.
01:33 ferdna i just put a copper wire then.... long copper wire
01:33 furrywolf if you need long range, you must have a direction antenna on both ends, which means you must have tracking.
01:33 furrywolf which is either directional or has no gain, depending on what you do with the wire.
01:33 furrywolf gain is a measurement of directionality.
01:34 furrywolf (not directly, but they're very strongly related)
01:34 katsmeow-afk best he can maybe do is put some dipoles across thru the wings, and the length of the body, and switch tween them based on signal strength
01:34 ferdna katsmeow-afk, cooool
01:35 katsmeow-afk coool? *very* basic!
01:35 furrywolf also, as I said, every time this system goes wrong, the most likely outcome is your plane rapidly becoming a new and interesting kit.
01:36 katsmeow-afk to whoever finds it
01:36 ferdna furrywolf, nop.
01:36 ferdna if it loses bluetooth signal... it will return to base...
01:36 furrywolf lol
01:36 furrywolf lol
01:36 ferdna whats so funny?
01:36 furrywolf have you ever watched any of the autonomous plane competitions?
01:36 tsmeow-afk is afk to nuke some fi
01:36 ferdna nop
01:37 furrywolf they're lucky if they can even figure out where "base" is, and they spend years working on advanced AI.
01:37 furrywolf and you think you're going to land yours with autopilot?
01:37 katsmeow-afk ferdna, it's just that if you're already doing auto-rtb code, you should have the radio stuff worked out by now
01:38 ferdna furrywolf: yeah. i will place two cameras so i can guide the autopilot.
01:38 ferdna katsmeow-afk, i just wanted advice on what i have read already... that was all...
01:38 furrywolf this is... not a useful use of my time.
01:38 rrywolf curls up on katsmeow-afk for bed
02:04 katsmeow-afk fish was good
02:46 GuShH http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-digital-converters/energy-measurement/ade7758/products/product.html neat
07:59 katsmeow-afk 1 Meter = 3.28083989501312 Feet ?
07:59 tsmeow-afk made a wag at 3.25
08:00 katsmeow-afk but the error makes sense, sing one unit is 12ths and not 10ths
08:00 katsmeow-afk sing/seeing
09:28 rue_mohr haha the max 7219 7 seg display driver can do the folowing characters: 0123456789-EHLP
09:29 rue_mohr what could you possibly write with EHLP?
09:29 rue_mohr :)
09:29 rue_mohr katsmeow-afk,
09:29 rue_mohr that chip can drive 8x 7 segment displays, you have 6
09:29 rue_mohr are you into putting another $6 into your power supply?
09:31 katsmeow-afk whathuhwhere?
09:31 rue_mohr http://www.ebay.com/itm/221040511807?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
09:32 rue_mohr drives up to 8 7 segemnt displays, serial interface
09:32 tsmeow-afk looks at http://www.ebay.com/itm/221040511807 ins
09:32 rue_mohr it does all the remembering and muxing for you
09:32 katsmeow-afk a color 7-seg driver?
09:32 rue_mohr no
09:32 rue_mohr just 7 segments
09:32 rue_mohr x 8
09:33 katsmeow-afk says RGB
09:33 rue_mohr you can drive as an array of leds, do you can use it for any led array
09:33 rue_mohr the character rom is bypassable
09:33 katsmeow-afk a 7-seg (or 7seg +dp) *is* an array ofleds
09:34 rue_mohr it has an internal character rom
09:34 rue_mohr and it mux's all the leds for you
09:34 katsmeow-afk "all" as in how many?
09:34 rue_mohr up to 64 leds
09:34 katsmeow-afk how many chars
09:34 rue_mohr 8
09:35 rue_mohr one could do both displays for you
09:35 rue_mohr voltage and current
09:35 katsmeow-afk it's serial interface!
09:35 rue_mohr yes
09:35 rue_mohr you have a micro anyhow
09:36 katsmeow-afk wait,, the data 'v5yupq948yto;qeyrgvnkaehbvksdjbvf ad
09:36 katsmeow-afk the datasheet grabbed the keybd as i was typing a apragraph
09:36 katsmeow-afk now my paws are too tired to retyp oe
09:37 katsmeow-afk damnit, it's made to do ONE display of 8 chars,, so it cannot do two displays with a dp in each
09:37 rue_mohr it can do up to 8 displays with dp
09:38 katsmeow-afk with ONE dp
09:38 katsmeow-afk i have 2 displays,e ach with it's own dp
09:38 katsmeow-afk means: i need 12 chips
09:41 katsmeow-afk yeas? no?
09:46 katsmeow-afk maybe no
09:47 katsmeow-afk it doesn't seem to care, it's char-segment programmable, not so much char programmable
09:48 katsmeow-afk learning avr serial and this chip will give me two new hobbies
09:48 katsmeow-afk as if the 4000 lbs of dirt on the roof, the water situation, the car situation, isn't enough
14:42 GuShH rue_mohr: http://yfrog.com/h7z7anpj
14:46 peeps anyone have experience with high resolution absolute rotary encoders? I'm interested in possibly trying to build a coordinate measuring arm
15:30 Tom_itx peeps, the ones on my bot are 2048 count
15:30 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/maxbot/maxbot_index.php
15:33 GuShH does it fetch soup?
19:10 katsmeow why is the ddr2 socket 154mm long, but the ddr2 ram module is only 133mm long?
19:14 ace4016 21mm is a lot of buffer space
19:15 ace4016 i suppose it's just the border
19:16 katsmeow a border with all those extra pins?
19:16 rue_mohr YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
19:16 rue_mohr I got BEARINGS!
19:17 rue_mohr GuShH, hahahaah
19:17 rue_mohr GuShH, was he speeding tho?
19:18 ace4016 not sure; if it's no an SO-DIMM, it should fit :P
19:18 rue_mohr I suppse you must not piss off someone holding two missles like that behind you
19:19 Tom_itx you gonna go weld tabs on all them now and ruin em?
19:19 katsmeow the sockets are 276 pin dimm
19:20 rue_mohr no these ones will have 1/2" EMT hammered into them
19:20 Tom_itx ahh yeah ding em up with a hammer
19:20 katsmeow they are server ECC sockets :-/
19:20 katsmeow rue, you know you can crack those races?
19:22 rue_mohr sure!
19:23 katsmeow ok, have funs! :-)
19:24 Tom_itx he got spares
19:28 rue_mohr today my dollar item is the max7219
19:28 rue_mohr no I already got one
19:30 rue_mohr the pcb, I'm going for the pcb
19:30 ace4016 are you trying to build a project at the cost of a dollar a day?
19:30 rue_mohr no
19:30 rue_mohr I'm just buying one $1 thing per day
19:30 ace4016 heh
19:32 rue_mohr http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/packages.png
19:33 rue_mohr I LIKE IT!
19:34 ^robertj rue_mohr, there is a program to do that
19:34 ^robertj I forget where I saw it, but it ebays things with free shipping and no reserve and buys you random presents
19:34 katsmeow xkcd
19:35 ^robertj I think Luis Villwhatshisname from planet.gnome.org wrote it
19:35 ace4016 heh
19:36 Tom_itx rue feels better when he gets mail every day
19:36 Tom_itx it's his new $1 ploy
19:42 buhman rue_mohr: did you come up with any interesting ideas yet?
19:44 rue_mohr oh damn I forgot to send that price request yesterday
19:50 katsmeow-afk http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/portraits-olympic-athletes-called-shoddy-embarrasment/print?id=16718148
19:50 katsmeow-afk so is misspelling "embarrassment" in the url by a major news org
19:51 katsmeow-afk altho they do it now at least once a day, so maybe not
20:12 rue_mohr katsmeow-afk, did the nature of the max7219 become clear to you?
20:13 rue_mohr its not rgb, they were just suggesting use....
20:13 rue_mohr 7 seg+dp * 8
20:13 rue_mohr automatic scanning
20:13 rue_mohr serial bus
20:15 rue_mohr I found out I can get M8-1 theaded rod locally
20:15 rue_mohr and 5/16"-24
20:15 rue_mohr 5/16-32 he smirked
20:15 rue_mohr to which I said 'fiar enough'
20:18 Tom_itx there is no 5/16 32
20:18 Tom_itx 18 and 24
20:19 rue_mohr my tap chart shows 32
20:20 Tom_itx not on my chart
20:20 Tom_itx it's possible it's a fine thread that isn't as common
20:30 rue_mohr ok the reprap kit will be sae, good stuff
20:36 GuShH rue_mohr: no details but that road is 120-130KM/h tops
20:37 GuShH bleh I can't get a good seal with hose clamps on the fridge compressor
20:37 GuShH I'll have to get some fittings and solder them
20:38 GuShH it seems to work fine to inflate tyres, which is what I wanted it for. but still on the lookout for a nice big compressor
20:38 GuShH need to figure out a way to keep the oil level in check on that tiny compressor
20:38 ShH ponders replacing the oil with moto
20:39 GuShH if the service valve is low enough maybe I could fit a big oil canister permanently and let it feed on it's own
21:18 katsmeow-afk yeas, the nature of the max7219 became clear to me
21:20 katsmeow-afk thing is, all i can see it doing for real is reducing the chip count from 6 octal latches (or 3 16-bit latches) to one chip, and i have the latches already, to interface to a 4-port dip-40 avr, so the serial chip is only saving pcb real estate where i am not sure i need to save any
21:21 katsmeow-afk it will save wire to the front panel, and will have a learning curve to use
21:22 GuShH_ is it talk-to-yourself time?
21:26 tsmeow-afk detects that you want her to say something diffe
21:33 katsmeow-afk and resistors,,,, 48 of them, ouchie
21:35 katsmeow-afk unless i do something sneaky like use 74HC374 and lower the Vcc voltage down so the 374 gives only enough voltage to make good current, the use the OE pin to pwm it dimmer
21:36 tsmeow-afk s
21:38 katsmeow-afk i swear
21:39 Tom_itx kat
21:39 Tom_itx want a cnc?
21:39 Tom_itx http://maxxtools.en.made-in-china.com/product/AqZxXtivLOVM/China-CNC-Milling-Machine-XK7132SD.html
21:39 Tom_itx 1k
21:40 katsmeow-afk 10PCS IC MAXIM DIP-24 MAX7219CNG ; Buy It Now $5.15 ; Free Shipping
21:40 katsmeow-afk good example of paying over $1, but getting the chips for 1/2 price
21:40 katsmeow-afk i need 6 <shrug>
21:41 katsmeow-afk 10 for $5.15 or 6 for $5.94
21:47 katsmeow-afk 20 watts of white led : $7.59 ; free s&h
21:48 katsmeow-afk Tom, that's pretty cheap, but it mentions the bed is made of resin?
21:48 katsmeow-afk "This kind of machine used foundry material of high strength resin sand"
22:44 ferdna i still can't play disc on my 5 disc changer =/
22:44 ferdna old caps and good caps
22:44 ferdna http://i.imgur.com/gUySI.jpg
22:50 rrywolf hops on katsmeow-afk's
22:51 furrywolf how did you determine the old caps were bad?
22:51 furrywolf those look like nippon chemicon, which are usually ok...
22:53 ferdna furrywolf, they were leaking
22:53 ferdna and old 15+ years
22:53 ferdna and yes those are nichicons.
22:54 ferdna thats the only brand i use when replacing caps.
22:54 furrywolf yeah, I use nichicons too. pw, pm, pl series.
22:55 furrywolf hrmm, looks like they could be samyoung, not ncc.
22:57 furrywolf no, sure looks like ncc to me.
22:58 furrywolf usually ncc caps are good.
22:59 furrywolf are you sure they were leaking?
22:59 ferdna i see
22:59 ferdna yes you can even see in the pics
22:59 ferdna two of them for sure...
22:59 ferdna i didnt want to risk it so i replaced the other ones too
22:59 furrywolf that looks like glue, not leaked electrolyte.
22:59 furrywolf they glue the sides of big caps so the leads don't crack during shipping.
23:02 ferdna glue is yellow... leak is brownish...
23:04 furrywolf what were the original symptoms?
23:04 orlok cmrn: you have played fallout, right?
23:05 orlok cmrn: i remember the first time i played it, thinking "Bottlecaps? What use are goddamn bottlecaps?"
23:06 orlok before i realused they had a value of 1 and no weight
23:06 furrywolf huh?
23:07 ferdna furrywolf, 3rd or 4th song it will start skipping...
23:07 orlok oh, wrong channel, doh.
23:07 ferdna like if it had overheated or something...
23:07 furrywolf and what are the current symptoms?
23:08 ferdna furrywolf, the disc are not recognized... it spins the discs but the display tells me after a few seconds "--" instead of displaying song contdown
23:09 furrywolf did you remember to plug back in all the cables?
23:10 furrywolf neither of those symptoms (skipping, failing to recognize disc) sound like power supply problems.
23:13 ferdna furrywolf, yes i plugged everything back the way it was...
23:13 ferdna i double checked the caps polarity
23:13 furrywolf do you have an oscilloscope?
23:13 ferdna no... =/....
23:13 furrywolf it sounds to me like you have a generic cd player problem, not a power supply problem.
23:14 furrywolf dry grease on the slider rails is the usual cause of skipping after a few tracks...
23:15 ferdna no dry grease. the laser is mounted directly on the piece that holds the cds...(cd changer tray)...
23:16 furrywolf the laser/lens has to slide back and forth to read different parts of the cd. this is where the grease tends to dry out.
23:16 furrywolf can also be a weak laser, dirty lens, motor problem (fails to maintain speed),...
23:19 ferdna furrywolf, i wouldnt know... but i'll look into those areas...
23:20 furrywolf check the serfaq cd player section, but many steps need an oscilloscope.
23:20 furrywolf why are you fixing a cd player, anyway? those nichicon caps cost more than a new unit...
23:24 furrywolf <furrywolf> check the serfaq cd player section, but many steps need an oscilloscope.
23:24 furrywolf <furrywolf> why are you fixing a cd player, anyway? those nichicon caps cost more than a new unit...
23:25 ferdna i got disconnected
23:26 furrywolf I noticed that. that's why I repeated what I said.
23:29 ferdna oh ok
23:29 ferdna furrywolf, no, not really... they were cents each.
23:33 furrywolf why are you messaging me?
23:34 furrywolf and a used cd player is about $1.
23:35 ferdna what about a 5 disc changer?
23:36 furrywolf I got the 5-disc one I stuck in the garage at my last house for $3 about six years ago. works great.
23:37 furrywolf people literally throw them away.
23:37 furrywolf working.
23:42 furrywolf gah... someone I know did that. he had a boombox thing, cd player, tape, etc. BRAND NEW. in original box, with original styrofoam, etc. he used it once to test it. he took it to the dump. I tried to convince him that it was wasteful, and he should put it on craigslist for free and someone would probably take it. he said it wasn't worth his time.
23:44 furrywolf I told the guy at the dump that is brand new, and he took it home with him. :)
23:46 ferdna cool
23:47 ferdna i'll be right back... going to fix my windows partition
23:47 furrywolf deleting it is the best way t
23:47 furrywolf bah