#robotics Logs

Jun 16 2012

00:01 katsmeow-afk hmm?
00:03 katsmeow-afk i have a small pile of riding mower starters, and a small pile of windshield wiper motors, and one starter that's like 2ft long and weighs 60lbs
00:03 katsmeow-afk a moderate pile of motors attached to hydraulic pumps
00:03 katsmeow-afk a moderate pile of 24-36-48vdc motors that each weigh 40lbs
00:04 furrywolf the solenoid I need will be on the side of the 2ft, 60lb starter. I need 8 of them. :)
00:04 katsmeow-afk i don't have 8 of them, sorry
00:04 katsmeow-afk why do you need 8 of them ?
00:05 furrywolf building two giant h-bridges.
00:05 furrywolf the solenoids on delco 40mt starters, used in lots and lots of heavy diesels, are rated for 800A continuous.
00:06 katsmeow-afk but they only pull one way, why drive them with giant h-bridges?
00:06 furrywolf http://www.lindnerpower.com/P2060071.JPG that look like that.
00:07 furrywolf they
00:07 furrywolf I have two winches, that use four little solenoids each to control the direction of the motor. the solenoids keep burning out. I am sick of them buring out.
00:08 katsmeow-afk yeas, that's my big starter
00:08 furrywolf a while ago, I got a 40mt solenoid, and it worked great, but that was only a one-way winch, that is power in, freespool out.
00:08 furrywolf for my other winches, where the motor runs both ways, I need four of them, to make an h-bridge.
00:08 katsmeow-afk you are saying "solenoid" for "relay"
00:08 furrywolf "contactor" would probably be the technical term.
00:09 katsmeow-afk do the relays still pull in?
00:09 katsmeow-afk or the coils burned open?
00:09 furrywolf however, when repairing winches, they're called solenoids. just like the bit under the hood of your truck is called a starter solenoid, even if it's mounted to the fender and has no external moving bits.
00:09 furrywolf coils are all fine. some weld the contacts shut, others pitted and click but won't do anything.
00:10 furrywolf the ones that weld the contacts shut are fucking scary, and are the reason I have my winch on a Anderson plug even though it's hard-mounted to the vehicle, for an emergency power disconnect.
00:11 katsmeow-afk tsk tsk tsk, you should be bottom feeding on ebay, where you can pick up 1000 power transistors for $10, 1000 transistors @ 8amp each is 8000 amps
00:11 furrywolf the actual continuous rating on those little solenoids is only ~200A, and when you use them for a 450A motor... but that's the way they sell them, because they generally work for the duration of the warranty period.
00:12 furrywolf the delco 40mt solenoids are rated for 800A continuous. and, if that's not enough, the guy at the local auto electric shop says he stocks tungsten contacts for them. :)
00:13 katsmeow-afk but you can get transistors, they aren't noisey and don't have a wear factor, and you cannot get the 40mt for a reasonable price
00:13 furrywolf I got my last solenoids, brand new, for $13 each on ebay.
00:13 katsmeow-afk and you wore them out
00:14 furrywolf no, I got two of the 40mt solenoids. they have not worn out. they're just used for another project, and insufficient in number for this project anyway.
00:14 katsmeow-afk o
00:15 furrywolf hrmm, it's amazing how hard it is to find a picture of the starter with normal objects around it for comparrison. that image I pasted doesn't do it justice.
00:15 katsmeow-afk DesignerThinking.com/images/gantry/DSCF2146.jpg
00:16 katsmeow-afk btw, the trick to them overheating is to pull them in at 12 or 14v, but then drop the voltage off to 8v holding power
00:16 furrywolf the coils aren't overheating. the contacts are.
00:16 furrywolf often they fail instantly.
00:17 furrywolf due to arcing
00:17 Triffid_Hunter can weld with less than 100A
00:18 katsmeow-afk i dunno why, i used olde-time starter relays on an electric car
00:18 katsmeow-afk i wonder if you are shorting the battery thru them
00:19 furrywolf a winch motor is pretty much a dead short at turn-on, and turn-off when stalled.
00:19 katsmeow-afk mine were in a circuit such that no additional relay could pull in if any were still closed, and then there was a time delay
00:19 furrywolf have you ever seen the inside of an old winch motor?
00:19 katsmeow-afk so is a 36vdc golf cart motor ata dead stop into 48vdc
00:19 katsmeow-afk yeas, they are pretty much just heavy copper bars
00:19 furrywolf yep
00:20 furrywolf they're rated operating current is 450A.
00:20 furrywolf their
00:20 furrywolf stalled, them and a dead short have a lot in common. :)
00:20 katsmeow-afk my ammmeter said i was pulling 220amps going downt he road at 35mph, and i tried to keep it under 800amps leaving stop lites
00:20 katsmeow-afk i never had a starter relay fail
00:21 furrywolf http://media.diywelder.com/images3/062605-23-buildingmotor_IMGP1352.jpg the "wire" on the rotor is about 3/16" thick and 3/8" wide, and has a whole one turn or so.
00:21 katsmeow-afk and at 200amps, paralleled #4 got real hot
00:21 furrywolf the field coils are about the same. thick square copper, not wire.
00:22 katsmeow-afk oh those lil things, i thought you were talking big ones
00:22 furrywolf they're not that little... 4hp rating...
00:22 katsmeow-afk that rotor wire is almost square, not round, and ~3/16
00:23 katsmeow-afk those are pretty much repurposed car starter rotors on heavier and longer shafts, it's *Delco* after all
00:23 furrywolf in any case, I know from extensive personal experience, little cheap solenoids do _not_ survive those motors. even the fancy ones with continuous duty coils soon fail.
00:23 furrywolf yep
00:24 furrywolf except the starter motor version has field coils of actual wire, while the winch version has a copper bar wrapped into a loop. :)
00:24 furrywolf the winch one also uses four field coils, while the starter ones I've taken apart only used two.
00:24 katsmeow-afk show me a closeup pic
00:24 furrywolf that's the best I found googling...
00:25 katsmeow-afk k, my golfcart motors are 4-winding stators, and a couple of the hydraulic motors are too
00:26 furrywolf yeah, some hydraulic pumps use the same motor.
00:26 furrywolf well, similar. the winch one brings the field coils out on separate posts, so you can reverse its direction.
00:26 katsmeow-afk the golf motors were 1/8 x 1/2 inch copper bar wound on the stators, like i said, i never had a starter relay fail
00:27 furrywolf my experience with solenoids has been the $30 Warn ones last several years, the $15 chinese ones last several months, and the $5 auto parts store starter ones last several seconds.
00:27 katsmeow-afk praps too, it's the problem of the operator rapidly clicking the buttons to slow the winch?
00:27 furrywolf it's a problem of stalling the winch.
00:28 katsmeow-afk yeas, starter relay prices on good ones, like they useto make, have gone waaaaay up
00:28 furrywolf try driving your golf cart into a tree, with sufficient weight to maintain traction, then click the controls a few times.
00:29 furrywolf when stalled, it's pretty much a dead short, and they melt. fast.
00:29 katsmeow-afk it was a VW convert to ev, and it would hop street curbs in 3rd gear at a dead stop
00:29 furrywolf if you close them into a dead short a few times, the contacts tend to weld on, which results in immediate scary shit and running for the battery cables.
00:30 furrywolf I even had one weld on in an actual car! a friend's old jeep. starter solenoid stuck on. we ended up cutting the battery cable, as tin snips were the first tool we could find.
00:30 tsmeow-afk
00:33 furrywolf I have chinese ones on my jeep's winch right now... the first set lasted about 8 months, and they sent me a new set under warranty. have been working about a year now, and are now out of warranty. last time I used it, I had to click them a few times to get them to work, so they'll be failing soon.
00:35 furrywolf the chinese winch controller on my jeep uses double-throw solenoids, which seem prone to making poor contact on the NC side, due to weak spring pressure. and, of course, the second they make bad contact, they melt.
00:36 furrywolf http://www.geckoadventure.net/BLOG/Yellow.8274.085.WEB.jpg heh, there's one with round wire. all of mine are square. looks silly with round wire. lol
00:37 furrywolf definitely drives home just how close to a short circuit they are, though. :)
00:38 katsmeow-afk yeas, #10 or #8, one or two passes thru the iron
00:38 furrywolf I haven't found any.
00:38 katsmeow-afk some use 4 or more passes of #14
00:38 furrywolf and I'm not taking apart my working motor for an irc picture. :P
00:39 katsmeow-afk i saw one commutator assy with really tall forks at one end for laying in winding after winding in parallel
00:40 katsmeow-afk the forks were prone to breaking
00:41 furrywolf in any case, the problem is the solenoids do burn out, and my solution is going to be really fucking big solenoids. :)
00:41 furrywolf the 40mt solenoids are larger than a soda can.
00:41 furrywolf and have an 800A continuous rating.
00:41 tsmeow-afk does a lil math ...
00:41 furrywolf you can buy heavy-duty contactors, but they're much more expensive than repurposing starter solenoids.
00:42 furrywolf $100 for a contactor, or $20 for a starter solenoid with the same rating...
00:43 furrywolf to use the solenoids, you need to pull the plungers out of scrap starter motors, but they're pretty easy to find.
00:43 furrywolf the last two plungers I got from the local auto electric shop. he gave them to me, as they were taking up space in his junk pile.
00:44 katsmeow-afk a 5x5 inch transistor pile, an inch thick, can pass 1000 amps continuously, never wear out, and have self-protect short circuit tolerance to 10,000 amps
00:45 rrywolf doesn't trust solid-state in automotive applications, especially highly inductive one
00:45 katsmeow-afk cost, not sure, i have a bid of $10 in on ebay for that many transistors
00:45 furrywolf transistors rarely share current nicely, especially in those numbers.
00:46 furrywolf it would have to be fets, as th forward drop of BJTs would be a quarter of the winch's power.
00:46 furrywolf the
00:46 katsmeow-afk actually, 350 of them, i figure an 80 x 80 x 80 x 80 array will pass 640amps constant or 1000amps in pwm all day long and neaver wear out
00:46 furrywolf solenoids have very nice low on-resistance...
00:47 katsmeow-afk irf1404 has 0.001 ohm on resistance
00:47 katsmeow-afk irfx44 has 0.01 ohm on resistance
00:47 katsmeow-afk irfz44
00:47 furrywolf http://www.madtripper.com/gallery/d/12833-1/carrier+011.jpg
00:48 katsmeow-afk there's an open source h-bridge design that drops such little power at 100's of amps that they don't even heatsink the fets
00:49 katsmeow-afk that's an induction-repulsion rotor
00:49 katsmeow-afk that's a real oldie too
00:49 furrywolf I actually plan on building a pair of @000A h-bridges for a project, but not this one.
00:49 furrywolf 2000A
00:49 furrywolf what is?
00:49 katsmeow-afk http://www.madtripper.com/gallery/d/12833-1/carrier+011.jpg
00:49 furrywolf that's a warn winch motor.
00:49 furrywolf 12vdc.
00:50 katsmeow-afk or is that a plain brush carrier wrapped around a commutator under all that rusty grease?
00:50 furrywolf yeah, that's the brush assembley on the end.
00:50 katsmeow-afk k
00:50 katsmeow-afk cannot tell by zooming on it
00:51 furrywolf I'd guess he found the end bearing was rusted to the shaft, so pulled the whole thing apart, rather than sliding it off.
00:51 furrywolf that's the 3/16" square wire mine have.
00:51 katsmeow-afk yeas
00:52 furrywolf aka not much better than a dead short. :)
00:52 furrywolf these winches make #2 wire nice and warm.
00:52 katsmeow-afk i understand "dead short", i do not understand why you keep stressing that to me
00:52 furrywolf even my chinese control box came with #2 wire!
00:52 furrywolf because you keep saying the solenoids shouldn't fail, and suggesting maybe they're being shorted.
00:53 katsmeow-afk i said it once, i don't keep saying it
00:53 furrywolf you also kept asking for a closeup, so I kept looking for one. :)
00:54 katsmeow-afk i meant closeup like with only 3 wires in the 1megabyte picture
00:56 katsmeow-afk http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sqGd3qYpCr8/T0npW2jwUeI/AAAAAAAAAPk/RpvpEN-IKTk/s1600/400A_Commutator.jpg
00:57 ace4016 what is that fantastic looking contraption?
00:57 furrywolf heh, I have a starter motor that looks like that.
00:57 katsmeow-afk a 400amp commutator with burned-open bars
00:58 furrywolf http://trip.bushytails.net/small/small-imgp2073.jpg
00:58 furrywolf caught on the flywheel, didn't last very long.
00:59 furrywolf start the engine, gee what's that noise? crunch!
00:59 furrywolf http://trip.bushytails.net/big/imgp2071.jpg
01:00 katsmeow-afk even more hp : http://farm1.staticflickr.com/77/227259056_b9ce8a8dc8_z.jpg
01:01 furrywolf hrmm, figure engine was at 2k rpm, pinion is, what, 1/15th the size? 30k rpm for a 20lb motor...
01:01 furrywolf that motor was HARD to find. took calling about 40 junkyards in 3 states.
01:04 katsmeow-afk badly scored rotor : http://members.rennlist.com/sharkskin/Pages_SA_R31-HoodPad-HVAC-EV-LateBlowerCommutatorHorkedCloseUp.jpg
01:04 furrywolf it's a very rare motor, only used on one engine for a few years in a vehicle never sold to the public.
01:05 furrywolf and nothing else fits.
01:05 furrywolf I saved the broken one, just in case I ever needed other parts.
01:07 furrywolf it's actually the second one I had to find... the truck came with a broken one.
01:08 furrywolf the previous owner was completely drunk, and driving. he ran out of gas a couple miles from home. figured he'd just hold down the starter for a while and drive it there as an electric vehicle.
01:08 tsmeow-afk
01:08 furrywolf it apparantly did make it about halfway there.
01:08 furrywolf needless to say the motor was not salvagable.
01:09 rrywolf has no idea why people fuck their brains up in that fashio
01:10 katsmeow-afk bigarsed sliprings : http://www.eriks.co.uk/image-bank/images/storage/3290_slip_ring_commutator_large_3.jpg
01:11 furrywolf yes, industrial stuff is often big.
01:12 katsmeow-afk yeas
01:13 rrywolf curls up next to katsmeow-afk for bed
01:15 tsmeow-afk is not all
01:17 rrywolf moves to katsmeow-afk's lap, to keep her in one p
01:19 katsmeow-afk i cooked some food, and forgot to eat it
01:26 furrywolf bbl
02:56 damian_ Triffid_Hunter mentioned awhile ago that something like the raspberry pi (RPi) wouldn't do so well for speed control because it isn't fast enough, but an arduino would be. he suggested connecting an arduino to the RPi, but couldn't I buy something cheaper dedicated to making a motor get up to a specific speed?
02:57 damian_ also is it true that RPi would be fast enough for speed control?
02:57 damian_ wouldn't*
02:57 ace4016 RPi is aimed to be more like a personal computer rather than a controller
02:58 ace4016 it's interfaces aren't necessarily encouraged for direct control
02:58 damian_ sure, but I want to use it for things that arduino can't do, such as provide a web interface to control it with
02:59 ace4016 if you want to control a motor from your computer, you'll most likely want to communicate with a dedicated controller...or put a manual interface on the controller product :P
02:59 damian_ the web interface would also show the output of a webcam
02:59 damian_ so usb?
02:59 ace4016 usb for what exactly?
02:59 ace4016 comm between the controller nad computer?
02:59 ace4016 sure...
03:00 ace4016 beagleboard might work out a little better possibly
03:01 damian_ I was thinking a dedicated controller that is instructed what speed to go through usb, my dad mentioned it for something I was talking about earlier
03:01 damian_ that is one of the options I saw, I don't actually have any computer yet
03:01 damian_ though I think you know that already
03:02 damian_ yep, you were the first to respond to me
03:03 ace4016 o.0?
03:04 damian_ <ace4016> anything in the ITX form factor?
03:04 damian_ <damian_> I would like to buy a computer like the raspberry pi so I can run linux and php on it, any suggestions?
03:04 damian_ <damian_> I did also consider the beagleboard
03:04 damian_ post order 3,1,2
03:05 ace4016 oh, you'll have to come here more often for me to remember who you are :P
03:05 damian_ it was at 4:23PM (-06:00)
03:06 ace4016 yea, i fell asleep soon after that :P
03:08 damian_ do you think placing weights where the propellers sit would help against wind problems?
03:12 damian_ of course that means the propellers have to have stronger/faster motors, but whatever
03:13 ace4016 propellers for what? and what effect of the wind are you guarding against?
03:13 ace4016 wind force on the propellers or the unit?
03:14 ace4016 if it's the unit, put the weight on a non-torque area; if it's a generator, install a brake
03:16 damian_ well its a quadcoptor and I was worried that too much wind would cause it to just be blown away or screw up it's orientation so it would be constantly compensating
03:16 damian_ for a calm day I wouldn't expect too much problem depending on how big I make it
03:17 damian_ compensating/adjusting
03:19 damian_ I figure unless I specifically give it more mass, any outside force will make it hard to control
03:20 ace4016 yup
03:21 ace4016 there are a few ways you can ward off those affects
03:21 damian_ I was also considering making it powerful enough to carry things, probably only as heavy as a harddrive (one was sitting on my desk...)
03:21 ace4016 size (mass) is the main thing, but requires more powerful motors
03:22 damian_ less area to let the wind affect?
03:39 damian_ I'm finally gonna go to bed, I'll probably come back in the morning, seeya
03:42 Triffid_Hunter damian_: it's not that the RPi isn't fast enough, it's that it isn't strict enough about timing to put out a proper speed control signal
03:42 damian_ ah, ok
03:43 Triffid_Hunter damian_: see http://www.brokentoaster.com/blog/?p=1259 - pay careful attention to how irregular the pulse trains are, particularly figure 7
03:43 ace4016 yea, making it more aerodynamic helps
03:44 damian_ I think that would be a problem with the "Parrot AR Drone"
03:44 damian_ it has a light body that can catch a lot of wind
03:44 ace4016 i'm not a fan of the parrot AR drone
03:44 damian_ I've never used it, so I can't say anything
03:44 ace4016 it was designed to be used mainly inside
03:44 ace4016 or in no/light wind
03:45 ace4016 iirc
03:45 damian_ kinda figured, but thats borind :P
03:45 ace4016 most products designed for the average consumer whore are :P
03:45 ace4016 enthusiast products are much more interesting and capable
03:46 damian_ it is pretty awesome compared to many things though
03:47 damian_ part of the reason I want to use RPi is so that I can use PHP to program it, as well as have the web interface
03:48 damian_ besides PHP, VB is the only thing I've ever programmed in
03:49 ace4016 start learning a new langauge
03:49 ace4016 :P
03:49 damian_ :(
03:50 ace4016 PHP is ok and useable, but it's not appropriate
03:50 damian_ I just figured it would be convenient to be able to use what I already know
03:50 ace4016 it would be
03:50 damian_ appropriate as in "not commonly used"?
03:53 ace4016 PHP was designed to pump out and process web information; you'll find that when you start trying to output to things that are not webpages, you'll be pulling teeth with chainsaw chopsticks
03:54 ace4016 it cna process just fine, but its infrastructure was geared to something very specific, which will get in the way
03:54 ace4016 a lot of other languages were geared more torwards general development, and some of the domain specific languages are geared more for what you're trying to do than PHP
03:55 ace4016 i know a butt load of languages and can pick them up quickly for the reason that sometimes knowing one isn't enough or inconvienient
03:56 damian_ I think I could learn a new one fine, I guess I'm just trying to stay inside my comfort zone
03:57 ace4016 if you do that, you risk stagnant ideas; it's usually a good thing to leave your comfort zone and explore :D
03:57 damian_ before I try anything though I should see if I can even get my relay switch to work
03:58 damian_ that thing has been sitting around for a few years and I still haven't gotten around to making it at least click
03:58 ace4016 hehe
03:58 ace4016 isn't it usually just a DC signal applied to one end, ground to the other and *click* ?
03:58 ace4016 :P
03:59 damian_ I'm talking about making it do stuff with the usb cable I have for it
03:59 damian_ otherwise it's a piece of plastic with random bits of metal :D
04:04 ace4016 ah
04:04 damian_ btw shouldn't I be able to just use file_put_contents(file,data) on the device file?
04:04 damian_ assuming linux
04:05 damian_ ack, its been 20 minutes since I said I was going to go to bed >.<
04:05 ace4016 if you can open the stream, probably
04:05 damian_ hmm
04:05 damian_ I'll have to try that with my relay switch when I wake up
04:06 damian_ didn't work so well trying to make it do anything with VB under Windows
04:06 damian_ I think the device driver for the USB to RS232 adapter was borked under Windows anyway
04:22 damian_ going down for human shutdown NOW!
07:48 katsmeow-afk furry 600 WATT WIND GENERATOR TURBINE MOTOR PMA ALTERNATOR ; 18 POUND UNIT!;Location: California; 0 bids $0.01+$19.56 shipping Time left: 6d 12h 10m ; http://www.ebay.com/itm/600-WATT-WIND-GENERATOR-TURBINE-MOTOR-PMA-ALTERNATOR-/251086388573
07:51 katsmeow-afk furry : MARATHON ELECTRIC 50/40hp ; 1 bid $0.99 + shipping ; Item location: 16238 Arrow Hwy, Irwindale, 91706, CA
07:52 katsmeow-afk it highly resembles my older DesignerThinking.com/images/solar/outside.jpg, which i was going to use as an induction genny
07:55 Steffanx Maybe it's none of my business, but i wonder what you do for you're "daily living" katsmeow-afk ..
07:55 Steffanx *your
08:03 katsmeow-afk really, do you?
08:03 Steffanx Yes
08:03 katsmeow-afk hey, that had no bids till i mentioned it in here, who bid?
08:03 katsmeow-afk wait, differemt 40hp
08:03 katsmeow-afk nm
08:04 katsmeow-afk did you want to hire me, Steffanx?
08:05 Steffanx No, i just wonder what you do
08:06 tsmeow-afk smells another rat, sicilydreamer and actionace are using the same
08:06 katsmeow-afk both in HongKong too
08:10 katsmeow-afk it's wierd seeing sellers advertising ram, when it has a sticker on it of any kind with a barcode, as if the barcode is so important
08:10 katsmeow-afk such as : SUN X7004A 256MB BARCODED MEMORY KIT ECC
08:25 katsmeow-afk i hate to see a 100mhz oscope like a 7603 go for $15 , especially when it's got 3 plugins included
08:30 katsmeow-afk http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-OS-256-P-U-Oscilloscope-/380446590254
08:31 katsmeow-afk but i warn you, for only $30 shipping, it is almost sure to be so poorly packed that it's damaged in shipping
08:32 katsmeow-afk the parts numbers you cannot find online: it's a totally military version of the 7603, with two 7A15 and one 7B53A in it
08:45 rizlah katsmeow-afk: http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/27543-us-cert-warns-about-64-bit-attacks
08:45 katsmeow-afk am i being attacked?
08:46 katsmeow-afk oooo, that could be a nasty one
08:46 rizlah No, discuss
08:46 rizlah Is that fixable?
08:47 rizlah Looks like a direct fault in the hardware
08:47 katsmeow-afk imagine upgrading to all new hardware and software, and then getting rooted
08:47 katsmeow-afk it's not fixable afaik, no cots cpu has field re-programmable microcode
08:48 rizlah :O
08:48 rizlah Intel will be reaching deep into their pockets.
08:49 katsmeow-afk the SYSRET instruction executes internal code inside the cpu, not from system ram, and it's bad code, and cannot be re-coded, the cpu is worthless till you get enough of them to retile your bathroom countertop
08:50 rizlah I wonder which versions of their CPUs this affects.
08:50 katsmeow-afk it's like the Pentium 1+1 = 1, for some values of 1 , but at least that didn't hand the system over to hackers
08:51 katsmeow-afk i can't say, and they may not want to make it public
08:51 rizlah Something that I find very interesting, is that Xen has a lot more bugs than it should.
08:52 katsmeow-afk until an advanced Ai writes the code, it's gonna be buggy
08:52 rizlah CVE-2012-0217 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=813428 http://web.nvd.nist.gov/view/vuln/detail?vulnId=CVE-2012-0217
08:54 rizlah http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/649219 Full US cert page
08:54 katsmeow-afk ok, someone is being misleading, because http://web.nvd.nist.gov/view/vuln/detail?vulnId=CVE-2012-0217 didn't say it's the fault in the cpu
08:55 rizlah It affects the Intel implementation of x86_64 extension, iirc.
08:55 rizlah Nvm, looks like software bug
08:55 rizlah "Some 64-bit operating systems and virtualization software running on Intel CPU hardware are vulnerable to a local privilege escalation attack. The vulnerability may be exploited for local privilege escalation or a guest-to-host virtual machine escape."
08:56 katsmeow-afk �An attacker must have valid logon credentials and be able to log on locally to exploit this vulnerability. The vulnerability could not be exploited remotely or by anonymous users.
08:57 rizlah Installing malware would be enough
08:59 katsmeow-afk yeas, someone smart enough .... i wonder, the Chiese have been altering hardware wafer masks to install hardware bugs in routers and such , hardware that acts like man-in-the-middle, i wonder if this is such a hardware "bug" done on purpose, sold to Iran, running code that's now got wild, so the usa wants to stop it from spreading
09:00 katsmeow-afk because this would be a attack method that no antivirus could ever detect
09:00 rizlah It could be, easily.
09:01 rizlah I wouldn't be surprised if MS has an entire list of ridiculously hard to find bugs just for agencies to use.
09:01 katsmeow-afk not really, not on a virtualised user
09:01 katsmeow-afk MS doesn't need bugs, they install backdoors, but the Intel cpu is a hardware bug
09:02 katsmeow-afk MS licenses at least one back door to Adobe for DRM checks
09:02 rizlah s/bugs/backdoors/
09:21 katsmeow-afk i was trying to remember the 6502 code i did for an error handler that used this hack
09:22 Tom_itx gardamn firefox is updating yet again
09:23 katsmeow-afk a gosub in machine code puts the registers, at least the program counter, onto the stack, and the (sys)ret pops the stack and puts it back, but the error handler overwrote that stack location, and the cpu began executing somewhere it didn't expect to, but this was ok, because the error handler had done all the cleanup beforehand
09:25 katsmeow-afk so it's a legit thing to do, specially for debuggers, error handlers, or code patches,,, i do not see how an antivirus would flag all such stack overwrites as malware
09:26 katsmeow-afk in the Intel case, the very thing meant to guard against errant previedges, the virtualisation, is what is making this bug workable
09:27 katsmeow-afk they are stuffing the stack with an address that lands the cpu in admin address space after the gosub return
10:04 rue_bed hmm, I need a state machine emulator for my state machine builder
10:05 Tom_itx rue
10:05 rue_bed I wonder what happened to hte C output its suppposed to have
10:05 rue_bed yes?
10:05 katsmeow-afk what's coutput ?
10:05 rue_bed cout
10:05 katsmeow-afk ah
10:06 Tom_itx pm
10:06 rue_bed is the c++ character output function (method)
10:06 katsmeow-afk i know
10:06 Tom_itx i read that to be an oscillator
10:06 katsmeow-afk i had to make a joke to take my mind off stress of filling ANOTEHR harddrive on a machine i'd rather not shut down
10:07 Steffanx Go for it katsmeow-afk
10:07 tsmeow-afk puts the de-rar on background idle while moving a gig off the d
10:11 katsmeow-afk if i had to allow 10% of a drive capacity for the nonsense in ntfs $MFS , i'd need 300 gigs of cache ram
10:14 rue_bed yup
10:14 rue_bed I have 1 minute to get up
10:14 rue_bed oops -4
10:19 irql hey
10:19 irql i need help
10:19 Tom_itx ask at the help desk
10:19 irql i have one touch pad taked from a old laptop
10:20 irql k
10:20 irql help desk? xD
10:20 rue_mohr the desk wont help you, your doomed
10:21 irql :(
10:22 irql the pc is a pentium 2
10:23 katsmeow-afk won't work if the computer is a personalcomputer and the touchpad is impersonal
10:23 katsmeow-afk they haveto get along
10:23 irql how do i use this touchpad on arduino
10:24 katsmeow-afk simple, you start by asking in #arduino , oor their http chat thingie
10:24 irql i don't find any datasheet
10:24 irql :(
10:24 irql ok LOL
10:24 rue_mohr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo&NR=1&feature=endscreen
10:24 katsmeow-afk it would be interesting if you had a robot (this is #robotics) that fit on the touchpad, and could be tracked by where it was
10:25 katsmeow-afk "look, we can drive the robot around the touchpad, and the mouse pointer onthe screen follows!"
10:26 irql i think after
10:26 katsmeow-afk ok
10:27 irql I want to know how it works
10:28 irql and after i make a robot
10:28 irql ahahahah
10:28 katsmeow-afk maybe Steffanx can tell you
10:28 Steffanx No, Steffanx can't
10:28 Tom_itx probably a serial interface like a regular mouse
10:29 Tom_itx spewing out x y coordinates
10:29 irql or ps2
10:29 irql red -> Vcc
10:29 irql black -> GND,
10:29 katsmeow-afk Tom, would it not need a hardware driver more complex than a mouse?
10:29 Steffanx usb hid maybe?
10:30 rue_mohr 'm close to the point where I need to write the software to take the rotation and direction data from a castor and get positional data out of it
10:30 Tom_itx all that so you can mow your grass and not miss a spot
10:30 irql orange and brown, dunno
10:30 rue_mohr so I dont have to go mow my lawn
10:31 katsmeow-afk *** rue_mohr is now known as rue_dungeon , getting position data out of the castor wheel
10:31 rue_mohr tho, its been raining for so long that I really wonder why I'm making a machine to mow the lawn
10:31 irql how i know how its work?
10:32 irql looking model can't find anything
10:32 katsmeow-afk http://lmgtfy.com/?q=touchpad
10:32 rue_mohr what kinda connector did it have on it?
10:33 irql 4 connector
10:33 irql red -> Vcc, black->GND, orange->dunno, brown->dunno
10:34 rue_mohr sounds like usb or ps2
10:35 irql i hope ps2
10:35 katsmeow-afk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchpad#Theory_of_operation
10:37 irql http://i.imgur.com/5lKwe.jpg
10:38 katsmeow-afk "AD7142: Programmable Controller for Capacitance Touch Sensors
10:38 katsmeow-afk " ==>> http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-digital-converters/ad-converters/ad7142/products/product.html
10:38 irql http://i.imgur.com/0aACP.jpg
10:39 katsmeow-afk http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=112110
10:40 irql help me find the datasheet
10:42 katsmeow-afk for what?
10:42 irql for this touchpad
10:42 katsmeow-afk i dunno the model, date code, or anyting else about it, i cannot
10:43 katsmeow-afk look for general data on how to hook to one, i gave you urls on how to hack one
10:43 irql http://i.imgur.com/0aACP.jpg katsmeow-afk
10:48 katsmeow-afk this guy built a calculator using a mousepad, included schematics : http://www.cemetech.net/projects/ee/ucalc2/
10:49 rrywolf stretches out next to katsmeow-
10:52 rrywolf doesn't see the point of that calculator, at
10:52 katsmeow-afk you haveto unstretch a lil to see it better
10:53 furrywolf cut the stock calculator board in half, wire your own controller to the keyboard, then stick a proper modern board and a touchscreen lcd in it.
10:53 furrywolf or make your own pcb for the keyboard and other bits
10:53 furrywolf adding a bunch of hardware to the stock tiny system seems... not useful.
10:55 furrywolf there's enough space in the box to fit a plenty powerful system, and if you make your own pcb, you can keep the calculator keys. then just play with keyboard mapping a bit, and run a real computer algebra package on it.
10:56 katsmeow-afk matlab
11:04 rue_mohr so let me get this right
11:04 katsmeow-afk ok
11:04 rue_mohr your taking a touchpad, removing the guts, and installing a calculator thats had the board cut in half, the keyboard, ditched, and a touchscreen put in its place?
11:05 katsmeow-afk not me
11:09 katsmeow-afk http://jaanus.tech-thing.org/skeleton-hand/skeleton-hand-it-moves/
11:18 rue_mohr I'v never seen a winder motor that fast
11:19 katsmeow-afk maybe he is running it on 24v
11:19 rue_mohr wonderr why that h bridge only has 3 transistors
11:20 katsmeow-afk dunno, i didn't study his, i like your's better
11:20 katsmeow-afk connect your puter to the arm, have the arm make a few more arms, then have all those arms make more robots
11:21 katsmeow-afk i need to go out and get carpel tunnel damage, bbl
11:35 rue_mohr http://jaanus.tech-thing.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/PICT0016-300x225.jpg <--- aha! before they were plastic, they were wood!
11:38 rue_mohr http://jaanus.tech-thing.org/everything-thats-not-hardware/free-linux-programs/
11:39 rue_mohr http://jaanus.tech-thing.org/teardowns-and-reviews/gp3974-high-speed-usb-2-0-4-port-hub-for-laptop-480mbps-fake/
11:39 rue_mohr haha wow
11:40 rue_mohr they went to a LOT of work to fake that
11:40 Steffann lol
11:41 rue_mohr why bother with the fake chip!?
11:41 Steffann Best fake ever
11:41 rue_mohr WHY!?
11:41 rue_mohr if someone is gonna open it, they are gonna find out anyhow
11:41 furrywolf power window motors are pretty fast and powerful, but have very short duty cycle and life span.
11:42 rue_mohr I learned they dont make great drive motors for a mowerbot
11:43 furrywolf windshield wiper motors are much better, and easy to make both reversible and double the speed if you get the right ones.
11:43 rue_mohr the ones I got drew 8A ea
11:44 furrywolf you need a windshield wiper motor that has seperate high and low speed inputs going to seperate brushes on the commutator. remove the ground brush, then drive it between the high and low brushes. now it's isolated from the case, and runs twice as fast. :)
11:45 Steffann You guys aren't watching the sparkfun AVC are you? http://www.ustream.tv/channel/avc-2012
11:45 furrywolf ... I have that exact USB hub.
11:45 furrywolf well, not exact, because mine has three things plugged into it, and works.
11:46 Steffann They cloned yours furrywolf
11:46 Steffann 'cloned'
11:46 furrywolf I got it for 99 cents on ebay.
11:46 rue_mohr seller is still active...
11:47 furrywolf I don't know if I've tried actually turning on two things at once...
11:47 Tom_itx rue_mohr, what are the kids doing today?
11:47 rue_mohr readying for the faire next weekend
11:48 furrywolf yep, two things work at once. good. had me worried there. :)
11:49 furrywolf well, and it shows up in a lsusb as a hub, so it has a real hub chip in it.
11:49 furrywolf "Bus 002 Device 003: ID 05e3:0606 Genesys Logic, Inc. USB 2.0 Hub / D-Link DUB-H4 USB 2.0 Hub"
11:52 rue_mohr http://www.ebay.ca/itm/AG1943-1x-ATMEGA32A-PU-MCU-AVR-8-bit-32K-Flash-16MHz-Microcontroller-/280798839499?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item4160ea42cb
11:52 rue_mohr hmmm
11:53 rue_mohr good giveaway if you plug in a usb hub and windows dosn't freeze for 10 mins trying to find drivers or linux dosn't put in a log event about having set up the new hub that its not a rel hub
11:56 furrywolf if it's just an extension cable, the os won't even know it's there.
11:57 rue_mohr which would prolly only lock up windows for a min
11:58 furrywolf it won't know it's there. it'd just be like using an extension cable.
12:00 furrywolf http://www.ebay.com/itm/Morning-Star-Tristar-MPPT-45-amp-solar-charge-controller-w-batt-temp-sensor-/320926673102?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab8b868ce very good price if anyone needs a mppt charge controller
12:03 irql look awesome http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJeUPuZH2xg
12:05 furrywolf why do people think people are going to go to random youtube links with no description?
13:05 dunz0r That's why you have a script installed that tells you the title of youtube-links
13:37 damian_ ping
13:47 katsmeow-afk pong
13:50 Helios I've been trying to melt Delrin today to melt pour and make robot gears, there are 3 videos in this series, enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc-z7b5len0
13:59 rue_mohr no
14:01 katsmeow-afk isn't delrin pricey? (curious)
14:03 rue_mohr it'll soften, but not liquify
14:03 rue_mohr derlin is another name for lexan isn't it?
14:04 katsmeow-afk i think delrin is softer
14:04 katsmeow-afk plexi is anothr name for lexan, iirc
14:07 Helios katsmeow I get it for nothing from the bagpipes factory
14:07 Steffann no, that's not correct katsmeow-afk
14:07 Helios the place that makes the infamously noisey Scottish musical instrument
14:07 Steffann lexan = polycarbonate, plexi = acrylic
14:08 katsmeow-afk i believe you
14:09 Steffann ok, great
14:09 katsmeow-afk some details : http://case-mods.linear1.org/acrylic-lexan-and-plastics-faq/
14:10 Steffann oh, polyacrylate is the right name :_
14:10 Steffann :)
14:10 katsmeow-afk i won't hold that against you
14:11 Steffann ok, great
14:12 katsmeow-afk i don't kow why, but i am not finding text that says explicity that the mouth is part of the face, altho is is said to be part of the head somewhere, or the neck
14:17 rue_mohr katsmeow-afk, do you regard yourself as helpfull to this channel?
14:17 rue_mohr I'm not critisizing, I'm asking
14:17 katsmeow-afk periodically, yeas
14:17 rue_mohr I'm wastich a video that brought up ones self image not matching the image of that person by the rest of the team
14:17 rue_mohr good, cause you are useful
14:18 rue_mohr helpfull :)
14:18 Steffann I think rue_mohr tries to say .. everyone who's not helpful should leave
14:18 Steffann /part :)
14:18 damian_ :(
14:18 rue_mohr pff not
14:18 Steffann :P
14:19 rue_mohr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsndhCQ5hRY&feature=fvwp&NR=1
14:19 rue_mohr watch that and tell me what you get out of it
14:19 rue_mohr are we all a team, yes and no
14:19 Steffann Hmpf, flash crashed again
14:19 damian_ how about people who "make a negative impact on the channel"?
14:19 Steffann They get banned
14:19 Steffann Ask that danish guy
14:19 rue_mohr Steffann, for what its worth, their obsoleting flash for html5
14:20 Steffann Yes, but that video seems to be flash only
14:20 damian_ yay html5 video
14:20 rue_mohr damian_, we put up with some negitivity, there needs to be some room for play...
14:20 Steffann DanFrederiksen knows that happens
14:23 katsmeow-afk http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/99000/Def-Leppard--99221.jpg
14:23 katsmeow-afk meow
14:23 rue_mohr cute
14:23 katsmeow-afk i think that sums it up
14:33 rue_mohr huh divergent thinkers...
14:33 Helios OK here are the results of my partially melted delrin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-98gZvgG1w
14:35 Helios Its very strong
14:35 Helios I can't break it by hand
14:36 rue_mohr hmmm
14:37 rue_mohr why dont you use hdpe or ldpe?\
14:42 Helios HDPE and LDPE cannot be melted, only injection molded
14:42 Helios Delrin CAN
14:42 Helios But Lexi's come home and complained about the smell, it was the smoking oil
16:29 katsmeow-afk something i don't understand about racing cars, it doesn't look to me like anyone is trying to win till the last lap
16:31 katsmeow-afk if it were me, i'd make the car so aerodynamic, and add a blower, so there is an extreme phenominal downforce, then i'd add so much hp that all the fuel is gone in 10 laps, this way you can get an entire lap on the field, come in for fuel, and there afer all you haveto do is keep the lead
16:31 katsmeow-afk after the first 10 laps, you'd be so far ahead, because you could keep the throttle wide open even in turns, due to downforce
16:32 Tom_itx they would pass out
16:33 katsmeow-afk pressure suits
16:34 katsmeow-afk after you gas up the first time, your fuel stops would be only as often as anyone else, unless you opened it up again
16:40 damian_ IT CLICKED!
16:40 katsmeow-afk GREAT!
16:40 katsmeow-afk what clicked?
16:40 damian_ but I can't make it click again :(
16:41 damian_ my relay switch
16:41 damian_ I haven't been able to do that before
16:41 damian_ I just cd'ed into /dev and did "echo 1>ttyUSB0"
16:42 damian_ maybe it is seeing the number as an ascii code
16:45 katsmeow-afk well, i have no clue how you have it wired up, but now it's on, you haveto turn it off, so echo 2 to it
16:46 katsmeow-afk or 3
16:46 katsmeow-afk or 4
16:46 katsmeow-afk or F
16:46 damian_ well, it isn't broken because I disconnected the power and tried again and it clicked
16:47 damian_ trying to echo anything after the first time doesn't seem to work
16:47 damian_ I should look at the manual again
16:48 katsmeow-afk ascii for 1 is 49, which is binary for 110001 , so if you now echo N which is 1001110 , the relay should click off
16:49 katsmeow-afk then you can click it on again by echoing 1 to it again
16:49 damian_ nothing happened :/
16:49 katsmeow-afk i am assuming it is echoing "1" and not 1
16:50 katsmeow-afk echo 1, then N then 1 again
16:50 katsmeow-afk but like i say, i dunno how you have it wired in
16:52 katsmeow-afk which ever pin is pulling it in on the bit pattern for "1", "N" is the reverse bit pattern that you can easily get to with the keybd
16:52 damian_ I tried it with and without quotes hoping that might change something
16:53 katsmeow-afk without quotes
16:53 damian_ I tried without first
16:54 katsmeow-afk unless it really is sending 1 and not "1", in which case send 2 , not "2" , because i think you cannot send a zero/null (maybe you can), but binary 2 has bit one off
16:54 damian_ the thing is I tried many different characters and nothing affected it
16:55 katsmeow-afk do you have a wire to the relay on a plugboard/protoboard?
16:55 damian_ honestly I have no idea what the wires connected to it are doing
16:56 katsmeow-afk did you read what i wrote?
16:56 katsmeow-afk i did not ask what any were doing, i asked if there IS a wire
16:56 katsmeow-afk to the relay coil
16:58 katsmeow-afk ok, too long, tis cannot end well
16:58 katsmeow-afk i'll bbl
16:58 damian_ well what I have is USB-RS232 converter connected to a board, which has two other boards connected to it which I assume are the things that are supposed to energize and deenergize (thats what the manual calls it)
17:01 damian_ what I should probably do is bring this to my local robotics group and see what they have to say about it (because they can actually play with it and test things)
17:02 rue_mohr so, I think I'v fix my state machine genorator up enough to have made a state machine that will take the encoder data from the castor wheel of the mowerbot and translate it into a pulse stream that can be put thru an IR link, (to get around the rotating bearing) and be properly decoded by a microcontroller on the other side
17:03 damian_ actually I think this right here is what I have
17:03 damian_ it looks mostly the same
17:06 damian_ doh, I didn't paste the link... http://eeci.com/ar-16.jpg
17:14 damian_ ok, got a picture of my own setup: http://members.thebestisp.com/~damian/linked/ar-16_relay.jpg
17:15 damian_ the grey cable coming from the left is the RS232 end of the adapter I have and the black one right below it is from a power adapter
17:18 damian_ it appears that trying to give it multiple characters at once doesn't do anything (eg "echo 12>ttyUSB0") but giving it one character right after will cause a click (eg "echo 1>ttyUSB0")
17:30 damian_ brb
18:02 damian_ going to the Y
18:13 rue_shop katsmeow-afk,
18:13 rue_shop what can I use as a crude shielding gas to do a really tiny tig weld
18:14 rue_shop oo why not use exhaust from a fire
18:14 e_shop th
18:15 rue_shop or I could get a bottle of soda, make a cap with a pipe, and let it vent over the weld while I do it
18:42 rue_shop something like a sand blasting box would be cool, just put a candle in it and wait for the air to run out
18:42 rue_shop then do the tig welding in there
18:51 katsmeow-afk you can deplete the O2, but you'd doing everything to make it a carbon-rich environment
18:53 katsmeow-afk goto a place that puts nitrogen into car tires, get your spare full of nitrogen
18:53 katsmeow-afk or, crazy thought, goto welding supply place, and get some tig gas, or get some flux-core wire
18:54 katsmeow-afk some dept stores have tig flux wire
19:00 GuShH rue_mohr: welding steel or alu?
19:00 GuShH rue_mohr: carbon dioxide is part of steel shield mix (of course, with argon... which you don't seem to have at the moment)
19:00 katsmeow-afk damian, do whatever you do after power-on that makes a relay click once, then unplug the cable to the relay board, and see if the relay drops out
19:01 GuShH rue_shop: how thick is the work piece anyway
19:01 katsmeow-afk GuShH, keep in mind his candle in a sandblast hood only depletes the O2, it isn't eliminated
19:01 GuShH it's not going to work properly
19:01 GuShH hes going to get nasty oxides
19:01 katsmeow-afk i agree
19:01 GuShH similar to soldering without flux
19:02 katsmeow-afk if i run oout of weld rods on a weekend (never happens) i don't switch to coat hangers
19:03 GuShH lol
19:03 GuShH I've seen a video of a dude trying to stick weld with coat hanger wire..
19:06 GuShH katsmeow-afk: my last fix (broken pc chair) http://gushh.net/tmp/weld.jpg smaw ac 100A "meh"
19:07 GuShH Whoever designed it was an idiot anyway, it's 4mm thick but they have a weak spot on each corner.
19:07 GuShH It means your ass lands on the floor.
19:09 Tom_itx using flux core wire you need to reverse the polarity over solid wire
19:09 Tom_itx it spatters alot too
19:10 Tom_itx i used to gas weld with coat hangars
19:10 katsmeow-afk i can't tell what http://gushh.net/tmp/weld.jpg is, or why it lands your ass on the floor
19:11 katsmeow-afk brazing rods or silphos is almost as good as steel for gas welding, for non-structural stuff where you life is't depending on it
19:12 GuShH katsmeow-afk: part of a chair, I said
19:12 GuShH katsmeow-afk: because once it breaks your ass hits the floor?
19:12 ShH is not fat, but likes to abuse ch
19:15 katsmeow-afk i do not know what part of the chair, but it doesn't matter
19:15 GuShH bottom plate, you asked.
19:16 katsmeow-afk i refuse to bring my ass up there and throw it onto your floor
19:16 GuShH they cover it in plastic so you can't see it when you buy them new
19:16 GuShH Impossible with my �ber welds it can't break...
19:16 m_itx g
19:17 katsmeow-afk i am thinking i do not want to go back outside and keep doing whatever it was i was doing
19:17 m_itx convinces katsmeow-afk no
19:17 ShH hands katsmeow-afk a
19:17 katsmeow-afk Tom it worked, i think i'll make a loop around and collect tools up, and call it a nite,, unless i work in the cellar later
19:18 tsmeow-afk changes the beer into a wine cooler or flowery mixed d
19:18 GuShH no girly drinks sorry.
19:18 tsmeow-afk hands it
19:18 GuShH I've only got beer and scotch
19:19 ShH hides the
19:19 katsmeow-afk scotch and coke? scotch and orange juice?
19:19 katsmeow-afk rum?
19:19 GuShH I have orange trees! so yes
19:19 katsmeow-afk whiskey?
19:19 GuShH I made jam
19:19 katsmeow-afk orange trees have no oranges on them now
19:19 katsmeow-afk oh
19:19 GuShH they do where I am
19:19 GuShH http://gushh.net/tmp/orange1.jpg
19:20 katsmeow-afk the place i sought to buy in Fla this past winter has very tastey orange trees
19:20 GuShH I need to get ride of the white spots on the trees...
19:20 GuShH rid*
19:21 GuShH ...and the ants
19:22 katsmeow-afk yep, that's what orange trees look like, i miss them
19:22 ShH throws an orange at katsmeow
19:22 katsmeow-afk watch those green branches, if they get spines on them, cut em off quick
19:23 GuShH oh?
19:23 tsmeow-afk
19:23 katsmeow-afk almost all orange trees are grafts of tame ornages onto wild stock
19:23 GuShH I've been cleaning up the area with the chainsaw, lots of other trees are taking over and stealing the sun!
19:24 katsmeow-afk the wilds make a better root system, but the dna gets up into the tree you get branches with thorns and spines, and the oranges get bitter nad less sweet
19:25 katsmeow-afk eventually, the branches with spines will kill off those tame branches, and you can dig out the tree and toss it
19:26 GuShH asshole, now I want to go outside to check on them, it's freezing cold.
19:26 katsmeow-afk <blink>
19:26 ShH c
19:26 katsmeow-afk they'll get mushy if they freeze
19:26 GuShH I've been turning them into jam!
19:27 tsmeow-afk thinks she'll go do that real life stuff since she's now an asshole on
19:27 katsmeow-afk bbl
19:27 GuShH If I die it's your fault.
19:43 furrywolf katsmeow-afk: there have been racing cars that did things like that... one was an anti-hovercraft, with a skirt and large blowers aiming up, sucking it to the road... back in the '60s I think. it was banned from whatever race it was in.
19:43 furrywolf one of the big names.
19:45 furrywolf and my connection is too crappy to chat. blah. bbl.
22:10 damian_ YES!
22:10 damian_ echo -e "\xFF\x01\x00">ttyUSB0
22:11 damian_ apparently I don't need the second character, still clicks fine
22:11 furrywolf and.... so? :)
22:12 furrywolf ah
22:12 damian_ I had no idea how to get my relay working, seems I need to send char(255) first
22:13 furrywolf didn't get too much yard saling today... 8 heavy-duty plastic tubs (the commercial duty ones, not the walmart ones), a set of hole saws up to 5", an edge tuner for ford 6.0 diesels, a pile of files, and a worklight.
22:13 furrywolf now I'm wasting more time overriding ebay's css to make their search useful again.
22:14 damian_ well, now that I got my relay to respond using terminal, time to try it via php
22:16 furrywolf please make sure you only give php permissions to write to that exact serial device, such as changing the device's group to the web server's group and using g+rw, rather than making php run as root or other really, really, should not do it things...
22:17 damian_ shouldn't matter too much once I start testing on separate hardware, should it?
22:17 rrywolf has seen very scary things like that
22:18 damian_ besides once I get the computer (whatever it ends up being) I can just flash the whole thing if I break it
22:18 furrywolf generally assume anything php has access to write to will be noticed by hackers. php is very good at letting people find ways to make it write stuff.
22:19 damian_ oh, it wont be exposed to networks
22:19 furrywolf either through bugs in php or bugs in coding.
22:19 damian_ well aside from a personal wifi access point
22:24 damian_ hoorah it works
22:24 damian_ php -r 'file_put_contents("/dev/ttyUSB0",chr(255).chr(8));'
22:29 damian_ gonna have to write up a foreach loop to make it click like crazy now :D
22:30 furrywolf what're you building?
22:30 damian_ eventually, a quadcopter
22:30 damian_ for now I'm just playing with a relay switch
22:33 GuShH damian_: long ways from relays to quadcopters!
22:33 damian_ yeah, but unless you have a goal, you don't know where to start
22:34 GuShH chances are you won't be using a relay on it though
22:34 zhanx did an epic dinner party and i only made salads and bread
22:34 zhanx i got a ton of 1/3 bottles of wine now
22:34 damian_ most likely, but its a good way to get started learning
22:34 damian_ for my first project, I'll probably make a binary clock from leds
22:35 damian_ then I can hear it click every single second :D
22:35 ShH fears it won't last too
22:36 damian_ ?
22:36 GuShH relays have ratings and limitations, like everything in this world
22:36 GuShH after n cycles the device becomes unreliable
22:36 damian_ ah, neat
22:36 zhanx rue got the base for my lab set back up
22:36 damian_ still gonna try it though
22:37 GuShH when switching big loads, it's mainly due to the contact erosion
22:37 GuShH otherwise mechanical stress.
22:37 damian_ otherwise I have nothing to start with before I make my quadcopter
22:37 zhanx gonna start cnc'n my new robot soon
22:37 zhanx and i want to type that as rovot
22:38 GuShH rotob
22:38 GuShH damian_: I hope you don't plan on using PHP for this >_<
22:39 damian_ I'm gonna get complaints from a lot of people about using php aren't I?
22:39 zhanx yep
22:39 damian_ ug
22:39 GuShH it's simply not the right tool in this case
22:39 furrywolf yep
22:39 zhanx we will tell you to learn another language
22:40 damian_ it's not a commonly used tool for robotics, but I see no reason why its a bad choice
22:40 ace4016 :)
22:40 ace4016 there are bad reasons
22:40 GuShH famous last words
22:40 zhanx but don't mine me, i only make robots
22:40 ace4016 mind*
22:40 zhanx thanks
22:40 ShH idly mines z
22:40 furrywolf php is slow and unreliable. :)
22:41 GuShH it's amazing that php is still alive.
22:41 zhanx had a dinner party tonight i am messed up
22:41 furrywolf why would a dinner party make you messed up?
22:41 furrywolf sounds more like you had a drinking party.
22:41 ace4016 drinking at dinner
22:42 damian_ really? is there something noticeably better for server side processing?
22:43 damian_ for web I mean
22:44 furrywolf it's acceptable for web server-side scripts.
22:44 ace4016 ruby, perl, lisp, haven't used asp.net but some people like that; cgi....
22:44 zhanx i just pulled all the batteries out of my remotes and my stereo is still being crazy
22:44 furrywolf not for quadcopter navigational systems. :)
22:44 zhanx ahh
22:44 zhanx girl has ir hat on
22:44 ace4016 lol
22:45 ace4016 awesome
22:45 zhanx i was like wtf
22:45 damian_ it isn't going to pilot itself, just programming the balancing mostly
22:45 zhanx who is turning down the stereo
22:45 zhanx then i spotted the led's in the hat,
22:45 ace4016 damian_, most likely, on the robot you'll want to avoid terrible langauges; on the commanding unit...have fun with whatever
22:46 zhanx great hack mute all radio's
22:47 ace4016 telling it to go up/down/left/right, speed up, slow down, etc. you can write in whatever you want; i'd recommend the stuff on the robot though be more "conventional"
22:47 furrywolf flight systems should be simple C++ with either no OS or a real-time OS.
22:47 furrywolf control systems can be anything, including php.
22:47 ace4016 be careful when saying control systems :P
22:47 ace4016 to someone like me, flight system is the control system
22:48 zhanx and me
22:49 furrywolf things that directly operate details of the craft (control surfaces, servos, sensors, speed controllers, etc) should be real time with c++.
22:49 furrywolf things that give overall commands to this system (fly north) could be php.
22:49 ace4016 aye, that's what i said earlier :P
22:50 ace4016 keep the php off the bot :D
22:50 ace4016 (you should learn another langauge; php is the bastard child of perl and C in an abusive relationship throughout pregnancy, involving drugs...lost of drugs)
22:51 damian_ yay I wrote a simple script to make it turn off (or on) all the relays :D
22:51 GuShH hahaha
22:51 ace4016 lots*
22:51 ShH pictures a relay driven quadco
22:51 damian_ now that I know how to turn them on/off, now I just need a use for it
22:51 damian_ before the quadcopter project
22:52 GuShH so that's it, first relays then a quadcopter
22:52 damian_ for the quadcopter I'll use something faster
22:52 GuShH you are doing it all wrong :(
22:52 GuShH there are so many things you aren't aware of
22:52 damian_ I realize I am unaware of many things
22:52 GuShH if anyone were to enumerate them you'd probably quit the irc server.
22:52 GuShH just saying.
22:52 damian_ I just don't realize what I'm not realizing :D
22:52 furrywolf I made a relay-driven r/c car.
22:53 GuShH plus why is everyone obsessed with quadcopters?
22:53 GuShH build something new already
22:53 GuShH it got old many years ago.
22:53 damian_ no :P
22:53 furrywolf dunno. they seem stupidly popular lately.
22:53 GuShH there is an entire market around it now
22:53 furrywolf and always a quadcopter, never a tricopter nor pentacopter.
22:54 GuShH they are using dead cats now ...
22:54 damian_ I considered a tricopter, but that would be harder and probably wouldn't fly as well
22:55 ace4016 ?
22:55 ace4016 harder how?
22:55 damian_ I'm already trying to do something hard right off the bat, don't need it any harder
22:55 Tom_itx GuShH quads seem to be the trend now
22:55 furrywolf I should make a dodecacopter or something like that.
22:55 furrywolf just to annoy people.
22:55 GuShH http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/orville-taxidermy-cat-quadcopter.jpg
22:55 ace4016 lol
22:55 GuShH I feel like punching that guy
22:55 GuShH his cat got run over, what does he do? turns it into a quadcopter.
22:56 furrywolf probably friends with ketas.
22:56 ShH is waiting for the quadpig
22:56 damian_ tricopter doesn't have an even number of propellers so to adjust yaw one of them needs to tilt, plus I combine pitch and roll for two of the propellers if I say one of them is solely for pitch
22:56 ace4016 wouldn't be the first furrywolf
22:57 GuShH That guy has no emotion
22:57 GuShH no feelings
22:57 GuShH no nothing
22:57 furrywolf ketas is a psychopath in every definition.
22:57 ace4016 damian_, swashplate
22:58 GuShH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S4DZ_aWNuU < quadcat
22:58 ace4016 also, why not just a twin rotor? not enough twin rotors
22:59 GuShH your pocket would feel a lot nicer if you went for a single rotor.
22:59 ace4016 (V-22 confige, not H-46 config)
22:59 damian_ I actually considered that for the quadcopter before realizing I could do counter rotating propellers, dunno why I didn't consider that for a tricopter
22:59 GuShH just glue 4 dummy props to the sides.
22:59 furrywolf single rotor means he needs to figure out how to build collective.
23:00 ace4016 which isn't hard :P
23:00 damian_ don't worry I already have a lot to learn :D
23:00 damian_ such as which language to use >.>
23:00 furrywolf ace4016: building collective yourself, instead of using a kit, probably exceeds most people's fabrication skills.
23:00 GuShH autogyros were the-thing about 30 years ago :p
23:00 ace4016 most people don't worry about the rotors and pitch and stuff, which is why they have so many god damn rotors
23:00 ShH always wanted a gyroco
23:01 GuShH used to see them at the rc club
23:01 furrywolf actually, collective is probably easy. cyclic is the hard part.
23:01 damian_ I did consider a separate propeller for yaw until I realize how quadcopters worked
23:01 GuShH damian_: C? see you in 10 years!
23:02 GuShH If you want to be the cool kid in town, build this http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/yak_vvp-6.php
23:02 damian_ unless I find a problem with php myself, I probably wont use something else
23:03 GuShH after all the bullshit I had to put up with in ##e, I don't think I can even try to help someone else for a long time.
23:03 furrywolf so you're one of those "I'd rather learn the hard way" types.
23:03 damian_ unfortunately :P
23:03 furrywolf hint: there are NO real-world quadcopters. :)
23:04 damian_ either that or I believe someone else's reason would affect me
23:04 furrywolf and no use of php in the flight or other critical systems of any vehicle.
23:04 GuShH there is one
23:04 GuShH furrywolf: idiots have been known to build 1:1 scale models and fly on them
23:04 damian_ example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L75ESD9PBOw
23:04 GuShH but other than that, the only real-world ones are small scale and see use in various fields
23:05 damian_ quadcopter used to build: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnkMyfQ5YfY
23:05 furrywolf why don't you paste real web sites, instead of youtube?
23:06 damian_ how is it not "real"?
23:06 GuShH damian_: one thing is for certain, no php on that.
23:07 damian_ a lot of idiots use youtube, but youtube itself isn't bad
23:07 GuShH damian_: because it makes you spend N minutes to get a message that could've been conveyed in a small paragraph plus a small picture?
23:07 damian_ I realize php isn't use much if at all for robotics
23:07 furrywolf lol, the device I'm trying to sell is apparantly illegal in california. in soviet california, smog controls you
23:07 GuShH well, minutes, bandwidth, patience
23:07 furrywolf !
23:07 GuShH What device?
23:07 GuShH Everything is illegal in California.
23:07 furrywolf a diesel programmer
23:08 furrywolf if you want to play with the fuel controls on your truck
23:08 damian_ sure, but I don't know of a picture right off the bat, I knew of the video AND I said what the video was about
23:08 damian_ at least the second time I said what it was about
23:08 furrywolf a video tells me a lot less than a proper web site with text and, if needed, images.
23:09 furrywolf and tells it to me a lot slower.
23:09 damian_ I agree, but I had seen the video yesterday, so it was easy to pull up and share
23:10 ace4016 that's why video tutorials are terrible, but people seem to like to waste thier time
23:11 damian_ I hate video tutorials
23:11 rue_mohr am I ever here anymore?
23:11 damian_ especially the ones that go on forever explaining a simple concept before moving on with the rest of the tutorial
23:11 ShH goes off to play some pool, reading about php and quadcopters made him b
23:12 damian_ :P
23:13 furrywolf rue_mohr: ?
23:13 damian_ also found this neat, a swarm of small quadcopters that act together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiCFtmdrvHM&t=42s
23:14 Tom_itx !seen rue_mohr
23:14 tobbor rue_mohr is here
23:14 rrywolf continues doing the same thing everyone else is doing, ignoring youtube li
23:14 Tom_itx rue_mohr, tobbor seems to think you are
23:14 damian_ :D
23:15 ace4016 that swarm, if it's what i think it is, is boring
23:16 damian_ I understand the general hate of youtube for things like "fat old guy yells at kids on his lawn"
23:16 ace4016 yup...same video i thought it was
23:16 ace4016 :/
23:16 furrywolf damian_: I generally hate video for anything better explained with text and images.
23:16 furrywolf which is roughly 99% of everything useful.
23:17 ace4016 formations aren't impressive...not until they are dynamic and not precalculated positions to fly along
23:17 damian_ me too, but a short video is also nice for quickly demonstrating something
23:18 furrywolf if I see something demonstrated, I also want a description and possibly hyperlinks to other information.
23:18 ShH wonders if furrywolf sells s
23:18 damian_ yeah, once you have a way of getting coordinates for each quadcopter it should be very easy
23:18 furrywolf GuShH: no, but I do have a lot spare, if you need a few.
23:18 furrywolf I sent kludge six entire pepper plants. :)
23:18 damian_ anyone here know of Garry's Mod?
23:18 furrywolf soil and all!
23:18 rue_mohr wonder if there is a reprap model for a quadcopter yet
23:18 GuShH o.o
23:18 ace4016 yes
23:19 ace4016 Garry's Mod is old
23:19 ace4016 well, he updates it often but...
23:19 GuShH furrywolf: are they doing well?
23:19 ace4016 old project :P
23:19 furrywolf he said they were last time I asked.
23:19 ShH can't find his wool
23:20 furrywolf I'm too fed up with ##e to bother going there to ask him.
23:20 damian_ I've done some flying toys in gmod, so aside from incorrect physics (no air friction), I got a headstart on making this quadcopter work
23:21 furrywolf I have a gmp cricket I should fix up one of these days.
23:21 GuShH furrywolf: I haven't been there in a few days, it turns out there are bigger idiots than me in there.
23:21 furrywolf it's 20 years old and has 4 seconds of flight time on it.
23:21 furrywolf the guy built it, figured he'd just take off with no practice at all, didn't get the trim right, went up three inches, flipped, broke the tail blades, never fixed it.
23:22 ace4016 one thing i dislike about a lot of hobby helicopters is the small blades
23:22 furrywolf has a .50 nitro. beats any electric quadcopterthingy. :)
23:23 ShH has a .46 magnum xl on his plane, said plane had < 5 minutes of flight time before the wings decided to giv
23:23 furrywolf heh. at least it flew! this guy flipped it literally three inches off the ground.
23:23 GuShH I never felt so empty, I worked so much on it and it was gone in a second.
23:24 furrywolf he didn't bother testing it, or learning to fly it... just mashed the throttle.
23:24 furrywolf mashing the throttle on a .50 nitro without setting any of the trims, checking your balance, or anything else... not bright.
23:24 damian_ huh, I tried my clicker script without prepending each relay command with chr(255) and it still worked.... I am confused
23:25 furrywolf what is the device you're talking to?
23:25 damian_ relay interface over a USB to RS232 adapter
23:25 furrywolf and does the documentation say it needs a 0xff before every command? or only at initialization? or never?
23:26 damian_ I haven't looked at the manual since the first time, I don't remember it mentioning 0xff
23:28 damian_ I just googled around and a couple places mention doing 'echo -e"\xff\x01\x00"' for off and 'echo -e"\xff\x01\x01"' for on in a linux terminal
23:28 damian_ then just feed that into /dev/ttyUSB0
23:28 damian_ didn't see the point of the second character though
23:30 furrywolf maybe you should RTFM?
23:31 e_mohr slaps furryw
23:31 rue_mohr you should never use that word
23:31 furrywolf I got an ac/dc fluorescent light at a yard sale today... it has a button on the side, labeled "for push only". it appears to be the starter. lol
23:31 furrywolf maybe, you, or should?
23:31 furrywolf because rtfm isn't a word, it's an acronym.
23:32 ace4016 and 80% of questions could be answered if you just rtfm :P
23:32 rue_mohr damian_, you need to send binary to a serial port?
23:32 ace4016 he doesn't know what values he has to send through
23:32 rue_mohr so whats the model of the device?
23:32 furrywolf hrmm, light seems pretty worthless brightness wise.
23:35 damian_ I got the relay working fine, I just don't know what is necessary to send to it, 0xff seems harmless though
23:36 furrywolf ... this is why they're a manual. which you should read.
23:36 furrywolf blindly doing things with no idea what you're doing is not a good idea.
23:37 furrywolf there's a
23:37 damian_ I'll get to it, later...
23:38 damian_ I read it before, but didn't notice that I needed anything aside from knowing that the on state comes right after the off state
23:38 damian_ eg 0&1, 2&3
23:39 damian_ but that was a long time ago, probably a year or more ago
23:39 furrywolf manual-reading is not a one-time thing.
23:44 damian_ I intend to read it again soon, don't worry
23:44 damian_ but for now I'm gonna go out to the fire my family is doing
23:59 ace4016 someone make a tachikoma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachikoma