#robotics Logs
Jun 13 2012
#robotics Calendar
00:24 katsmeow-afk i forgot about Glenn Yarbrough until i heard "baby the rain must fall"
01:14 rrywolf curls up next to katsmeow-afk for bed
01:14 tsmeow-afk keeps on do
10:27 Tom_itx http://www2.electronicproducts.com/How_to_securely_transfer_data_through_your_body-article-fajb_bioacoustic_data_transfer_jun2012-html.aspx
11:05 rrywolf stretches out and y
12:45 -hubbard.freenode.net:#robotics- [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
13:53 Sunnyday Here's my robot: http://i.imgur.com/TuqHL.jpg
13:59 Sunnyday http://imgur.com/uRvcW,apsCE,utdUw
14:00 Sunnyday http://i.imgur.com/utdUw.jpg
14:01 furrywolf how is that a robot, and why are there holes in the hull of something that shouldn't have any?
14:03 Sunnyday ie the kayak?
14:03 Sunnyday Do you like it?
14:03 Sunnyday It means I can pull my kayak along without scratching the hull, its my own invention
14:03 furrywolf how does that make it a robot?
14:04 Sunnyday Well its got wheels metal, the kayak has a compass the engine is me pulling and the navigation is me seeing
14:04 Sunnyday It goes in and out of the water
14:04 Sunnyday Its a prosthetic aid for a kayak that allows it to be pulled
14:05 Sunnyday Much like a robot arm but more primitive
14:06 furrywolf ... sounds completely irrelevant to robotics.
14:07 Sunnyday So I assembled a box of wheels and metal, What more does it need to qualify as a robot?
14:08 furrywolf electronic or mechanical controls of some form? automation or programming? input and output devices?
14:08 furrywolf I'm going to assume you're trolling, and go back to doing useful things. bbl.
14:09 Sunnyday I'm really upset now, I spent hours making that and showed you some photos of it and you don't like it :(
14:15 GuShH_ Sunnyday: example robotics http://blog.vinu.co.in/2012/06/two-servo-walking-robot-using-ti.html
14:18 Sunnyday So it MUST walk to be a robot?
16:14 katsmeow-afk Sunnyday, humans have been building devices which are tele-operated for 100 years or more, none of those have been called robots, what you have is a wheelbarrow made with a kayak, you cannot seriously paddle that thing with the drag of the wheels in the water
16:15 Sunnyday Its a FOLD UP wheelbarrow for a kayak
16:15 Sunnyday see how brilliantly simple it is?
16:16 Sunnyday But it also transforms from your over-land transportation system to what props up your solar concentrator for solar cooking your food on the beach
16:16 Sunnyday I have one
16:16 Sunnyday And once I have worked on manual systems on how to do these things, I shall automate them
16:16 Sunnyday Island hopping von neumann probes
16:17 Sunnyday followed by inerstellar von neumann probes that automatically build us a road
16:19 katsmeow-afk why do your robotic probes need a human transportation system?
16:22 Sunnyday The sea one is one a man must see things and imagine things and build things spur of the moment to advance open source tech enough to know how to tell machines to make stuff that will work with that planet, that terrain, that pressure, that air pressure, that gravity, that temperature, radiation levels anything that may make that robot ideal for one location doesn't mean the next environment
16:22 Sunnyday is better. I am evoloving my kayak to allow it to be used on the cylcepath without grinding the hull to zero. Similarly a successful outer space von neumann probe would have to work on avoiding meteorites, sharp slopey mountains, space dragons etc :p
16:23 ace4016 hrm...part of me actually wants to work on some modifications of a kayak for my parapilegic friend
16:23 ace4016 also, i want to create a wheelchair where using a single ball as the wheel :P
16:24 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/canoe%20pontoons.html
16:25 Sunnyday Ace4016, could be done with 12 accelerometers I reckon
16:25 katsmeow-afk Sunnyday, i would not drill a hole in the bottom for that bolt for any amount money
16:25 Sunnyday What are you on about? The bolt only rests inside the skeg of the kayak, it does not perforate the hull at all
16:26 katsmeow-afk the very long bolt that is up under the hull is not thru the hull?
16:26 Sunnyday Correct
16:26 Sunnyday Do you know what a skeg is?
16:27 katsmeow-afk so you compress the bolt when the hull rests on it?
16:27 ace4016 a skinny keg
16:27 katsmeow-afk center rib
16:27 Sunnyday There's a watertight section right at the back with a cuboidal cavity. Inside that cavity resides a black sheet of polypropyline
16:27 Sunnyday It is switch operated
16:27 katsmeow-afk a switch operated sheet of plastic
16:28 katsmeow-afk what does the plastic do when you press it's buttons?
16:28 Sunnyday The skeg goes up and down, when down you go straight, when up you move about or transport the boat. That gap is big enough for a 10mm bolt to rest in and the threads along the floor push that 10mmbolt snug into the front wall of the skeg hangar
16:28 Sunnyday It folds down
16:28 Sunnyday It comes up
16:28 Sunnyday It folds down
16:28 Sunnyday It comes up
16:29 katsmeow-afk wait,, the wheel affair is on the rear of the boat, not the front?
16:29 Sunnyday I didn't use it during the channel, I was skimming the waves fast
16:29 Sunnyday Karsmeow, correct
16:29 katsmeow-afk aaaaahhhhhhh , so you used a rudderpost hole?
16:30 Sunnyday That's what you call it, ok yes
16:30 katsmeow-afk see, you need more words on your pages,, and that wasn't your page, but still
16:30 katsmeow-afk it wasn't obvious that was the stern of the boat
16:30 Sunnyday http://i.imgur.com/TuqHL.jpg
16:31 Sunnyday http://imgur.com/uRvcW,apsCE,utdUw#0
16:31 Sunnyday http://imgur.com/uRvcW,apsCE,utdUw#1
16:31 Sunnyday http://imgur.com/uRvcW,apsCE,utdUw#2
16:31 Sunnyday The reason for the snug fit bolt resting against the front wall is to ensure the collapsable wheels remain straight
16:33 katsmeow-afk my outriggers for the canoe originally used the oarlogs, but they are too fragile, so i eventually used ratchet tiedown straps under the hull, with the 1" square tubing for the outriggers laying where the existing spreaders are on the canoe
16:33 katsmeow-afk yeas, it all makes more sence now i know the wheel assy uses the rudder accomodation on the stern
16:34 katsmeow-afk if you ever learn to weld, and/or can build with aluminum, you can cut the weight of that assy in half
16:34 katsmeow-afk and make it fold up
16:37 Sunnyday Katsmeow I like your thinking, door hinges maybe?
16:38 katsmeow-afk or just tubing on the axle
16:39 Sunnyday As it stands the 2 things sticking up unbolt, so do the wheels and ls the middle bit is long and thin and goes into the top of the hull for ease of access
16:39 katsmeow-afk btw, i know usa don't use words like in uk, but the "piece of plastic" you refer to, in the usa we'd call that a fold-up keel, a daggerboard, a centerboard
16:40 katsmeow-afk in the usa, the skeg does not move
16:40 katsmeow-afk pics and things at http://duckduckgo.com/?q=sailboat+anatomy
16:40 Sunnyday When a loch is reached or a closest gap between non intersecting rivers and the only way to go from one to the other is overland say 100m or more, the foldable system makes this ideal for non combustion gas based transportation of a non combustion gas powered vehicle. Totally ecologically and economically friendly
16:41 Sunnyday I have a BRITISH made boat :p
16:41 katsmeow-afk i agree, with one added point: 24" bike tires would be easier to roll, especially with camping gear in the kayak, and the bike tires gve more ground clearance
16:42 katsmeow-afk a 3" rock would hang the wheels you have now
16:42 Sunnyday How do I fit 24" bike tyres into the hold of the kayak?
16:43 Sunnyday I need like 10
16:43 Sunnyday "
16:43 Sunnyday wheels
16:43 katsmeow-afk you hinge them to fold out back and up onto the top of the kayak, and use them as brackets to hold things aboard,, and that way you can also flip them down when beaching
16:44 Sunnyday Flip out wheels?
16:44 katsmeow-afk flips back and down under and cinch up tight with a rope, so you can haul out without going back in, or dragging the boat out before dropping the wheels
16:45 Sunnyday If those things are sticking out on my upside of my hold it will make self rescue a total bitch!
16:45 katsmeow-afk ok
16:46 katsmeow-afk on the other paw, if they are fat tires on aluminum, they'd float, and help self-right
16:47 katsmeow-afk or fat tires on plastic hubs
16:47 Sunnyday And slow down
16:47 Sunnyday I have a polished body
16:47 katsmeow-afk you can get fat tires on plastic scooter and wheelchair hubs
16:47 Sunnyday Not a bad idea
16:49 tsmeow-afk ponders hinges on the axle right at the tire, so the tires lay flat on top of the k
16:51 katsmeow-afk not that the'd stick up much anyhow, because they'd be straddling the hull when on top
16:51 katsmeow-afk so even a 24" tire would stick up only 12"
16:52 katsmeow-afk anyhoo, i need to go do tings irl, bbl
19:25 zhanx there got my irc client setup right
19:25 antman8969 Is there anyone in this channel that I could perhaps ask some grounding questions?
19:25 katsmeow-afk yes
19:26 katsmeow-afk thee perhaps is
19:26 antman8969 lol great, alright here it goes...
19:26 antman8969 I purchased a laptop ac adapter and after plugging it in I noticed that my external monitor had horizontal bars flickering. Googling told me this was a grounding issue
19:27 antman8969 I used a 2-3 prong converter to test and the bars were no longer there when the ground pin was removed
19:27 antman8969 My original laptop adapter works fine though, so that tells me the wiring in thsi building isn't to blame
19:27 zhanx so rip out the ground pin
19:27 antman8969 is it at all unsafe to contniue to use the new adapter with a 2-3 prong converter? I assume its the issue
19:27 katsmeow-afk the cable from the laptop to the monitor should have adequate and proper ground
19:28 antman8969 can that damage the laptop over time? If the adapter coudln't get grouding right, is there something else wrong in there?
19:28 zhanx kat is most likely poor job in the a/c adapter, what brand is it
19:29 antman8969 something called PWR+, I can get a link
19:29 katsmeow-afk while it would be good if either device was grounded, it's not entirely good to have both grounded when there is a grounded signal cable tween them
19:29 antman8969 http://www.amazon.com/As5742g-6426-As5750g-6653-As5750g-6804-As5750g-9656-As7739g-6676/dp/B005LY6DM4/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1339631026&sr=1-1&keywords=AS5750G+ac+adapter
19:29 katsmeow-afk you have heard of "ground loop" ?
19:29 antman8969 Yea, thats what I was just reading about
19:29 katsmeow-afk k
19:29 antman8969 that being said, I dno't know of a solution lol
19:30 katsmeow-afk how is the video if the montor is grounded, and the laptop is on battery power?
19:30 antman8969 perfect
19:30 antman8969 its only when the laptop is running off the new ac adapter
19:30 antman8969 the ac adapter that it came with causes no problems eitehr
19:30 katsmeow-afk ok, then personally, i'd lift the ground on the laptop
19:31 katsmeow-afk reason being the flourescents in the monitor, would be nice to not lift the grounds there
19:31 katsmeow-afk ooooooooooooooo
19:31 zhanx aka yank the ground pin off the plug is the easy way
19:31 katsmeow-afk ONLY the new adaptor, and not the old oem one
19:31 antman8969 yes
19:31 katsmeow-afk well then
19:31 antman8969 so I KNOW its the new adapter
19:31 katsmeow-afk you got a bad new adaptor
19:32 zhanx my idea is the easiest
19:32 antman8969 lol I have a 2-3 prong converter, I don't hink I have to do any ripping
19:32 antman8969 that being said, If I use the converter on the new adapter then the bars go away (obviously)
19:32 antman8969 but is that the right thing to do?
19:32 antman8969 I am assuming there should be no noise at all
19:33 antman8969 well
19:33 antman8969 a reasonabel level
19:33 katsmeow-afk my problem with suggesting you keep using the new adaptor is we all now know it is injecting current into the chassis ground on the laptop, which could eventually fry you
19:33 antman8969 Im most concerned with it reducing my laptop's life lol
19:34 katsmeow-afk it culd fry any other device you have plugged in, especially hot-swap devices
19:35 katsmeow-afk if you unplug the monitor from the laptop and plug it back in, the cable drivers in the laptop, or those int he monitor, could fry
19:35 antman8969 and thats because I would have removed its ground, correct?
19:35 katsmeow-afk if you must, lift the gnd on the new adaptor, but i'd recommend you toss/return it
19:35 katsmeow-afk no, that's with the ground *intact*
19:35 antman8969 ooh
19:35 katsmeow-afk injecting gnd current is a bad idea
19:36 katsmeow-afk the new adaptor is making a ground loop
19:36 katsmeow-afk the oem old one doesn't
19:36 antman8969 so then would using a 2-3 prong converter be a viable work around? Or shoudl I just return it and hope for a better one next time
19:37 katsmeow-afk tehre is a current flowing from the new adaptor into house ground, then up the ground tot he monitor thru the video port, and back to the new adaptor,, you really want ac current thru your video ports?
19:37 katsmeow-afk i get the feeling you got it off ebay
19:37 katsmeow-afk else, you'd have left and returned it by now
19:37 antman8969 pretty much
19:38 antman8969 amazon
19:38 katsmeow-afk ouch
19:38 antman8969 but yea
19:38 antman8969 its just a hassle
19:38 antman8969 I wish there was a reliable site I could buy it from, ac adapters are such a hassle
19:38 katsmeow-afk use the gnd adaptor on the new laptop pwr adaptor
19:38 katsmeow-afk keep ground on the monitor as designed
19:39 antman8969 right
19:39 antman8969 would you trust the adapter though? Even with the ground removed
19:39 katsmeow-afk altho, heh, we have not tested the monitor to verify it's gnd is correct, have we?
19:39 antman8969 lol Well the old adapter works with the monitor just fine
19:39 antman8969 so I assumed it was alright
19:39 antman8969 and other laptops after been plugged into the monitor without a problem
19:40 antman8969 using their own power soruces
19:40 antman8969 adapters
19:40 katsmeow-afk no, i do not trust that adaptor with any 120vac-pwered external equipment plugged into it
19:40 antman8969 lol
19:40 katsmeow-afk i also use an external monitor and external usb hub, no problems
19:41 antman8969 is there a list of commonly trusted manufacturers somewhere that I could reference?
19:41 antman8969 it would be nice to know in advance
19:41 antman8969 I never would have known if I didn't happen to have a second monitor either
19:41 katsmeow-afk i don't know
19:43 antman8969 well, that was all very helpful, thanks a lot katsmeow
19:43 antman8969 hopefully the next one is better
19:43 katsmeow-afk good lucks
19:53 Tom_itx antman8969 you are not a DJ are you? we had one here that was 'antman'
19:53 Tom_itx but he left town i think
19:54 antman8969 nah, just a CS student. I searched the channel listing for one that I thought could help and stumbled across this one. Figured I would hang around and see what its like.
19:54 katsmeow-afk sometimes quiet
19:54 antman8969 lol like most channels
19:56 ace4016 antman8969, common trusted vendors are more important and usually lead to trusted manufacturers
19:56 ace4016 also, experience :P
19:57 ace4016 because a manufacturer is pointless if you can't get their product :D
19:58 antman8969 lol true. Well, I trusted amazon and I got this crappy adapter! I do realize that a small percent of goods made by any company will be defective, and I may just be unlucky
19:58 antman8969 still an inconvenience though
19:59 Tom_itx amazon is a silly broker
19:59 Tom_itx they will sell you anything you want
20:00 antman8969 If I could buy the adapter straight from acer I would, but these things are hard to find in my experience
20:00 antman8969 Acer won't sell one directly, department stores charge upwards of $80
20:01 antman8969 I'm left with random online merchants
20:05 tsmeow-afk decided to use a 3/8 grade8 bolt as a knob shaft, and see if that gets
20:09 Tom_itx of possible interest to kat: http://ludens.cl/paradise/turbine/turbine.html
20:52 katsmeow-afk omd, me made a plywood penstock http://ludens.cl/paradise/turbine/6outletmold.jpg , buried it in the ground http://ludens.cl/paradise/turbine/6concrete.jpg , and then poured a concrete slab on top of it http://ludens.cl/paradise/turbine/6slabready.jpg
20:52 katsmeow-afk that plywood willw ash out under a year, then take the concrete slab down the side of the mountain
20:53 katsmeow-afk he also dead-headed the pipe into a box, and not into a venturi header around the turbine!
20:56 Tom_itx the installation is in Chile
20:56 Tom_itx but i thought you might enjoy some of it
20:56 katsmeow-afk it's a dawg-awefull amount of work, but not too far from an ideal plan i had for my creek here
20:57 katsmeow-afk i was going to use 4" pipe, since even in wet weather it ormally flows not enough to fill a 10" pipe with 30ft of drop
20:58 katsmeow-afk i think of Chile as a extremely impoverished place, i wonder how he got all this there
20:58 Tom_itx i dunno
20:59 Tom_itx apparently his neighbor hand dug most of it
20:59 katsmeow-afk for free? because he was bored?
20:59 Tom_itx no idea
20:59 katsmeow-afk he doesn't look like he needs exercise
21:00 Tom_itx no
21:06 zhanx evening
21:07 Tom_itx linuxcnc on a live cd install installs as follows:
21:07 Tom_itx 1. atom with 4G ram hooked to the interweb will not install linuxcnc however installs ubuntu fine
21:07 zhanx finished fixing my "gigs" from the inspection today, think i might be getting promoted due it
21:07 katsmeow-afk how many miles is 1200 meters?
21:08 Tom_itx 2. remove a stick of ram, 2G ram hooked to the interweb installs linuxcnc fine
21:08 zhanx almost 1
21:08 katsmeow-afk damn, this guy has money
21:08 zhanx 400 meters short of a mile
21:08 Tom_itx 3. leave the 4G ram installed but unplug the interweb linuxcnc installs fine
21:08 Tom_itx wtf is up with that install?
21:09 zhanx weird really tom
21:09 zhanx driver issues
21:09 Tom_itx it was an issue with the 2.5 live cd
21:09 Tom_itx no
21:09 zhanx haven't used the 2.5 yet
21:10 Tom_itx i am
21:10 Tom_itx but i was testing that install for someone last night
21:10 zhanx my cnc is a mess right now of labels, ready to solder back up tomorrow
21:10 Tom_itx soon as my electronics box gets here i'll start my rewire
21:11 Tom_itx http://www.ebay.com/itm/RITTAL-AE-1380-Painted-Steel-Enclosure-15-x-15-x-9-/180899383510?_trksid=m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D9024009551874549694&_qi=RTM1084479
21:11 zhanx now that i pulled passing the department of the army inspection of my a$$
21:11 Tom_itx to hold my xfmr drives and mesa cards
21:11 zhanx on weechat right now that link is too long
21:12 zhanx cable is STILL out
21:12 zhanx wtf on that, they will be out tomorrow to look at it
21:14 Tom_itx http://tinyurl.com/ckxkamq
21:15 zhanx thanks
21:15 zhanx looking
21:16 zhanx slow, my wireless is internet, but slow
21:16 Tom_itx it's a box
21:16 Tom_itx that's it
21:16 katsmeow-afk ya know, if he wanted 2kv, mots would have worked
21:18 zhanx -looks like a key box
21:20 Tom_itx industrial enclosure
21:20 Tom_itx digikey sells em for about $250 or so
21:21 zhanx k
21:21 katsmeow-afk ouch
21:21 zhanx I got something cool to mount my cnc in
21:21 zhanx an intercom system from 1939
21:22 zhanx real wood
21:23 Tom_itx err no it was a hammond one they had
21:23 Tom_itx but similar
21:40 Tom_itx http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?x=14&y=18&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=EN4SD20208GY
22:04 katsmeow-afk i forgot about dinner, or shoveling more dirt, thanks a lot, Tom
22:07 Tom_itx :/
22:07 katsmeow-afk the Chile pages are interesting
22:07 katsmeow-afk now i want chile for dinner :-/
22:08 Tom_itx lots of manual labor
22:08 katsmeow-afk praps pasta with meat-food in it
22:08 katsmeow-afk it is a lot of labor, i can confirm that
22:08 katsmeow-afk my house is bigger, and poured concrete, and i did all the pouring
22:09 katsmeow-afk know what's funny, his 20amp psu is using the same sorta circuit i am, but i am adding pull *down* voltage limiters as well
22:11 katsmeow-afk i am using TIP35 and TIP36 because they aren't TO-3 cans like the 2N3055
22:12 katsmeow-afk i am also using a resistor tween the outputs and their TIP122 driver, because that will dissipate power the darlington won't need to
22:13 katsmeow-afk ~24watts worse case, but i am using 10watt resistors because of cost , i have the heatsinks
22:13 Tom_itx i like the bleed resistor on my psu
22:13 katsmeow-afk i'm happy for you ;-)
22:19 katsmeow-afk ah, i see what else he did, i am using a pnp where he is using a npn, so he added a resistor after someone noticed Q2 can be burned up from excessive dissipation
22:20 katsmeow-afk i put a pnp up there, and so my collector resistor is tween it and the pass transistors
22:20 katsmeow-afk i have anotehr layer of to-92 transistors also, because pushing the 741 to make 20ma of drive worst case isn't a great idea
22:21 katsmeow-afk using the TO-92 case to make 20ma at 6v is only 0.12 watts, and saves potential headaches
22:22 rrywolf curls up on katsmeow-afk's
22:22 tsmeow-afk pets absentmind
22:22 furrywolf mrrf :)
22:23 katsmeow-afk i see no reason for a 40amp 12v supply for a ham shack, just use a battery and consider it real useful in power outages
22:24 furrywolf what if your equipment draws 40A, and you plan to use it for a while? you still need a >20A battery charger.
22:25 katsmeow-afk what ham radio pulls 40amps "for a while" ?
22:25 furrywolf someone playing with packet radio and a big amp? someone who can't shut up?
22:25 Tom_itx i doubt any but down there i also doubt they have any restrictions on such
22:25 katsmeow-afk then use a 120v rig , not a 12v one!
22:26 katsmeow-afk or in his case, a 240v rig
22:26 furrywolf I had a 12V 75A supply in the garage at my last place...
22:26 katsmeow-afk the whole point of 12v is so it can be portable, you don't power a 500w amplifier in a permanent installation off 12v
22:27 furrywolf used it to run a cb radio and to test car amps (aka a good excuse to have music in the garage).
22:27 furrywolf heh
22:27 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/12v_supply2.jpg
22:28 furrywolf I might build a microhydro installation for a friend this summer... but a lot smaller than that one.
22:28 katsmeow-afk whassat, Tom ?
22:28 Tom_itx 45A supply
22:29 katsmeow-afk why?
22:29 Tom_itx cause it was there
22:29 Tom_itx and free
22:29 katsmeow-afk oh
22:29 furrywolf we're using 4" flexible drainage pipe for the first 50 vertical feet or so (which ends up being close to a thousand linear feet), fed into 3" PVC for the next hundred vertical feet (which is a few hundred linear feet).
22:29 furrywolf the water source is a ways away from the hill, so there's a lot of horizontal movement before it drops much.
22:30 furrywolf probably use a 1hp induction motor for the generator, let it spin up on ac power then turn the water on.
22:30 katsmeow-afk that's a lot of run for 4" pipe, i was going to need only 400ft max
22:31 furrywolf that's why we're using the cheap flexible stuff. :)
22:31 katsmeow-afk yu have a lot of vertical drop there too
22:31 furrywolf based on our tests, it can take ~50ft before it explodes.
22:31 furrywolf it also expands about 10% lengthwise near that pressure limit.
22:31 katsmeow-afk you see the hydro instal Tom pointed to?
22:32 furrywolf well, we never exploded it, but we couldn't make fittings that would attach to it...
22:32 furrywolf I might need to build a bigger lathe and turn my own fittings.
22:33 furrywolf since it's drainage pipe, it was never intended for pressure.
22:33 furrywolf yes, that's why I brought up the hydro system we were working on. :)
22:33 katsmeow-afk mine wold be done by now if not for the neighbor's gods
22:33 furrywolf the water source doesn't have much flow, and is seasonal, but it should fill a 2" pipe at pretty good flow 7ish months of the year.
22:33 Tom_itx maybe they would help you dig
22:33 furrywolf I don't remember my exact math, but I think I worked out we had a little over 1hp of available water for most of the year.
22:34 katsmeow-afk it pisses me off doubly that my current water intake is where it is, because the house water system is laid out for it to have been at the powerhouse, the other side of the property
22:35 katsmeow-afk also, i don't use all that much power, and the powerco has installed electronic meters now, so i cannot run it backwards, so a large nstall now would be wasted money
22:36 furrywolf our current plan is to chop apart a torque converter and see how good of a water turbine we can make out of one.
22:36 furrywolf if that fails, weld pipe halves around a disc in pairs and call it a pelton wheel.
22:36 tsmeow-afk
22:37 katsmeow-afk spoon shapes will give you more efficency than a mere half-pipe
22:37 katsmeow-afk praps yo can cast them
22:37 Tom_itx wonder where dude got his spoons
22:38 furrywolf my plan is pairs of pipe halves, with the water aimed at the ridge in the center. like uu with the water aimed down at the top middle.
22:38 furrywolf but that's plan B. plan A is to aim water at the various parts of a torque converter and see what happens. :)
22:39 furrywolf they already have nice blade shapes and strong splined shaft fittings...
22:39 katsmeow-afk Tom, he bought them at http://www.h-hydro.com/
22:39 furrywolf my hope is the nice w-shape redirects the water back towards the source, getting lots of energy out of it, with minimal investment.
22:39 furrywolf the budget of this project is about $100.
22:41 furrywolf the friction in the 4" flexible drainage pipe will be horrible, but it's twice the diameter of the pipe that'll be feeding the turbine, so we're hoping the low velocity makes it acceptable.
22:41 furrywolf it's the bendy corrugated stuff.
22:42 furrywolf he got 1000ft of it from someone for close to free.
22:43 katsmeow-afk it's gonn ahave bad friction losses, you're right, specially at only 4inch
22:43 katsmeow-afk http://h-hydro.com/Aspen_Hollow_Hydro.html
22:45 furrywolf the worst losses will be because it's corrugated, not smooth...
22:45 katsmeow-afk i agree
22:45 furrywolf but we're only talking 15gpm or something like that
22:45 furrywolf I don't remember the exact numbers - we planned this about three years ago, and that's well past what my brain can keep track of.
22:46 furrywolf I think we have more head at the end than I said above.
22:47 furrywolf You have: 20gpm * 250ft * waterdensity * gravity
22:47 furrywolf You want: watts
22:47 furrywolf * 942.9041
22:47 furrywolf as you can see, not a big system. :)
22:47 katsmeow-afk yo may need to use a larger numbe of jets, with a valve system to turn them on/off
22:47 katsmeow-afk the torque convertor blades are pretty small, you'll wanna hit them all
22:49 furrywolf our prototype used a box-shape of pipe with four jets, but we popped one of the 4" fittings before we were done playing with nozzle sizes, and gave up for a while. for that test, we were using the 4" stuff for the steep drop, and it couldn't even pretend to take the pressure.
22:49 furrywolf it expands to about twice its length, then blows out the fittings. :)
22:49 katsmeow-afk so you actually have this system full of water and making power now?
22:49 furrywolf no
22:50 katsmeow-afk use real pressure pipe!
22:50 furrywolf we ran some underrated pipe to a point only about 75ft up the hill, and jury rigged a prototype.
22:50 katsmeow-afk i think 4" real pipe is good for 220psi, which is 400ft of head
22:50 furrywolf the real water source is a quarter mile away, and needs engineering.
22:51 furrywolf if you can get us a quarter mile of real 4" pipe within our $100 budget, please do so. :)
22:51 katsmeow-afk can't
22:51 furrywolf we figure if it makes 400W 24/7 for half the year, it's a decent amount of electricity, even if the peak power is pretty low.
22:52 katsmeow-afk if you can use it, and store as needed, it's a lot of power
22:52 furrywolf he can't use nor store it, but it'll be grid tie.
22:52 katsmeow-afk 288kwh / mo isn't to be laughed at
22:52 furrywolf no, the power company doesn't let you connect hydro. our plan is to not tell them. :)
22:53 katsmeow-afk ah
22:53 katsmeow-afk hence the induction motor?
22:53 furrywolf they don't like alternative energy. the state forced them to let people have solar systems, but didn't make them allow hydro...
22:53 furrywolf yep
22:53 furrywolf it won't keep generating if the grid fails.
22:53 katsmeow-afk as in, no need to speed regulate it for frequency
22:53 furrywolf and it'll Just Work.
22:53 katsmeow-afk right
22:54 katsmeow-afk course, if the water goes off, you have an expensive fan in a box
22:54 furrywolf I'll probably rig up some simple controls to kill the mains connection if it goes under 3600rpm or over 4000rpm.
22:54 furrywolf yep, to keep it from becoming a power-hungry fan in a box. :)
22:54 furrywolf and to keep it from trying to generate if the mains connection fails
22:55 furrywolf just a simple tachometer circuit and a contactor that has to be held on continually. if it goes out of range, or anything fails, the contactor opens, and it just sits there spinning and wasting water. I don't think it'll be capable of overrevving the motor to destruction.
22:56 katsmeow-afk if it is connected to mains, thru a breaker or fuse, then if it over revs it will pop the breaker and won't hurt anything
22:56 katsmeow-afk it cannot get under 3450 if the fues are good, becaiuse the line power will motor it up
22:56 furrywolf if the mains becomes disconnected, the turbine will become unloaded, and greatly increase in speed.
22:57 furrywolf there's a risk this speed increase will grenade the motor, but induction motors are pretty solid, so I'm figuring it won't.
22:58 furrywolf I'll set it to trip at 3600, not 3450... if it ever drops below synchronous, it's acting as a motor, not a generator, and consuming power.
22:58 katsmeow-afk well, just watch the line out on the motor, if it goes up above whatever line voltage is, then for sure kill the water
22:58 furrywolf I don't plan on killing the water. too much work. would need a big motorized ball valve.
22:58 furrywolf I plan on hoping the motor doesn't grenade. :)
22:59 katsmeow-afk no, set it low, becaise if the tailings stop up, you'll have a turbine box full of water holding the motor speed down
22:59 tsmeow-afk th
22:59 furrywolf but then it'll be USING POWER. this is a condition that should make it stop. :)
23:00 furrywolf if it ever falls below synchronous, it's using power to move water/air, not making power. there's no reason to try running it in this condition - either it requires maintenance, or requires restarting after stream flow increases.
23:00 katsmeow-afk wierd the sorta problems some oones run up against
23:01 furrywolf the only time it'll fall below 3600rpm is a failure or a water supply shortage, and killing it and waiting for someone to look at it is the best option.
23:01 furrywolf clogged intake, broken pipe, low stream level, etc.
23:01 tsmeow-afk
23:02 furrywolf 3601rpm is making power. 3599rpm is using power. :)
23:02 katsmeow-afk sand abrading the turbine away
23:03 furrywolf not much sand in the water here. it's all through clay, so is full of intake-basin-clogging fine silt.
23:03 furrywolf no sand in the clay
23:04 tsmeow-afk
23:05 furrywolf one advantage of using torque converter parts, with no modification other than cutting the housing open... if it does erode, crack, whatever, it costs ~$3 for a new one. :)
23:06 furrywolf if the torque converter idea works, I'll cut the input shaft off a matching transmission and couple that to the motor, so the turbine just slides on.
23:06 katsmeow-afk how will you make a shaft coupler to hang the turbine on?
23:06 katsmeow-afk it will fit slopy tho
23:07 furrywolf dunno. should be easy enough to clamp it or something.
23:07 furrywolf there's not too much play
23:07 katsmeow-afk how to cut open a torque convertor: thin cuttng blade in body grinder, cut anywhere around the rim EXCEPT where the two halves are overlapped and welded!
23:08 katsmeow-afk there is in the inside parts of the convertors, more than i thought there was
23:08 furrywolf yeah, there's one-way clutches and crap.
23:09 furrywolf we plan on experimenting to see which bits make a decent turbine... we might even end up using the outer housing.
23:09 furrywolf or if no bits make good turbines, just making one out of pipe and a disc.
23:09 tsmeow-afk
23:10 furrywolf we only have chevy and ford parts in the junk pile, so we have two options. :)
23:11 tsmeow-afk
23:12 furrywolf my prototype was made from a sheet of aluminum, cut into a 16-sided disc, with 32 inwards cuts, twisted to 90 degrees with pliers. it worked well enough to run a tail light bulb when bolted to a car alternator. :)
23:13 furrywolf could probably have gotten a lot more power out of it playing with nozzles, but the 4" fittings kept failing, it was dark,..
23:13 katsmeow-afk in that case, just use the radiator fan
23:14 furrywolf I was using what we had handy. heh.
23:14 furrywolf took all of ten minutes to make the turbine... I had my carbide metal saw with me.
23:15 tsmeow-afk
23:15 furrywolf then just removed the nut on the alternator, hammered off the pulley, left the fan on, put the turbine on, put the pulley back on, put the nut back in, and cranked it down tight.
23:17 katsmeow-afk alterators aren't all that efficient, i'd guss under 50%
23:17 furrywolf they're pretty bad. it was what we had handy. :)
23:17 furrywolf out of a ford truck
23:18 furrywolf "The line consists of two 16mm conduits, each carrying a single 1.5mm2 wire, of the common household type that has a PVC insulation rated for 600V. I will run this line at 2kV"... lol
23:20 furrywolf "The solution to this problem was silicone caulk. I again disassembled everything, cleaned the black useless sealant away, discarded the rubber rings, and reassembled everything using silicone caulk. Now everything is watertight, at the full working pressure!"
23:21 furrywolf heh, we used wet patch roof cement to make all our stuff seal...
23:21 furrywolf it's removable. :)
23:21 katsmeow-afk i use 2-part epoxy on all water joints that i cannot solvent-weld ,, or arc weld
23:22 furrywolf wet patch comes in gallon pails for $9.99, and works surprisingly well...
23:23 katsmeow-afk it's priceier than that now
23:23 katsmeow-afk last wet patch i bought was like $70 for a 4 gallon bucket (not sold in 5 gallons any more)
23:24 katsmeow-afk i have 100 gallons or so on the flat part of the roof
23:24 furrywolf odd, I last bought a pail about a year and a half ago, and it was $9.99...
23:25 furrywolf your standard gallon paint can
23:25 katsmeow-afk ok
23:25 katsmeow-afk i need dinner, uless omeone else is delivering it to me, i need to go make it
23:25 katsmeow-afk no one?
23:25 katsmeow-afk ok, bbiaf
23:26 rrywolf follows kats for wolfy
23:37 ferdna "asshole from Freenode" I just approved your comment. thank you =)
23:43 katsmeow-afk bak
23:43 katsmeow-afk what is ferdna talking about?
23:43 ferdna katsmeow-afk, http://blog.eonsoft.us/?p=427#comments
23:44 ferdna found him
23:44 ferdna his nickname is peppermint
23:44 katsmeow-afk there is no peppermint in here
23:45 ferdna yeah i know
23:45 ferdna i didnt know what channel he was...
23:45 ferdna but i found him...
23:46 katsmeow-afk it's so wierd how some humans can get a mental link from code they do not like to a "bucketfull of" their own appendage, as if they have some ,, o, nevermind
23:46 ferdna lol
23:47 ferdna katsmeow-afk, i found code from a php code for a xor checksum function and i decided to re-code it in C++...
23:47 katsmeow-afk ok
23:55 furrywolf meh, I need to find some things to toss on craigslist for cash.
23:55 furrywolf having $49 left doesn't work.
23:57 katsmeow-afk nukebox beeped!