#robotics Logs
May 18 2012
#robotics Calendar
00:01 rrywolf curls up on kat for bed
00:13 rrywolf sighs and goes off to bed with no
00:14 tsmeow-afk was thin
00:14 katsmeow-afk that's kinda like being afk
00:15 tsmeow-afk tosses furry a ki
01:10 rue_bed furrywolf, give up on the wireless already, run a wire!
01:11 rue_bed afk, Affinity For Knowledge
01:13 rue_bed wonder why that doubledips
03:51 katsmeow-afk http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/facebook-founder-eduardo-saverin-banned-returning-us-senate/print?id=16368965
04:52 SolarNRG waaaa hoooo
04:54 katsmeow-afk http://www.ebay.com/itm/221005132352
04:54 SolarNRG a missile silo?
04:55 SolarNRG With no missiles?
04:55 SolarNRG But with radioactive residue?
04:55 katsmeow-afk no residue either
04:55 SolarNRG Probably still some nasty ICBM propellant residue in teh air
04:55 katsmeow-afk owner movng to Ecuador, cannot take it with him
04:57 SolarNRG Ecuador?
04:57 SolarNRG Why there?
04:57 katsmeow-afk i didn't ask him
04:59 SolarNRG so you'll be nook proof
04:59 SolarNRG shame the fallout air filters won't work
04:59 SolarNRG so you won't be fallout proof
05:00 katsmeow-afk i didn't say i was buying it either, the reserve (don't tell anyone) is $450k
05:02 SolarNRG :o
05:03 SolarNRG Who has that kinda money?
05:04 katsmeow-afk not me
05:04 Skwint it's not a bad price really, for that much land and a big bunker
05:06 SolarNRG Suppose its the right sort of place to build a moon rocket
05:08 katsmeow-afk qty 400 2N3904 npn to-92 $8 + $5s&h http://www.ebay.com/itm/320690068352
05:10 katsmeow-afk lat nite i grabbed up 50PCS 100uF 16V Electrolytic Capacitor ; 11 cents , free s&h
05:11 katsmeow-afk saw someone get 100 .1u disc caps, 12 cents, free s&h
05:23 SolarNRG Have you ever made a windscreen wiper controller?
05:25 katsmeow-afk just a foot button, the wiper motor operated a brake cable conected to wire cutters, to cut loops for making chainmaille with
05:30 SolarNRG So it opened and closed one loop
05:31 SolarNRG Cut open
05:31 SolarNRG Nice
05:32 katsmeow-afk umm, i made coils of wire, then cut a loop off at a tme, or 2 or 3 loops at a time
05:32 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/chainmaille.html
05:33 SolarNRG For reinactment?
05:33 SolarNRG Like medievil armour
05:33 SolarNRG I done that before
05:33 SolarNRG I used a drill
05:33 SolarNRG And some wire cutters
05:34 katsmeow-afk yeas
05:34 SolarNRG And it hurt my hand after about the hundredth cut
05:35 katsmeow-afk which is why i made powered cutters
05:36 SolarNRG Smart
05:37 katsmeow-afk yeas, but i should never have told anyone irl i made the stuff
05:38 katsmeow-afk i regretted telling anyone, i got rid of the stuff i had, and have not made any in 15 yrs
05:38 katsmeow-afk prolly will never make any aain
05:41 Skwint you don't need to get rid of things, you just need to say you got rid of them
05:41 Skwint or alternatively ignore people
05:42 wint neither has nor wants chainmail, but has no issue with you if yo
05:45 katsmeow-afk it was one of those things i'd never buy, but i didn't mind making it, or selling it
05:46 katsmeow-afk guy said i was nuts till i pointed out i sold $30 worth of fence wire to people who didn't want fence wire, by cutting it into little pieces - rings and charging them $200 for it
05:46 katsmeow-afk and they liked it and it looked good
05:48 katsmeow-afk i had a long shirt, long sleeves, 3/8 rings of moderately heavy wire, i ground the burrs off each link, soldered each link closed, then ground over them again to remove any pointy solder
05:49 katsmeow-afk i got so much crap for that, i sold it to a scrap dealer for $1 something, he tossed it out in the mud with the rest of the scrap
05:50 katsmeow-afk i still hate the humans involved in that
05:52 katsmeow-afk i do not know what good came out of making me feel that way
05:55 SolarNRG Should have fleabay's it
05:57 katsmeow-afk tis was ~1995
05:57 katsmeow-afk i could not get internet out here
05:58 SolarNRG Woah 95? We still had bulletin boards back then
05:58 SolarNRG I was still playing DOS games!
05:58 SolarNRG Like Doom
05:58 SolarNRG Zone66
05:58 SolarNRG Raptor
05:58 SolarNRG Dr Mangles lab
05:58 SolarNRG Commander keen
05:58 SolarNRG Duke nukem 2
05:59 SolarNRG Leisure Suit Larry
05:59 SolarNRG Sim City 2000
05:59 SolarNRG Transport Tycoon
05:59 SolarNRG Monkey Island 2 Lechucks revenge
06:00 SolarNRG Freds' back yard
06:00 katsmeow-afk i didn't play any games
06:00 SolarNRG :o
06:00 SolarNRG :*((
06:01 katsmeow-afk don't be upset, i enjoyed myself by writing 6502 machine code
07:25 Steffanx No prince of persia for katsmeow-afk ?
07:25 Steffanx ?!
07:27 Steffanx Too bad if you don't … the original source of it for 6502 is online :)
10:23 furrywolf maille sells were at renfaires, etc... I went to one with someone a couple years ago, had a big display of maille bikinis with ridiculous price tags. I couldn't decide if they sold more of them to women, or to men hoping to get their women to wear them. :)
10:24 furrywolf s/were/well
10:25 furrywolf also, I love mppt. PV: 33.0V, 8A. Batt: 24.0V, 11A.
10:26 furrywolf bbl, off to sand the top of my new workbench.
10:26 furrywolf good 8am project for pissing off the neighbor. :)
10:31 theBear oooh furry, it was you that told me all about briggs and strat. 4 strokes wasn't it ? damn you're good... 3/4 or more of a tank and the on-top carb sucks it up every time, back to 5 gentle pulls after 2 weeks sitting, or topped up 2 pulls after a few days... very nice
10:33 furrywolf glad to help. :)
10:34 furrywolf pulsajets really hate low tank levels. horrible design.
10:36 theBear yeah, once you told me and i looked at the thing and scratched my head, it's so obvious, and that's why it literally needed the smell of an oily rag in the airfilter to start it, you just can't hand-pull it fast enough to suck that first bit of fuel in
10:38 furrywolf a normal carb uses a tank above the carb, with gravity feeding the fuel into a float bowl, with a float valve to control the level. a pulsajet instead uses a venturi vacuum powered fuel pump to lift fuel from the bottom of the tank into a small cup at the top of the tank, which overflows back into the tank, achieving the same effect of a constant fuel height as the float bowl in a regular carb does.
10:39 furrywolf except these little cups always rust out and leak, or just evaporate, or empty if you run it out of fuel, and then you have to turn the engine by hand fast enough and enough times to get the fuel pump to refill it before it'll run.
10:40 furrywolf not to mention the diaphragm and little check valves in the pump always stiffen and curl, causing it to not pump fuel at all.
10:40 furrywolf like a 2-stroke.
10:41 furrywolf I'd say more than half the pulsajets still in existence only run on the top 1/4 of the tank. :)
10:42 furrywolf if the cup rusts out badly, or the fuel pump dies, they'll only run while the tank level is over the second intake to the carb.
10:43 furrywolf damnit, getting cloudy, charge dropping.
11:31 DanFrederiksen servo
11:34 Steffanx Coreless motor
11:47 Tom_itx pancakes
11:49 furrywolf french toast
12:08 Steffanx pan flute
12:34 katsmeow-afk hobby : stumping google : and i think i just set a record for longest time : 87,700 results (0.25 seconds) for clavicytherium
12:34 DanFrederiksen :)
12:34 Steffanx 0.24 here, with even less results
12:34 Steffanx 25k
12:34 DanFrederiksen free association
12:35 Steffanx *22k
12:35 katsmeow-afk for comparison, chinoiserie returns 2,370,000 in 0.16 secs
12:36 katsmeow-afk 0.25 sec for an indexed search result in such a massive cluster as google is impressively slow!
12:36 Steffanx I wonder if someone cares about the 0.25 seconds
12:37 katsmeow-afk i don't remember what spec was, but sub-sec timing actually means a lot
12:38 DanFrederiksen "katsmeow" 0.28 seconds
12:38 katsmeow-afk archicembalo = 19,800 results, and 0.15 sec
12:38 DanFrederiksen someone please tell her
12:38 katsmeow-afk i think 0.25 sec is a record for a modern search
12:38 DanFrederiksen she has me on ignore
12:39 Steffanx She has you one ignore for a reason..
12:39 DanFrederiksen but it's a bad reason
12:39 DanFrederiksen and she'd be interested to hear it
12:39 katsmeow-afk even tryangle is 0.19 sec
12:40 Steffanx katsmeow seems to be 0.28 seconds according to someone in here
12:40 katsmeow-afk hmm?
12:41 katsmeow-afk google timing isn't based on lag to to user, the html page is built by google and the timing is hardcoded into the page, it's lag inside google
12:41 DanFrederiksen Steffanx, thanks but try again with ""
12:42 Steffanx No Mr DanFrederiksen
12:43 katsmeow-afk phrases take longer, of course: __ "come to my door baby" lyrics ___ is 0.24 sec also
12:43 katsmeow-afk still not 0.25 sec
12:44 DanFrederiksen Steffanx, she didn't understand what you meant. she thought you just addressed her
12:44 Steffanx That's her problem
12:44 DanFrederiksen hehe come on dude. it'll make her happy to feel special for a moment :)
12:46 DanFrederiksen if you're afraid to look like my bitch you can tell her in PM. noone has to know :)
12:48 Steffanx Nah, I guess it was a stupid choice to do what you asked in the first place DanFrederiksen :P
12:48 DanFrederiksen no it was good. but you were too weak to keep doing it
12:54 katsmeow-afk hmm, i need a way to throttle internet bandwidth on the other computers, i should write that code when i find that Round Tuit i misplaced
13:00 m_itx gives katsmeow-afk a rount
13:01 tsmeow-afk uses it like an indoor-safe fr
13:14 katsmeow-afk this whole facebook ipo thing smells bad to me, "selling stocks" is offering a portion of the company in exchange for cash, the company is essentially borrowing it's entire guesstimated valuation
13:15 katsmeow-afk it has taken on a huge amount of debt in payments on the stocks, which altho not required (by the nature of stocks vs a bank loan), reflect on the company's financial condition
13:18 Steffanx Yeah, I wonder when it exploded ..
13:18 Steffanx s
13:18 katsmeow-afk or they could pull an Apple, put all the ipo cash in the bank somewhere, make $millions per day in interest off it, and pay no dividends on the stocks
13:20 katsmeow-afk for a $billion, at 1%, that's $10million per yr
13:21 katsmeow-afk it's sorta peanut$, but it would keep them knee-deep in superputers as needed
13:34 DanFrederiksen katsmeow-afk, ipo is normal. but yes the values for ipos are often deeply fictitious
13:35 DanFrederiksen Tesla motors is valued over 3bn$ yet in its few year it has produced a net loss of around a 1 bn$ and might well go bankrupt soon
13:35 DanFrederiksen years*
13:39 katsmeow-afk "hej gamle man" is 0.27 sec, but it's a phrase
13:43 Steffann katsmeow-afk found a new hobby?
13:43 katsmeow-afk it's only part time, i have tons of hobbies like that
13:44 katsmeow-afk it's why i am often afk, got things to do
13:44 Steffann "1% of 2^32 of %1 * speed of light" 0.55 seconds :P
13:44 Steffann Not that it makes any sense, but .. :P
13:45 katsmeow-afk heh
13:45 katsmeow-afk and, it's a phrase too
13:46 DanFrederiksen Steffann, now's your chance to do the right thing. tell her
13:47 Steffann No mr Frederiksen
13:59 RestlessThing Robots aren't that great... they cant' even see intentionality in the Heider & Simmel displays--even *infants* can do that!
14:00 katsmeow-afk why doesn't "the statue of liberty" have a name, praps Marianne ? or is "the statue of liberty" the same personification of "blind justice holding scales lady" aka Columbia (the goddess) (as in "district of Columbia")?
14:03 katsmeow-afk RestlessThing, so might people with autism, some things are just not automatically logical deductions of other thigns
14:03 katsmeow-afk and visually seeing things has always been difficult for Ai
14:04 katsmeow-afk anthropormorphising events, or raising them to diety levels when not understood, isn't going to be natural for beings not saddled with the same problems as humans
14:04 RestlessThing :) I know... I find it charming that something like that is so simple yet computationally so complex
14:06 tsmeow-afk blames it on Amy G
14:06 RestlessThing sorry, something that *seems* so simple... obviously it's not that simple
14:09 katsmeow-afk it isn't, you first need an overarching similarity to a common series of events, then a desire to engage in transference, it's just not logical
14:10 katsmeow-afk it's a striving to make sence of, to out-guess what may be going on
14:10 katsmeow-afk it's like in "I, Robot" with Will Smith, he says "do you like cats" a,nd what'shernick says "are you saying cats did this to you?!" , it makes zero sense
14:11 katsmeow-afk people do that to me, it's incredible the stuff that comes totally "out of left field" (a saying which also makes no sense to me)
14:12 katsmeow-afk it's the origin of religion
14:12 katsmeow-afk left unrestrained, i consider it a defect
14:12 katsmeow-afk it's what underhanded lawyers play on in court
14:13 RestlessThing a defect, haha... It might be defining of the human mind!
14:13 katsmeow-afk i agree
14:13 RestlessThing Not that it's not "illogical" ...
14:13 katsmeow-afk sad, eh?
14:14 RestlessThing heh... yes, but I suppose that doesn't make any sense or matter.
14:15 RestlessThing are there mathematical solutions to the frame problem?
14:16 katsmeow-afk math solves *everything* according to #ai , "do you like milk?" "let me run the math on that.."
14:17 katsmeow-afk "is milk a noun?" "let me run the math on that"
14:19 katsmeow-afk it boggles my lil head that while "soke" can be a bike tire part or a linguistic process, they'd use math to determine if your tire is speaking to you
14:19 mumptai hi
14:19 tobbor mumptai! like, totally tell us about the project!
14:19 katsmeow-afk wow, long time no talk, mumptai !
14:19 mumptai auto-greeting?
14:19 katsmeow-afk yeas
14:19 tsmeow-afk rephrases: it boggles my lil head that while "spoke" can be a bike tire part or a linguistic process, they'd use math to determine if your tire is talking to
14:20 mumptai let me replay: long time, lots of work, little sparetime
14:21 katsmeow-afk ah, i should be likewise
14:21 RestlessThing Is that what human minds do too? but there's some threshold for "correctness" at which a judgment is returned, whether the math checks out all the way down or not
14:21 mumptai arg, sry about my broken english
14:21 katsmeow-afk mumptai , no problem :-)
14:22 katsmeow-afk but RestlessThing, logic is not math, and in this case the booleans of properties of "spoke" don't overlap, there is no probability!
14:24 katsmeow-afk even if i say "bike spoke", you prolly immeadiately think "bike talking", which with modern electronics is possible, and not "bike tire spoke", a component of the wheel assy
14:24 katsmeow-afk mumptai, you did a root hand, fingers milled from solid aluminum, yes?
14:25 katsmeow-afk err
14:25 katsmeow-afk robot
14:25 katsmeow-afk robot hand
14:25 mumptai ehh, no
14:25 katsmeow-afk someone did somewhere, i forget
14:25 mumptai i have root on a host called hand, though
14:26 katsmeow-afk root , typo for robot, sorry for my broken english ;-)
14:26 mumptai no pun intended
14:26 tsmeow-afk
14:26 katsmeow-afk i need to go do more things irl
14:26 katsmeow-afk bbl
15:30 nFrederiksen whispers ser
15:31 effann pretends he didn't
15:31 Steffann it
15:59 DanFrederiksen not very convincing :)
16:11 DanFrederiksen mmmm, servo motor... http://media.wholesale-electrical-electronics.com/product/imgage/Electrical&Electronics/2010101008/adca236b81f1d0cff7631bac894b2a8f.jpg
16:11 DanFrederiksen yum yum http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-m2/ac-electric-servo-motors-490238.jpg
19:11 rue_mohr I'ma gonna go to bed
21:46 katsmeow-afk i passed out after dinner
21:54 furrywolf first coat of polyurethane on the workbench went on a bit rough... going to need to find some fine sandpaper and smooth it out a bit.
21:55 katsmeow-afk trye just barely floating over it with 220 on a body grinder?
21:55 furrywolf I'd probably use a palm sander. a little more delicate. (the power kind, not a sanding block. it's a workbench, not fine furniture)
21:56 tsmeow-afk
21:56 katsmeow-afk i have a body grinder, don't have a palm sander
21:56 furrywolf although it is coming out surprisingly nice looking.
21:56 rrywolf has many t
21:58 furrywolf I have lots of tools, but no time to use them, no place to put them, and no money to get anything to use them on. (and no girlfriend, for the other couple boxes of tools)
21:59 tsmeow-afk
22:00 furrywolf I have two 300A ac/dc welders I've never even powered up to see if they work...
22:01 furrywolf (due to lack of a 150A 240V circuit to run them on)
22:01 katsmeow-afk then why do you have them?
22:01 katsmeow-afk i run my ac/dc growlbox at 90 - 120amps on a 40amp breaker
22:02 furrywolf want to use them someday...
22:02 katsmeow-afk one in each paw?
22:02 furrywolf http://fw.bushytails.net/newwelder01.jpg
22:03 furrywolf one is on long-term loan to someone else, who plans to use it someday too. heh.
22:04 furrywolf http://fw.bushytails.net/sizecomp01.jpg with random everyday objects, after someone asked how big they were.
22:04 katsmeow-afk mine is a miller too, but with an added breaker installed, new diodes on heatsink, and new fan, and on wheels with cable hangers
22:04 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/arcwelder.html <<== doin' my mods on it
22:05 katsmeow-afk could do without one of those tools on it
22:05 katsmeow-afk and i don't mean the can os soup
22:06 furrywolf lol
22:06 furrywolf not a good size reference?
22:06 katsmeow-afk too variable
22:07 furrywolf heh
22:08 furrywolf I replaced the diodes in my battery charger last year... http://fw.bushytails.net/charger2.jpg is the charger. don't think I have any pics of the diodes.
22:08 furrywolf used 150A diodes in a full-bridge, so 300A rating.
22:09 katsmeow-afk that's an oldie
22:09 furrywolf the original selenium stacks went out, and the previous owner replaced them with 30A diodes on a small heatsink. which worked for over a decade, but I was trying to charge a battery that ended up having several shorted cells, and blew out the diodes. now it has diodes five times larger, on a heatsink about ten times larger. :)
22:10 furrywolf oldie but a goodie... the transformer uses two parallel strips of copper about 3/4" wide and 1/16" thick. :)
22:10 katsmeow-afk i have a tall one like that, fan bearings are all wallowed out, transformer is a bit small, diodes are something someone haywired together,, basically, mine needs an overhaul too
22:10 furrywolf the transformer in it is solider than any buzzbox welder.
22:10 furrywolf solider
22:11 rrywolf thinks that's a
22:11 katsmeow-afk i have a short one, much heavier, someone scrapped, i have not ever plugged in it
22:11 furrywolf it's tall, but packed solid. there's no free space in it.
22:11 katsmeow-afk hard to make a solid transformer that had moving iron core
22:12 furrywolf heh. this one uses five primary taps, plus a separate reactance that can be switched into series with it, for ten settings.
22:13 furrywolf it's military, originally 6v.
22:13 furrywolf original rating was 60A at 6V. re-wired for 12V, and it still puts out 60A without even getting warm.
22:13 katsmeow-afk i have considered trying to make an arc welder with a transformer 1/2 the size, like 5kw, and igbt control the primary of it
22:14 furrywolf it's built like a tank... It's got to be at least 50 years old, and I see no reason it won't last another 50.
22:16 furrywolf if I get bored, I might add regulation to it. it's unregulated, which means if you set the timer for too long, it'll make batteries very, very hot.
22:16 katsmeow-afk if i build it with a 40amp 120v primary, but apply 240 to the igbt bridge, making it limit pulses based on what i want on the secondary, it should work fine, except for the high energy pulses shot back into the 240 line
22:17 katsmeow-afk yeas, i have had it with unreg'd chargers, i believe they have cost me battery lifetime
22:18 furrywolf heh, especially since full power is ~200A into flat batteries. (it'll crank over a diesel truck all on its own, without getting warm, limited only by when the 20A mains breaker trips...)
22:18 furrywolf it really does have a transformer twice the size of my mig welder. heh.
22:18 katsmeow-afk kool
22:19 furrywolf and it makes the world's most satisfying KATHOOMP when you switch power settings. :)
22:21 rrywolf hops onto kat's lap, but only makes a "plop", not a room-shaking "kathoo
22:22 katsmeow-afk hmm, Otzi the Iceman had Lyme disease
22:28 rrywolf sighs and wanders off, once again being the only person on irc who has large purple t
22:28 katsmeow-afk sorry, no need for them on robots, i think?
22:29 Tom_L ok one more step closer
22:29 furrywolf ?
22:29 Tom_itx dammit
22:29 katsmeow-afk closer to furry's purple tools?!
22:29 Tom_itx i wouldn't go near those purple tools
22:29 Tom_itx you saw the caps mounted
22:30 katsmeow-afk yeas
22:30 Tom_itx i added a terminal block on the end
22:30 katsmeow-afk ok
22:30 Tom_itx need to add a cap under for the low v stuff
22:30 Tom_itx milled the other end of my heatsink
22:30 Tom_itx for a mount
22:31 Tom_itx may figure out a temporary mount to test the whole system
22:31 Tom_itx then build an enclosure for it all
22:32 katsmeow-afk i went to bring my psu box a lil closer to completion yesterday, and found all my diodes are still boxed away, and in 30 1.4 cu ft boxes, i dunno which one
22:32 m_itx wonders how kat's water system is working
22:33 katsmeow-afk needed RO water plumbing did not get shipped, it's not here, so it's stalled
22:33 furrywolf I'm picking up a hot water heating this sunday... was only able to haggle them down to $90, so it's pretty expensive for me. :(
22:33 furrywolf which plumbing do you need? I have a whole box of john guest fittings.
22:33 m_itx decides to call it a n
22:33 katsmeow-afk and i hit rock and concrete and the simple fact of the highest point int he plumbing to get water into the cellar... is 2ft underground
22:34 furrywolf s/heating/heater
22:34 katsmeow-afk $90 is cheap for a new water heater, based on prices i have seen as i go by them
22:35 katsmeow-afk furry, the RO faucet, the auto-shutoff
22:35 furrywolf it's not new.
22:35 katsmeow-afk before i arrange the stuff, i want to make sure i won't haveto bend the lines in opposite directions for the basic equipment when it gets here
22:36 katsmeow-afk i did not order any RO pump
22:36 furrywolf don't have either of those spare... I have a whole bunch of the 1/4" tubing fittings though.
22:37 katsmeow-afk am i correct the tubing can be removed from those fittings without damage to the fittings?
22:37 furrywolf yes
22:37 katsmeow-afk press in the lil ring the tubing goes into?
22:37 furrywolf push the ring around the tube into the fitting, then pull on the tube.
22:37 katsmeow-afk ok
22:37 furrywolf while pulling on the tube, pull against the ring, not the fitting, or it'll self-tighten again
22:38 katsmeow-afk heard of the methods decades ago, never saw it happen,, tho car a/c lines use a similar system
22:38 katsmeow-afk yeas
22:40 katsmeow-afk what i have so far is the membrane, the cannister, 2 check valves to go on the outlets, EMT pipe clamps to mount the cannister to plywood (on the wall), big roll of tubing, inlet elbow, and necessary plumbing to go from 3/4 pvc to 1/4 tubing (including shutoff valve)
22:41 furrywolf the fitting is conical, narrow at the front, wider in the back. the ring has prongs on the back, with bumps on both sides. as the ring slides forwards, the cone compresses the prongs tightly into the tubing. if you hold the ring back, then nothing compresses the prongs, and the tubing sldies out.
22:41 katsmeow-afk what i wanna do is run both water outlets to open atmosphere tanks 12ft up, and gravity feed RO faucet the clean water, and feed the "waste" water to toilets
22:41 furrywolf will your toilets flush on 5psi?
22:42 katsmeow-afk being the "waste" water from the RO is cleaner than what i am feeding to the toilets now
22:42 katsmeow-afk no, i will need to add zero-pressure valves to fill the tanks
22:43 furrywolf my plan is to dump the waste into the irrigation tank.
22:43 katsmeow-afk and o, i am not finding any affordable zero-pressure valves
22:44 katsmeow-afk but i cannot see the good in making 50psi water to fill an atmospereic open tank on the back of a toilet
22:44 furrywolf heh
22:45 katsmeow-afk and i cannot see the good in wasting the RO bypass water , because in winter it all will be wasted, what with no garden in winter
22:45 furrywolf yeah, I'll be wasting it in the winter too... not because there's nothing to water, but because the big tank is also fed off a rainwater catch, which keeps it full to the brim nine months of the year.
22:46 katsmeow-afk and in summer, it's likely not enough water to use on a garden, since one tomato plant bucket needs a gallon/day, if i have 10 gal of "waste" water, all i can have is 10 tomatoe buckets!
22:46 furrywolf it's not enough to water it alone, but that's ten fewer gallons I need to pump out of the well. :)
22:48 furrywolf or roughly 500 watt-minutes.
22:48 katsmeow-afk this is true, but it's the pumping of the "waste" up to a garden that's not worth installing for 6 gallons/day, when it will go up 12ft to tanks in the ceiling all by itself, and i can gravety feed it to the toilets
22:49 katsmeow-afk how do you know when the RO membrane is bad (ruptured, clogged, etc)?
22:49 furrywolf one of these days I'll have a flush toilet!
22:49 katsmeow-afk i been looking for differential pressure guages, not seen any on eay
22:49 furrywolf the conductivity of the water goes up.
22:50 katsmeow-afk so platinum probes and an ohmmeter
22:50 furrywolf there's nothing you can measure with pressure to find it.
22:50 furrywolf dual tds meters are about $25 on ebay.
22:50 furrywolf they measure both the input and output at once
22:50 katsmeow-afk well, with a big enough hole, there will be less presure across it
22:50 katsmeow-afk oh
22:51 furrywolf no, there won't, as the output pressure is limited to whatever the load is (i.e. the top of your tank) and a constant pressure, while the input pressure is whatever your big well tank cycles to. there's no pressure differential change until the leak is huge, at which point you'd notice.
22:52 katsmeow-afk also, i heard a tds may trigger on ph, with no biologics, or mineral content may hide biologics, etc
22:52 furrywolf you could measure the output flow, but that depends on input pressure.
22:53 furrywolf I bought two complete RO systems of unknown condition... need to buy one of those meters myself.
22:55 katsmeow-afk question: if the meter determines the clean water out of the RO is contaminated, them my entire clean water system is contaminated, what do i do?
22:55 furrywolf tds really just measures conductivity, so anything that makes the water more conductive affects the reading. (and effects it too, for that matter)
22:56 tsmeow-afk wonders just how conductive giardia cysts really
22:56 furrywolf depends on what it's contaminated with, and how paranoid you are.
22:56 furrywolf they should never make it to the membrane. one of the prefilters should be small enough to trap them. the cysts are large.
22:57 katsmeow-afk i've drunk from the creek before, i'm still here, i wash with non-RO water (but it's filtered to 0.5 microns)
22:58 katsmeow-afk i have not gotten sick from that creek water, at low water when a lot of the flow is underground and the creek is a series of springs, i avoid it at high water
22:58 furrywolf a tds meter should work well for my system, as I'm measuring very hard well water, so any leaks will be very conductive.
22:58 katsmeow-afk on the other paw, i get sick eating frozen chicken from Walmart
22:58 furrywolf heh
22:58 furrywolf cook it better!
22:59 katsmeow-afk i nuke it so it's like shoe leather, i still get queasy and crampy later
22:59 furrywolf heh
22:59 rrywolf suggests a good enema any time someone is queasy or cr
22:59 katsmeow-afk it's as if i ate at Krystals, it's a guaranteed way to clean out my guts
23:00 furrywolf never heard of them.
23:01 katsmeow-afk Krystal's?
23:01 furrywolf I need to buy a DI cartridge... going to need >60 gallons for these ni-fe batteries, and I don't want to buy it at $2/gallon!
23:01 furrywolf yes
23:03 katsmeow-afk it's a fastfood burgerette place, paperthin alledged beef, 2inch square patties on 2 inch square buns, with horrible onion relish, and out of date mustard and catsup
23:03 furrywolf sounds like a good place to never eat at.
23:03 katsmeow-afk it's a chain of gastrointestinal torture sites, it's not a mom-n-pop place
23:04 furrywolf $61 left in my checking account... if I spend $25 on a tds meter, that gives me $36... I guess I can live off that for a week. I get paid next friday...
23:07 furrywolf find one cheaper than http://www.ebay.com/itm/TDS-Meter-Dual-Probe-HM-Digital-RO-DI-Water-Filter-Reverse-Osmosis-Water-Test-/251021885221?pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item3a7211ff25 ?
23:09 katsmeow-afk no, but others are selling that meter for *more*
23:09 katsmeow-afk such as http://www.ebay.com/itm/DM-1-Inline-Dual-TDS-Water-Quality-Monitor-Meter-Tester-Reverse-Osmosis-RO-check-/380371155393?pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item588fe339c1
23:09 katsmeow-afk i never thought of something like at as a kitch appliance
23:09 katsmeow-afk i am not putting mine in the kitchen, it's going in the utility room
23:10 furrywolf heh, mine's going under the kitchen sink, as that's the only place I plan on having ro water.
23:11 furrywolf I'll use it for drinking, and probably rinsing any dishes I need to use before they dry, but that's about it.
23:11 katsmeow-afk my house is 2 stories, i want drinking water on both levels, got sinks on both levels
23:11 furrywolf and if I'm queasy or crampy, of course. :)
23:12 rrywolf spends the
23:13 katsmeow-afk my RO membrane is rated at 36 gal/day, if it fills the 40 gal tank every day, i may switch the sinks to RO-only, the down side is it means i generate and pump over 300 gallons of "waste" water off the RO membrane
23:14 furrywolf it's rated 36 gal/day at 100psi input pressure, most likely.
23:14 furrywolf not 30-50
23:15 katsmeow-afk true
23:15 katsmeow-afk i said *if* it fills..
23:15 furrywolf I thought about switching the kitchen sink to ro, then realized I'd need a heat exchanger to get hot water out of it.
23:15 katsmeow-afk and it will be pushing uphill, and i have no use for all that bypass water
23:16 furrywolf also, 300 gallons sounds like way more waste than I've seen from one.
23:16 katsmeow-afk 300 from 36 ?
23:16 furrywolf yeah
23:16 katsmeow-afk ok, 120 waste, still way more water than i can use
23:16 furrywolf the ones I've seen probably dripped twice as fast from the waste than the output, not ten times as fast.
23:17 katsmeow-afk ok, 70 gallons a day waste, is 2100 gallons a month
23:17 katsmeow-afk either way , the maths makes it real sucky
23:18 furrywolf that assumes you use the full capacity every day, rather than fill a tank and stop.
23:20 furrywolf for an open tank, put a float valve in the tank on the ro output, then when the valve closes, the shutoff valve for the ro stops the input flow too.
23:20 katsmeow-afk the auto-shutoff was ordered not here yet
23:21 katsmeow-afk i do not have the float valve yet, i *wanted* to use a float i can stuff thru a 3/4 pipe opening, didn't see one i like yet
23:21 katsmeow-afk i just do not wanna cut more holes in thetank than already there
23:22 rue_mohr I'm alive
23:23 furrywolf I got a tank out of an old rv, when I was thinking of feeding ro water to the sink, but the lack of hot water pretty much killed the idea for me. running a loop to the water heater and back, with heat exchanger, is not worth it.
23:23 tsmeow-afk stops plans for rue's aut
23:23 rue_mohr nono! this sounds interesting, lets do it!
23:23 katsmeow-afk run a loop *thru* the hot water heater? or even around it under the insulation?
23:25 furrywolf all of which are too much work. :)
23:25 furrywolf I'd either need two hot water systems, or a big plumbing project.
23:26 katsmeow-afk yeas,, i am soo tired of doing things the hard way , if the gods had allowed me to run the pipe the way i wanted 12 yrs ago, i woldn't be out there now trying to get plastic pipes thru/under solid concrete now
23:27 rrywolf is now $25 po
23:27 furrywolf build a jackhammer robot
23:28 katsmeow-afk the cheapest gravety feed valve i can find, and it's sooooooo low-flow it's almost useless : http://www.ebay.com/itm/300653378588
23:28 furrywolf that won't work for your application, either.
23:29 rue_mohr hmm the youtube home page for my account is starting to look pretty complex
23:29 katsmeow-afk to fill a toilet tank? to shut off the RO water when tank is full? why not?
23:29 furrywolf I've talked to the valves4projects guy before, and bought a number of valves from him. those valves are only good to 2psi. you have 5.
23:29 furrywolf 2-3
23:29 katsmeow-afk wait, they can be overpressued on a small in-home gravety feed ssytem??
23:30 furrywolf correct.
23:30 katsmeow-afk damn
23:30 furrywolf you'd actually be giving them twice their rated pressure.
23:31 katsmeow-afk you sure you didn't have the inlet and outlet reversed?
23:31 furrywolf you have a very annoying pressure that's too high for any direct-acting valve with a reasonable orifice, and too low for any pilot-operated valve.
23:31 katsmeow-afk how do they fail at 5psi?!
23:31 furrywolf yes. 7fth2o is their rating.
23:31 furrywolf I didn't buy one. I consulted him on them, and he confirmed they wouldn't work for my system. I wanted to use them for irrigation valves.
23:32 furrywolf he has hung diaphragm pilot-operated valves, which will work, but are $25ish last I looked.
23:32 katsmeow-afk they are *tiny orfices* for use on an irrigation unless you are not in a hurry (as if the plant is going to up and leave?), but the valve should not *fail*
23:32 furrywolf and they're a bit restrictive at that low of flow.
23:33 katsmeow-afk diaphram valves won't work at that low head
23:33 furrywolf why do you think operating a valve at twice its pressure rating should not make it fail? :)
23:33 katsmeow-afk i do not see a pressure rating on it
23:33 katsmeow-afk oh, i do now
23:34 furrywolf they have a quite large orifice. I think they're meant for draining appliance tanks or something.
23:34 katsmeow-afk The maximum vertical distance between the top of the fluid surface and valve is 7 feet regardless of tank size. Water column heights over 7 feet create an excessive pressure and the valve may not open.
23:34 katsmeow-afk damn
23:34 katsmeow-afk i could overvolt them for 1 sec so they do open
23:34 furrywolf a 3/8" orifice is LARGE for a direct-acting valve. I have ones with 1/16".
23:35 katsmeow-afk they'd work at the top of the RO tank for shutting off the flow there
23:36 furrywolf hung diaphragm valves work down to 0psi, but are restrictive at the lower pressures. they're a mix of direct and pilot operated... they have a diaphragm-operated main valve, vented by a small pilot valve, but a spring between the pilot valve and the main valve, so when there isn't enough pressure to move the diaphragm, the spring opens the main valve directly.
23:36 furrywolf no, they wouldn't, as the ro output will build up to 20+ psi before the shutoff valve operated.
23:36 furrywolf or do you mean for draining it, not filling it?
23:37 katsmeow-afk damnit
23:37 furrywolf I had this same problem. :(
23:37 katsmeow-afk so the first time the tank filled, the valve would shut, but then i'd never get it to open again?
23:37 furrywolf for my irrigation, I went with a motorized ball valve.
23:37 furrywolf correct.
23:37 katsmeow-afk damnit
23:38 furrywolf but, if the only thing on the output is the gravity tank, just put a plain regular solenoid valve in the high-pressure input to the ro system, and skip the pressure-operated shutoff.
23:39 DanFrederiksen servo
23:39 tsmeow-afk
23:39 furrywolf the valves4projects guy is quite helpful... send him a message asking about the hung diaphragm valves, if you think they'd be handy. they're $25ish if I recall right, though.
23:39 furrywolf he can tell you which ones he can get in spring assisted.
23:40 katsmeow-afk i don't see them on his site
23:41 furrywolf yeah, it's a special option.
23:42 tsmeow-afk s
23:42 katsmeow-afk it's $20 here and $20 there and $20 somewhere else
23:43 furrywolf yep
23:43 furrywolf if you skip the permeate pump, which wouldn't do you much good since you have a gravity tank at low pressure, you could feed the waste into a large bladder tank, with the air bled down to 5psi or something.
23:44 katsmeow-afk but when the waste pressure builds, the clean output drops badly, correct?
23:45 furrywolf I think you can restrict the waste pretty heavily. that's why they use it to run the pump.
23:45 rue_mohr so I was told a good joke today
23:46 katsmeow-afk can you share it?
23:47 rue_mohr Whats the difference between an imaginary number and its complex conjigate? There is no real difference. get it? get it? hahahaha
23:47 tsmeow-afk gr
23:48 katsmeow-afk there is NO ONE i can tell that to irl that would get it
23:48 rue_mohr so said the person who told me, who came up with it
23:59 home whats up guys!
23:59 katsmeow-afk $34 is 260 hours of runing the pump at $0.13/kwh