#robotics Logs
May 17 2012
#robotics Calendar
00:02 rrywolf feels sorry for little fishy, and misses it.
00:11 katsmeow-afk .. Midnight, start of Thursday 5/17/2012 ..
00:17 katsmeow-afk furry : http://www.ebay.com/itm/MONARCH-M415-137-11B01B-DYNA-PACK-HYDRAULIC-PUMP-BALDOR-MOTOR-1-2HP-575V-51355-/120912002455?pt=Pneumatic_Hydraulic_Valves_Parts&hash=item1c26eabd97
00:17 katsmeow-afk oh, nm, it's 575vac too
00:18 furrywolf http://fw.bushytails.net/goldfish01.jpg http://fw.bushytails.net/goldfish02.jpg last pictures I got of him
00:19 katsmeow-afk nice
00:21 furrywolf pond is empty now.
00:22 furrywolf sigh, bbl... bedtime for sad wolfies.
00:22 tsmeow-afk fluffys the nest
00:22 rrywolf curls up on kat ins
00:23 tsmeow-afk purrs qui
00:27 furrywolf :)
01:15 katsmeow-afk [ChanServ PING reply]: 1min 4secs
01:18 katsmeow-afk [ChanServ PING reply]: 3mins 28secs
01:19 katsmeow-afk google ping:
01:19 katsmeow-afk Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
01:19 katsmeow-afk Minimum = 13ms, Maximum = 14ms, Average = 13ms
01:21 katsmeow-afk no ping back from ebay
01:24 katsmeow-afk [ChanServ PING reply]: 9mins 0secs
01:29 katsmeow-afk [ChanServ PING reply]: 1min 1sec
01:29 katsmeow-afk [ChanServ PING reply]: 1 sec
02:15 katsmeow-afk zhanx !
02:16 katsmeow-afk "Please send us your about our multibeam search systems. "
02:37 katsmeow-afk A man attending an illegal cockfight in California died after being stabbed in the leg by one of the birds, officials have said.
02:37 katsmeow-afk The cock had a knife attached to its limb to take part in the gambling fight in Tulare County, central California.
05:40 SolarNRG Hi guys, check out my clones: http://i.imgur.com/2ZPjI.jpg
05:40 SolarNRG Bottom left is the latex not so good one, top left is the ABS original, the two on the right are the platinum cure better ones
05:57 rizlah What are you using those gears for?
06:02 SolarNRG Solar tracking heliostats and wind turbines, they will be universal gear modules
06:06 saschi SolarNRG: ah, ok, your plan is "building renew-energy sources with very limited ressources"?
06:10 SolarNRG Sure, so many renewable energy companies buy prescision engineered things that cost a lotta with little gains in the long run
06:10 SolarNRG My attitude is to find cheaper more sustainable ways
06:11 saschi hmmm
06:12 saschi okay, but the efficiency scales such machines large
06:12 saschi like wind turbines
06:12 saschi larger -> more efficiency
06:13 SolarNRG Sure, tiny gears are not the answer
06:13 SolarNRG 156mm diam gears I think are sufficient for a 700watt wind turbine made from a stepped up car alternator
06:14 SolarNRG again, cheap
06:14 SolarNRG But you need the 2000 rpm
06:14 saschi ah, ok
06:14 SolarNRG these gears are step-uppable
06:14 saschi yes, but you've losses
06:14 saschi with every stage
06:14 SolarNRG sure but when you're making so many of them on such a large scale so cheap, do you care?
06:14 saschi if you use such a material, what's the loss per stage?
06:14 saschi 20%?
06:14 SolarNRG Or is it better to spend 10,000 on one highly efficient turbine?
06:15 saschi you're right
06:15 SolarNRG Or is it better to spend 10,000 on a few hundred not so good ones but cost a lot less?
06:15 SolarNRG More power is generated with the more, cheaper less efficient ones
06:15 saschi i guess in practice it's easier to buy one good turbine :)
06:15 saschi since it's reliable and stuff like that
06:16 saschi lower maintenance costs
06:16 saschi but if you're able to build cheap one, do it
06:20 SolarNRG Some BBs, nuts bolts, HDPE boards, pulleys belts, PVC pipe 3d printed gear clones, hand carved wooden blades
06:20 SolarNRG easy
06:20 SolarNRG The alternators already have 12v rectifiers on
06:21 SolarNRG I think the inverters may be the expensive bit
06:26 sjokkis hi. how can i tell if a system is stable by looking at a graph of its impulse response?
06:26 sjokkis can i at all?
06:52 SolarNRG You know some systems MUST be unstable to function, i.e. helicopters
06:52 SolarNRG Controlled instability its called
07:18 sjokkis SolarNRG: that doesn't really help when all i'm given is a graph of the impulse response for some undefined system
07:51 SolarNRG Well can you work out whether or not it has negative feedback?
08:46 theBear wouldn't an impulse graph on something unstable tend to ring and/or the impulse would just trigger oscillation ?
09:01 SolarNRG That's positive feedback
09:02 SolarNRG sometimes damping is a solution to instability
09:02 SolarNRG critical and overdamping will work. underdamping and gross underdamping will result in oscillation
12:55 katsmeow-afk solar, 2000 rpm on a car alternator? have you tried that?
12:56 SolarNRG Only with a bicylce in top gear
12:56 SolarNRG You don't get 700watts out of it thou
12:56 SolarNRG more like 200 watts
12:56 SolarNRG And its hardcore peddling
12:56 katsmeow-afk right
12:56 SolarNRG Rinkydink
12:57 katsmeow-afk if you look at the situation under the bonnet, the engine may be turning at 2000 at some moderate road speed, but the pulles on the engine and alternator are turning the alternator at a lot more than 2000 rpm
12:58 SolarNRG No when the engine's going the engine's doing 800rpm
12:58 SolarNRG the alternator is doing about 2200 rpm in idle mode
12:58 SolarNRG When you're revving along its doing morelike 6000 to 8000
12:58 katsmeow-afk plus, something most epple don't realize: the car alternator isn't designed to be efficient, it's designed to be in a car with lotsa hp and charge a lead acid battery
12:59 SolarNRG A brushless DC in 3phase AC with an altrnator's rectifier would do jsut as good
12:59 katsmeow-afk the air gap tween the rotor and the stator is HUGE, for instance
12:59 SolarNRG One cool thing about alternators is they're already made for you
12:59 SolarNRG They work
13:00 katsmeow-afk true
13:00 SolarNRG Downsides are limited power generation, hi rpm required, rectifier only outputs 12v
13:00 SolarNRG different current depending on rpm
13:01 katsmeow-afk the first step you can do to make them more efficient is to not use a V belt, use a cog-toothed-"timing" belt, or attach a turbine ( http://designerthinking.com/turbines.html ) directly to the alternator and get 10,000 rpm on it
13:02 katsmeow-afk no, not 12v
13:02 katsmeow-afk they are SO lossy, with no load the output can exceed 20v
13:02 SolarNRG In actuality using thinner wire closer to the rotor but a much much much longer shaft is best, then you can do low RPM direct drive power generation
13:03 SolarNRG But this is a pain in the ass to wid, one break in the wire's insulation and it stops working
13:03 SolarNRG wind
13:03 katsmeow-afk thinner wire close to rotor? have you opened an alternator? there's almost no wire in the stator to start with
13:03 SolarNRG Umm, I'm looking at one right now?
13:03 SolarNRG I'll take a photo
13:04 katsmeow-afk then you see you do not place wire close to the rotor, you place stator iron closer
13:04 katsmeow-afk i know what an alternator is, i played a *lot* with them in the 1970's
13:05 katsmeow-afk including rewinding them, and making modulated rotor power, and using them as amplifiers
13:05 katsmeow-afk AND using them as stepper motors
13:06 katsmeow-afk they may be poorly designed, as usa car oems made, but they have great hacking potential
13:08 katsmeow-afk two things you can do to lower their impedance: A) arc weld a layer of steel to the rotor fingers so the rotor is bigger around, or 2) slit the stator to take space out of it's circumference so it's diameter shrinks closer to the rotor
13:08 katsmeow-afk note also, the diodes that come with those things are not made or heatsinked for constant duty at rated output
13:09 katsmeow-afk i've melted out a lot of diodes
13:10 katsmeow-afk fwiw, Chrysler used a large diameter alternator that put out power a lot lower rpm than the small dia Ford alternators
13:10 katsmeow-afk but that's history
13:11 SolarNRG So how about a simple 5 gears, 3 blades, 1 alternator, 3 pulleys, nuts bolts pole wind turbine design??
13:11 SolarNRG and some bbs
13:12 katsmeow-afk gears AND pulleys?? you won't have any hp left to turn the alternator!
13:13 SolarNRG Guess I need some bigass blades then
13:13 SolarNRG Here's my gal: http://i.imgur.com/pvtOy.jpg
13:14 katsmeow-afk the more stuff you have turning, the more hp you throw away
13:14 katsmeow-afk oh man that's a dirty lic
13:14 katsmeow-afk pic
13:15 katsmeow-afk and, it looks like someone ran it with a screwdiver in it?
13:15 katsmeow-afk i see some cast iron or aluminum broken up
13:16 katsmeow-afk did you disassemble the housing off it with a hammer?!
13:17 tsmeow-afk falls down in ho
13:18 katsmeow-afk you did.... you couldn't get the bolts out, could you?
13:19 katsmeow-afk you didn't think to cut the bolt shafts long and then lift the housing off properly?
13:19 katsmeow-afk you can't run it now, the whole back bell hosing, with the brush structure, is gone
13:22 tsmeow-afk can only hope what she is seeing is due to fuzzy camera work, and maybe the alternator was not working an
13:23 katsmeow-afk sometimes, only a 3D image is worth 1000 words
13:24 katsmeow-afk but those fan blades at 7 and 8 oclock positions look broken
13:29 DanFrederiksen SolarNRG, these crotch shots are weird :)
13:34 SolarNRG How so?
13:34 tsmeow-afk hopes this unit was a "it's broken and free, but i can learn from it" situa
13:34 katsmeow-afk how so which?
13:35 SolarNRG crotch shots?
13:35 katsmeow-afk i don't care if it was a table shot, those fan blades at 7 and 8 oclock positions look broken
13:36 SolarNRG Here are the gears I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGd5g5maDYc
13:36 tsmeow-afk will look later, if that'
13:37 SolarNRG Sure
13:37 SolarNRG I'm molding gears
13:37 SolarNRG And my platinum cure silicone is AMAZING for making gear copies
13:38 katsmeow-afk afk a few
13:39 SolarNRG unlike sand its flexible and can be popped out just like a giant novelty ice cube
13:42 KongfuPanda SolarNRG, omg, those gears are gianormous!
13:45 Steffanx Why the video stops before the end SolarNRG ?
13:53 SolarNRG Because I run out of b@rreez
13:54 SolarNRG My gears are over-engineerd for multi purpose
13:55 SolarNRG And mass production
14:18 katsmeow-afk US singer Donna Summer, famous for disco classics including I Feel Love and Love To Love You Baby, has died at the age of 63.
14:18 katsmeow-afk Summer was one of disco's biggest stars and also had a huge influence on the synth pop and dance music scenes.
14:19 katsmeow-afk over engineered = way too much material ($$ plus overly s&h) for light duty
14:19 katsmeow-afk eventually, tou will need to scale them, but youc an do that later
14:20 SolarNRG Oversized beer can melted gears? They'll be strong and fine
14:21 katsmeow-afk i'm sure they will be, but if for really light duty you can ship out 10 thinner ones for your same cost of one, wouldn't you if the costomer asked for it, and the customer is almost always right?
14:29 katsmeow-afk Donna Summer's middle name was Adrian
14:33 SolarNRG Check out how many gears I have now... http://i.imgur.com/kjdFm.jpg
14:34 Steffanx What's the plan?
14:34 Steffanx with them
14:42 SolarNRG Make fuckloads of them out of cheap candlewax
14:42 SolarNRG Coat them in reusable greensand
14:42 SolarNRG melt the wax out, recycle it
14:42 SolarNRG Pour old beer cans in
14:42 SolarNRG Smash the green sand out
14:42 SolarNRG take the gear
14:42 SolarNRG recycle the wax, recycle the sand
14:42 SolarNRG MASS PRODUCE them
14:42 SolarNRG Make a heliostat wind turbine field
14:42 SolarNRG Produce electricity
14:43 SolarNRG Distill water
14:43 SolarNRG Go into OPEN SOURCE ECOLOGY
14:43 Steffanx Isn't it a better idea to find out how to melt beer cans before you continue to make 'fuckloads' of then?
14:44 SolarNRG Stainless pot on an element
14:44 katsmeow-afk i wonder if it would takeless energy to run a horizontal mill over blank aluminum disks of some shape
14:44 SolarNRG with insulation
14:44 SolarNRG tongs
14:44 SolarNRG pour
14:44 SolarNRG wait
14:44 SolarNRG smash
14:44 SolarNRG stack
14:44 SolarNRG next
14:44 Steffanx Uhm, had success with that yet?
14:44 SolarNRG Not yet :(
14:44 katsmeow-afk no, you don't smash them, you run them tween steel rollers
14:45 SolarNRG You smash off the sand when you're done to get it off
14:45 SolarNRG or the molochite
14:46 Steffanx So it's still a better idea to melt some beer cans first :P
14:46 SolarNRG Agreed, my microwave tests have so far failed
14:46 SolarNRG Although my silicon carbide did arrive today
15:02 SolarNRG I've had a great brainwave, the open source robot miner
15:28 Skwint If I was you I would make a test run of exactly one turbine
15:29 Skwint so that you discover whatever unexpected glitches you discover in a production run of size 1
15:29 SolarNRG I built one successful solar concentrator, it worked
15:29 SolarNRG I built a successful wind turbine
15:30 SolarNRG I want to build LOTS
15:30 SolarNRG I need LOTS of gears
15:30 Skwint but you didn't build it using this production technique
15:30 SolarNRG True
15:30 SolarNRG But I'm hoping to make molds of ALL the parts and simply cast them
15:31 SolarNRG the gearbox housing
15:31 SolarNRG the parabola
15:31 SolarNRG The motors, nuts bolts bbs forget it, migh as well buy them
15:31 SolarNRG But anything complex is worth casting to ramp up production
15:32 Skwint well, once you start, you can use the power from the turbines you already have to melt the metal for the next ones
15:32 rue_mohr I'm back
15:32 katsmeow-afk http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/science-religion-researchers-god-neglected-laboratory/print?id=16364587
15:32 katsmeow-afk "A study we did on Iranians shows that having a nuclear program has nothing to do with religion," Atran said. "But it has become a religious subject for at least 13 percent of the population, and those 13 percent are closest to the regime. And so they now believe a nuclear program is bound up with the notion of national identity and with Islam itself."
15:36 rue_mohr I thought a funny thing kat
15:36 Tom_itx wtf is rue_mohr doing here??
15:36 rue_mohr a) stupid people are outbreeding smart ones
15:36 Tom_itx did you get fired?
15:36 rue_mohr b) christian couples have inordinatly high amounts of offspring
15:37 rue_mohr no I'm back from vancouver training
15:37 Skwint as do muslim couples
15:37 Skwint be fair
15:37 Tom_itx b) catholics and mormons
15:37 Tom_itx and muslims
15:37 Tom_itx apparently
15:37 Skwint it is in the interest of any religion to outbreed everyone else - it gives religious control over democracy
15:38 rue_mohr its all a bit generaal but what can be derived from it
15:38 Tom_itx Skwint, same goes with immigration laws and voting power
15:38 Tom_itx don't let them kid you
15:38 SolarNRG Actually I'm hoping a giant parabolic mirror can melt steel eventually
15:39 katsmeow-afk tehre ARE parabolics that melt steel
15:39 Skwint if you could make a glass lens that melted sand you'd have a reproducible system too, in a desert
15:40 SolarNRG Markus Kayser proved this
15:40 rue_mohr SolarNRG, wait, you want to melt the steel so you can cast gears to make a solar reflector
15:41 rue_mohr SolarNRG, you have a problem here
15:41 katsmeow-afk there ARE lenses used to melt sand, one guy even did a reprap using focussed sun to make sand castles,, or other small things, from desert sand
15:41 rue_mohr off to work, bye!
15:41 SolarNRG huh?
15:41 katsmeow-afk be safe, rues
15:42 katsmeow-afk huh?
15:43 SolarNRG What's wrong with melting steel into casts?
15:43 SolarNRG With the sun?
15:43 SolarNRG A big enough reflector can do it
15:43 katsmeow-afk no one said it was wrong
17:18 KongfuPanda Steffanx, hi, how are things?
17:18 Steffanx 'things' are ok
17:18 Steffanx There?
17:20 KongfuPanda not too bad
17:20 KongfuPanda just booked a holiday to Gran Canaria
17:22 Steffanx :)
17:23 KongfuPanda que ??
17:23 Steffanx Just :)
17:24 KongfuPanda Steffanx, are you going anywhere this summer?
17:24 Steffanx No
17:24 KongfuPanda brb, getting a cup of tea
17:24 KongfuPanda how come?
17:24 Steffanx Tea .. it's time to sleep :P
17:26 KongfuPanda tea is not keeping me awake
17:26 KongfuPanda Steffanx, where are you from, again?
17:27 Steffanx The Country South-EAST-EAST From you
17:27 KongfuPanda netherlands
17:27 Steffanx :)
17:27 KongfuPanda btw, the hotel where we are going is like a dutch hotel
17:28 Steffanx Cheap :P
17:28 KongfuPanda I dunno why, but there are a lot of bad reviews where people complain that there are too many dutch
17:28 KongfuPanda yeah, it's cheap, but looks good
17:28 KongfuPanda we are not there to talk to the dutch though
17:28 KongfuPanda we will go by car to see places and to the beach
17:29 Skwint there ARE too many dutch
17:29 Skwint there are also too many English
17:29 Skwint too many French
17:29 KongfuPanda Skwint, have you been to Gran Canaria?
17:29 Skwint no
17:30 KongfuPanda Skwint, that's where we decided to go on holidays
17:30 Steffanx We = ?
17:30 KongfuPanda yeah
17:30 KongfuPanda it's a secret :D
17:30 Skwint if I went out there it would be to climb the volcanoes not to do the tourist thing
17:30 KongfuPanda Skwint, are you going anywhere?
17:30 Skwint probably
17:31 Skwint I was looking for a job but they all are either unsuitable for me or don't like me
17:31 KongfuPanda Skwint, are are going to see the rock stuff near the centre of the island
17:31 Skwint so I'll travel instead :)
17:31 Skwint I'm thinking of going to Greenland and then across Canada
17:31 KongfuPanda Skwint, do you have monies? without any jobs? I'm actually spending leftover from my student loan :D phahah, still got 24k debt in loans
17:32 Skwint I have had jobs before and I have money left over from those :p
17:32 KongfuPanda Skwint, sound nice
17:32 KongfuPanda Skwint, so you are like a nature-type?
17:32 KongfuPanda who likes mountains and stuff
17:33 Skwint yup
17:33 Skwint my boots, my rucksack and I
17:33 Skwint and the prettiest horizon
17:33 KongfuPanda I like it too, last august I went to California in the USA (maybe I told you already before). Went to yosemite, death valley, sequoia park, mono lake, bodie ghost town, etc
17:34 KongfuPanda and scotland in March
17:35 Steffanx Alone Skwint ?
17:35 SolarNRG I'm in Scotland
17:35 SolarNRG Its shite here
17:35 KongfuPanda Skwint, Moro Rock trail was amazing in Sequoia park
17:35 Steffanx It's worse here, so be happy SolarNRG
17:36 KongfuPanda SolarNRG, it's was great ! especially the sea food in Loch Fyne and nearby, we got like a lot of it. There was a tiny local sea food shop, that was amazing
17:36 KongfuPanda SOlarNRG, and little castles everywhere
17:37 SolarNRG Well I see no castles, only council flats
17:37 Skwint generally alone Steffanx , yes
17:37 Skwint my friends are a bit less adventurous
17:38 KongfuPanda this is from scotland: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26776513/DSC_1031.jpg
17:38 KongfuPanda from a little church
17:38 Steffanx Great country :P
17:40 KongfuPanda and this is a small local sea food place: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26776513/DSC_1058.jpg
17:41 KongfuPanda these are scottish cows: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26776513/DSC_1282.jpg
17:42 KongfuPanda we also saw these gianormous bulls: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26776513/DSC_1470.jpg they are like two cars put together. I've never seen so huge
17:43 zhanx KongfuPanda: where you from?
17:43 Steffanx His mother
17:43 Steffanx and father
17:43 SolarNRG ITS LIVE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWIw7XLBmXc
17:43 SolarNRG My latest video
17:43 anx kicks Steffanx in the little
17:43 Steffanx UK iti s
17:43 KongfuPanda zhanx, I'm originally from Ukraine, but I've lived in England for the last 8 years
17:44 Steffanx So UK :P
17:44 zhanx k, those large cows are normal sized really for the usa
17:44 Steffanx You don't have the nice black/white cows?
17:44 zhanx some yes
17:45 KongfuPanda zhanx, where r u from?
17:45 zhanx usa, michigan originally
17:45 KongfuPanda cool cool
17:46 Steffanx Just curious, you went to England to study KongfuPanda ?
17:46 KongfuPanda Skwint, if you want to sea amazing mountains, go to Yosemite. I loved it.
17:47 KongfuPanda Steffanx, no
17:47 zhanx woot! they paid my travel voucher! I gots money again
17:47 Steffanx WHY ON EARTH YOU DO THAT INSIDE YOUR HOUSE SolarNRG ?!?!
17:47 Steffanx Want to burn the place down?
17:47 KongfuPanda zhanx, go to Yosemite
17:48 zhanx its a fun place to mountain bike
17:48 KongfuPanda SolarNRG, do you ever clean your kitchen?
17:48 Steffanx It looks pretty clean :P
17:49 KongfuPanda it's gross
17:49 Steffanx You as a student shouldn't care ..
17:50 SolarNRG yeah i cleaned it this morning
17:50 SolarNRG it gets messy come nighttime
17:50 Steffanx I really wonder if you want to burn your place down SolarNRG ..
17:50 SolarNRG I'll have it spotless and in the blink of an eye there will be a PILE of dirty dishes
17:54 Skwint some of my favourite mountains : https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150424914840997.354648.631000996&type=3&l=fd8a7668f4
17:54 Skwint if you don't mind wading through a dozen boring holiday photos as well :/
17:56 Steffanx Facebook, too bad
17:56 katsmeow-afk the Grand Tetons are just west of Yellowstone, those are some awesome mountains also
17:56 Skwint facebook is a great way to send postcards to all your friends when you are travelling
17:57 Steffanx If you want a 'postcard' from someone with a random name (me) … :P
17:58 KongfuPanda Skwint, omg, New Zealand looks amaing
17:58 Steffanx Random as in, fictive/nonexistent
17:59 Skwint if you like dissapearing for a few days with a rucksack and a camping stove, new zealand is truly awesome :}
17:59 Skwint actually, it's awesome anyway, but that helps
18:00 DanFrederiksen yet another day where noone understands the need for simple good cheap servo controllers
18:02 DanFrederiksen yet another day where no robotics is achieved
18:02 zhanx Skwint: I prefer a ultralight pack and a whisperlite stove, makes places more fun when the weight of the pack is not noticed
18:03 Skwint servo controllers
18:03 Skwint um
18:03 Skwint something that emits hardware pwm on demand?
18:04 Steffanx Skwint i just hate the 24 hours in an airplane to get there :p
18:04 Skwint yeah, that does kinda suck
18:04 Skwint I went for 3 months which kind of makes up for it :p
18:05 KongfuPanda why would you want some kind of controllers anyway? what I want is a device such that I can just tell it to move by some angle , and it works on it's own, so I don't have to worry about timers and stuff
18:13 DanFrederiksen KongfuPanda, indeed
18:13 DanFrederiksen would that not be a controller
18:15 DanFrederiksen stepper motors are shit and only useful for toys projects. only real servo can do proper robotics
18:15 Tom_itx untrue
18:15 zhanx very untrue
18:17 DanFrederiksen of course it's true. wake up
18:17 orlok who the fuck let DanFrederiksen back in
18:17 orlok i was happy that he finally fucked off and stopped acting like a dickhead in #astronomy
18:17 Tom_itx yeah that dude should be shot
18:18 Tom_itx dan, what have you done with servos?
18:18 zhanx ok, give me an address
18:18 Steffanx I guess i missed all the fun
18:18 orlok a servo is a sort of servant.. he has lots of servants maybe?
18:19 orlok slaves even?
18:19 SolarNRG Did you guys see my collection of gears?
18:19 DanFrederiksen do industrial robots use stepper motors or servos. does honda asimo use stepper motors
18:19 Tom_itx yeah we saw them. no more youtube on them please mkay?
18:19 Steffanx You are not allowed to show them again, until you can show them made of metal SolarNRG :)
18:19 Tom_itx dan, what have you done with servos?
18:20 SolarNRG OK, I'll show you when I've done an ally gear
18:20 DanFrederiksen Tom_itx, nothing. and it's quite irrelevant
18:20 Tom_itx no it isn't
18:20 DanFrederiksen but if products were readily available I might. and so would you
18:20 anx hides all his extra steppers and se
18:20 DanFrederiksen noone would ever use steppers again
18:21 orlok DanFrederiksen: my commercially produced equatorial mount uses steppers.
18:21 SolarNRG Can you turn a windscreen wiper into a servo motor?
18:21 orlok DanFrederiksen: IF WE ALL HAD WISHES< THAT WOULD BE AWESOME TOO!
18:21 ace4016 i'm not sure what type of motor matters...
18:21 orlok give me some gold while you are at it
18:21 orlok and my own moonbase
18:21 zhanx i second the moonbase as an evil lair
18:21 orlok I WANT MY MOONBASE WHY CANT YOU GIVE ME A MOONBASE YOU USELESS PRICK
18:22 SolarNRG join highaltitude and work out how to make your own saturn V rocket then
18:22 zhanx i get to be an evil thug ok orlok ?
18:22 SolarNRG gain, until you can show them made of me
18:22 orlok SolarNRG: i want a moonbase, i dont want to be a building contractor.
18:22 SolarNRG Beddy byes for snoozey pies!!!
18:22 orlok zhanx: Sure! Just stay away from the steamrollers.
18:22 DanFrederiksen criticising steppers really brought the beast out in many
18:23 zhanx dan you forget every motor has a reason it is used it all
18:23 DanFrederiksen no I don't
18:24 Tom_itx i have used steppers and i have used servos
18:24 ace4016 clearly you're a half-heathen
18:24 Tom_itx which half?
18:24 zhanx and motors also tom
18:24 zhanx so your 1/3 heathen
18:25 Tom_itx calm down orlok
18:25 orlok zhanx: hear about the new chevy?
18:25 zhanx nope
18:26 Tom_itx the one that's way overpriced?
18:26 DanFrederiksen Tom_itx, you should perhaps calm down a little too and reflect on what you said
18:26 Tom_itx i'm rather calm
18:26 Tom_itx and i know what i said
18:26 orlok http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/100-million-holden-muscle-car-export-deal-20120517-1yt4t.html
18:26 DanFrederiksen Tom_itx, you didn't get carried away and suggest I should be shot?
18:26 Tom_itx maybe you should re read that
18:27 Tom_itx i think you're mistaken
18:27 Tom_itx iirc i was referring to the dude that let you back in
18:28 DanFrederiksen hardly better
18:28 Tom_itx a matter of perspective
18:28 DanFrederiksen not really. and you snapped at solarnrg
18:28 Tom_itx not really
18:29 Tom_itx you haven't followed that thread very well
18:29 DanFrederiksen must be it
18:29 zhanx wow anger issues
18:29 Tom_itx no not with me
18:30 zhanx i did offer to shoot them
18:30 Tom_itx solar has been trying a couple different things like a microwave foundary and making gears with latex molds
18:30 zhanx in his kitchen that needs a cleaning
18:30 Tom_itx every time he did a test he posted a youtube on it and we requested that he just show a picture
18:31 Tom_itx so we got to see 9 or 10 failed attempts
18:32 DanFrederiksen only servos will do real robotics. how that's possible to not understand is a mystery
18:32 Tom_itx you must not be much of an engineer if you can't make a servo do robotics
18:32 Tom_itx or stepper
18:32 DanFrederiksen smooth robotic arms and legs. terminator stuff. such cannot be done with crappy stepper
18:32 DanFrederiksen s
18:33 Tom_itx sure they can
18:33 zhanx my cnc is steppers and runs very smooth
18:33 Tom_itx my new drivers will make mine run even smoother and give them a much better power band
18:34 DanFrederiksen steppers have no strength, no speed. and is used as open loop which makes their strength ridiculously poor
18:34 DanFrederiksen and pathetic efficiecy
18:34 DanFrederiksen efficiency
18:34 DanFrederiksen they exist because their control is simple
18:35 DanFrederiksen but they cannot do real robotics
18:35 DanFrederiksen wake up
18:35 Tom_itx so why didn't they use servos in floppy and cd dvd drives?
18:35 DanFrederiksen you waste your lives be denying yourselves this truth
18:35 ace4016 lol...every time is like this...
18:35 Tom_itx their positioning is quite precise
18:36 orlok our lives will be wasted by trolls like you
18:36 Tom_itx ace4016 i know
18:36 zhanx umm arguing on irc and I am wasting my life?
18:36 Tom_itx it's cheap entertainment
18:36 zhanx true
18:36 DanFrederiksen if I am so wrong, show me the arms you have made that do smooth graceful and fast motion
18:36 zhanx but alast I must cook dinner in a minute
18:37 orlok steppers are going to have some minimum granularity of movement just as a servo does
18:37 orlok you are not talking about steppers vs everything else, you are talking about the lack of a feedback loop
18:37 DanFrederiksen feedback wont save a stepper
18:38 DanFrederiksen it's still shit. you'll just know how shitty from the feedback
18:38 orlok hmm. my stepper motor smoothly compensates for the rotation of the earth
18:39 DanFrederiksen such impressive motion in a commercial telescope..
18:39 DanFrederiksen like a robotic cheetah
18:39 DanFrederiksen or not
18:42 Tom_itx stepper based system with the same equipment i use: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvhvQu5Xxtk
18:48 DanFrederiksen and this is servo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3C5sc8b3xM
18:49 ace4016 lol...asimo isn't impressive
18:49 DanFrederiksen that is what we can do if you wake up and stop being so damned obtuse
18:49 Tom_itx how useful is it to watch a machine run across a room? that's hardly productive
18:50 DanFrederiksen wow
18:50 Tom_itx the japanese are obsessed with humanoids
18:50 ace4016 there's no bounce in its step; it's basically a robot placing his feet "rapidly"
18:51 ace4016 they also are very afraid of it falling over :P
18:51 Tom_itx at least it didn't fall over this time
18:51 ace4016 hehe
18:52 ace4016 asimo is basically a big ass sumobot with a honda sticker
18:53 Tom_itx is that a bot walking beside it?
18:54 DanFrederiksen only I could make that happen
18:55 Tom_itx i don't see you doing it
18:55 DanFrederiksen I don't see you helping
18:55 Tom_itx why would i?
18:55 ace4016 because you should work on other people's ideas without being paid, even if you don't care about it
18:55 Tom_itx a robot pushing a cart is very inefficient
18:55 DanFrederiksen goog cheap servo controllers would help everyone do more
18:55 DanFrederiksen good
18:56 ace4016 is it really that hard for people to make servo controllers?
18:56 Tom_itx even McDonalds has a more efficient robotics system in their hamburger stands
18:57 DanFrederiksen well it seems people stumble over just understanding the benefit in having them. never gets to making them
18:57 Tom_itx i've made plenty of things
18:57 DanFrederiksen it's a demonstrator tom. why do you choose to be so obtuse
18:57 KongfuPanda check out this motor: http://youtu.be/3aPQqNt15-o
18:58 Tom_itx there are lots more efficient ways to do those simple tasks
18:58 Tom_itx they just feel the need to show off their hard work to their investors i guess
19:00 Tom_itx the denver luggage handling system was a fiasco when they put it online and i'm sure it was servo based
19:00 nFrederiksen facep
19:00 e4016 isn't quite sure when everyone apparently said they didn't want to use se
19:00 DanFrederiksen I guess industrial robots in general are a failure too since they use servos
19:01 Tom_itx ace4016 dan just feels there is no place for steppers
19:01 orlok ace4016: DanFrederiksen is a troll, that is all.
19:01 Tom_itx and my argument is that there is a place for both steppers and servos
19:01 ace4016 because i need my cd tray to also cut my beef femur; get as much use as possible from it
19:01 DanFrederiksen and you are wrong
19:01 Tom_itx servos cost more
19:01 orlok DanFrederiksen: he thinks he is a genius and that everybody should implement his ideas, and comes on IRC to various channels to tell us all that we should.
19:02 Tom_itx orlok i know but i haven't seen much that he has done
19:02 DanFrederiksen but if servo systems were available at this level I wouldn't mind steppers being around
19:02 DanFrederiksen but you don't even understand the worth of servos
19:02 Tom_itx oh sure i do
19:02 orlok DanFrederiksen: define a servo.
19:02 DanFrederiksen you don't seek it. indeed you get violently angry at the idea that it should be furthered
19:03 orlok DanFrederiksen: is the exact sort of motor drive system defined anywhere by the term "servo"?
19:03 Tom_itx but i don't think you appreciate the fact that steppers have a place as well
19:03 DanFrederiksen I don't as such mind their use in stuff like printers
19:03 DanFrederiksen or slow weak steady motion stuff like telescopes
19:03 orlok Isnt a servo just a motor with a feedback loop?
19:04 DanFrederiksen but for actual robotics there is only servo
19:04 orlok DanFrederiksen: define this "servo" you talk about
19:04 Tom_itx is a printer a robot?
19:04 DanFrederiksen no
19:04 Tom_itx why not?
19:04 DanFrederiksen it's a printer
19:04 orlok DanFrederiksen: if i go to the local shop and buy a "servo" i get something much much weaker than my telescope stepper
19:04 Tom_itx what defines a robot?
19:04 orlok DanFrederiksen: define a servo.
19:04 DanFrederiksen Tom_itx, you are being obtuse again
19:04 orlok DanFrederiksen: define a servo.
19:04 DanFrederiksen you know what robotics is
19:05 Tom_itx i'm not sure you do
19:05 orlok [DanFrederiksen(DanFreder@0x55531367.adsl.cybercity.dk)] go fuck yourself
19:05 orlok hahahah
19:05 orlok I WIN!
19:05 Tom_itx name calling won't get you far really
19:05 DanFrederiksen brilliance and reason wont either
19:06 orlok DanFrederiksen: define this "servo" you are talking about
19:06 Tom_itx and i presume you think you speak from experience?
19:06 orlok [DanFrederiksen(DanFreder@0x55531367.adsl.cybercity.dk)] go play on the freeway retard
19:06 m_itx goes to work on his stepper based
19:07 DanFrederiksen Tom_itx, experience is not required here but that too
19:07 Tom_itx talk without experience carries little weight
19:07 orlok Are you incapable of actually defining this "Servo" you claim will let me make a robotic quadrapet mount that will run like a cat?
19:08 DanFrederiksen Tom_itx, experience tells me you'll reach for any excuse to avoid being reasonable
19:08 orlok or do you understand that if you actually try and define what a "servo" is you will realise you are talking shite.
19:09 Tom_itx i'm very reasonable
19:09 Tom_itx you are still here
19:09 DanFrederiksen am I not merciful..
19:10 DanFrederiksen just think about it
19:10 Tom_itx naw, i'm gonna think about my cnc a while
19:11 orlok DanFrederiksen: Please, are you incapable of actually explaining or defining what you mean when you say "servo"?
19:11 DanFrederiksen no orlok. you are entirely too vacuous to be reached by reason. that is why I don't dignify your thoughtless impulses
19:12 e_mohr rel
19:12 rue_mohr if I may
19:12 DanFrederiksen every reasonable person knows what a servo is in this context
19:13 ace4016 servo motor is a motor used in a servomechanism
19:13 DanFrederiksen rue_mohr, I dare not hope for faith in humanity but go ahead
19:13 orlok DanFrederiksen: No, i want you to explain it.
19:14 ace4016 usually the motor would be attached to some sort of encorder to provide position/speed info for further control
19:14 orlok DanFrederiksen: i want to see what YOU think it is, specifically.
19:14 DanFrederiksen and usually it would have no significant cogging
19:15 Tom_itx good drivers eliminate cogging in steppers
19:16 orlok SO your positional accuracy is still limited to your encoder.
19:16 DanFrederiksen Tom_itx, masking it with wasted current is not elimination
19:16 orlok So nothing says that a servo cannot be stepper based.
19:16 Tom_itx it isn't
19:17 Tom_itx it's actually more efficient
19:17 DanFrederiksen of course it is
19:18 katsmeow-afk it's a lil wierd seeing you 4 guys talking about the same thing, but not to each other
19:18 ace4016 orlok, the difference between a stepper and servo is open-loop vs feedback loop :P
19:18 ace4016 different control scheme
19:18 orlok ace4016: No..
19:18 DanFrederiksen katsmeow-afk forgets she has me on ignore
19:18 Tom_itx i don't think she forgot for a second danf
19:19 DanFrederiksen she has before
19:19 Tom_itx i'm sure it was a concious effort on her part
19:19 katsmeow-afk i didn't see anyone say i forgot something :-)
19:19 orlok ace4016: a servo could be any sort of motor, could it not?
19:19 ace4016 4 people would mean she can see you...
19:19 katsmeow-afk ace + Tom + rue + orlok = 4, no?
19:20 ace4016 orlok, well...i guess you could use a stepper in a servo; especially if you wanted to piss off dan
19:20 DanFrederiksen quick. at all cost deny dan was right
19:20 ace4016 :P
19:20 orlok ace4016: so whether the drive system of a servo is a brushed motor, brushless, stepper, or chinese orphan in a tradmill, does it really matter? its the feedback loop.
19:20 DanFrederiksen he must not be right!
19:20 orlok ace4016: i see plenty of systems that use steppers with a feedback loop
19:20 katsmeow-afk a stepper can be bogged down so it cannot move iin the desired directon, thereby missing a step, being out of position, and without feedback you would not know it
19:21 DanFrederiksen indeed
19:21 DanFrederiksen and it doesn't take much
19:21 katsmeow-afk it might een move backwards a step
19:21 orlok katsmeow-afk: as can any motor
19:21 katsmeow-afk i agree, yeas
19:21 DanFrederiksen the slightest thing and it's useless because it's so weak
19:21 katsmeow-afk i wasn't arguing
19:21 orlok DanFrederiksen: "weak" is relative
19:21 tsmeow-afk goes back outside to dig more h
19:21 DanFrederiksen relative to servos
19:21 ace4016 what are the holes for?
19:22 orlok DanFrederiksen: nothing about a "servo" defines its power
19:22 orlok DanFrederiksen: my stepper has more torque than any motor i would get if i went into the local shop and asked for a servo
19:22 orlok "servo" does not define torque or horsepower or speed
19:22 orlok neither does "stepper"
19:22 katsmeow-afk er, if "weak" was in ref to a stepper, it was a 1hp 240v stepper that got it's load locked, and mess of automated stuff got trashed when the system was out of step
19:22 orlok so stop trying to basee arguments about values that neither "Servo" or "stepper" define
19:23 katsmeow-afk ace, trying to get water into the cellar from the opposite side of the house that i had installed plumbing for 20 yrs ago, before the Dog Era
19:23 DanFrederiksen katsmeow speaks the truth when she doesn't know that she needs to deny I am right :)
19:23 orlok you might as well say "any internal combustion engine is more powerfull than an brushless motor"
19:23 ace4016 kats, ah...
19:24 orlok Servos are all useless. you should be using hydraulics.
19:24 DanFrederiksen Tom_itx, you would love it if your CNC moved really fast and smoothly and never had a chance to miss a step
19:24 orlok Servos are weak.
19:24 tsmeow-afk yanks all the servos out of te harddrives and installs hydrau
19:25 DanFrederiksen :)
19:26 katsmeow-afk anyhoo, bbl
19:26 ace4016 "argh! my computer is leaking hydraulic fluid!"
19:26 Skwint I have servos on my RC car and servos on both my RC planes
19:27 Skwint and so far they have been good enough to drive around, look around, and fly around
19:27 orlok Skwint: could they lift 20kg?
19:27 DanFrederiksen Skwint, that's obviously not the type in question
19:27 Skwint nope
19:27 orlok Skwint: my steppers could. all servos must therefor be crap!
19:27 orlok DanFrederiksen: no, its not obvious.
19:27 orlok DanFrederiksen: and how is that not a servo of the type you stated?
19:28 Skwint well, most of my servos are blue - maybe he means red ones?
19:28 orlok Its a motor with a feedback loop, positional encoder, etc.
19:28 orlok DanFrederiksen: why dony you just say "BIGGER FASTER MOTORS ARE BIGGER AND FASTER THAN SMALLER AND SLOWER MOTORS
19:28 orlok [DanFrederiksen(DanFreder@0x55531367.adsl.cybercity.dk)] its been fairly well established that you are a moron, really no need for further exemplification
19:28 orlok DanFrederiksen: thats _really_ all you are trying to say isnt it?
19:29 orlok [DanFrederiksen(DanFreder@0x55531367.adsl.cybercity.dk)] just silence will do nicely
19:29 orlok yes
19:29 orlok silence would be nice
19:29 orlok now please, kindly, shut the fuck up you useless troll.
19:29 DanFrederiksen I am not a troll. I am a really smart and serious person, vastly smarter than you
19:30 zhanx careful with that
19:30 Skwint if only you could communicate!
19:30 DanFrederiksen Skwint, if only you could understand
19:31 orlok DanFrederiksen doesnt seem to be able to understand the difference between a control mechanism and a drive mechanism
19:31 orlok a hydraulic ram with a linear encoder.. is that a servo?
19:31 Skwint it's probably to do with his superior intellect
19:31 Skwint my inferior intellect is trying to work out the syntax of the IRC ignore command :p
19:31 orlok Skwint: He could write an AI, but he wont, as the US Military will come and liberate it.
19:32 DanFrederiksen is that what they do. liberate
19:32 ace4016 god dammit orlok; can't you see that my intelligence is superior to yours, therefore you should succumb to my every whim? why will you not just give up your your brain and become my mindless puppet? WHY?!
19:32 DanFrederiksen ace4016, need I remind you that you said asimo was just a large scale sumobot
19:33 ace4016 it is
19:33 ace4016 essentially
19:33 DanFrederiksen more or less
19:33 DanFrederiksen or it could be spectacularly wrong. one of those two
19:34 ace4016 rinky dinky servos that can't really reproduce humanoid movements moving around plastic limbs...seems pretty similar to me
19:34 ace4016 they even move the same
19:34 ace4016 i wonder why...
19:34 ace4016 but the sumobots can fall and get up without everyone having a heart attack :D
19:37 ace4016 i honestly don't think the electric motors used in servos in robots like asimo are the future of life-like moving robots; same goes for using steppers in them
19:39 DanFrederiksen artificial muscles would be better. but until then servos is the way
19:39 DanFrederiksen just out of curiosity, what sumobot are you thinking of?
19:40 ace4016 http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2134/1690510388_16c0baba1c.jpg
19:41 ace4016 they might commonly be refered to as something else; the correct name slips me
19:41 ace4016 either way; their movements are really robotic :P
19:41 ace4016 even qrio; and i liked qrio
19:42 DanFrederiksen nao is halfway decent. but still far from what it should be
19:43 DanFrederiksen and the price is nasty
19:44 ace4016 yup
19:45 ace4016 hrm...i kind of want to create a limb with brushless motors that have compliance now...
19:45 ace4016 just for the hell of it
19:46 orlok kernel panic.. that guys a bastard.
19:46 DanFrederiksen you mean smooth powerful motion in a limb? surely you'll just use steppers, no?
19:46 ace4016 Colonel Panic?
19:46 ace4016 why do you think people only use steppers?
19:46 DanFrederiksen I can't say that without getting banned
19:46 ace4016 most things people seem to be making use servos...
19:47 ace4016 so the arguement was quite moot
19:47 orlok Why would you use any rotary type motor for something that has to perform that sort of movement. why not a hydraulic linear motor?
19:47 ace4016 pumps
19:47 DanFrederiksen because it's slow and horribly imprecise
19:47 ace4016 it's usually the limiting factor
19:47 DanFrederiksen and yes really ugly power system
19:48 ace4016 imprecision is actually a desired trait :P
19:48 ace4016 for life like
19:48 orlok hydraulics are not necessarily slow
19:48 DanFrederiksen yeah, table tennis players have really poor precision. it's like looking at a backhoe
19:48 ace4016 as it stands, hydraulic/pneumatic has already created life like movements in animatronics
19:48 orlok and you can use them with a feedback loop control system
19:49 DanFrederiksen hydraulics is so shitty it makes steppers look dreamy
19:49 orlok backhoes have great precision. they can hit a 5mm thick bit of fiber in a single try
19:49 DanFrederiksen backhoes have spastic motion
19:49 DanFrederiksen because os the static friction barrier
19:49 DanFrederiksen of
19:50 orlok but making them a servo will solve all of that, RIGHT.
19:50 DanFrederiksen it is used because it's realtively easy to make strong
19:50 DanFrederiksen a work machine based on servos could be much better yes
19:50 DanFrederiksen could be really fast and impressive
19:51 DanFrederiksen I have considered a gorilla type excavator droid you sit in
19:51 orlok why dont you go and make it
19:51 orlok come back
19:51 orlok and prove us all the be morons
19:51 ace4016 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LepI9g62N7o
19:51 orlok as you conqour the world in your robot ape suit
19:51 orlok as you see
19:51 orlok i have considered a moon base
19:51 orlok moon bases win out over gorilla droids
19:51 orlok i win
19:51 orlok bye
19:51 DanFrederiksen bye
19:52 orlok you have not left yet
19:52 orlok i win, you have to leave.
19:52 orlok so go away
19:52 DanFrederiksen ace4016, please do the brushless limb. it's a good idea. could be great
19:52 ace4016 there's a video of the animatrons doing faster movements as well
19:53 DanFrederiksen brushless RC motors seem to be strong cheap and light. might make for a great DIY servo motor
19:53 ace4016 was funny though...when they updated the animatrons with the new system, the first demo was done with abe alone and he sprang a leak....the hydraulic fluid was red, so it was a little disturbing to the viewers :P
19:59 ace4016 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dsAo6fJjdY
20:00 rue_mohr I need sleep
20:09 tsmeow-afk points out the bluury line tween steppers and non-brushed servoes : ye olde regular 3phase m
20:10 Skwint what is a stepper?
20:10 Skwint odd question, I know, but ...
20:11 katsmeow-afk if you pull the rotor, and put in a magenticly energised , or other wound rotor , you could use it as a coarse stepper, or as a regular motor on regular 3phase lines
20:12 wint google
20:12 katsmeow-afk stepper turns an increment with each pulse increment into it's controller
20:13 Skwint wikipedia has an animated gid of one - I now understand
20:16 katsmeow-afk a 3phase powerline just keeps swinging the magnetic field around the stator, same way a 3phase stepper would if you told it to
20:20 katsmeow-afk The employee apparently cut her finger on a meat slicer and left her station without immediately telling anyone, said Steve Hall, the environmental health director for the Jackson County health department. Her co-workers continued filling orders until they found out what had happened, he said.
20:20 katsmeow-afk i keep saying, humans now figue if it's gone away from them, it's vanished, and not going to bother anyone, same with smoke, gods running wild, etc
20:24 katsmeow-afk "A man suspected of swallowing a $20,000 (£12,600) diamond is being held in custody in Windsor, Canada, until it passes through his system, police say. The 1.7 carat diamond has not appeared despite server visits to the bathroom (file pic)"
20:25 katsmeow-afk odd place to put a server
20:29 katsmeow-afk considering the guy ate 2 cubic zirconia and they show on xrays, and real diamonds will not(?) show up on the xrays, how long can they hold him on lack of evidence that there's diamonds inside him?
20:38 furrywolf yay, got some charging in today finally.
20:53 zhanx old collage football buddy called, he wants to join the army. sad
22:17 katsmeow-afk zhanx, what would you rather he do?
22:18 katsmeow-afk better living thru chemistry: on the new water, soap leaves a slimy feel, it doesn't wash clean, so: spritz a lil window cleaner in a bowl, fill bowl with water, dip paws into bowl, pick up bar soap and wash, soap lathers better and now rinses off paws cleanly
22:41 katsmeow-afk 210 PCS INTEL KU80960CA-25
22:42 katsmeow-afk current bid $35 ; 1 day 21 hrs left ; 25Mhz 32bit IBM cpu
22:43 katsmeow-afk what size is CR0805X7R103K2NT91
22:43 katsmeow-afk 805?
22:44 Tom_itx looks like it
22:44 katsmeow-afk is that little? huge?
22:45 Tom_itx i solder 0603
22:45 Tom_itx started with 1206 and 0805
22:46 katsmeow-afk 3000 for $3 sounds good, but those would be the only smd on the pcb, they might get lonely, and i'd feel werd about it
22:47 home I still need to learn how to solder
22:47 home will steal some flux and pin headers tommorow hopefully
22:47 home katsmeow-afk: whats that?
22:48 katsmeow-afk what's which?
22:48 home the 25Mhz thingymajiggy
22:49 katsmeow-afk fancy risc cpu, you may be more familiar with it's vanilla number: 80960
22:50 katsmeow-afk feel free to plug the number into your fav parts search engine, there's 68 pages in the "hi there" pdf
22:58 home wow
22:58 home cool!
22:58 home i am still a nub..
22:58 home learnt about what asm is recently..
22:58 furrywolf this workbench I'm building is fucking HEAVY. I might need to get help moving it inside.
22:59 katsmeow-afk silly wolfy, you haveto build heavy stuff where it's going to live!
23:00 furrywolf I don't have the legs attached yet... I was planning on building the rest of it, as you said, where it was going to live. but just the top is heavy!
23:00 katsmeow-afk yeas, you used enough lumber on it!
23:00 furrywolf it's a top, with 6 legs, a shelf, braces, etc... so far I've only built the top. was going to put the top on the legs and build the rest in-place.
23:00 katsmeow-afk now you need my overhead bridge crane to pick it up enough to put legs on it!
23:01 furrywolf the top is two parallel 2x12 fir boards, mounted to two 2x4s, with five short 2x4s between those two...
23:01 furrywolf all wet.
23:01 katsmeow-afk oh, *fir* ?? you don't know "heavy" til you did that with heart pine :-P
23:01 furrywolf fir is cheap here.
23:02 katsmeow-afk heart pine is heavy as steel, and about as easy to put a nail thru
23:02 furrywolf I got two 8ft 2x12s and 8 8ft 2x4s for $30+tax.
23:03 furrywolf so far I've already used close to a pound of screws, and aren't done with the top. :)
23:03 katsmeow-afk what happens when those 2x12's dry and warp?
23:04 furrywolf that's why they're screwed to the 2x4s. :)
23:04 katsmeow-afk ok
23:04 furrywolf they're on a frame like...
23:04 furrywolf _____
23:04 furrywolf |||||
23:04 furrywolf """""
23:05 furrywolf built out of 2x4s, used tall-ways.
23:05 katsmeow-afk hmm, can't tell
23:05 furrywolf like a ladder
23:05 furrywolf two rails, with rungs between them.
23:06 furrywolf built out of 2x4s
23:06 tsmeow-afk didn't question your work desk building
23:07 furrywolf I like a work bench to be solid... you need to be able to beat things with large hammers, bolt a big vise to it, file things without the whole desk shaking, etc.
23:08 furrywolf I'll probably sand the top and varnish it, so it at least won't look TOO out of place in my living room. :)
23:08 katsmeow-afk i agree, i fasten mine to the wall, and to the floor
23:08 furrywolf (yes, it's going to be living room furniture)
23:09 katsmeow-afk trick to not splintering the legs is to drill a 3/16 hole from the center of the end ofleg diagonally to where you'll be putting the screw into the leg, this way you know the screw will exit the center of the leg too
23:09 furrywolf too much work.
23:10 katsmeow-afk worth it
23:10 furrywolf I just run 3.5" deck screws in to the thick side, and 2.5" ones into the thin side...
23:10 furrywolf the whole top is help together with 3.5" deck screws too. the shiny ones with torx heads. :)
23:10 katsmeow-afk i use deck screws too, but i have had the legs split, so i predrill
23:10 furrywolf held
23:11 furrywolf I love the torx head screws... the only ones that don't strip when you run them into wet wood.
23:12 katsmeow-afk use a Fearson or Pozidrive
23:14 furrywolf Pozidriv and Frearson aren't much better than standard phillips.
23:14 furrywolf and good luck finding screws or tips that actually remotely conform to any spec.
23:15 orlok Robertson head!
23:15 katsmeow-afk i got pozi drivers, they tend to not cam out even on 3" 3.5" deck screws
23:15 furrywolf orlok: genuine robertson works well. "square" as sold as us hardware stores does not.
23:16 katsmeow-afk square is common in mobile home places tho
23:17 furrywolf I got some great screws the other day... combination heads. phillips, square, and slotted. Guess how much metal is left? they strip if you even look at them wrong, much less try putting them into something.
23:18 ace4016 must be pewter screws
23:18 ace4016 :P
23:20 katsmeow-afk aluminum?
23:20 furrywolf just piss-poor design and construction.
23:21 furrywolf nothing actually fits them, although robertson/square works the best of the three, only stripping most of the time instead of all of the time.
23:24 furrywolf actually, the last box I got was only square+phillips, not all three.
23:24 furrywolf they still suck just as badly.
23:25 katsmeow-afk is the band's name "vanity fare" or "vanity faire"?
23:26 rrywolf takes some gratuitous macro ph
23:26 furrywolf I don't know if my connection is working well enough to upload them, but I'll give it a try.
23:28 katsmeow-afk fare
23:29 furrywolf http://fw.bushytails.net/screwheads01.jpg
23:30 furrywolf left: I've never stripped one of these. right: strips 90% of the time with phillips, 50% of the time with square. and those are only 1 3/4" screws. I can't even imaging what longer ones are like...
23:31 furrywolf with phillips, there's virtually no metal to actually drive the screw, especially when you consider that the bit is tapered, while the screw isn't, so you're only driving with the very top corners, not the whole depth.
23:32 furrywolf s/imaging/imagine
23:32 katsmeow-afk i've never seen the square sided hole on the right
23:33 furrywolf it's a combination head, able to be driven with either phillips or square.
23:33 furrywolf in reality, it works with neither.
23:33 furrywolf since the cross has straight sides, instead of the proper taper for phillips, and the middle is missing, only the outside top corners drive, and it strips _instantly_.
23:33 katsmeow-afk looks like aFrench Rescess head
23:34 furrywolf they're 1 3/4" screws, and I've had them strip less than halfway into wood.
23:34 furrywolf the box claims phillips and square. :)
23:34 katsmeow-afk with a normal bit, i can see they would, you need this : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/BNAE_driver_bit.jpg
23:36 furrywolf it's just a compromise... there's no useful way to make a combination phillips/square head.
23:36 katsmeow-afk http://www.uniflip.com/catalogs2/11102/19110/pub/html/9.html <<== top of page 7
23:36 furrywolf it has to have straight sides, or the robertson/square driver won't fit.
23:36 furrywolf thus it can't be a proper phillips.
23:36 katsmeow-afk phillips is only one of severl types of crosshead
23:37 furrywolf they were the cheapest screws at the hardware store I was at. I'll never buy them again.
23:37 katsmeow-afk and phillips was designe to screw up
23:37 furrywolf they say phillips on the box, not any other design. :P
23:38 furrywolf the torx head ones are great. they never strip, never cam out, and will drive with 15-ish degrees of misalignment with no problems at all.
23:40 katsmeow-afk hmm, this page has a "tool icon" ? what's that? ==>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_Fare
23:41 katsmeow-afk not showing in FF, only IE
23:41 furrywolf if one seizes into wood, or you drive another screw into the side of it or something, the screws snap before the head strips.
23:41 furrywolf dunno, I ignore all links with https, because https doesn't like bad connections.
23:42 katsmeow-afk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_Fare
23:43 furrywolf not one of my favorite bands...
23:43 tsmeow-afk give
23:44 rrywolf has no clue what tool icon kat is talking
23:44 furrywolf about
23:44 katsmeow-afk on the right, mid page, fixed position, apparently showing because of css layout
23:45 furrywolf nothing like that for me.
23:46 katsmeow-afk what browser?
23:46 furrywolf ff3.something
23:46 katsmeow-afk [23:30] <katsmeow-afk> not showing in FF, only IE
23:46 rrywolf doesn't have
23:49 tsmeow-afk asks in #wikipedia , and as usual, no one talks in t
23:49 rrywolf used to edit wikipedia, then decided the administration had grown way to corrupt to be worth dealing with, and l
23:50 furrywolf blah, weather forecast is for rain starting again monday.
23:51 furrywolf heh, there's supposed to be a solar eclipse sunday. forecast: clouds.
23:55 katsmeow-afk yeas
23:55 katsmeow-afk [04:22] <katsmeow-afk> http://phys.org/news/2012-05-china-japan-witness-solar-eclipse.html
23:56 furrywolf it's supposed to pass directly over here sunday evening, but there's a good chance no one will get to see it.
23:56 furrywolf blah, my connection is beginning to really suck.
23:56 tsmeow-afk
23:57 furrywolf it's been working well the last few days, but now is dieing again.
23:57 katsmeow-afk [furrywolf PING reply]: 1 sec
23:57 furrywolf yeah, it's not bad enough to kill irc yet, but trying to load web pages is proving futile.
23:57 furrywolf irc keeps working well after http dies... small, infrequent packets.
23:59 tsmeow-afk