#robotics Logs
Apr 21 2012
#robotics Calendar
10:23 ace4016 trying to manually deweed a large backyard is both tiresome and nearly impossible...i'm buying herbicides >:(
10:38 rue_house theBear, re power and signal for the camera "POE"
10:38 Tom_L rue did you let your website expire?
10:38 Tom_L the ruemore dot com
10:38 Tom_L or whatever it was
10:40 Steffanx .org is still alive Tom_L
10:41 rue_house they auto-renewed it
10:41 rue_house so whatever
10:41 theBear rue_house, power side is fine, it's the multi-joined unshielded pair doing video that picks up noise
10:41 rue_house but its twisted :)
10:41 Tom_L rue_house what about the bandwidth?
10:41 Tom_L or dl limits
10:41 rue_house hmm dont remember
10:42 rue_house more than a 10m site from me would ever generate
10:45 delinquentme Tom_L, you've got lots of things you need to serve up as downloads?
10:45 Tom_L so rue_house what we gonna do today?
10:46 Tom_L no
10:46 delinquentme PS if you guys have web questions feel free to bug me about it
10:49 delinquentme CIB is?
10:56 theBear rue_house, twisted is fine for power, so long as you got an even number of twists, otherwise the voltage is backwards <grin>
10:56 rue_house hmm well there is the robotic arm
10:56 rue_house but the other kid(s) havn't shown up in so long I cant remembner what their next thing is
10:57 rue_house theBear, :)
10:58 rue_house theBear, you can make twisted wire by taking untwisted wire, cutting it into even lengths, and reversing two of the wires on even spacing, right?
11:00 theBear you lacking sleep again buddy ? i'm just looking for a quick hackish way to improve that noise problem (rolling diagonal lines) i'm pretty sure i showed you an example of last week
11:02 theBear speaking of twisted, long ago i took over the tradition of making 'curly wurlies' from my pre-decessor at my first 'real' repair job... for example a little sturdy 9v batt connector and a dc jack with the 9v wires nice and curled .... cute little things, 9/10 of them were 'problem solvers', like the one i just described was good if yer on stage and a guitar pedal batt goes flat, you don't have time to unscrew the bottom and replace the battery, s
11:02 theBear o you just pop the 9v curly wurly in the dc jack and keep playing.. the secret is an appropriate center/winding piece and JUST the right amount of heat from a heatgun...
11:05 theBear oh, maybe i misled you and you ARE making sense.. i already got a run of cat5 doing a single ethernet connection right around the outside of the flat, right near where i need connections for this new cam.... so naturally i wired it straight up, but basically the twisted pairs are already there, and i don't think i got (even with dodgy joins) enough coax to cover it
11:08 theBear tobbor old chap ! good to see you
11:10 rue_house send the camera dc
11:11 theBear i am sending it dc, even if i use the worlds most regulated supply powered from a socket RIGHT NEXT to the cam, turn off all the power in my place except that which runs the server/cam machines right at the end of that line, ONLY using the cat5 as a single pair of composite vid, i STILL get the noise, it's GOTTA be lack-of-shield noise
11:12 Tom_itx rue_house you gonna have a full shop today?
11:12 theBear other way around, dc down the cat5, cam 'straight' into the pc/vid input it's rock solid and whisper quiet
11:12 rue_house theBear, did you take the ground there and back on seperate wires?
11:13 rue_house aka blue/white power to the camera and white/orange vid&ground back from camera?
11:13 theBear i've tried losing the psu gnd, and tried with a fully isolated 'local' wallwart/psu , but basically the vid (gnd and signal) have ALWAYS gone down a single pair inside the cat5
11:14 theBear yeah, one pair for power, one for cam, no splitting-pairs in my world
11:14 rue_house not what I mean
11:14 rue_house ok
11:14 katsmeow-afk run separate signal gnds back to the reciever end, lift the gnd on the signals at the reciever end so whatever is recieving the signal is balanced inputs
11:14 rue_house theBear, does the line run by any flourescent lighs or transformers?
11:14 theBear errr, lifting the cable gnd does that ?
11:15 rue_house how long IS the line?
11:15 katsmeow-afk os you have pwr+gnd feeding out to remote camera, then coming back you have vid+gnd and snd+gnd , then recieve the vid+gnd BALANCED, and the snd+gnd BALANANCED, do not tie the gnds together
11:15 theBear rue_house, like i said, i killed EVERYTHIGN electrical anywhere near it, not even a fridge running the last week, no fluros outside of hifreq cfls, but they make no difference, and i can't think of anything the neighbor has around that side of his loungeroom that would be a problem
11:16 rue_house katsmeow-afk, I think the power is an isolated wall wart
11:16 theBear rue_house, ummm, maybe err, 25-30meters with umm, 3 rj45 connectors between the power/vid input and the cam end
11:16 katsmeow-afk still use sepatrate gnd, and recieven balanced
11:16 rue_house hahah 30m, well ok
11:17 theBear katsmeow-afk, erm, wouldn't i have effectively done that running the cam off an isolated supply and just having the gnd/vid going on a cat5 pair ?
11:17 katsmeow-afk tying the gnds back togther can cause one signal to modulate the other, and it changes individual wire impedances as far as picking up noise is concerned
11:17 katsmeow-afk no
11:17 rue_house I'v done about 50' with only minor loss
11:17 theBear thing that makes me persist, apart from necessity, is that apart from that noise, it's unbelievably good, i've seen coax without joins behave worse... no ghosts, no echos, decent contrast/edges, just this stupid noise
11:18 katsmeow-afk think of it like using a common gnd on stage for a mic and a guitar pickup
11:18 rue_house theBear, isn't your mic cable 50 ohms?
11:18 katsmeow-afk coax is ot balanced either, unless it's twinax
11:18 rue_house theBear, cat6a :) there is what you need :)
11:19 theBear katsmeow-afk, yeah, but what i'm saying is, completely 'floating' mains transformer, bridge, caps -> cam, cam pcb has common gnd between power and signal, which at this stage is still floating, if i run the vid out and cam/pcb ground down a single pair of cat5, haven't i already done/tried what you describe ?
11:19 theBear rue_house, mic cable is 'unrated' at freqs where impedance becomes any kind of an issue, it's basically about solid shielding and nice solid conductors
11:19 katsmeow-afk i am not talking pwrline noice int hedc power, i am talking the signal lines being antennas
11:19 theBear katsmeow-afk, yeah, and i'm just trying to be sure i understand your recommendation
11:20 rue_house in theroy, the video signal line comming back is balanced twisted pair
11:21 katsmeow-afk the beauty is twisted pair is that they *can* be equal impedance and identical in noise pickup, in common mode mode, so it's trival to remove that noise by keeping them balanced with fully balanced inputs
11:21 theBear does it still 'cancel' with a single ended input at the pc/video in end tho ?
11:21 katsmeow-afk no
11:22 theBear if you can tell me how to make some little tiny baluns, from maybe dead netcard transformers, or old 75/300r tv aerial adapters, or any old random ferrite i got around go for it, otherwise, that is kinda a dead end
11:22 katsmeow-afk no more than the diff twen a 1/4 phone jack vs a xlr jack on your mic line at the back of the mixer
11:22 katsmeow-afk get some baluns on ebay for 50 cents
11:22 theBear see, ebay, money on card, time, all of this i do not have
11:23 katsmeow-afk get one balun, reverse engineer it?
11:24 katsmeow-afk google how to make video balun?
11:24 theBear tomorrow assuming my damned nose/head get better, i go to the country, indefinately, with little if any chance to visit here anytime inside of a couple months, and i'd kinda like this to be slightly improved before i go
11:24 theBear balun and how to kinda terms are WAY too common on the google machine i learned last time, but what the heck, a quick look
11:25 katsmeow-afk i got 2 results
11:25 katsmeow-afk http://www.google.com/search?q=%22how+to+wind+balun%22
11:27 katsmeow-afk ok, not so useful
11:28 tsmeow-afk is just waking up, that's my whole ex
11:28 rue_house !assist images/foo.png
11:28 tobbor Possibly http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/images/foo.png
11:28 rue_house shouldn't that work?
11:29 theBear relax, i can google, i got more this time than last time, funny what looks unimportant on a first glance can be handy next round
11:29 rue_house maybe the winding capacitance of the wall wart is causing the issue, try a electrolytic cap between the wall ward - and the returning video -
11:29 katsmeow-afk rue, nope, you gnd'd the hot video line
11:29 rue_house hah
11:30 rue_house no there are extra twists in the lighting bolt :)
11:30 katsmeow-afk if there is a "gnd" on the input, it's not balanced, and can pick up noise from the aether
11:31 rue_house but it sets the ground for the whole thing
11:31 rue_house cause there is no other point where the system is grounded
11:31 katsmeow-afk yeas, so run a separate gnd for the whole thing
11:31 rue_house so your saying if he makes the green pair gnd/gnd and runs it out to the camera and hooks it to ground there?
11:32 rue_house theBear, ?
11:32 katsmeow-afk if the long run is acting like an antenna for a signal, your only solution for twisted pair is make sure the gnd *for_that_signal* is pickingup the same noise, then simply remove it with bal input
11:32 rue_house the power and the monitor are beside each other
11:33 rue_house theBear, ?
11:33 e_house hopes theBear isn't still downloading the im
11:34 katsmeow-afk if the signal or it's gnd (return wire) is gnded, then it's not the same as the other wire in that twisted pair anymore
11:34 rue_house uh ho I think I just made a relation between intelligence and sociability
11:35 katsmeow-afk that humans don't want intelligent bots? i been telling you that
11:35 rue_house huh, good point that fits right into the data
11:35 rue_house I think
11:36 katsmeow-afk you cannot discuss it without appearing tobe intelligent, and therefore..........
11:36 rue_house katsmeow-afk, the data indicates that if the bot is really stupid (which takes a lot of work) that it would be accepted even if its overly social
11:37 rue_house I dont get that
11:37 katsmeow-afk easy: the stupid bot makes entertainment, and doesn't point out the humans are stupid
11:37 rue_house I have to go clean up the shop
11:38 rue_house the core data comes from observing people with mental deficiencies
11:38 rue_house had to do SOMETHING while n the bus in vancouver....
11:39 rue_house bubes/trains/ferries
11:39 katsmeow-afk simpletons do not threaten your job, they don't threaten taking your significant other, they cannot prove you are wrong in any way, etc
11:40 katsmeow-afk and humans can laugh at their errors and misfortune, which i tend to find disturbing
11:40 rue_house no I'm talking ext4reme case, mentally deficient, tend to be overly social
11:41 tsmeow-afk admits defeat and gives up til rue can give more det
11:42 rue_house I need to go clear up the shop for robotics, biab
11:42 katsmeow-afk k
11:46 katsmeow-afk if you are saying that the simpletons are inherently more social in acceptable ways, and this is more acceptable vs being intelligent, i am saying you are correct, and the cause of the simplton being more social is they just have no clue about negative ramifications of their behavior, and they have no thoughts of their own to otherwise occupy their time
11:47 katsmeow-afk they see office chitchat, meaningless pleasantries, and understand that is the entire point of being human
11:48 rue_shop no I'm just saying they would go up to freddy cougar and start talking just as readily as they would anyone else
11:48 katsmeow-afk right, not knowing the negative ramifications of their behavior
11:49 rue_shop I'm thinking its a factor in why stupid people are outbreeding smart ones
11:49 katsmeow-afk whether it's negative to them (Freddie cuts their head off) or negative to someone else (whois trying to get a week of work done before lunch)
11:51 rue_shop the week started well, I finished building the overload board (1 of 6) for buddy, but it must have gone wrong cause the simple process of calibrating it hasn't been done
11:51 katsmeow-afk quite possibly,, after all, it takes no intelligence to breed, and hospitals do all the delivery work, human services feed the kids, schools babysit the kids, there's no way to stop the system
11:52 katsmeow-afk if the parents were responcible for allt he work in the kid staying alive, the stupid people breeding wouldn't be a problem, it would be a make-work process for the undertakers
11:52 katsmeow-afk that sounds cold, i was just stating the cold facts
11:53 m_itx shi
11:53 katsmeow-afk i was not assigning emotions or morality in allowing the kids to die because the parents cannot tend them
11:54 katsmeow-afk but ,, yeas, it's like i say : the total IQ points stay the same as the population increases
11:55 Tom_itx is a 5/8" center hub big enough in the fr4??
11:55 katsmeow-afk it's like money, for everyone to have the same number of dollars when the population doubles, you print twice as much moeny, making it worth half as much
11:56 theBear rue_house, sorry, trawling for balun plans/maths... trust me, the power isn't an issue, it's 100% lack of shielding and/or balancing
11:56 katsmeow-afk should be, you can prolly (i dunno) put 6 4-40 or 4 6-32 bolts around it into the hub?
11:56 theBear wow, you made the gimp look as shitty as paintbrush rue !
11:57 theBear i think i'm just gonna grab the first chunk of ferrite that comes to hand and experiment with some half-balun/half-common-mode-choke kinda things
11:57 katsmeow-afk Tom, the 4 6-32 are as fine with me as the 6 4-40 , tapping 4 holes is easier than tapping 6 holes
11:58 katsmeow-afk whichever works for the hub you make
11:58 katsmeow-afk bear, look at olde dialup modems for small ferrite rings
11:59 katsmeow-afk maybe, some olde video cards have some
11:59 theBear mmk, pretty sure i got a couple handy from ex-coax/split300 tv baluns and various ex-psu's
12:01 katsmeow-afk umm, keep in mind antenna baluns are made for vhf/uhf rf, and not dc-5mhz baseband video, but what the heck, they may work fine as is
12:02 rue_shop theBear, nono, I'm saying, on the monitor/wallwart end, put a capacitor between the ground out and the video return ground
12:02 rue_shop electrolytic between ground and ground
12:03 rue_shop I think it'll do 2 things, first, reduce the impedence of the ground path, second SEGFAULT
12:05 katsmeow-afk <blink>
12:05 theBear katsmeow-afk, i just meant for the ferrite, those things got wire finer than my hair anyway, i can't deal with that at this time of night :)
12:05 tsmeow-afk
12:05 theBear err, yeah, <blink>
12:06 theBear i'm happy to spend my excessive spare time hand-rewiring speaker coils and frankensteining/fixing 40mm bldc insides, but nah, that supercheap rf wire is WAAAAY too small
12:07 katsmeow-afk you can use bigger wire, if it will fit into the iron
12:09 tsmeow-afk considers making some foodstuff to eat for breakfast,, or l
12:09 Tom_itx brunch
12:09 Tom_itx brupper?
12:10 katsmeow-afk being it's noon, i can skip breakfast, i spose
12:17 theBear katsmeow-afk, yeah, and the common-mode thing should seriously lower the length/impedance(well dc resistance) demands
12:18 theBear wonder if i got a half-cat5 cable already wired up, i can find some nice powdered ferrite thingy and just experiment while watching the logs (for sync errors etc) and of course using my sexy fone to show me in realtime what is happening at the other end :)
12:20 katsmeow-afk hacking is so much fun
12:20 katsmeow-afk i need foods, afk
12:21 sw0rdfish :o
12:21 sw0rdfish just had some big phat azz pizza slices :D
12:23 theBear yeah, when you got the time to "dick about" (never liked the term, but my first 'proper' electronic/repair mentor used it a lot, and sometimes it fits) with stuff, it can be fun and rewarding, so long as you got just enough of the background theory in yer head to make it potentially successful
14:50 delinquentme potentiometers ... the "negative reference rail" should be ground
14:50 delinquentme positive ref rail ... should be whatever the control voltage for the MC is ... correct?
14:51 theBear umm, context ?
14:52 rue_house it depends if the adc uses thta same rail as a reference
14:52 delinquentme i've got a firgelli linear actuator which apparently can use some sort of pot feedback for its positioning
14:52 rue_house if the adc uses a deperate 1.2V supply as a ref, than thats what your positive reference should be
14:52 delinquentme however im getting a solid 0 for both the extended position and the contracted position
14:53 rue_house delinquentme, shouw us how you wired it
14:56 delinquentme http://www.firgelli.com/Uploads/L16_datasheet.pdf << the wiring colors are right under the "Current curves" and black is ground : http://i.imgur.com/qAIOV.jpg
14:57 delinquentme left most red on the MC is 5v
14:57 delinquentme and the right red is the analog read pin
15:03 delinquentme and I have verified that I do infact have the P version which has a potentiometer on it
15:04 rue_house no I need the whole picture, actuator and everything
15:09 delinquentme rue_house, http://i.imgur.com/yyNYT.jpg
15:10 rue_house ok so, the 3 wires are + - and control signal to the motor?
15:12 rue_house ah no I see
15:12 delinquentme yellow is positive ref rail
15:12 delinquentme orange is the negative ref rail
15:12 rue_house now can I see a datasheet for the shield your using
15:12 delinquentme and purple is the "wiper" rail
15:12 rue_house I got it
15:12 rue_house now can I see a datasheet for the shield your using
15:12 rue_house ?
15:13 delinquentme http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/ArduinoEthernetShieldV3.jpg
15:13 delinquentme lemme see if i can find an actual datasheet
15:14 rue_house so your using 3.3V, GND, and A2?
15:14 delinquentme correct
15:15 rue_house ok show us the codez
15:15 delinquentme might have to reboot here in a sec
15:16 rue_house and I might have to go lay on the lawn
15:17 delinquentme http://pastie.org/3830035
15:17 delinquentme ok rebooting
15:17 rue_house eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasy answer
15:18 rue_house your code for reading th analog power is commented out
15:18 rue_house power/port
15:18 rue_house do they really call the main function in arduino loop?
15:18 rue_house funny
15:20 delinquentme_ ehh new issue
15:20 delinquentme_ AVR dude or the programmer is timing out on upload
15:21 rue_house unplug the pot and I bet it suddenly works great
15:21 rue_house na, your wired right
15:22 rue_house do you have a multimeter?
15:22 delinquentme_ i do
15:23 delinquentme_ ok uploads are now working
15:23 rue_house whats the votlage from ground to the pot right now?
15:23 rue_house to the wiper, from ground
15:25 delinquentme_ 1.98
15:25 delinquentme_ ooooo!
15:25 delinquentme_ that works
15:25 rue_house now uncommant the adc part of your code, (leave the remapping commented out) and it shoudl work
15:26 delinquentme_ YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSsss
15:27 rue_house I'm gonna go check on the potatoes
15:36 delinquentme_ if i apply a steady voltage to a linear actuator ... should it steadily move the actuator?
15:37 delinquentme_ because im getting a kind of cadence within the movement of the actuator
15:37 delinquentme_ offhand this might mean that im getting ups and downs in the voltage ?
15:37 delinquentme_ so I should put some caps into the equation
15:43 binarylegit I'm a software engineer, trying to play more with electronics because its more fun, can anyone suggest a good book for an electrical engineering 101 type thing?
15:43 theBear the Art of Electronics comes highly recommended, and pretty sure there's a couple scanned versions online if yuo don't need a 'real book'
15:44 theBear way way back when i was getting started, and even now i guess, i'm quite fond of Forest Mims series of various books and notebooks
15:44 theBear but any 'ALL the basics of electronics' kinda book will be very similar to any other in approach/information covered
15:45 binarylegit cool thanks
15:46 theBear :)
16:19 delinquentme_ thoughts on how to compensate for on paper pot values of 0-1023 ... but in testing those values are 0 - 888
16:35 katsmeow-afk multiply by 1.152027027027027027027027027027 ,, it's called "scaling"
16:36 katsmeow-afk not "scalene", which is a different word
16:41 theBear lol
16:43 katsmeow-afk btw, if your vref on the adc is wrong, the readouts will be wrong too
16:43 katsmeow-afk if you have a Vref input, you can fake the scaling factor by tweaking Vref till the 888 reads as 1023
17:12 rue_house he left?
17:12 Tom_itx who did?
17:12 rue_house hsi ref is 3.3V
17:12 rue_house del
17:13 rue_house we did some hardware cleanup on the arm, its loking pretty good
17:13 Tom_itx need pics
17:14 rue_house agreed
18:03 rue_house reconfigured my kernel, need to reboot
19:45 katsmeow-afk [16:09] <delinquentme_> thoughts on how to compensate for on paper pot values of 0-1023 ... but in testing those values are 0 - 888
19:45 katsmeow-afk [16:25] <katsmeow-afk> multiply by 1.152027027027027027027027027027 ,, it's called "scaling"
19:45 katsmeow-afk [16:26] <katsmeow-afk> not "scalene", which is a different word
19:46 katsmeow-afk [16:33] <katsmeow-afk> btw, if your vref on the adc is wrong, the readouts will be wrong too
19:46 katsmeow-afk [16:34] <katsmeow-afk> if you have a Vref input, you can fake the scaling factor by tweaking Vref till the 888 reads as 1023
19:47 katsmeow-afk it's one reason there are Vref inputs on adc
19:47 delinquentme_ movment stuff has a number of other vars you just dont consider :D
19:48 katsmeow-afk i don't?
19:48 katsmeow-afk i addressed the issue youpesented, i didn't address any not presented
19:48 delinquentme_ like the minimum duty cycle needed to start movement isnt the same as the minimum measurement for that actuator?
19:48 delinquentme_ hahah!
19:48 delinquentme_ youre very literal
19:48 katsmeow-afk that's called sticktion
19:48 katsmeow-afk stiction
19:49 katsmeow-afk it's why the BigDog robot is always hopping
19:49 katsmeow-afk hydraulics have huge stiction problems
19:51 delinquentme_ ohhh
19:51 delinquentme_ interesting
19:54 delinquentme_ so its basically overcoming something analgous to normal force
19:55 katsmeow-afk huh?
19:55 katsmeow-afk you didn't look up the word?
20:50 delinquentme_ katsmeow-afk, i did =]
20:53 delinquentme_ katsmeow-afk, Vref
20:54 delinquentme_ also I've got a number of options for how to drive this input ... is PWM fairly reliable?
20:56 delinquentme_ the current issue is that I need the positions to be repeatable
21:05 rue_shop delinquentme_, repeatability problems?
21:07 Tom_itx rue_shop pics!!
21:08 delinquentme_ lemme make a video
21:08 rue_shop katsmeow-afk, Tom_itx
21:08 rue_shop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BCgl2uumlI
21:08 rue_shop no
21:08 rue_shop http://toolman.com.au/images/press20h.jpg
21:08 rue_shop I dont know what that youtube link is!
21:08 rue_shop anyhow
21:08 rue_shop should I make a press like that or
21:09 rue_shop http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/281319610/30T_Hydraulic_Shop_Press.jpg
21:09 rue_shop that?
21:09 rue_shop http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31UPMFrxCKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
21:09 rue_shop ?
21:09 Tom_itx whichever is easiest
21:10 Tom_itx i have a handpump for a ram for one of those
21:10 Tom_itx side mount to the press
21:11 Tom_itx was replaced by an electric pum
21:11 Tom_itx p
21:16 rue_shop hmm where am I gonna find springs
21:17 Tom_itx garage door springs
21:17 rue_shop should I bother witha pin on it?
21:17 rue_shop I think flat is better
21:17 Tom_itx ours didn't have one
21:18 Tom_itx just depends on your needs
21:18 rue_shop I neede a project for tonight
21:18 Tom_itx i have 2 but not sure if i want to do eitehr
21:18 Tom_itx one is more relaxing than the other
21:19 Tom_itx making ribbon cables or mounting my 3 transformers to a U channel aluminum
21:19 Tom_itx would it be ok to mount the hbridge pack to the same aluminum chassis as a heatsink?
21:19 rue_shop are the tabs isolated?
21:20 Tom_itx supposed to be
21:20 rue_shop then sure
21:20 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/cnc/psu1.jpg
21:20 Tom_itx i got 3 like the one on the right
21:21 Tom_itx 25A iirc
21:21 Tom_itx do you think 3 of those caps per transformer will clean the DC well enough?
21:21 Tom_itx 2200uf iirc
21:21 delinquentme_ oiy so yeah its a 48 mb video lol
21:21 Tom_itx ea
21:22 delinquentme_ good old android phone @ 720p res
21:34 delinquentme_ rue_shop, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQEXBhlGzss&context=C4a87b56ADvjVQa1PpcFPozBQzxOmrC2xN7u-06WYrfP9tblro4s0=
21:35 delinquentme_ im not sure if 'cadence' is the right word
21:35 delinquentme_ but its like an inconsistent slowing
21:35 katsmeow-afk if the transformers are mounted to the same channel you use as a heatsink, put thetransformers on standoffs, and don't let them warp the heatsink out from under the electronics
21:36 katsmeow-afk without standoffs, the transformers may heat up the channel way too much
21:36 katsmeow-afk fan(s) help
21:39 rue_shop I think if I just make a standing frame that can take the force of the press I'm ok, dont need return springs and pins
21:40 Tom_itx rue_shop, is 6600 uf enough for a 45v 6A psu?
21:40 Tom_itx is there a formula for that?
21:41 katsmeow-afk rule of thumb: 1000ufd of low esr caps per amp
21:41 katsmeow-afk generic caps need 2000ufd for great smoothing
21:41 katsmeow-afk depends a lot on your headroom
21:48 rue_shop I use 1000uF/amp
21:48 iR0b0t1 Anyone make us of ks0108b-driven displays? On mine I am unable to set the page, nor write coherently within a page - e.x. position 0 is offset from the leftmost side of the screen.
21:48 iR0b0t1 and then other weird shit
21:48 rue_shop iR0b0t1, what? what are they from?
21:49 rue_shop what type are they?
21:49 iR0b0t1 http://www.newhavendisplay.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21_96&products_id=1095
21:49 iR0b0t1 I also seem to be only writing six pixels vertically, instead of 8... (yeah weird memory layout)
21:49 rue_shop hmm, I'm gonna calibrate the overload board for buddy
21:49 rue_shop na never used those displays
21:50 rue_shop havn't pulled any out of anything
21:50 iR0b0t1 motherFUCKER
21:50 rue_shop I suspect they are clocked columns
21:50 0b0t1 checks to see if he disabled the U
21:50 rue_shop iR0b0t1, nice language only pls
21:50 tsmeow-afk does not understand that
21:51 rue_shop the wire wound resistors I have wont work for this, I need a big mean fet
21:52 tsmeow-afk hands rue some NON-fluxcored wirefeed arc
21:52 e_shop finds a big heats
21:52 katsmeow-afk heatsinks and fets make for a pricey resistor
21:53 rue_shop I need to dial in the test current
21:54 rue_shop whats a 7N80?
21:54 katsmeow-afk dunno
21:54 rue_shop me either
21:54 katsmeow-afk 7.0 Amps, 800 Volts N-CHANNEL POWER MOSFET
21:54 rue_shop SWEEET
21:54 rue_shop thanks
21:54 katsmeow-afk <curtsey>
21:54 rue_shop (you beat me to my list)
21:55 katsmeow-afk i can go slower next time, if you want
21:57 rue_shop na
21:57 katsmeow-afk k
21:57 rue_shop I know you know some of these off the top of yer head
21:57 katsmeow-afk a few of them
22:00 rue_shop gate isn't shorted or leaking to drain...
22:01 rue_shop gate isn't shorted or leaking to source...
22:01 rue_shop source isn't shorted or leaking to drain....
22:01 rue_shop SWEET
22:01 rue_shop kat, GDS?
22:01 delinquentme_ but yeah acutuators should accelerate smoothly
22:01 katsmeow-afk arg, it's a fet...........
22:01 delinquentme_ im tempted to think that its some kinda mech problem w the actuator
22:02 katsmeow-afk GDS
22:02 katsmeow-afk left-right, top view
22:03 katsmeow-afk careful, it's Ron is 1.9 ohms
22:06 rue_shop 1.9...
22:06 delinquentme_ ok so if you guys had to program a way to give a single value as to the setting for a PWM ... i think im gonna stick this in a void function
22:06 delinquentme_ ZOMG this is almost like c
22:06 rue_shop I need 1.5A across 24V to be my trip point
22:06 rue_shop delinquentme_, dipstick, that IS C
22:06 katsmeow-afk 16 ohm resistor?
22:07 rue_shop now, got a chart to tell me the approx voltage for 16 ohms?
22:07 rue_shop its a switching fet, I presume its gonna be touchy
22:08 katsmeow-afk it's 24v, you said 24v 1.5a
22:08 Tom_itx mmm
22:09 Tom_itx somebody's tryin to tell me i may only need one transformer
22:09 Tom_itx 3 stepper drivers @4A
22:09 katsmeow-afk 4amps each?
22:09 Tom_itx yes
22:09 katsmeow-afk yo need 12amps if you expect all 3 to be on at any one time
22:10 Tom_itx that's not what they're telling me
22:10 katsmeow-afk really? what do they say 3 x 4 is?
22:11 rue_shop yes, WHAT IS 3x4, some people claim its 42, but nobody is really sure at how they arrive at this
22:11 Tom_itx The easiest factor in choosing a power supply is its current rating, which is based on your motor ratings. A motor control will always draw less than 2/3 of the motor’s rated current when it is parallel (or half-winding) connected and 1/3 of the motor’s rated current when it is series (or full-winding) connected. That is to say, a 6 amp per phase motor will require a 4 amp power supply when wired in parallel and a 2 amp power supply when wired
22:12 rue_shop in the search for this answer, great philosophers have studdied the question "what is 6x7" again, they arrive at strance answers that nobody is really sure how they got
22:12 katsmeow-afk ok, say you are giving it a 30% safety factor, and callit 12amps, that way everyone is happy
22:13 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/cnc/Step%20Motor%20Basics%20Guide.pdf
22:14 katsmeow-afk Tom, if there's any problems, you wanna burn up a psu sized exactly by the minimal formula?
22:14 katsmeow-afk or have a slightly bigger one survive?
22:14 Tom_itx katsmeow-afk, the next issue...
22:14 Tom_itx can i parallel transformers?
22:15 Tom_itx if they're identical
22:15 katsmeow-afk yeas, for same voltage, yeas
22:15 Tom_itx the secondaries
22:15 Tom_itx if the phase is the same
22:15 katsmeow-afk yeas
22:15 katsmeow-afk want a tip?
22:15 Tom_itx so i could combine 2 and get 12A out to one diode pack
22:15 Tom_itx sure?
22:16 katsmeow-afk well, yeas and no, the diode pak will drop 2v, and 12amps? 24watts ,,, i'd put one pack on each transformer, splitting the dissipation
22:16 Tom_itx then combine it after that?
22:16 katsmeow-afk obviously, you don't need to, but i would
22:16 katsmeow-afk yeas
22:16 Tom_itx mkay
22:16 katsmeow-afk combine at the capacitors
22:16 katsmeow-afk you get higher surge rating that way too
22:17 Tom_itx they're also talking about BEMF working on a single supply
22:17 katsmeow-afk back emf? i'd throw it away
22:17 Tom_itx so 3 xfmr 3 diode packs one output
22:17 Tom_itx and that way the phase is irrelevant
22:17 katsmeow-afk if you let the motors run the psu voltage up, eventually you will overvolt something
22:18 katsmeow-afk yeas
22:18 delinquentme_ i knoe ruee! excitedment
22:18 Tom_itx i don't plan to
22:18 Tom_itx this is way overkill for my current setup anyway
22:18 Tom_itx i don't need 18A
22:18 katsmeow-afk yeas, 18amp for steppers is a lot
22:19 katsmeow-afk it will loaf easily at 12amp out
22:19 Tom_itx but they're also telling me i need more on the order of 10000uf per transformer
22:19 Tom_itx so i could get by with 2?
22:20 Tom_itx considering i can pick up both the transformer and all 3 drivers in one hand and struggle to lift this psu by itself
22:20 katsmeow-afk the more caps the better, the MIN as rue and i said, is 1000u/amp of low esr caps, 2000u for generics
22:20 Tom_itx transformer and drivers on my current setup ^^^
22:21 Tom_itx where's a good free place to find such caps?
22:21 katsmeow-afk can you build the case for 3, and just put 2 into it?
22:22 katsmeow-afk 45v? dead audio poweramps
22:22 Tom_itx i don't have a case yet. mounting to a U channel aluminum for now
22:22 katsmeow-afk most have at least 45v rails
22:22 Tom_itx what about car audio amps?
22:22 Tom_itx i can rob one of those
22:22 katsmeow-afk only those with invertors in them and 100w ratings per channel or more
22:22 Tom_itx the v wouldn't be there on those
22:23 Tom_itx 1000 iirc
22:23 Tom_itx i don't remember honestly
22:23 Tom_itx so as long as the DC out is the same on both transformers i should be ok to combine them?
22:24 katsmeow-afk yeas
22:24 katsmeow-afk they are identical transformers, the diodes won't change that
22:24 Tom_itx microwave have any useable caps in it?
22:24 katsmeow-afk not for 45v@6amps
22:25 rue_house yea Im gonna need a 10 turn pot on this
22:25 katsmeow-afk only thing i keep coming up with is 100w per channel sterio power amp
22:25 katsmeow-afk wanna swap a few for the work on the axle/disc/hub?
22:26 Tom_itx no
22:26 katsmeow-afk oh
22:26 Tom_itx that's coming to you anyway
22:26 Tom_itx once i get time and am not exhausted
22:26 katsmeow-afk but if you need the caps, and i don't.....?
22:27 Tom_itx i had a bunch around here if i can find em
22:27 Tom_itx probably tossed them out
22:27 Tom_itx tired of kicking em around
22:27 katsmeow-afk yeas, *finding* them will be the problem here too, being i boxed all that stuff for the move
22:28 katsmeow-afk i have a bigarsed Peavey i picked up at the junk yard, prolly just what you need in there, and i know where it is
22:28 katsmeow-afk chances are really slim i will make the olde Sansui work aain, i happen to remember it's two caps are 45v, but i dunno the ufd rating on them atm
22:29 katsmeow-afk it was a great amp, but all the small transistors had silver plated legs, which all oxidised away, then the legs rusted, so the entire preamp/tone circuits are uselss junk
22:31 Tom_itx i'm gonna go out and check once more
22:32 rue_house according to kats numbers, about a 10 ohm resistor would be a good series safety resistor
22:33 katsmeow-afk i checked the Sansui's caps: 2 at 10,000ufd@50vdc
22:33 katsmeow-afk rue, i didn't do any numbers cept you said to drop 24v at 1.5amps
22:36 tsmeow-afk thinks about how old those caps
22:37 katsmeow-afk 39 years old
22:37 katsmeow-afk at least
22:37 katsmeow-afk i bought that amp new in 1973
22:39 katsmeow-afk http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://oldaudioarchives.com/images/s/Sansui_AU-7700_classicaudio.jpg&imgrefurl=http://oldaudioarchives.com/radio.htm?radio%3D195&h=668&w=800&sz=140&tbnid=S3zyvG2-dcSguM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=115&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSansui%2BAU-7700%2BAmplifier%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=Sansui+AU-7700+Amplifier&docid=0j3iwfl5a52jGM&sa=X&ei=-3qTT6fEGo6M6QH29oigBA&ved=0CFEQ9QEwAw&dur=969
22:39 katsmeow-afk http://oldaudioarchives.com/radio.htm?radio=195
22:40 katsmeow-afk a beauty of an amp
22:40 Tom_itx 50v isn't big enough
22:41 Tom_itx they questioned my 63v ones
22:41 Tom_itx and my box of caps is gone
22:41 katsmeow-afk they are going by the rule of thumb of 50% overvolt
22:41 Tom_itx i dunno
22:41 katsmeow-afk they want you to put in 75v ones, or a lill bigger
22:41 Tom_itx supposedly it's in that pdf i posted
22:41 Tom_itx i haven't read it yet
22:41 Tom_itx well i got these
22:42 Tom_itx and if they pop, it'll be exciting
22:42 katsmeow-afk what are they?
22:42 Tom_itx 2200 uf 63v
22:42 Tom_itx ea
22:42 Tom_itx x 9
22:42 katsmeow-afk use all 9
22:42 Tom_itx i plan to
22:42 Tom_itx but i was gonna use 3 per supply
22:43 Tom_itx but since i'm gonna combine at least 2 i will use them all on one
22:44 katsmeow-afk for future reference : http://www.ebay.com/itm/ELNA-For-Kenwood-75V-4700UF-Audio-Snap-in-Capacitor-/290447928725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a00bad95
22:45 iR0b0t1 My display works :D
22:45 Tom_itx horray
22:45 katsmeow-afk congrats
22:46 Tom_itx would 6 of those be enough?
22:46 katsmeow-afk also a general rule of thumb, Tom, the more caps you use, the lower the overall esr will be , 10x 1000ufd is a lot lower esr than 1x 10,000ufd cap
22:46 Tom_itx i know
22:46 katsmeow-afk 6 would be a bare minimum
22:46 Tom_itx that's one reason i got so many of these
22:47 katsmeow-afk if they are high esr, 6 won't be enough
22:47 Tom_itx i have no specs on these
22:47 katsmeow-afk you'll have a lot of ripple, it's up to you if your switcher /motor driver can handle ripple
22:48 katsmeow-afk also, the more ripple, the hotter the caps will be
22:48 katsmeow-afk ri[pple = current in and out of the caps
22:48 Tom_itx caused by?
22:48 Tom_itx not enough capacitance?
22:48 katsmeow-afk yeas
22:48 Tom_itx mmm
22:48 Tom_itx ok
22:49 Tom_itx well i'm looking at the current puny setup and wondering that this is about 4x overkill already
22:49 Tom_itx but it's only a 2.5A driver setup iirc
22:49 Tom_itx ( i'm replacing my current psu and driver setup for a beefier one )
22:50 katsmeow-afk wow, this is a good buy, but overkill for your project: qty 6 of 9000u 75v Cornell Dubiliers ; $35 , free s&h
22:50 katsmeow-afk ESR:38.6mohm
22:50 katsmeow-afk those people make great capacitors
22:51 katsmeow-afk with 6amps of ripple, the voltage ripple will be only 1/4 volt, with just one of those
22:52 katsmeow-afk that's what i mean by "low esr"
22:52 katsmeow-afk http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cornell-Dubilier-DCMC902U075AB2B-Capacitor-9000UF-75V-6-/150590471632?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230fe43dd0
22:53 katsmeow-afk well, 1/2 volt, sorry
22:53 katsmeow-afk i got excited
22:54 rue_shop oops
22:54 rue_shop looks like I got the logic backwards
22:54 rue_shop instead of tripping out when the current goes to high
22:54 rue_shop it trips out of the current is too low
22:54 rue_shop its an unbreaker
22:55 rue_shop 'you may overload but you may not underload or you will be switched off'
22:55 katsmeow-afk cool, so if the lights burn out, the power gets switched off!
22:56 rue_shop yes
22:57 katsmeow-afk i once used a massive MJ11015 (or 16?), as a overcurrent trip, i switched it with an rf power transistor driven by 74F ttl , the current sense opamp was also a 45Mhz chip, this things didn't let any overload power go by it
22:58 katsmeow-afk i could put a screw driver across it, and you'd haveto turn the room lights off to see any spark
22:59 Tom_itx what's a good method to drain the caps on power down?
22:59 katsmeow-afk with the overcurrent protection turned off, it would vaporise instantly 3/16 off the end of the screwdriver
22:59 katsmeow-afk resistor
22:59 Tom_itx it would have to be a hefty one wouldn't it?
23:00 katsmeow-afk if you wanna drain them real fast, a relay with a low value resistor
23:00 Tom_itx and you would want it on a relay maybe?
23:00 katsmeow-afk no
23:00 katsmeow-afk a couple milliamps will drain the caps in 5 minutes, easily
23:01 katsmeow-afk yeas, there is a formula for that, i never used it, because electrolytics are +75% tolerance
23:01 delinquentme_ Do linear actuators need to be ordered specifically for compression or extension?
23:01 katsmeow-afk delinquentme_, you need some good books, and time to read them
23:02 katsmeow-afk Tom, try a 1K 5w resistor, that should be easy to find
23:02 delinquentme_ just a yes or no :D
23:02 delinquentme_ and some more power for this actuator
23:02 katsmeow-afk 45ma, 2w dissipated
23:02 katsmeow-afk or anything up to 5k
23:03 katsmeow-afk del, for ANYTHING, you order by the specs you need it to be
23:04 delinquentme_ but that seems silly
23:04 delinquentme_ why you ask?
23:04 delinquentme_ well there wasn't a model option for compression vrs extension
23:04 katsmeow-afk hell, i didn't ask, you did
23:04 katsmeow-afk i don't even know what you mean by " compression vrs extension"
23:05 delinquentme_ nono i mean in the "begging the question " kind of way
23:05 tsmeow-afk looks
23:05 delinquentme_ so in compression forces compress the actuator >> =====o <<
23:05 katsmeow-afk how kanz phrase that remark,,,,, why is it you ask such ,,, i firget
23:06 delinquentme_ where the =====o is an actuator
23:06 rrywolf curls up next to katsmeow-afk and y
23:06 delinquentme_ << ====o >> extension
23:06 delinquentme_ this actuator just has a funny stroke
23:07 katsmeow-afk a 5 ton ram can extend with 5 tons of force, a 5 ton pull ram can pull with 5 tons of force, i don't understand the question
23:07 furrywolf a 5 ton ram can extend with 5 tons of force, and pull with 2 tons. :)
23:07 delinquentme_ so if im pulling on the ends of the linear actuator right?
23:08 rrywolf missed the start of the conversa
23:08 katsmeow-afk furry, this conversation runs in a straiht line the same way all the ants in an anthill run in str8 lines
23:10 delinquentme_ TLDR: compression is forces pushing towards each other in a linear fashion
23:10 delinquentme_ extension is pulling away from each other
23:10 delinquentme_ the actuator has a nice smooth operation stroke all the way down in compression
23:10 delinquentme_ not so when under extension forces
23:12 katsmeow-afk why not?
23:12 katsmeow-afk is it sucking air bubbles?
23:12 Tom_itx ok i was wrong, it's 37.4 vac no load
23:12 Tom_itx on the transformer output
23:13 katsmeow-afk that's 53vdc peak
23:13 delinquentme_ katsmeow-afk, im not really sure :D
23:13 delinquentme_ its kind of a minor annoyance
23:13 Tom_itx ok so my caps may not be big enough
23:13 katsmeow-afk yeas, you need at least 63v caps, 75v to last 20 yrs
23:13 delinquentme_ and its a $90 dollar actuator so what can I expect
23:13 delinquentme_ ok brb!
23:13 Tom_itx are 63v accepable?
23:14 katsmeow-afk 63 may not last 10 yrs before they ope or sort
23:14 Tom_itx mkay
23:14 katsmeow-afk open or short
23:14 Tom_itx i may not last that long
23:14 katsmeow-afk 75 should last 20 yrs
23:14 Tom_itx not sure i wanna last that long
23:14 katsmeow-afk ok
23:14 Tom_itx the first 20 were ok
23:14 Tom_itx 2nd 20 so so
23:15 katsmeow-afk my 3rd 20 has not been good at all
23:15 katsmeow-afk the 2nd 20 was exciting, entertaining, varied, etc
23:15 Tom_itx it's been a bumpy ride
23:16 rue_shop looks like I got the lm393 inputs backwards somewhere
23:17 katsmeow-afk i was really hoping my last 20 would be smooth, unstressful, mostly all planned out,, but this 3rd 20 span has trashed it all
23:17 Tom_itx katsmeow-afk if i had the bucks i'd get those ebay caps and be done with it
23:17 tsmeow-afk
23:17 Tom_itx they look nice
23:18 katsmeow-afk you got 63's i'd go with them, they just won't outlast you
23:18 rue_shop wtf...
23:18 Tom_itx they git little use
23:18 Tom_itx get
23:19 katsmeow-afk peple fixing old equipment off ebay are finding the closer to operating volts the caps are, the sooner they fail, and we are talking 20 yr - 30 yr old stuff
23:19 katsmeow-afk basically, if it's a 50v cap with 50 v across it,it will last a yr, maybe, if it's a 100v cap with 50v across it, it will last forever
23:20 furrywolf I'm finding the closer the cap is to being manufactured in mainland china, the sooner they fail.
23:20 Tom_itx unless they dry out and short
23:20 katsmeow-afk a 75v cap with 50 across it, 30 yrs at least, maybe 50, no one has lived long enough to test that
23:20 Tom_itx what determines a cap's voltage?
23:20 katsmeow-afk true, physical damage is not forseeable
23:21 katsmeow-afk furry, you hear about the caps i got lots of for real cheap, and they test way out of capacitance spec?
23:21 katsmeow-afk Tom, dielectric space tween the foils
23:22 furrywolf I've seen exploded chinese caps in computers, tvs, cameras, routers, inverters,... the problem is the chinese bit, not the rating. I had the caps on a brand new motherboard explode in three months, while the japanese ones I replaced them with lasted a decade now...
23:23 katsmeow-afk i got 2000 ($1.01?) 47u@16v that all test at 40u , and 200 47u@somethingvolts that half test at 20u
23:23 katsmeow-afk yeas, cheap caps with only one contact to the foil, huge esr, get hot, pop
23:24 roboman2444 i usually go with 1.5x to 2x the voltage rating of the cap
23:24 roboman2444 so any spikes wont do any damage, and they will last much longer
23:24 katsmeow-afk yeas, Tom could use 75v caps, that would be 1.5 rating, but he doesn't expect to use it 30 yrs, so he has the 63v, use em
23:25 roboman2444 but with robotics... motors and other shits like that like to be very noisy
23:25 katsmeow-afk it's close, but they are free, and he may have it on an hour a week
23:25 katsmeow-afk diode, to keep back emf (motor spikes) out of the caps
23:26 roboman2444 not if you need both ways
23:26 katsmeow-afk i agree with you, 75v for the 50v dc would be better
23:26 roboman2444 and its usually just as well to use some ceramic caps on the motor line
23:26 katsmeow-afk an capacitor psu is not a good load for a motor
23:27 katsmeow-afk i would sooooo not count on the psu absorbing any back motor current or volts, and survive
23:27 roboman2444 battery -> cap -> h bridge -> filter caps -> motor
23:27 katsmeow-afk not without tranzorbs, etc
23:28 katsmeow-afk atm, i dunno his design
23:28 roboman2444 ah
23:28 roboman2444 one thing that annoys me is when you hear the computer fans through the speakers
23:28 e_shop tries to understand how such a carefully documented project could have had a polarity reversal on the compari
23:29 roboman2444 if they are directly to the psu (like most case fans) and the psu/sound card is cheap, you will hear them
23:29 katsmeow-afk odd, i disabled all sound on all but one puter, just because sound on apc is sucky
23:30 roboman2444 you need a good sound card, and a good speaker setup
23:30 roboman2444 ofcourse, you want to be on a very clean line in
23:30 katsmeow-afk until this yr, i didn't have anything worth listening too, and i tend to max out the cpu use, not enough clocks left to do non-skippy sounds
23:31 roboman2444 heh, p3 much?
23:31 katsmeow-afk hmm?
23:31 katsmeow-afk gaming? no
23:31 roboman2444 no, pentium 2
23:31 roboman2444 no, pentium 3
23:32 roboman2444 even if im maxing out cpu, sound is still fine for me
23:32 katsmeow-afk all P4 of 2.4Ghz or faster, in 10 desktop boxes
23:32 roboman2444 odd
23:32 roboman2444 hashes?
23:32 katsmeow-afk no, data mining and storage
23:32 roboman2444 what os?
23:32 katsmeow-afk winxpee
23:33 roboman2444 problem^
23:33 tsmeow-afk
23:33 roboman2444 slap a *nix on it
23:33 katsmeow-afk it works ok for everyting else, i really ha nothing on the puters to listen to anyhow
23:33 roboman2444 ah
23:34 tsmeow-afk ponders di
23:35 roboman2444 lemme guess, west coast?
23:35 katsmeow-afk nope
23:36 katsmeow-afk afk for food
23:46 rue_shop yay!
23:46 rue_shop thats the first of buddies overload board done
23:47 rue_shop 3 pcb changes for the next ones
23:47 rue_shop it works good, the amplifier gain variance isn't too bad
23:48 Tom_itx how well would a thick alum plate work as a heatsink?
23:48 Tom_itx over a finned one
23:51 furrywolf not very. the thickness isn't as important as the surface area, as long as it's not too thin.
23:51 Tom_itx 5/8
23:52 rue_shop pff, it'll be fine, how many watts you pushing into it?
23:53 rue_shop well I need to make 18 power jumpers now... this is annoying
23:53 Tom_itx quite a bit
23:53 Tom_itx they say they need heatsinks over 3A
23:53 Tom_itx i'm gonna set them up for 4A i think
23:53 rue_shop their not L398 are they?
23:54 Tom_itx oh hell no
23:55 rue_shop why not just use odl cpu heatsinks with fans?
23:55 rue_shop thats what I'm doing for my new cnc
23:55 Tom_itx if i had some to spare i would
23:55 rue_shop compuiter recycler
23:55 Tom_itx i may ask around and see if i can get some
23:55 Tom_itx yeah
23:55 Tom_itx they're gettin kinda shitty around here though
23:56 rue_shop ask turnip to send you a set of matching ones
23:56 rue_shop w/fans
23:56 rue_shop he chucks em by the 100lb box
23:57 rue_shop and his old organization chucks them by the tonne
23:57 Tom_itx hmm
23:57 Tom_itx i'll have to figure out the size of these first
23:58 Tom_itx i know one guy used psu heatsinks on his
23:59 rue_shop tell me if youi want those, I have boxes of them
23:59 rue_shop I think I owe you anyhow