#robotics Logs

Apr 06 2012

00:00 furrywolf yeah, that would be my plan. use a hollow shaft with seals to get fluid to the output.
00:00 furrywolf because it'll be part of a hydrostatic transmission, and if it were fixed displacement, it'd be utterly useless.
00:00 katsmeow-afk what about a gear pump, or lobe pump?
00:01 katsmeow-afk ummm, you did say hydroSTATIC , which isn't DYNAMIC displacement
00:01 furrywolf axial piston swashplate pumps are about the only option for variable displacement.
00:02 katsmeow-afk i disagree, you ca also use variable offset rotary
00:02 rue_house furrywolf, in my mind, the math keeps working out to a constant pressure pump
00:02 furrywolf I said "about" for a reason.
00:03 e_house implemtnts furrywolfs pump as a dc genorator, avr controller, dc motor, and std gear
00:03 katsmeow-afk use a fixed gear pump, inject air to offset fluid displacement, bleed the air off later
00:03 rue_house ooooo
00:03 katsmeow-afk rue, iw as gonna suggest that also, but i hae not much idea what he is aiming for
00:04 furrywolf rue_house: displacement ~= 1/output pressure. flow = displacement * rpm. I have no idea how you're getting constant pressure from that...
00:04 rue_house its the sky, but not the sky over the 8' mark :)
00:04 furrywolf the pressure is going to be changing based on the load on the system.
00:04 katsmeow-afk wtf is the load?
00:04 rue_house furrywolf, in a constant pressure system, the flow changes with the load
00:04 furrywolf hydraulic motors, with valving.
00:05 katsmeow-afk rue, not in hydraulics, only in pneumatics
00:05 rue_house my head hurts
00:05 furrywolf rue_house: it's similar to constant pressure, but not the same. for constant pressure, the displacement will go way up as soon as you're a little under the pressure, then drop to zero just over the rated pressure. '
00:06 katsmeow-afk i didn't eat dinner yet, it's 5 till midnite,and my brain shuts off at midnite
00:06 furrywolf for this one, the displacement will only go to full at very low pressure, and will never drop to zero. it'll open a relief valve before that happens.
00:06 rue_house because , in my head, torque into a pump is a factor of output pressure, constant input torque equates to constant output pressure, that combined with variable input power results in variable output flow
00:06 furrywolf again, the variable displacement control is not the hard part. it's designing the rest of the pump for very high efficiency at very low rpm.
00:07 katsmeow-afk what about a CVT driving a fixed pump?
00:07 furrywolf katsmeow-afk: this will be a CVT, in effect.
00:07 tsmeow-afk bangs her head on the t
00:07 katsmeow-afk doesn't answer my question
00:08 e_house joins
00:08 tsmeow-afk goes to get dinner from micro
00:08 rue_house *thump* *thump*
00:08 furrywolf a hydrostatic transmission is a CVT implemented with hydraulics.
00:10 katsmeow-afk doesn't answer my question
00:10 furrywolf your question makes no sense, as it involves using the part being built to build the part.
00:11 furrywolf the whole unit _is_ a CVT. that's what a hydrostatic transmission is.
00:11 katsmeow-afk you didn't say you wanted to build a cvt, you said you wanted a varaibale displacement hydraulic pump, which you can effectively get if you put a mechanical cvt driving tha fixed pump
00:11 rue_house +- the efficiency he wants
00:12 rue_house my genorator/motor design is only 64%
00:12 rue_house - eff of the gearpump
00:12 furrywolf the harder part is the efficiency... you can get >95% efficient pumps, but they run at 1800/3600 rpm... I need to make a pump that's just as efficient at 30rpm.
00:12 katsmeow-afk i am going to assume you are building a 4x4 truck, adding ONE cvt ahead of the pump still lets you use the advantages of the hydraulic drive sytem
00:13 tsmeow-afk sighs,, did you see the part about displacing some oil in a fixed pump by injecting air? that will lower it's effective displacement, and still rn at 1800
00:13 e_house puts a 1:30 harmonic gearup on furrywolf's s
00:14 furrywolf I don't have 1800rpm. I have 30-120 rpm. sigh...
00:14 katsmeow-afk less air = more fluid pumped
00:14 furrywolf rue_house: harmonic drives have piss-poor efficiency. :)
00:14 katsmeow-afk oh, see you didn't SAY that before
00:14 katsmeow-afk you said you WANTED 30-120rpm
00:14 rue_house oh
00:14 rue_house no he had 30-120rpm in
00:14 rue_house he wants to load it with constand torque
00:15 e_house waps the d and t
00:15 katsmeow-afk then the genny-motor is also out
00:15 furrywolf I asked for references on hydraulic pump design, not suggestions for how reality being different or building something for a completely different application would change it.
00:15 katsmeow-afk how many hp are we talking?
00:15 katsmeow-afk i have no refs on hydraulic pump design,, i have found hydraulic pump breakdowns online, please enjoy yourself
00:15 tsmeow-afk eats di
00:16 e_house thinks about it forwards and backwards, still gets a constand pressure
00:16 furrywolf blah, I'm getting lagged... just got an entire screenful of text at once.
00:16 rue_house WHERE ARE THESE Ds COMMING FROM!
00:17 rue_house katsmeow-afk, eff on a torque converter is suckass right?
00:17 katsmeow-afk [ChanServ PING reply]: 13 secs , but i know my puter is busy, and Tiggr is using all possible free space in the lan wiring
00:18 katsmeow-afk rue, yeas
00:18 rue_house !time
00:18 tobbor My watch says its 22:10 Thu Apr 05 2012
00:18 rue_house !time
00:18 tobbor My watch says its 22:10 Thu Apr 05 2012
00:18 rue_house !time
00:18 tobbor My watch says its 22:10 Thu Apr 05 2012
00:18 rue_house !time
00:18 rue_house !time
00:18 tobbor My watch says its 22:10 Thu Apr 05 2012
00:18 rue_house !time
00:18 rue_house pff flood control
00:18 rue_house oh and I dont have seconds on there, grrrr
00:19 katsmeow-afk i can sometimes see the packets coming thru the lan cable, bulging the line as they pass down it
00:19 rue_house meter says .1 seconds for me
00:19 rue_house katsmeow-afk, mind the cable jackets are all in good shape then!
00:20 furrywolf rue_shop: let's say the load is a valve, and the input rpm is constant. the valve is, say, half open. the pump adusts to whatever displacement is needed to maintain the set input torque, which ends up with a certain pressure drop across the valve. assuming nothing changes, the flow and pressure will stay the same once the feedback stabilizes.
00:20 rue_house oh the lag meter just jumped off the scale
00:20 furrywolf now, I shut the valve further, to, say, 1/4 open. the pressure rises, the pump lowers its displacement, then it settles at a new set point, with a higher pressure and lower flow, but still the same input torque.
00:21 furrywolf how the heck are you figuring this behavior is constant pressure? :)
00:21 katsmeow-afk the fixed input hp to the pump is a big stumbling block
00:22 rue_house furrywolf, ok lets say that you have 100rpm in, at 30kg-cm on that, and 5 psi on your high side valve, whats your flow?
00:22 katsmeow-afk we don't have a clue how much hp is invloved
00:22 furrywolf I'm on a long wifi link with an intermittant interference source, that is currently present, causing about 22% packet loss currently, hence my lag.
00:22 rue_house whats the power, assuming 90% eff, whats the output flow?
00:22 furrywolf power is about 1/2hp
00:22 rue_house 100rpm, 30kg-cm is 1/2hp?
00:22 furrywolf (for my app, not your example)
00:23 katsmeow-afk geese alreay then use a power steering or baby gear pump and air injection up to 90% by volume
00:23 rue_house use some real numbers
00:23 furrywolf I was answering katsmeow-afk's asking about the application horsepower.
00:23 furrywolf not your example.
00:24 furrywolf as for your example, it's way too late at night to think about real number math. :)
00:24 rue_house You have: 100rpm*30kg/cm
00:24 rue_house You want: watts
00:24 rue_house conformability error
00:24 rue_house 31415.927 kg radian / m s
00:24 rue_house 1 kg m^2 / s^3
00:24 furrywolf and you use units that only the other 95% of the world uses. :P
00:24 katsmeow-afk if it were me, i'd use one of the 12vdc hydraulic powerpacks i have, and an avr to modulate the electrical feeding it to constant wattage, easily measured and conrolled
00:24 rue_house I can never gets the units right ot make this damn thing do power - torueq-rpm converstions
00:25 furrywolf katsmeow-afk: the input does not come from an electric motor.
00:25 rue_house I know torque* rpm = power
00:25 furrywolf rpm is weird with units.
00:25 katsmeow-afk i know that, i gave you THREE options i see as small, cheap, viable,, ONE was electric, you have discarded them all
00:25 furrywolf hrmm, we need the Gigs bot in here.
00:26 furrywolf You have: 100 / minute * 30 ft lbfs
00:26 furrywolf You want: watts
00:26 furrywolf * 67.790897
00:26 furrywolf yeah, likes if you just use /minute, so it doesn't stick radians into it.
00:27 katsmeow-afk i need a crankshaft from a diesel engine, good for at least 800ft-lbs, preferably for free
00:28 furrywolf katsmeow-afk: check your local scrapyard, engine shops, etc. cranks are pretty reliable parts, and are usually good even when the engine is otherwise ready to be scrapped.
00:29 katsmeow-afk yeas, they get car engines, nothing big
00:29 katsmeow-afk 800 is more than the biggest gas burner put out
00:29 furrywolf also, you're using kg, which are a mass unit, while you should be using newtons.
00:29 furrywolf stupid metric units. :P
00:30 furrywolf 800 is not that high for a diesel. any large cummins, etc, will do that. but why do you need just a crank, from a random application?
00:30 furrywolf obviously you should be using linear actuators, a rotation sensor, and an AVR with a sine lookup table.
00:31 katsmeow-afk i have a 4.x liter diesel in a dually, it has various problems, if i can make something to replace it with, even if i haveto replace stuff every 5000 miles, i'll be ahead of repairing this low-powered monster
00:31 katsmeow-afk this diesle maxes at 400ft-lbs, IF the turbow was working, and IF the injector pump was the right one
00:32 katsmeow-afk but put 4000lbs on it, and it won't keep up even 55 on some hills on the interstate tween Macon and Atl ga
00:32 furrywolf heh. I'm thinking of putting a 7.3l diesel in my truck.
00:32 rue_house accoring to units, torque is measured in kg*s^2/m^2*radian
00:32 katsmeow-afk i got it for a specific reason, the reason passed, if i can make an engne for it, then i can make one for the boat too
00:33 furrywolf rue_house: torque is measured in force * distance.
00:33 furrywolf foot pounds, newton meters, etc.
00:34 furrywolf my truck has that problem too... except it only goes 55 up hills unloaded, with a tail wind.
00:34 furrywolf 55 is the design top speed, maxxes around 65 on level ground...
00:35 katsmeow-afk and that can be plain dangerous at times
00:35 furrywolf the engine is over its 4K rpm redline at 65mph.
00:35 furrywolf if it still had the governer, it would throttle it back before it got that fast, from excessive rpm.
00:35 katsmeow-afk i have a 5speed manual, if i get too many rpm, it's just wasting fuel, and in the wrong gear
00:36 katsmeow-afk over 2500 rpm it won't make any more power, and it won't make any under 2200rpm,, and to make it worse, there's a 1000rpm spread each side of 3rd gear
00:37 katsmeow-afk previous owner pulled the electronic distributor from it, above 2500 rpm it is starved of fuel
00:37 rue_house furrywolf, I cant work with units, give me a example like you did with numbers in it and I'll work on your problem more with you
00:37 katsmeow-afk and as limited to 400ft-lbs anyhow, the max it can make at redline is only 200hp
00:37 furrywolf I have a 4spd manual. first is granny low, fourth is 1:1, and I have 5.88 axle gears.
00:38 furrywolf You have: 100 / minute * 50 ft lbf
00:38 furrywolf You want: gallons / minute * 100 lbf / in2
00:38 furrywolf * 2.5974026
00:38 home i need to learn about transmission..
00:38 furrywolf 50ftlbs at 100rpm will give 2.6gpm flow at 100psi.
00:40 katsmeow-afk this just looks scarey skinny http://www.ebay.com/itm/Diesel-Engine-Crankshaft-/230739764686?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item35b92965ce
00:41 furrywolf You have: 100/minute * 50 ft lbf
00:41 furrywolf You want: gpm * 100 psi
00:41 furrywolf * 2.5974026
00:41 furrywolf shorter units. :)
00:41 katsmeow-afk this loks *much* stronger : http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-JI-CASE-400-DIESEL-TRACTOR-ENGINE-CRANKSHAFT-GEAR-/300689320551?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46027aea67
00:42 furrywolf that's just basic power... 50ftlbs at 100rpm is the same amount of power as 2.6gpm at 100psi.
00:42 home what can I buy from ebay
00:42 home for robotics?
00:42 furrywolf everything.
00:42 katsmeow-afk everything, and if you looks carefully, for really cheap too
00:42 home too bad I dont have credit card..
00:43 katsmeow-afk don't need one
00:43 katsmeow-afk paypal can operate with a checking account
00:44 katsmeow-afk i do not buy on ebay with a cc
00:44 katsmeow-afk how to bottom-feed on ebay : [14:26] <katsmeow-afk> kool, just ordered parts for qty100 [optocoupled mosfet 120v switches for miniflourescent lights] and qty100 [programmable current regulators for 5mm led strings] and qty50 [programmable current regulators for 1w and 3w leds] ..... all for ~$25.00usd
00:45 katsmeow-afk i also one got 4 new starter motors for riding mower for ~$25, *including* the s&h
00:46 furrywolf find me a >2.5kw sine wave inverter, 24v input, for $50 please. :P
00:46 katsmeow-afk grabbed 2 7603 100Mhz mainframe scope for 99 cents
00:46 katsmeow-afk hmmm, i got a 2kw for $150, new
00:46 katsmeow-afk sine, 12v in, never used, wanratee
00:47 furrywolf oh, and from a major american manufacturer.
00:48 katsmeow-afk that's impossible
00:48 katsmeow-afk i can prolly build one myself for under $50 tho
00:48 furrywolf I got my 1kw Statpower Prosine for $113 on ebay. heh.
00:49 katsmeow-afk wind a lowvolt winding on a microwave tranny, drive it with some igbt i have for free, should work, specially if add a LC resonant loop or 3
00:50 furrywolf 3kw+ from a microwave transformer core? heh.
00:51 furrywolf also, needs to be efficient. solar panels are expensive.
00:51 katsmeow-afk 1000W Pure sine wave Solar power inverter,DC12/2?4/48V to AC100~120/220~2?40V ; Location: China Buy It Now $190.00
00:51 katsmeow-afk oh, then save the money for the pricey lithium bateries
00:52 katsmeow-afk i built a 10-batery for the 2kw ups, they didn't last
00:53 katsmeow-afk 10 yrs later, i have no batterys, and 800lbs of lead
00:53 furrywolf I'm trying to save up for Ni-Fe batteries.
00:55 katsmeow-afk STACKABLE POWER INVERTER 2500/5000 W 12V DC TO 120V AC Location: Michigan, USA 0 Bids $0.01 Free shipping Time left:3d 20h 6m
00:55 katsmeow-afk STACKABLE POWER INVERTER 2500/5000 W 12V DC TO 120V AC Location: USA 0 Bids $0.01 Free shipping Time left:5d 20h 3m
00:55 katsmeow-afk NEW POWER INVERTER 12V DC to 120v AC 6000/12000 WATTS! Location: Michigan, USA 1 Bid $0.01 Free shipping Time left:6d
00:55 furrywolf those aren't sine.
00:55 furrywolf and the stackable guy always has reserves.
00:55 katsmeow-afk o
00:55 katsmeow-afk my i ask why it mus be sine?
00:57 furrywolf because motors run substantially hotter and less efficient on modified sine, cordless tool battery chargers melt into plastic blobs, phase-angle dimmers stop working, etc?
00:57 katsmeow-afk Cobra CPI-1000 1,000 Watt 12V DC to 120V AC Power Inverter with USB Port NEW! Location: New York, USA 0 Bids $29.99 +$20.00 shipping Time left:1d 21h 13m
00:57 katsmeow-afk oh, ok
00:58 katsmeow-afk with so few people selling sine outputs, i figured o one wanted them
00:58 katsmeow-afk else they's sell
00:59 furrywolf they're much, much more expensive.
00:59 theBear they don't sell cos they cost so much more and the few 'normal people' that need them don't know until it's too late
00:59 katsmeow-afk depends on how they are built
00:59 furrywolf if you got a 2kw sine inverter for $150 new, it was a very good deal.
00:59 katsmeow-afk i agree
01:00 furrywolf $150 is about what a 300W goes for normally...
01:00 theBear you think normal people can look at the little pictures of various appliances with ticks and crosses on the packaging of an inverter and compare those to what they plan on using ? don't be ridiculous !
01:01 katsmeow-afk i wonder why they still call them invertors, no one is inverting the positive gnd of an antique .eu car to a negative gnd with them any more
01:02 katsmeow-afk ah ha, i can still get that 2kw for $160+s&h
01:02 furrywolf sine?
01:02 katsmeow-afk 1500w for $130, 1kw for $79, +s&h
01:02 furrywolf that's a normal price for a modified sine.
01:02 furrywolf not sine.
01:03 katsmeow-afk modified sine is a stepped squarewave, it's nowhere near sne
01:03 tsmeow-afk has a few of
01:03 theBear inverter seems to be a standard term for any kind of 'fancy' voltage change these days, like inverter microwaves, or inverter welders
01:03 furrywolf right.
01:04 furrywolf and those prices usually get you modified sine, not sine.
01:04 furrywolf are you sure they're sine?
01:04 katsmeow-afk checking...... i scoped my 2kw, it's sine, loaded and unloaded, a cleaner sine than from the powerco even
01:05 katsmeow-afk drat, nope, the new one is diff color and is "modified sine"
01:05 theBear heh, they really should call it modified square :)
01:06 furrywolf the packet loss on my connection is getting to where I'm too lagged to chat, and it's 11:00, so time for me to head to bed.
01:06 katsmeow-afk gnites
01:06 furrywolf yeah, as I suspected, those were modified sine prices. a real sine inverter at that price would be a nice find. heh.
01:07 katsmeow-afk the $500 5kw one does not say modified
01:07 katsmeow-afk does not say sine eitehr
01:07 furrywolf it's modified. :P
01:07 furrywolf and, yeah, modified square would be a much better name.
01:07 furrywolf as that's what it is.
01:07 katsmeow-afk got the pdf for it...
01:07 furrywolf 35% packet loss. blah!
01:08 katsmeow-afk nope, also modified
01:08 katsmeow-afk see, they quit selling the sine, because humans don't buy them i am thinking
01:08 furrywolf look at what true sine inverters are selling for... they're not cheap. even the direct from chinese crap.
01:08 theBear i've reconnected 3 times since the last line i wrote
01:09 furrywolf I'm find some to paste, but http is out of the question with my connection.
01:09 katsmeow-afk i'd lookk, if i could find any
01:09 tsmeow-afk ponder
01:09 furrywolf I might get a broken xantrex/prosine 3.0 from someone for $150... they're $2500-$3000 or so new, for 3kw.
01:10 theBear sounds like a bottle of pills :)
01:10 furrywolf ?
01:10 theBear xantrex/prosine 3.0 for $150
01:10 katsmeow-afk i could make one for very cheap from nukebox transformers, but i cannot do that many times, i have a fixed qty of 25 transformers
01:10 furrywolf xantrex is one of the largest inverter manufacturers/labelers...
01:11 katsmeow-afk pricey as hell too
01:11 furrywolf yep.
01:11 katsmeow-afk tis why when i first needed 120vac in early 1980's, i built one
01:12 furrywolf tis why my house is currently running off an apc smart-ups, which can be picked up for $0 most everywhere. :)
01:12 katsmeow-afk use 2N3055's to toggle 12v across 6v windngs, ran sterio etc off the 120v primary
01:12 katsmeow-afk worked really well
01:12 furrywolf at a whole 50% efficiency and a square wave output? :)
01:12 katsmeow-afk you on total pv panels?
01:13 furrywolf yes
01:13 katsmeow-afk well, no fan on the heatsinks, xformer got hot only over 200watt load, it was a 200w xformer
01:14 furrywolf the older apc smart-ups models (the original ones, not the -sc ones) contain a quite high quality true sine inverter.
01:14 katsmeow-afk kool, i have 10 panels, if i put up i get attack dogs sic'd on me
01:14 furrywolf that happily puts out its rated power for years on end.
01:14 katsmeow-afk i bought over 10 yrs ago, they have never put out a single watt
01:15 katsmeow-afk humans here say to use them means i am stealing from the powerco
01:15 katsmeow-afk and so i deserve to be attacked by dogs, and they'll supply the dogs
01:15 furrywolf I have a 1000va smart-ups, and I run everything in the house except the microwave off it. fridge, lights, juicer, lathe, sump pump, etc, no problem...
01:15 katsmeow-afk even my mother said so
01:15 furrywolf you can send them to me. I'll relive you of that burden free of charge.
01:15 theBear you need to find a local like me, who enjoys a good dog-fight, and is in no way legally related to you
01:15 katsmeow-afk i have a baby 2.5kw 120vac genney can run everything on, tho not all at once
01:16 furrywolf the microwave runs off a dimensions 2.6kw modified-sine inverter.
01:17 katsmeow-afk mine wold not develope cook power on a clipped wave of any kind
01:17 katsmeow-afk even a clipepd sine
01:17 furrywolf I have an inverter microwave. it'd probably run off dc. the line input goes right to a big bridge...
01:18 katsmeow-afk DesignerThinking.com/images/2phase/IMG_0550.jpg
01:18 furrywolf I've tried transformer-based microwaves on modified sine, and yes, they're useless.
01:18 furrywolf but inverter ones are happy.
01:19 katsmeow-afk the clipped tops are the waveform from the powerco, the other waveform is one i generated by offsetting 90 degrees
01:19 furrywolf my browser is stuck on the "looking up" phase. 40% packet loss...
01:19 furrywolf actually, 32.5% right now.
01:19 katsmeow-afk it's 97k bytes
01:20 theBear your powerco sucks
01:20 katsmeow-afk but you can see the top and bottom peaks are flattopped
01:20 katsmeow-afk bear, yeas
01:20 furrywolf bbl, bedtime
01:21 katsmeow-afk i shoved that powerco thru a phase shifter, and got peaks back, and the flattop distortion moved to the 0v crossover area where it matters alot less
01:21 katsmeow-afk overall volts are lower, needs a few more windings, or a 6v transformer in series
01:21 furrywolf I have a big ferroresonant regulator in storage for fixing bad powerco power.
01:22 furrywolf I've found that as long as you give it 60hz, it makes anything pretty.
01:22 katsmeow-afk those are seriously inefficeent
01:22 katsmeow-afk i have a 1kw and a 500w one
01:23 katsmeow-afk even idling, they are room heaters
01:33 rue_house kat, do they bill for water on a weekly/monthly/yearly basis?
01:37 katsmeow-afk told ya, monthly
01:37 tsmeow-afk is going to bed, gn
01:52 rue_house http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=J09E_luT1pM
01:52 rue_house what can I get shaft that large out of?
02:11 rue_house http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0ICdvaU94o&feature=related crazy
02:33 peeps[lappy] any RC hobby types in here? i'm wondering if there is a balance charger that can handle a 4S4P LiFePo4 pack
02:34 peeps[lappy] er, i guess it's not necessarily RC specific
07:50 AuroraX what's the best algorithm to calculate inverse kinematics of a generic joint chain? I was tought the raw way: doing it all by hand and get some results after painful hours of it
08:13 Skwint I've fiddle about with the broken switch in my RC car and replaced a 3 position 5 wire switch with a 2 position 2 wire switch and the whole car still works fine
08:13 Skwint but I do have a puzzle - there is a single black wire going from the circuit board to the switch and the only time it ever is connected to anything is when the car is turned off - then it is connected to ground - can anyone give me an explanation for that?
08:29 SolarNRG HELP, Lexi's broken down without her mobile phone and I've rung up the AA and even though we paid them, they are refusing to come out and help her on grounds of a loophole. What do?
08:32 Steffanx Broken down SolarNRG ?
08:33 SolarNRG Yeah Lexi has
08:33 SolarNRG I haven't got any cash
08:34 SolarNRG I called the AA they said we didn't have the right cover, so I'm convinced the AA are criminal pirates
08:34 SolarNRG To walk there its 5 hours along some busy and dangerous roads
08:34 SolarNRG I don't have any friends
08:34 SolarNRG And I can't call her
08:35 Steffanx Sorry, what's the AA?
08:37 SolarNRG www.theaa.com/
08:37 SolarNRG They are a compnay that are supposed to help you if your car breaks down
08:37 SolarNRG But they really only take money then don't lift a finger to help you when the time comes
08:39 SolarNRG Can you guys please send out a giant robot and tow her car out for me and I shall repay you by working for free for 2 weeks?
08:40 Steffanx lol
08:41 SolarNRG Please
08:42 Steffanx Yeah, sure.. i have 10 giant robots in my backyard
08:42 SolarNRG Oh great, are you near Glasgow?
08:43 Steffanx My robots can teleport themself
08:43 SolarNRG .... you're kidding right?
08:43 SolarNRG Or as in they can drive?
08:43 Steffanx I hope you were kidding..
08:44 SolarNRG ACtually no
08:44 SolarNRG Lexi really is broken down
08:44 SolarNRG And I have no money
08:44 SolarNRG And the AA are refusing to come out
08:44 Skwint Is she the member or are you?
08:45 SolarNRG She is a member, not me
08:45 SolarNRG But they DID find her number plate on the system
08:45 SolarNRG Then still refused to come out
08:45 Skwint there is usually a callbox somewhere along roads like that - all the UK motorways have them
08:45 SolarNRG When this is all over, I will order Lexi to cut off all AA subscription fees
08:45 Skwint what's their argument?
08:45 SolarNRG She is less than 5 miles from her mum's house where teh car is registered and she is not on a motorway
08:46 SolarNRG You can UPGRADE your membership for only 595 pounds more a year
08:46 SolarNRG So I told them FUCK YOU then hung up
08:46 Steffanx Yeah, i thinks that helps
08:46 SolarNRG It made me feel a lot better
08:49 Skwint hmmm, well, then they do kind of have a valid point
08:49 Skwint I don't bother with membership - I take my chances and pay them to come when and if I need them - you could try RAC or greenflag as alternatives
08:50 SolarNRG I broke down in Birmingham, I ran to a garage, they charged me 20 quid cash for a tow
08:50 SolarNRG the AA charge hundreds of pounds a year then DO NOT HELP
08:50 SolarNRG Skwint, I'm with you on this one
08:50 Skwint which is why I am not a member :p
08:50 SolarNRG That was years ago when I still had a car
08:53 Steffanx She has no friends either to help out SolarNRG ?
08:54 SolarNRG No all her friends turned into drug addicts and we don't talk to them anymore
08:55 Steffanx Aw
09:03 Skwint now would be a great time for her to stick her thumb out and make a new friend
09:03 Skwint although I'd be hesitant doing that near glasgow :/
09:04 rue_house I think it was up by brimmingham that I got a taxi ride back to the nearest ATM machine to get some money to pay the taxi driver and get a ride back to where I was going
09:05 rue_house I was really happy they said he would give me the list to the machine without paing first
11:30 furrywolf I like AAA here in the US. 4 tows a year, each up to 100 miles, no questions asked. great for bringing home new project cars. :P
11:30 furrywolf "yeah, my car broke down... it's at <address of person with car for sale> - we pushed it in the driveway."
11:31 furrywolf the tow truck drivers just laugh when they see it has no engine or otherwise was obviously not driven recently.
11:31 furrywolf they get paid either way, so it's fine with them.
13:04 delinquentme when you've got an analog sensor like this http://sharp-world.com/products/device/lineup/data/pdf/datasheet/gp2y0a21yk_e.pdf .. is the resolution something along the lines of "unlimited" ?
13:05 delinquentme not quite up to the point of a photon wavelength
13:05 delinquentme but
13:26 Squint delinquentme, the resolution is pretty poor, as far as I can tell from mine
13:26 Tom_L http://www2.electronicproducts.com/SSD_IC_uses_SLC_NAND_SATA_interface-article-ICDJH08_May2012-html.aspx
13:26 Squint but I think I might be putting too muh voltage through it
13:28 delinquentme Squint, someone said the reflectivity matters
13:29 Squint probably, yes
13:29 Squint they work by triangulating an infra red beam, so the margin of error is fairly big
13:29 delinquentme reallly
13:30 delinquentme i guess id expect that to be .. rather accurate
13:30 Squint my reading back from mine is 19,20,21 ... 27 and then 35565
13:30 delinquentme ....
13:30 Squint which is awful
13:30 Tom_L http://www2.electronicproducts.com/How_to_build_your_first_robot-article-fajb_how_to_robots_dec2011-html.aspx
13:30 delinquentme interfering light?
13:30 Squint hence thinking I've got it wrong
13:30 delinquentme do you have it shielded?
13:30 Squint nope - just attached to the ADC
13:30 delinquentme like i've got plans to wrap my sensor and mirror in a jacket
13:30 Squint I don't think I'd use a mirror ...
13:30 delinquentme well then you're probably getting tons of stray readings
13:31 Squint I'd use white paper or something
13:31 Squint in a mirror it will try to measure the distance to the reflected object rather than the mirror itself?
13:31 Squint it's fairly consistent, it just doesn't give me a good reading
13:32 Squint http://www.societyofrobots.com/sensors_sharpirrange.shtml
13:42 KongfuPanda hello :)
13:43 KongfuPanda I got an AXON controller from the society of robots
13:43 Squint gratz :)
13:46 delinquentme wait its... consistent
13:46 delinquentme but doesnt give a good reasing?
13:47 delinquentme reading*
13:52 delinquentme Squint, what are you reflecting it off of?
13:57 KongfuPanda Squint, have you seen my robot on that AXON controller?
14:17 Squint I'm using wood, painted walls and my hand
14:17 Squint and no, I haven't seen your robot I don't think
14:17 Squint mine moves now!
14:18 Squint but I'm having issues with the programmer - how are you programming your axon?
14:19 Squint by "not a good reading" what I mean is I get only about 8 distinct values over its full range
14:19 Squint they are consistent, fluctuating up and down by 1 sometimes, but there simply aren't enough of them
14:28 delinquentme 8 values..
14:28 delinquentme wtf.
14:28 Squint yeah, quite
14:28 Squint hence thinking I need to cut the voltate a bit or something
14:29 Squint I think I'm running the axon on 7.4v atm and the sensor is supposed to be 5.5?
14:29 Squint I have two of the sensor and they both give the same results
14:33 delinquentme oh well yeah you need to give it the right input v////
14:57 Squint not sure how to do that - I guess I just shove a resistor in
14:59 Squint meh - that will make my electronics look messy :
15:02 delinquentme yeah resistor i think is what u want
15:03 katsmeow-afk i swear,, you guys don't know what happens when you overvolt parts? you never heard of 78L05 ? 7805? LM317? 7812? 7905?
15:04 katsmeow-afk even LM431 ?
15:05 katsmeow-afk have you heard of zener diodes?
15:05 delinquentme nope nope nope
15:05 delinquentme nada :D
15:05 delinquentme katsmeow-afk, ^
15:06 katsmeow-afk look them up
15:07 katsmeow-afk buy right, you can get qty50 78L05 to protect your sensors etc, run them at proper voltage, protect from surge and short circuits, for under $5
15:08 katsmeow-afk 10 cents each, saves your $10 sensor or cpu
15:08 katsmeow-afk i buy them in to-92 case, you can get smd even cheaper, but they are lower power too
15:09 katsmeow-afk for increasing power, smd, to-92, cuttab for soldering to pcb heatsink, to-220, to-3
15:10 delinquentme oh so they basically act like a breaker for the sensors
15:10 katsmeow-afk + volts, - volts, fixed voltage, adjustable voltage, all thermal protected, all current limit protected, all output voltage protected
15:10 katsmeow-afk not breakers, limiters
15:10 delinquentme ah
15:11 katsmeow-afk these parts have been around since the 1970's, i swear
15:11 katsmeow-afk you shold know them
15:14 katsmeow-afk ebay, 7805, to-220, 404 hits
15:14 katsmeow-afk ebay, 78L05, to-92 and smd, 197 hits
15:14 delinquentme katsmeow-afk, thanks! i've got it noted
15:15 delinquentme just sent out a ton of emails on locating linear encoders
15:15 delinquentme ./sigh
15:15 katsmeow-afk ebay, 78M05, cut tab smd, 119 hits
15:16 katsmeow-afk ebay, 7805 to3, to-3 can, 11 hits
15:17 katsmeow-afk i didn't bother checking for other fixed voltages, or the variable regulators
15:17 katsmeow-afk and since they have been around over 40 years, tehre's also newer ones, different numbers
15:18 katsmeow-afk basically, there's no reason to apply 7v to a part the data shest says should get only 5.5v max
15:19 delinquentme katsmeow-afk, so do you need to reduce then use these? or will these limit and reduce?
15:19 delinquentme voltage
15:20 katsmeow-afk you put up to 30v into one, ground the ref leg, it spits out it's rated voltage on the other leg
15:21 katsmeow-afk if it's rated for 100ma (the to-92 78L05), all it will put into a short circuit is 100ma
15:21 katsmeow-afk if it's rated for 1.5amps (the to-3 7805CK), all it will put into a short circuit is 1.5 amps
15:21 delinquentme cool so it handles step down then
15:21 delinquentme but whats the limit? it obvs needs heat sinks for tons
15:21 katsmeow-afk why are you trolling me?
15:22 delinquentme o_o
15:22 katsmeow-afk people should know about how to make stable power before you ever learn what devices use the power
15:23 delinquentme katsmeow-afk, come on
15:23 delinquentme you know me by now
15:23 katsmeow-afk you shold know how to make 15v before you ever use an opamp on 15v
15:23 delinquentme in no way shape or form am I someone who reads the manual before i do something
15:23 rue_house http://gestureworks.com/features/product-comparison-chart/ they say its open source, and yet they are charging for liscnces
15:23 katsmeow-afk give them a gesture, rue!
15:24 Squint I'm coming from a software background kats
15:24 rue_house http://gestureworks.com/wp-content/themes/gestureWorks/images/gestures.jpg
15:24 rue_house I tried, but I cant tell how they interperted it
15:24 Squint I learnt C 30 years ago - I learnt to use a soldering iron from youtube this year
15:24 Squint a diode is a one-way bit to me - didn't know they could regulate voltage
15:24 rue_house Squint, what libraries of your own have you written
15:25 katsmeow-afk delinquentme, some regulators need heatsinking, which is why some are in TO-3 cans
15:25 Squint um, heaps, mostly game oriented for myself, and lots in various companies
15:25 Squint lots of graphics work, strangely enough
15:25 katsmeow-afk some you design around so they never haveto need heatsining, like the TO-92 or the ssop-8 package
15:25 rue_house I'm working on a 1d gesture system
15:26 katsmeow-afk most epple don't drop from 30v to 5v, they drop from12v or 9v to 5v
15:26 rue_house or all of the above
15:26 Squint how do you get multiple gestures in 1D? encode things morse-code style?
15:26 rue_house Squint, no, I'm doing acceleration and velocity change events
15:26 katsmeow-afk squint, rue means like a barcode laser scanner
15:26 rue_house no
15:27 rue_house a point on a line that moves
15:27 katsmeow-afk well, then i still have no clue what 1D means
15:27 rue_house its position is sampled at 30hz
15:27 katsmeow-afk the laser dot IS a point on a line that moves
15:27 Squint so an accelerating-to-the-right gesture means something?
15:27 delinquentme rue_house, http://rocky.digikey.com/weblib/Panasonic/Web%20Photos/New%20Photos/EVB-NA%2060MM%20SERIES.jpg
15:27 rue_house its velocity and acceleration are worked out, and changes in the velocity and acceleration are the quantification for the gesture
15:27 Squint I'm curious - what sensor do you have that means this is a sensible idea?
15:28 rue_house Squint, a peak on an fft
15:28 rue_house ;)
15:28 Squint heh
15:28 rue_house or a line sensor like on a scanner
15:28 katsmeow-afk heavy math you cannot do on a $5 avr
15:28 Squint I've not done fft since my degree
15:28 rue_house or the x axis of a mouse
15:28 rue_house katsmeow-afk, no, the math is light, the memory isn't so much
15:29 katsmeow-afk prove it
15:29 rue_house I cant even prove it'll work, I'm gonna make it and play
15:29 tsmeow-afk is pissed atm because her back is in tons of pain and she needs to be hooking up creek water to the toilets, so she can flush
15:31 Squint kats, is this appropriate for a 5v IR sensor? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100-x-ZPD5V6-5-6V-Zener-diodes-NOS-/200738983484?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item2ebcf9ce3c
15:31 Squint because I've never heard of these things before
15:32 katsmeow-afk those do not detect IR
15:32 AuroraX what's the best algorithm to calculate inverse kinematics of a generic joint chain? I was tought the raw way: doing it all by hand and get some results after painful hours of it
15:32 Squint no no, but are they something that will drop a 7.4v supply to 5v?
15:32 katsmeow-afk and you see it says 5.6v, it doesn't say 5v
15:32 katsmeow-afk no
15:32 Squint near enough :p
15:32 Squint ok :(
15:32 katsmeow-afk nope
15:32 katsmeow-afk and zeners are soft and sloppy
15:33 katsmeow-afk how many do you need? 100?
15:33 Squint I need 1
15:33 Squint I don't mind buying a bag full
15:33 Squint found a 5.1v ... the sensor says 4.5->5.5
15:34 katsmeow-afk http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=1&_nkw=78L05&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m283
15:34 rue_house AuroraX, I have a librar
15:34 rue_house y
15:35 katsmeow-afk those will give you exactly 5v +/- 0.1v, and have shortcircuit protection
15:35 rue_house AuroraX, but if you have a redundant joint, the path is up to you
15:35 Squint thanks kats - reading
15:35 katsmeow-afk cheaper if you buy outside the uk, but shipping times can be really long
15:36 AuroraX rue_house: librar?
15:36 katsmeow-afk you can get 25 of them from Thailand for 99 cents, free s$h, but shipping may be 3 weeks
15:36 rue_house library, read into the context and not the actual content of what I'm saying
15:36 katsmeow-afk AuroraX:
15:36 katsmeow-afk [15:25] <rue_house> AuroraX, I have a librar
15:36 katsmeow-afk [15:25] <rue_house> y
15:36 katsmeow-afk librar + y
15:36 katsmeow-afk library
15:37 rue_house = library
15:38 AuroraX rue_house: which one?
15:38 rue_house hmm
15:38 rue_house !assist programming/c/
15:38 tobbor Possibly http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/programming/c/
15:38 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/programming/c/ik/
15:39 katsmeow-afk zeners are *very* unstable for temperature, current thru them,a nd voltage across them, i never use them, if i need a shunt regulator, i use a LM431, they are very stable
15:39 rue_house you just put the zener in series with a rtc and feed it with a constant current source
15:39 katsmeow-afk yo can also configure the LM431 to be a stable voltage source, or current source
15:40 AuroraX rue_house: nice
15:40 rue_house AuroraX, it should compile too
15:40 katsmeow-afk rue, i have seen 18v zeners with 22v across them
15:40 rue_house well yea
15:41 katsmeow-afk seen 100v zeners wiith 110v across them
15:41 katsmeow-afk zeners are sloppy and soft
15:41 katsmeow-afk just look at their E/I curves
15:41 rue_house AuroraX, I must have a fk library I used to do http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P75b7vqQWRQ too
15:42 rue_house I know I flattened that one from a 3d line set
15:43 katsmeow-afk zener sheets have curves and slopes, the LM431 has straight lines and one 90 degree corner
15:43 rue_house Squint, have a kinematics library?
15:43 rue_house is the 90 degree where the smoke comes out?
15:44 katsmeow-afk nope, that's where it clamps the voltage down and won't let it up
15:44 Squint nothing generic and reusable, and generally computer game oriented - what do you need it to do?
15:44 rue_house I'z just wondering
15:44 rue_house looks like I have ~103 files in my generic library
15:45 rue_house but one is an a.out....
15:45 Squint heh
15:45 rue_house roughly half are the header files to the C files
15:45 Squint biggest single blob of code I ever worked on was 600,000 lines of C++ - it was awful
15:45 Squint biggest system I worked on was Symbian OS (4,000,000)
15:45 rue_house yea, c++ is horrible
15:45 Squint I like C++ because it is my strongest language
15:45 Squint but yeah, it's horrible
15:46 rue_house i hate it when you find out the code you been bug hunting for was overridden in another class
15:46 Squint when someone makes something that's actually significantly different I may move, but while they just make variations on a theme I'll stick around
15:47 rue_house Status_t strokeInit(stroke_t *this) {
15:47 rue_house this->data = NULL;
15:47 rue_house this->count = 0;
15:47 rue_house return OK;
15:47 rue_house }
15:48 rue_house I'v come up with a format for my C code thats working nicely
15:49 Squint that's basically doing C++ the hard way :p
15:49 rue_house na
15:50 Squint If there is a sonar range finder which has "PWM Output - 147uS/inch" does that mean I can rig it with a battery and a servo and get feedback from it without a microcontroller?
15:50 rue_house you know exactly what function was exectued
15:50 Squint I like polymorphism - I'm used to it - but I'm also used to having a debugger that steps in OK
15:50 Squint and I don't overuse it
16:17 rue_house hu?
16:17 rue_house freenode has a blog?
16:17 rue_house huh
16:19 rue_house hahaha ddos'd the blog site
16:21 katsmeow-afk cannot connect
16:22 rue_house no
16:22 katsmeow-afk no
16:22 rue_house the web server could not take the load
16:23 Steffanx Hehe
16:23 rue_house they are going ape about him doing that in #freenode
16:23 rue_house http://pastebin.com/Zn7Pqc2H <-- thats the message
16:24 Steffanx oh, my nick will survive
16:26 katsmeow-afk 893 nicks in #freenode ddosing with questions
16:27 rue_house no 890
16:27 Steffanx 891
16:27 rue_house seems they are gonna expire 6mo+ unused nicks
16:28 rue_house 892
16:29 katsmeow-afk 4:18:26pm 04/06/12 Friday Steffanx left #freenode : "Leaving" .
16:29 katsmeow-afk 4:18:43pm 04/06/12 Friday katsmeow-afk left #freenode : "leaving also" .
16:30 rue_house well that was funny
16:39 Steffanx Everybody is kongfu fighting!
16:42 rue_house n I'm writing a gesture library
16:46 Steffanx For what?
16:49 rue_house everything
16:50 rue_house I tend to write libraries when I keep comming across the same component I need for everything
16:55 katsmeow-afk http://designerthinking.com/images/F18%20in%20Control%20Zone.JPG
16:55 katsmeow-afk i'd hate to see one out of the Control Zone
16:55 Steffanx Tja
16:56 Steffanx Where still human and still make machines that fail once in a while
16:57 katsmeow-afk yeas, but the same error did this this morning : http://i.imgur.com/arcto.jpg
16:57 katsmeow-afk or last nite, i forget
16:57 Steffanx Yeah, I read about it
16:57 katsmeow-afk engine flameout, the turkey feathers are the same position in both crashes
17:08 katsmeow-afk i remember a F-18 takeoff, hugely prohibited, the pilot hit afterburner while still sitting still with brakes locked, the plane started sliding, he released brakes, rolled ~200ft, and pulled the nose up, dragged the feathers on the tarmac, and shot str8 up
17:10 katsmeow-afk the plane will do anything except what an F22 or F35 will do, including fly on one engine, but the time duration where one is shutting down is dangerous as heck
17:11 katsmeow-afk if the pilot is still trying to fly it like he has both engines, the plane will try to fly sideways and then upside down
17:11 Steffanx What kind of work you do you know all this katsmeow-afk ?
17:12 Steffanx or isn't it work related knowledge
17:12 katsmeow-afk navy brat
17:13 katsmeow-afk stepfather was a pilot, and i found ways to get onto the base
17:13 katsmeow-afk plus there's the internet
17:13 katsmeow-afk and many mil planes fly over me
17:13 Steffanx oh ok :)
17:14 Steffanx Anyway, good night
17:14 katsmeow-afk gnites
17:38 SolarNRG I think the USAAF have a top secret aircraft that isn't in the public domain besides the F22 and F35
17:39 SolarNRG We didn't know about the stealth helicopter and the stealth drone until after one crashed into
17:39 SolarNRG "bin laden's hideout" and Iran
17:40 sw0rdfish why you quoting 'bin laden's hideout'
17:42 sw0rdfish and yeah the F22 and F35 planes are already super cool super elite
17:42 sw0rdfish why would they want any better? no one else even has stealth
17:42 sw0rdfish planes at all
17:44 sw0rdfish with the exception of the 4.5 generation plane, Su-35 which kinda like almost has stealth tech... cuz it can jam radars
17:47 katsmeow-afk jamming the radars make it a very findable transmitter, and the usa has missiles specifically to find transmitters, so do the Russians
17:48 sw0rdfish oh ... so then NOTHING is superior
17:48 sw0rdfish to the F22's then
17:48 sw0rdfish I'm guessing the F22's can carry such missles
17:48 sw0rdfish missiles.
17:48 katsmeow-afk the news report says eyewitnesses said the plane took off and well prior to the crash had no engine sound,, i suspect they got one engine started and were trying to climb away, which would explain the fact they pancaked level with one engine in afterburner and one shut down
17:50 katsmeow-afk most humans don't know it, but same tendency to roll over exists in submarines too
17:50 katsmeow-afk subs are made to go fast when level and climbing and diving, but when turning they'll try to roll and either porpose or dive hard
17:51 katsmeow-afk if you pre-control, not be in a standard go-straight mode, rolls are avoidable, specially wth single-prop (or coaxial prop) designs
17:52 katsmeow-afk same witht he F-18, if you know one engine is out, you do not shove both throttles up, so the plane won't go into a roll
17:53 sw0rdfish I see.
17:53 sw0rdfish guess the pilot didn't know that.... or forgot...
17:53 katsmeow-afk there's a lot of youtube videos showing mil jets doing the death roll before crashing, not many showing a plane with any engine failure landing or crashing level
17:54 katsmeow-afk didn't know, most likely
17:54 katsmeow-afk you *know* instantly whent here's loss of power, you do not instantly know why
17:55 katsmeow-afk first responce is to give the engines more fuel, and in a dual engine setup, that can cause slew and then rollover
17:56 katsmeow-afk ever see a twin engine plane, engines out on the wings, fly with one engine out? the plane is crabbing sideways, and there's more lift on the running-engine side
17:56 katsmeow-afk it's often possible to fly it anyhow, if lightly loaded, but if heavy the plane will roll over and go nose-in
17:57 katsmeow-afk this is why the prolonged hoopla over that crash in the river in New York a few yrs back, in a way they were luck they hit so many birds, causing all engines out
17:58 katsmeow-afk a glider is more stable in a turn than a twin engine with one out
17:59 sw0rdfish I see.
17:59 katsmeow-afk from what i hear of Russian crashes in some planes, they flip and nosedown so fast the pilot has zero time to recover it
18:00 Tom_itx so he wouldn't feel a thing
18:00 katsmeow-afk the engines are further apart in some Russian planes, so the thrust axis is way off from COG , <boom>
18:01 katsmeow-afk Tom, at low altitude, the Russain plane may roll so fast and hit the ground so soon after, the pilot is someowhat unconscious from the forces involved
18:02 sw0rdfish what does a normal radar look for? to catch planes
18:02 katsmeow-afk just one reason most fast planes have engines bunched together, if they fail there's less chance of instant roll, which at high speeds can also rip the plane apart
18:03 katsmeow-afk like the B71, the B1, the Concorde, etc
18:03 katsmeow-afk all radar looks for echos
18:03 katsmeow-afk ditto sonar
18:03 katsmeow-afk ditto laser rangefinders
18:03 Squint it's a bright light and a little camera - its looking for bright spots
18:04 Squint camera is a bad choice - telescope is better
18:04 DanFrederiksen Squint, what are you trying to capture?
18:04 katsmeow-afk no,, camera is better, radar transmitters have tons of annoying side lobes spread wide
18:04 uint was answering "what does radar look
18:05 Squint but a narrow detection angle?
18:05 katsmeow-afk yeas, there's a lot of electronic cleanup going on
18:05 DanFrederiksen Squint, probably horizontally narrow, vertically wide
18:05 DanFrederiksen typically
18:06 katsmeow-afk there was some experiments going on, results top secret that even Tiggr cannot find them, wher the plane returns an echo, but tweaks the echo so it appears to be in a side lobe and is removed, the radar operator never sees it displayed
18:07 DanFrederiksen clever. if possible
18:07 katsmeow-afk in some radar, you can sync to the beam pulse train,a nd pre-echo , apparently showing up *behind* the radar with a negative distance
18:08 katsmeow-afk but that trick is easy to defeat
18:09 katsmeow-afk but like someone in the woods at night with a small battery flashlite, you shine the beam out and look for things that reflect light, such a trees, or that bear coming at you
18:10 katsmeow-afk or radar works with radio, sonar with sound, lidar with laser
18:11 Squint and if you can make your plane either absorb radar or reflect it all at an angle there is no bright spot
18:11 katsmeow-afk right
18:11 katsmeow-afk oops, i said B71, i meant B70
18:12 Squint and nothing would confuse a laser range finder looking for you more than a 45 degree mirror :)
18:12 katsmeow-afk and that's why some planes have the tails tilted
18:14 Squint I wonder if you could spoof a fake doppler on the radar so it gave the wrong velocity back?
18:14 katsmeow-afk yeas
18:19 katsmeow-afk "It was later discovered that flying faster made radar detection much more difficult due to an effect known as the blip-to-scan ratio,"
18:20 katsmeow-afk basically, the blip looked like random noise, and was eliminated by the display cleanup
18:20 katsmeow-afk that was in the 1950's, you won't fool anyone today
18:26 Squint unless you go very VERY fast :p
18:26 Squint anyway - past midnight - NN all
19:18 sw0rdfish hmmmm
19:18 sw0rdfish I need wireless headphones
19:20 e_house cuts the wire of a set of headphones and hands it to sw0rdf
19:20 rue_house the reception is spotty tho
19:21 sw0rdfish LoL!
19:21 rue_house you have to be really close to the source
19:22 weebl gah! just spent 45 minutes figuring out why multiplying with a gain ended up as 0 every time
19:22 weebl an int of 0.5 = 0
19:22 weebl fml
19:23 rue_house you could have come out 1 on that
19:23 rue_house I think you should have
19:23 weebl comes out as 0
19:23 rue_house huh
19:23 rue_house can yo test 0.500000001 for me?
19:25 rue_house a = 0.5000001; comes out 0
19:25 rue_house a = 0.8000001; comes out 0
19:25 rue_house well, that is just wrong
19:25 weebl its most likely something odd with arduino as it always is
19:25 rue_house no, ,its C
19:25 weebl rounds down
19:25 weebl doesnt it?
19:25 rue_house gcc uses trunc instead of rounding
19:25 rue_house thats bad
19:27 sw0rdfish lmfao
19:27 sw0rdfish weebl, yeah I just learnt that the other day on the first chapter of k&r
19:28 weebl I am a terrible programmer
19:28 weebl I make hshit work by hacking my way to it
19:28 sw0rdfish weebl, can you link me to your univ. program plz?
19:28 rue_house stay at it, the hacks will lead you to things others never thought of
19:28 weebl I can pastebin it to you
19:29 sw0rdfish pastebin? whata?... I just wanted to see its web page to see the courses it has and what they teach
19:29 sw0rdfish ..etc
19:30 sw0rdfish weebl, ^^
19:30 weebl aaah, sorry I thought you meant my actual code that I'm owrking on
19:30 weebl aber.ac.uk
19:30 sw0rdfish hey can bluetooth devices connect to more than one bluetooth device? or somethin
19:30 sw0rdfish weebl, oh lol, no I said "univ" program
19:30 weebl if you wanna do more hands on robotics this uni isnt the best though
19:31 weebl sw0rdfish: yeah, bluetooth scatternet
19:31 sw0rdfish scatternet? weebl
19:32 weebl I think thats the name
19:32 weebl http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scatternet
19:32 sw0rdfish well tbh
19:32 sw0rdfish lol yeah I found that page already weebl bro :D
19:33 weebl say if you want loads of little thermometers in your house to report the temp. to a server but each sensor doesnt have the range
19:33 weebl you would set up a scatternet
19:33 sw0rdfish tbh I just want me and my friend to use my nokia at the same time to listen to stuff.... now I gotta know before ordering anything if it'll give audio output from the normal output port AND to a bluetooth headset at the same time.
19:34 weebl that wouldnt work afaik, as you pair the headset to the phone
19:35 sw0rdfish well damn the radio headphones I found on ebay are a bit expensive for me
19:35 sw0rdfish as I'm planning to get arduino when I finish my robotics book, as you already know weebl :)
19:36 weebl yeah
19:36 weebl there are some good starter kits out there
19:36 weebl with some sensors and bits to get you started
19:36 weebl just to learn how to use things
19:38 sw0rdfish weebl, which one is it... http://www.aber.ac.uk/en/departments/academic-department/
19:39 weebl department of computer science :P
19:39 weebl then you should find ai & robotics
19:39 sw0rdfish I gotta stop researching as to which to pick actually... lol I don't wanna end up NOT able to choose what to get.... there are sooo many kits and mcu's and sheet...
19:39 sw0rdfish cool^^
19:40 katsmeow-afk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6pPwP3s7s4&feature=relmfu
19:41 weebl sw0rdfish: start with this: http://www.robonor.no/mage/default/arduino/for-nybegynnere/arduino-inventors-kit.html
19:43 weebl should get you started
19:47 sw0rdfish which version of arduino UNO do you think that has, weebl?
19:47 weebl no clue
19:47 weebl shouldnt make a massive difference though....
19:49 weebl they all have the same atmega chip
19:51 sw0rdfish oh I see.
19:52 sw0rdfish Lagt til 15. juni 2010
19:52 sw0rdfish well let me check when the latest version of arduino came out ^^
19:59 sw0rdfish hmmmmm
20:01 sw0rdfish Atmega16U2 and Atmega8U2
20:01 sw0rdfish ^^ thats the difference between arduino uno r2 and r3
20:02 SolarNRG You'll need a PCB for those, it isn't like DIP or ZIP technology
20:03 SolarNRG ZIF I mean
20:07 rue_house Zero Inline Package
20:07 rue_house 'randomly scattered pins reduce cross talk between pins'
20:10 Tom_itx sw0rdfish i think they figured out the 8 was too small
20:11 Tom_itx rue_house what are you up to tonight?
20:11 Tom_itx did you take a day off?
20:14 rue_house worked half the day
20:16 sw0rdfish Tom_itx, yeah
20:16 sw0rdfish think I'ma get the small stuff one by one from china or somethin
20:17 sw0rdfish I dunno I'll calculate the costs and stuff, and decide.
20:30 weebl sw0rdfish: that chip is just the microcontroller that converts usb signals to signals the arduino understands
20:30 weebl its replaced the FTDI chip used on older versions
20:30 sw0rdfish I thought it meant....the Atmega8U2 bits... and Atmega16U2 16 bits?
20:30 sw0rdfish weebl, no?
20:31 weebl to quote the arduino website: "The Uno differs from all preceding boards in that it does not use the FTDI USB-to-serial driver chip. Instead, it features the Atmega16U2 (Atmega8U2 up to version R2) programmed as a USB-to-serial converter."
20:32 weebl they all still use the ATmega328 chip as the actual controler
20:33 weebl the only arduinos that I know does not use the 328 series is the mega ones
20:37 Triffid_Hunter sw0rdfish: no it's flash size, not data bus width. all these atmegas are 8-bit
20:39 DanFrederiksen anyone considered designing motor controllers for CNC and robots based on RC brushless motors and power electronics? add some kind of encoder etc
20:39 DanFrederiksen modular, simple, powerful.
20:39 DanFrederiksen should have been done long ago
20:39 DanFrederiksen laters
20:57 rue_house V - 0 +
20:57 rue_house A
20:57 rue_house - < { )
20:57 rue_house 0 - 0 +
20:57 rue_house + ( } >
20:58 rue_house between acceleration and velocity there are 9 conditions
20:58 Tom_itx rue_house what is this new thing you're after?
20:58 rue_house that group of 9 characters can be ascii reps for them
20:58 rue_house Tom_itx, in 2 days I ran into 9 instances of needing a gesture library
20:59 rue_house so I sat down with a tutor and we worked out a method we think will work
20:59 m_itx gives rue_house a ges
20:59 rue_house so i'm just coding it up
20:59 Tom_itx who's helpin ya?
20:59 rue_house rue
20:59 rue_house he knows more than he lets on :)
20:59 Tom_itx ya you're the only one that seems to get along with him
21:00 rue_house sometimes
21:00 Tom_itx i usually get about halfway into something with him and he bails
21:00 rue_house he distracts easily
21:00 rue_house you have to catch him for a session
21:01 rue_house if you pause for too long ya lose him
21:02 Tom_itx i've given up trying to learn stuff that's too far over my head
21:02 rue_house you need to nibble away at the corners of what you know
21:02 rue_house technology dosn't work to well if you try to just dive inot themiddle
21:08 tsmeow-afk falls in thru the middle sky
21:09 e_house offers a han
21:09 rue_house well hi there
21:09 tsmeow-afk moans and looks like she did that on pur
21:09 rue_house hows the roof lookin?
21:09 katsmeow-afk rusty
21:09 e_house rephrases in amer
21:10 rue_house hows the ruf lookin?
21:10 sw0rdfish ahhh, thanks Triffid_Hunter for clarifying that.
21:10 katsmeow-afk Triffid_Hunter said something?
21:11 weebl sw0rdfish: the flash size of that chip makes no difference that you're likely to notice anything
21:11 rue_house ssh, hes gonna feel like an idiot when he scrolls down
21:11 weebl *anyway
21:12 sw0rdfish oh
21:12 weebl as its not the chip you're programming
21:12 sw0rdfish heh...
21:12 weebl as I said its just a converter from USB to serial
21:12 weebl older arduino models used an FTDI chip instead
21:13 weebl the chip that matters the most is the ATmega328
21:14 weebl thats the "brain"
21:14 moriarty "brain"
21:14 moriarty sorry couldn't resist
21:14 moriarty :)
21:15 sw0rdfish lol
21:15 weebl I have a bad habit of describing stuff in baby language
21:15 sw0rdfish the one from robonor is usable then.
21:16 weebl oh yeah, nothing wrong with it
21:18 weebl they propably just changed the chip from the 8 to 16 as the 8 got out of stock
21:19 sw0rdfish sparkfun's website's description makes it sound like the 8 version
21:19 sw0rdfish but anyhow.
21:20 weebl makes no diference
21:20 weebl an arduino uno is an arduino uno
21:20 weebl all arduinos are compatible with the latest IDE anyways
21:21 weebl at least all official
21:23 rue_house I think I need a set of trinary functions in my library
21:23 rue_house 0 and 1 are so limiting, I really need a -1 too
21:24 Tom_itx funny what intel can do with an 0 and a 1
21:26 weebl its disturbing IMO
21:27 weebl I have made 1byte memory using transistors
21:28 weebl just the ammount of transistors they use is instane
21:28 rue_house weebl, what kinda memory cells did you use?
21:28 weebl *insane
21:28 rue_house if you use steel rings the result is non-volatile memory you know
21:29 rue_house sweet, prescence to character works
21:29 katsmeow-afk steel is prolly hard to use, the memory rngs used by nasa were ferrite, iirc
21:30 m_itx gives rue_house an analog pc with an A
21:30 rue_house iiiik, its DRIPPING!
21:30 weebl rue_house: I cant remember atm, it was ages ago. all I remember is the clusterfuck of transistors
21:30 rue_house hmm
21:31 rue_house I need a mouse interface so I can watch it track
21:31 katsmeow-afk if i were to make a transistor memeory nowadys, i'd build it around tiney mosfets
21:31 rue_house hmm
21:31 katsmeow-afk early transistor memory were 2 to 5 bipolars, i think you can make a semi-static now with less parts and use less power
21:31 rue_house I was going to say I'd use capacitors
21:31 rue_house but ya know
21:32 katsmeow-afk the gate of the mosfet being the capacitor :-)
21:32 rue_house hmm
21:32 Triffid_Hunter yah, gate is capacitor, channel is how you read the value out
21:33 rue_house how about a loop of optic cable?
21:33 rue_house say, 1km or so
21:34 Triffid_Hunter heh delay line memory
21:34 rue_house yea
21:34 Triffid_Hunter random access is slow with that, have to wait for the appropriate bit to come back through, like a hard drive
21:34 Triffid_Hunter plus the capacity per cost is rather low, that's why you don't see it anymore
21:34 rue_house 3.335641e-06 s
21:34 rue_house loop time
21:35 rue_house 3.3us
21:35 rue_house did I count my zeros right?
21:35 Triffid_Hunter rue_house: how about capacity? how many bits can you stuff into 1km of optic fibre without losing any after recycling them a few billion times?
21:35 rue_house electronic repeater
21:35 rue_house in the loop
21:36 rue_house you would only need 167m of 6 strand optic fiber
21:36 rue_house for 1km
21:37 Triffid_Hunter sure, so what's the bitrate? at 1Gb/s you're storing a mere 3.3 kilobits
21:37 rue_house hmm
21:37 Triffid_Hunter with 3.3us seek time, pretty poor compared to modern solid state memories
21:37 rue_house so 10G is 33kb
21:37 rue_house hmm
21:38 Triffid_Hunter yep and I don't think 10Gb/s stuff is particularly cheap
21:38 rue_house funny, it worked on my 1.5Thz processor...
21:38 rue_house hmm
21:40 katsmeow-afk yeas, but that was 5 years afrom now, rue
21:40 rue_house oh yea, I worked out I can do that electrically now..
21:40 rue_house I was supposed to have built the 500Mhz optic processor about 12 years ago
21:40 rue_house I have the supplies around here soemwhere
21:43 rue_house iirc rue last said that I could PROBABLY do it with electricity instead of light
21:44 rue_house next thing for this gesture library is a mouse interface, and for that I have to make an SDL app, so I'm gonna go see if I can make a resistor based 1Thz logic gate
21:47 rue_shop I see why he said probably
21:48 rue_shop I'm gonna need a long wire to accomidate the wavelength of a 1Mhz signal
21:48 rue_shop whats the wavelength of 37Mhz?
21:52 home what?!
21:52 rue_shop hmm I think I can go up to 166Mhz
21:52 rue_shop maaaabe
21:53 home rue_shop: you are lucky
21:54 rue_shop nope I can go to 80Mhz
21:55 rue_shop huh, didn't think I'd have to dial up a magnetron to implement rues stuff
21:55 home you are lucky
21:55 home you have a shop
21:55 home I dont
21:55 rue_shop mmm
21:55 rue_shop I didn't always ya know
21:56 katsmeow-afk build robot, tell robot to build shop
21:56 rue_shop I havn't built that robot yet
21:56 katsmeow-afk rue is one of those rare beings born shopless
21:56 home i hate you all
21:56 home me want shop :/
21:56 home and kinect 0_0
21:57 rue_shop I need a freq gen with a wavelength of about 6cm, and a scope that can see the signal from it
21:57 rue_shop :/ 5Ghz
21:58 rue_shop arg
21:59 rue_shop kat, how do I make a 5ghz osc?
21:59 katsmeow-afk you don't
21:59 katsmeow-afk you make a lower freq and multiply it up
21:59 rue_shop but but, thats the slowest I can make rues processor go
21:59 home damn it
21:59 katsmeow-afk altho you could make a delay line that's inverting and resonant, and tap that
22:00 home I have no idea what you guys talking about lol
22:00 rue_shop I dont think I can get a high enough Q to get 5Hz resonant
22:00 rue_shop 5Ghz
22:01 rue_shop whats the klystron I have good for? Thz or Ghz?
22:01 rue_shop the magnetron is ~1Ghz yes?
22:01 rue_shop hey, where did my magnetron go?
22:02 rue_shop and WHERE IS MY RADIOACTIVE CALIBRATION SOURCE!?
22:02 katsmeow-afk ya know, it's not my fault if Tiggr cannot find data when websites give out urls like <li class="cat-item cat-item-5442"><a href="http://www.differencebetween.net/cibet/" rel="bookmark" title="Difference Between Nepal and Tibet"></a>
22:02 rue_shop found the magnetron
22:02 katsmeow-afk she's hitting several 404 per mnute
22:02 rue_shop one day I'll find the calib src for the gieger counter
22:03 rue_shop I think its .4mR
22:03 rue_shop hahaha
22:04 rue_shop whts the wavelength of a 650nm laser?
22:04 rue_shop :)
22:04 katsmeow-afk 650nm
22:04 rue_shop rrrrly....
22:05 rue_shop sure its not .7um ?
22:05 ace4016 ...
22:05 home I want to do make a laser tracking system
22:05 rue_shop thats ALMOST 1mm
22:05 rue_shop hah I'll take that back thanks
22:05 ace4016 home, so...you want to make a diode?
22:06 home no
22:06 rue_shop does he have some zink to make it with?
22:06 ace4016 zinc8
22:06 rue_shop ooo isotopes
22:06 ace4016 it's not fun unless it's radioacive
22:07 rue_shop one day I'll fix one of the gieger counters
22:07 home I want a ginger counter :D
22:08 katsmeow-afk lotta places sold out after Fukushima
22:08 rue_shop .7um is 2.7559055e-05 inches
22:08 katsmeow-afk i know one place was selling 500 an hour
22:08 home Welcome nif!
22:09 rue_shop .7um is about 1/1000 of a turn of a 6-32 screw
22:10 rue_shop its about 1/900 of a turn of a 4-40 screw
22:10 home wtf
22:10 home you can measure that?!
22:10 home HOW
22:10 rue_shop laser diffraction
22:11 rue_shop but its just too small to build
22:12 rue_shop no I cant build this with the tools I have available right now
22:13 rue_shop !seen robotgrrl
22:13 tobbor RobotGrrl was last seen in #robotics on Aug 29 12:06 2011
22:14 rue_shop well, drat, I need a 5ghz supply
22:16 katsmeow-afk so make a resonant LC for 5Ghz, and pulse it at 10% duty cycle 1Ghz
22:16 ace4016 build one
22:16 ace4016 you can make the caps and inductors from traces
22:17 home wow
22:17 home WOW
22:17 katsmeow-afk for 5ghz, you pretty much must make them from traces on the pcb
22:19 Triffid_Hunter have to use special pcb material too, FR4 is bad at those frequencies
22:19 katsmeow-afk teflon
22:19 rue_house I just want to breadboard a simple circuit
22:20 Triffid_Hunter lol, breadboard + 5GHz = fail
22:21 ace4016 breadboard over 1MHz is a bit sketchy
22:21 rue_house maybe for digital signals
22:22 ace4016 nyet
22:22 rue_house I'm sure there isn't more than 20pf between the contacts
22:23 rue_house and you wouldn't lose more than 1/5 wavelength across a connector
22:23 ace4016 i mnea, you could do some MHz stuff but depending on your application, it won't be reliable for testing
22:23 rue_house :)
22:23 rue_house hey, I wonder if 2.4Ghz is workable, there are LOTS of gens in that range
22:23 ace4016 that's when you get large discrepancies from breadboard to prototype
22:24 rue_house wifi rf has a local osc yes?
22:25 ace4016 yea; and bluetooth, and zigbee...
22:25 rue_house prolly 1.8V levels?
22:25 rue_house I wonder how I isolate the local osc of a wifi modem
22:26 rue_house I wonder if its just a blackbox chip
22:26 rue_house wavelength would be about 10 or 12cm, that would be workable
22:26 Triffid_Hunter probably a PLL multiplying from a 12MHz crystal or something with the modern ones
22:27 rue_house this its disrete?
22:27 rue_house oh duh
22:28 rue_house if I cant make the freq work, I should just slow down the speed of light
22:28 rue_house to change the wavelength
22:28 ace4016 you can do that simply by using a different material :P
22:28 rue_house I know
22:29 rue_house so I want a 80Mhz signal to have a wavelength of about 10cm
22:29 e_house scratches his
22:30 rue_house no
22:30 rue_house I can rephrase
22:30 rue_house I want a 10cm wavelength for an electical signal
22:30 rue_house no
22:30 rue_house its better
22:31 rue_house I want to stall a 80Mhz signal by 1/2 its wavelength
22:31 katsmeow-afk stall it?
22:31 rue_house on a breadbaoard
22:31 rue_house yes, I need to delay the signal 1/2 wavelength
22:31 rue_house no active components
22:32 katsmeow-afk delaying it is easy, stretching it out isn't
22:32 rue_house the signal being a constant freq
22:32 katsmeow-afk get a 1Gsps adc chip, sample it at 1Ghz, play it back as slowly as you want
22:32 ace4016 frequency divider? PLL?
22:33 katsmeow-afk freq devider and pll destroy he data on the carrier
22:33 rue_house 1/2 wavelength with no active components
22:33 rue_house its not a carrier
22:33 rue_house just a freq
22:33 katsmeow-afk then pll it
22:33 katsmeow-afk nope, that's active
22:33 rue_house I cant use light cause the wavelengh is too short to control with what I have
22:33 katsmeow-afk can't
22:34 rue_house I wonder what the longest workable light wavelength is
22:34 katsmeow-afk you can delay it with a length of coax, but that won't stretch it
22:34 rue_house blue is slow isn't it?
22:34 ace4016 10cm is around 3Ghz...pretty sure you can get a 3GHz zource or circuit :P
22:34 rue_house no I just need to delay it
22:34 katsmeow-afk blue is highest light freq
22:34 rue_house oh, so ir is low?
22:34 ace4016 highest visible light
22:35 rue_house so I wont get much under 650nm
22:35 katsmeow-afk ok, coax delays signals by ~1ft per nanosec, just cut a piece the amount of time you wanna delay
22:35 katsmeow-afk note i said ~ , so cut it long and trim it down by measuing the delay
22:35 rue_house I'd need like 50m for 80Mhz
22:35 rue_house which would prolly introduce about 2db of loss
22:35 ace4016 it'lld delay the signal, but won't change the frequency or anytihng
22:36 rue_house no, delaying a sine wave by 1/2 l is all I need
22:37 rue_house its so much easier when the wavelength is like 1cm, I'm choosing about 10cm for direct workability but 80Mhz is the highest I can do in the shop
22:37 rue_house oh
22:37 rue_house haha
22:38 rue_house rue just mumbled
22:38 rue_house I can delay one copy of the signal -90 and the other +90 with inductors/caps
22:38 rue_house then I have my 180
22:39 katsmeow-afk a transformer would do you better, i suspect
22:39 rue_house sorry, I didn't express the underlying goal well
22:39 rue_house good point kat
22:39 katsmeow-afk oh, delay, nm
22:39 katsmeow-afk you never said invert, you said delay
22:39 rue_house delay is good, but invert is ok
22:40 rue_house yo cant invert with light
22:40 rue_house ok
22:40 katsmeow-afk yeas you can
22:40 katsmeow-afk light has phase
22:40 rue_house yea
22:40 ace4016 you can use lenses for that
22:41 rue_house you cant make a light inverter that produces light when none goes in and dosn't when light does
22:41 ace4016 they've basically convolutions
22:41 katsmeow-afk i thought yo wanted phase inversions
22:41 rue_house I do
22:41 katsmeow-afk google light polarity
22:42 rue_house I like your transformer idea
22:43 rue_house I think I can rewind some IF cans for 1:1
22:44 furrywolf what do you call a ball bearing ball joint?
22:45 rue_house expensive
22:45 katsmeow-afk heim joint
22:45 furrywolf aren't heim joints bushed, not ball?
22:45 katsmeow-afk nope
22:46 katsmeow-afk http://duckduckgo.com/Rod_end_bearing
22:46 katsmeow-afk you can bush them, but it's a speerical bushing
22:46 furrywolf odd. I know the things sold as heim joints in the bin at the local hardware store have no little balls in them...
22:47 katsmeow-afk car tie rod ends, and ball joints, are strong and sometimes cheap, else look on ebay
22:47 katsmeow-afk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_end_bearing
22:47 furrywolf car parts are way too large and way way way too stiff.
22:48 katsmeow-afk http://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-REV-SKIDOO-RENEGADE-ADRENALINE-800-MXZ-SPORT-UPPER-ARM-HIEM-JOINT-LINK-/150755260449?pt=Snowmobile_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2319b6b821
22:49 katsmeow-afk http://www.ebay.com/itm/ECON-1-4-x-1-4-28-FEMALE-LH-ROD-ENDS-HEIM-JOINTS-HEIMS-/370182591763?pt=Race_Car_Parts&vxp=mtr&hash=item56309a1513
22:50 furrywolf I'm looking for around 3/16" hole, 1/4" shaft, and very very low friction.
22:50 furrywolf all the ones I've seen are just brass bushes...
22:51 sw0rdfish hey rue_house, you use arduino too right?
22:51 Tom_itx no
22:51 katsmeow-afk http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-28-heim-joint-tie-rod-end-/150791727375?pt=Race_Car_Parts&vxp=mtr&hash=item231be3290f
22:51 furrywolf nothing I'm finding says they're ball, just bushed.
22:52 katsmeow-afk http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tie-Rod-End-NOS-pt-2-6-12-NEW-B4-/360432343710?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53eb711a9e
22:52 furrywolf yes, I know how to search ebay too. I'm not finding anything suggesting they're ball bearings inside of there.
22:52 katsmeow-afk well then you should kill me now
22:53 furrywolf I can't do /kill on freenode. :(
22:54 furrywolf this is, in fact, the only irc network I've regularly used and not been able to. heh.
22:55 katsmeow-afk http://silverdoctors.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/tungsten-filled-1-kilo-gold-bar.html
22:55 sw0rdfish Tom_itx, oh?
22:55 katsmeow-afk maybe not, but i am telling you they are ball joints, but they do not have ball bearings supports inside holding the ball joint
22:56 furrywolf which isn't what I need. heh.
22:57 furrywolf I can see how to build one, therefore it must exist, but I don't know what it's called. :)
22:57 furrywolf a sphere with a rod attached, in a mostly-spherical cage with balls, inside a two-part cup...
22:58 furrywolf I'll need a part that's small, compact, and can pivot perfectly smoothly while under ~1000lbs of force.
22:59 furrywolf twice a second, all day.
22:59 katsmeow-afk http://www.ebay.com/itm/Conveyor-Roller-2-holes-Flange-Mount-Ball-Transfer-Unit-/270939274298?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f153d3c3a
23:00 furrywolf my first thought was a small universal joint/gimbal setup, but that's more parts. might have to do that if what I want doesn't exist.
23:01 rue_house ahhh a nice hot chocolate, and I think I'v burned everything down from my toung
23:01 rue_house (inclusive)
23:01 katsmeow-afk http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=7015927
23:02 furrywolf damnit, and my wifi link is flaking out.
23:02 katsmeow-afk http://duckduckgo.com/?q=Single+Ball+Transfer
23:02 katsmeow-afk furrywolf, i gave you 3 links
23:02 katsmeow-afk click on one
23:02 furrywolf was a nice healthy packet loss when I started this conversation, 14% and rising.
23:02 katsmeow-afk http://www.ebay.com/itm/Conveyor-Roller-2-holes-Flange-Mount-Ball-Transfer-Unit-/270939274298?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f153d3c3a
23:02 katsmeow-afk http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=7015927
23:02 furrywolf yes, I tried. that's when I found out my internet connection had started flaking out. :P
23:03 katsmeow-afk http://duckduckgo.com/?q=Single+Ball+Transfer
23:03 furrywolf the conveyor ball is not what I need.
23:03 katsmeow-afk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_transfer_unit
23:03 rue_house kat I get the impression you have given up on google too
23:03 katsmeow-afk then i do not know what you want
23:03 furrywolf I need something similar in shape to a car ball joint, but smaller, and with balls instead of a bushing.
23:04 furrywolf that's a ball joint like used for suspension shape, not a tie rod end shape.
23:04 katsmeow-afk you canuse it inverted
23:05 katsmeow-afk you want the ball roller, but you want to attach to the ball and it's normal mount?
23:05 rue_house at some time making rice became a laborious process
23:05 furrywolf I want something like -o:) yay ascii art. :)
23:06 furrywolf a ball joint with ball bearings between the ball and the cup, rather than a bush.
23:06 katsmeow-afk i am not seeing a huge reason for that,, if the purpose is to avoid friction, may i suggest you check the fricton oft he tie rod ends of any used car?
23:06 furrywolf car ball joints have way too much friction. I even have a few around here, new and used, from various projects.
23:07 katsmeow-afk i had some with slop in them, 100k miles, zero friction
23:07 rue_house did you find an answer for your pump?
23:07 furrywolf heh, I have one in my parts bin with a good eighth inch of slop.
23:08 katsmeow-afk all i can say is get one of the conveyor balls, disassemble, drill the ball for a stud, and reassemble
23:08 furrywolf that's about ten times too large. :)
23:08 katsmeow-afk else, make your own from scratch
23:08 furrywolf I thought of that. heh.
23:09 katsmeow-afk you can get all plastic ones
23:10 furrywolf normal hydraulic pumps use plain bushed or steel on steel ball joints when they used fixed attachment to a rotating swashplate instead of sliding shoes on a fixed one... but, for my application, I don't think they'll work. the rods between the pistons and the swashplate have ~1000lbs of force on them, and at low speed, they're going to bind instead of ride on film like normal...
23:10 katsmeow-afk http://www.omnitrack.co.uk/images/products/LP.png
23:11 katsmeow-afk drilling them yourself will be a huge problem, they are hardened
23:11 katsmeow-afk to de-harden, you'll warp them, then warp again to re-hardedn
23:11 rue_house yay I got a paired down sdl thing working
23:11 furrywolf then I thought I could use a small universal joint/gimbal setup on each end of the rod, but that would be 8 ball bearing units per piston, an unacceptable cost/machining project. then I figured they must make ball bearing ball joints...
23:12 rue_house furrywolf, WAAAAIT a sec, your not making a 12' mecha are you?
23:12 furrywolf ohh, found ball bearing heim joints. they're just $$$$$.
23:12 furrywolf rue_house: mecha is a big robot thing, right? no, I'm not.
23:13 rue_house <furrywolf> what do you call a ball bearing ball joint?
23:13 rue_house <rue_house> expensive
23:13 rue_house gooood
23:13 katsmeow-afk http://www.omnitrack.co.uk/images/nav.jpg <<== expand at the bottom of the blue portion
23:14 katsmeow-afk use a universal joint?
23:17 furrywolf bleh, wifi connection now sucking too badly to keep searching.
23:17 katsmeow-afk what is the ball bearing ball joint called?
23:17 rue_house how far is it to the wifi router?
23:18 furrywolf ~1/2 mile.
23:18 furrywolf maybe 3/4
23:18 rue_house are you using pringles directional antennas?
23:18 furrywolf I'm using a 24dbi grid.
23:18 furrywolf the problem is an intermittant interference source.
23:19 rue_house maybe you should run a riber line
23:19 rue_house finer
23:19 furrywolf that I haven't been able to locate, eliminate, or work around.
23:19 katsmeow-afk what is the ball bearing ball joint called?
23:19 rue_house fiber
23:19 furrywolf katsmeow-afk: it was just a ball bearing heim joint
23:19 furrywolf didn't give it a name.
23:19 furrywolf seems heim joints come in both, and I've just only seen the cheap ones.
23:20 katsmeow-afk No results found for "ball bearing heim joint".
23:20 furrywolf when the connection dies, the reported signal jumps up 5-10db, so it's interference that the router can't tell apart from the signal.
23:20 katsmeow-afk microwave?
23:25 katsmeow-afk i have a bad feeling you are missing soemthing, furrywolf: the lubericaton to the balls in the swashplate
23:26 katsmeow-afk you float the ball up on high psi oil
23:26 katsmeow-afk same as crankshaft bearings
23:26 katsmeow-afk same as boat propellor shaft thrust bearings
23:26 furrywolf that would need a seperate forced lubrication system.
23:26 katsmeow-afk yeas, cheaper than what you are trying to do
23:27 katsmeow-afk and prolly last longer, considering what you want to do
23:27 katsmeow-afk you'd haveto float it down as well, to pull the piston, if needed
23:30 katsmeow-afk you could save a lil money if you use the same high pressure to float the swashplate, instead of bearings
23:31 furrywolf it looks like your original suggestion of heim joints was best... it's just hard to find ones that use balls instead of bushes.
23:32 katsmeow-afk i think you'd need some with zerk fittings, and connect oil there
23:33 katsmeow-afk if your connecting rods are tubing, praps yo can bleed oil off the piston
23:33 furrywolf well, the prototype will probably just end up with plain ball joints, since they seem to be the only thing easily available... then I can see how much friction they add.
23:34 katsmeow-afk if you don't keep constant lube, they'll loosen up fast, but then they'll wear badly if you don't lube them
23:34 furrywolf they'll be immersed in hydraulic fluid.
23:34 katsmeow-afk ok
23:35 furrywolf real designs rely on the quick movement to keep a film layer under them, but that won't work at such low rpm.
23:35 katsmeow-afk i never heard of a entire swashplate in oil,, or the undersides of the pistons immersed in oil either
23:35 katsmeow-afk both ends of the connecting rod need to be hiems
23:36 katsmeow-afk you know, right?
23:36 furrywolf yes
23:36 katsmeow-afk k
23:36 furrywolf since nothing lines up neatly once the plate is at an angle. :)
23:36 rue_house the motion tracker seems to think the mouse keeps stopping
23:36 katsmeow-afk oil lines can put the oil where you need it most
23:36 furrywolf every design I've ever seen has the entire housing filled with unpressurized oil.
23:36 katsmeow-afk with pistons moving in and out of it? no way
23:37 furrywolf http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6675478-0-display.jpg there's a similar product...
23:38 katsmeow-afk still high friction, it's not recirculating ball system
23:38 furrywolf I'm envisioning something like that, but with a rod on only one side, and the sphere continuing on the other.
23:38 furrywolf it doesn't need to be.
23:38 katsmeow-afk beats bushings i spose
23:38 furrywolf it's only wobbling back and forth, not continually rotating. no need to recirculate the balls.
23:39 katsmeow-afk i think you are on the wrong track,, there's a reason roller bearings and pressurised bushings exist
23:39 katsmeow-afk balls have pinpoint contact areas for the load
23:40 rue_house I ned to mek it less acceleration sensitive
23:40 furrywolf for roller bearings, I'd need to go back to my original design of using a small u-joint at each end of the rod.
23:40 tsmeow-afk pours molasses on rue's m
23:40 rue_house fn trackerUpdate(int x, moveTracker_t * tracker) {
23:40 rue_house int v, a;
23:40 rue_house
23:40 rue_house v = tracker->xo - x;
23:40 rue_house a = tracker->vo - v;
23:40 rue_house
23:40 rue_house tracker->xo = x;
23:40 rue_house tracker->vo = v;
23:41 rue_house
23:41 rue_house tracker->update.vel = SIGN(v);
23:41 rue_house tracker->update.accel = SIGN(a);
23:41 rue_house
23:41 rue_house return OK;
23:41 rue_house }
23:41 rue_house :)
23:41 katsmeow-afk OH MY EYES!!!
23:41 rrywolf gets out a roll of duct
23:41 rue_house it picks up TINY velocity changes and claims acceleration
23:41 katsmeow-afk velocity change IS acceleration
23:41 rue_house yes but I want it to percieve less
23:42 katsmeow-afk furry, if you make your own joints, you can make up a 3-bearing universal
23:43 katsmeow-afk the gotcha is it won't have freedeom to twist
23:43 furrywolf I want to avoid making my own univerals. figure 5 cylinders, each with 8 bearings...
23:43 katsmeow-afk you'll still need a heim in the piston, or a swivel somewhere
23:44 katsmeow-afk yeas, and that whole heavy cylinder block
23:45 furrywolf I wonder how delrin inserts would hold up...
23:45 katsmeow-afk at 1000lbs, poorly
23:45 furrywolf yeah, that's my thought too.
23:46 katsmeow-afk man if i didn't know all this stuff, i'd be as useless as people believe i am!
23:46 furrywolf figure a quarter square inch surface area per piston, which is quite small, would be 1000lbs at 4000psi max rated pressure...
23:46 katsmeow-afk no
23:46 katsmeow-afk be closer to 500lbs
23:47 katsmeow-afk 1/4 sq inch is 1/16 an sq inch
23:47 furrywolf a quarter square inch is a quarter square inch, not a quarter inch square. :P
23:47 furrywolf that's 0.25 in^2.
23:47 furrywolf not (0.25 in)^2
23:47 katsmeow-afk in a SQUARE inch, there's 16 1/4's
23:48 katsmeow-afk oh,, you meant it different, ok
23:48 furrywolf ... no, there's 16 1/16ths. :P
23:48 furrywolf otherwise you have four. :)
23:48 katsmeow-afk no, a square inch is 4 1/4 wide and 4 1/4's tall
23:48 katsmeow-afk 4x4 = 16
23:48 furrywolf I mean exactly what I said. A quarter of a square inch of surface area.
23:49 katsmeow-afk that's ~1/2 inch dia piston then?
23:49 furrywolf not a quarter inch square. the order of the wording matters.
23:49 furrywolf yes.
23:49 katsmeow-afk ok
23:49 Triffid_Hunter no-one uses (0.25 in)^2, that's just confusing.. 1/4in^2 = a square with 1/2in sides, ie 1/2in * 1/2in
23:50 furrywolf Triffid_Hunter: yes. :)
23:50 katsmeow-afk sorry, sheesh
23:50 furrywolf I thought I was being perfectly clear...
23:51 katsmeow-afk ok, i have not had dinner, i'd like to plead "hungry"
23:51 furrywolf in any case, the point is that the thrust is quite a bit higher than a layperson might expect.
23:51 katsmeow-afk and i am multitasking, got two miners going for Tiggr
23:51 katsmeow-afk both took a lot of my time to deal witht he bad webpages
23:51 katsmeow-afk i agree
23:51 rue_house the data is a lot more noisy than I thoght
23:51 katsmeow-afk i agree
23:52 furrywolf a tiny part, only a bit over a half inch around, will have a thousand pounds of force on it. a bigger pump would be even higher...
23:52 katsmeow-afk i think the trust is high enough you will not be happy with ball bearings
23:53 furrywolf my original idea was a small (really small!) u-joint on each end of the rod.
23:53 furrywolf which would have roller bearings
23:53 katsmeow-afk need a heavy X tho, even with smallish bearings
23:53 furrywolf yep.
23:54 furrywolf grrr, my internet connection is degrading further.
23:54 katsmeow-afk what about moding a pump from a pressure washer? those are fixed swashplates
23:55 katsmeow-afk i've never opened on up tho
23:55 furrywolf all the ones I've seen use a crank with bearings on it.
23:55 furrywolf never seen a swashplate design in one.
23:55 katsmeow-afk i think the stroke is so short, they have no connecting rod, they run a ball bearing in the underside of the piston, against the swashplate
23:56 katsmeow-afk the piston, in effect, is the whole hiem joint
23:56 furrywolf no, it needs to be attached, so it doesn't have to rely on the input pressure or a spring to pull the piston back.
23:56 rue_house it would be nice to know someone who could understand what I'm doing
23:56 katsmeow-afk ok
23:56 furrywolf and the only one I've rebuilt had something like a 3/4" stroke.
23:56 katsmeow-afk hmm, ok
23:56 furrywolf ceramic pistons. were shiny.