#robotics Logs
Mar 18 2012
#robotics Calendar
00:02 ace4016 also, apparently we're weaker than our primate cousins due to the way we optimized for control over strength (mainly in the way our nerves fire off)
00:03 katsmeow oh, i drove a 1/4 dia hunk of wood thru a thumb, hit the bone and deflected, broke the splinter into 4 pieces
00:03 ace4016 ouch
00:03 e4016 will put gloves on the list of PPE to
00:03 zhanx ok i cropped a photo and it was bigger after i cropped it. weird
00:03 katsmeow fastest exit for the 2 pieces still wrapped around bone was to cut str8 down thru the thumb, so i did, essentially exposing the bone
00:04 katsmeow healed as fast as any minor cut tho
00:05 katsmeow "1366’s Direct Wafer process produces the world’s first compatible, low-cost “kerfless” wafer ", not true, other companies have done it before, and at least one other is doing it now
00:06 katsmeow <whew> got that in 4 minutes before my brain shuts off at midnite
00:06 ace4016 don't you love marketing :P
00:06 katsmeow btw, heys ace, ltns
00:06 ace4016 ltns?
00:06 katsmeow long time no see
00:06 ace4016 ah, yea
00:06 ace4016 was in the process of moving and such
00:07 ace4016 :)
00:07 katsmeow me too, sucks, and worthless, i am back where i started, and poorer
00:07 ace4016 :(
00:07 ace4016 moved out of the old house into something not so nice?
00:08 katsmeow tried to move out to a *much* less house, but better land,,, problems became the land owner there became nazi
00:08 katsmeow the land became untouchable, making it worthless to me
00:08 katsmeow so i left
00:08 ace4016 ah
00:09 ace4016 what did they do to make it worthless? and was it a rent or purchase?
00:09 katsmeow rent/lease to purchase, once this place sold, i would purchase that down place there
00:09 ace4016 ah
00:10 katsmeow he said i could not put lites in the carport or in any outbuilding, could not put concrete pad under the ac units or pour one for jacking up and working on car or truck
00:11 katsmeow no proper leveling of the trailer, because it was bolted to the porch roof in back and that wold need to be modified and required a permit and inspections and crap
00:11 ace4016 ah...that sucks :/
00:11 katsmeow no power to the gates for push-button opening
00:11 katsmeow i am disabled, getting ina dn out twice to open gates really can suck
00:12 ace4016 now a days, even owning a home has tons of restrictions; especially if you live in a neighborhood with a HOA
00:12 katsmeow no plantng other plants, no removing plants, no insulation and stucco over the trailer exterior
00:12 katsmeow there was no HOA, he *became* the HOA himself
00:13 katsmeow no replacing the trailer wndows with something more modern and energy efficicnet
00:13 katsmeow no putting solid flooring on the porches instead of the slats
00:14 zhanx https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jpT2N-nJ990/T2VsnmSxxFI/AAAAAAAADVM/SVoA5FHvwC0/w588-h441-k/john%2Band%2Bval.jpg
00:14 zhanx dinner tonight
00:14 katsmeow no leveling the dirt floor in the outbuilding and pouring a concrete floor
00:14 katsmeow no 120vas power or lights in any other building
00:14 katsmeow vac
00:15 katsmeow and he never got the required barn up with a concrete floor in it, even at my expence
00:15 ace4016 i'm guessing the big guy is zhanx :P
00:15 katsmeow zhanx, i see no dinner
00:15 ace4016 he ate it; including the plates and silverware
00:15 zhanx yep
00:16 katsmeow she's cute, zhanx
00:16 zhanx thanks
00:16 katsmeow just as well there's no food shown, it wold only make me hungry
00:17 katsmeow i sure hope you are not an Iran invasion force
00:17 zhanx nope, funny thing is the beer is hers and the water is mine
00:18 katsmeow i very seldom drink alchohol away from home anymore
00:18 zhanx same here
00:18 home i want power...
00:18 tsmeow hand rue a button
00:18 home got a virus on windows today
00:18 home ...
00:20 katsmeow so zhanx, how do you make anything you want be usb-able,, and how will my programs i write on winxp see it?
00:20 ace4016 home, stop going to the naughty websites
00:20 zhanx as a usb device
00:20 zhanx you chose thay
00:21 zhanx that
00:21 zhanx basically the usb descriptor does it
00:22 katsmeow but "usb device" can be a ssd, a modem, a etc,, how does windows see what it is,, how do you interpret a button pushed as something other than a file, etc,, what is it exactly?
00:22 zhanx its sending info mainly
00:22 katsmeow ifi want a mess of buttons, and amess of relays hanging off the usb cable, how is that represented in the OS?
00:22 zhanx the descriptor tells what it is and how info is sent
00:23 katsmeow winxp doesn't know descriptor "kat's stuff"
00:23 zhanx true
00:23 zhanx but usb has a standard
00:23 zhanx xp knows that
00:23 katsmeow yeas, is "button" or "relay" a standard?
00:23 delinquentme anyone have examples of really cheap ferromagnetic sheet metal?
00:23 zhanx yes
00:23 katsmeow delinquentme, anyting steel
00:24 delinquentme hmm
00:24 delinquentme aluminum wont work?
00:24 zhanx but usb is "different" you dont debounce it
00:24 katsmeow ferro = iron, aluminum != iron
00:24 delinquentme ahhh!
00:24 katsmeow ferro, ferric, the symbol for iron is Fe
00:24 delinquentme and if this is used in magnetic shielding it needs to be a continuous surface
00:24 delinquentme like it cant be a cage
00:25 delinquentme it needs to be a plant
00:25 delinquentme plane**
00:25 katsmeow it need to be smaller than 1/2 a wavelength, and for a steady magnet, that's essentially like dc, so a solid plane
00:26 delinquentme kk
00:26 delinquentme and I think I've got my first rue style hacking question
00:26 delinquentme http://store.makerbot.com/magnetic-linear-encoder-v1-2-kit.html
00:26 katsmeow all joints must be continuous bonded too
00:26 delinquentme the plastic 4 pin attachment
00:26 delinquentme that can be removed
00:27 delinquentme and those 4 wires hooked up to the back of the board right?
00:27 delinquentme basically that plastic thinger stops me from the clearance I want on the top of the sensor
00:27 delinquentme so I'd love to remove it
00:41 katsmeow .
00:43 delinquentme CTCP PONG?
00:43 zhanx ,
00:44 katsmeow-afk want a PING instead?
00:45 katsmeow-afk "Libya demands handover of Gaddafi spy chief Senussi" <<== i read as Sansui
00:56 zhanx_ laptop over heated
00:57 tsmeow-afk scratches using usb relays and switches from a wintel machine to operate real life things, buying them costs too
00:57 katsmeow-afk afk
00:58 zhanx_ npn
01:04 rue_house home, if you dont want viri, close the windows
01:04 e_house hands kat some ferrous ni
01:05 rue_house whats half a wavelength of 60hz?
01:05 zhanx 30
01:06 rue_house 30c/60?
01:06 zhanx well more like 32.873 but
01:07 delinquentme rue_house, http://i.imgur.com/GoWYK.jpg <<<
01:08 pigthepenguin ooooh pretty
01:08 rue_house 299792458 m/s
01:08 rue_house delinquentme, your builds are getting fancier
01:08 delinquentme MY GOD.
01:08 delinquentme http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/CMS_Silicon_Tracker_Arty_HiRes.jpg
01:08 delinquentme it gets bigger
01:08 delinquentme ;D
01:08 delinquentme lol
01:09 delinquentme im only a few dollars off that budget
01:09 rue_house ok what is it?
01:09 pigthepenguin what does that doe?
01:09 pigthepenguin do*
01:10 delinquentme its the heart of the LHC
01:10 delinquentme its the detector for the sub atomic collisions
01:10 delinquentme breathtaking isnt it?
01:10 rue_house I think I see a broken solder joint on module 1.1.1.1.1.1.4
01:11 delinquentme LOL i see a glue drop on 1.1.1.1.1.2.3
01:11 pigthepenguin hehe
01:12 rue_house modern **** does anyone put any quality into anything these days? :)
01:12 delinquentme rue_house, that doesnt look like quality to you?
01:12 delinquentme like that looks fucking stellar to me
01:12 delinquentme granted theres that glue drop
01:12 pigthepenguin i think hes joking based on the glue and the broken solder
01:12 rue_house its pretty cause of the gold finish
01:13 rue_house it looks like it cost 100M$
01:13 rue_house think the modules are i2c?
01:14 delinquentme rue_house, umm the whole thing costs 10 bil
01:14 delinquentme ah yeah thats prob gol
01:14 rue_house oh did I say million?
01:14 delinquentme gold
01:14 delinquentme thought copper @ first but it would oxidize
01:15 rue_house so they do accelerator sollisions in the middle?
01:15 rue_house the way their tiled I imagine its traveling, spinning projectiles
01:15 delinquentme yeah...
01:15 delinquentme rue you're fucking good
01:15 zhanx rue is better than god
01:15 delinquentme apparently the shit gets crazy at that level
01:16 rue_house mmm
01:16 zhanx shit gets crazy at rue's level
01:16 rue_house I was thinking about electrons yesterday
01:17 delinquentme http://www.3quarksdaily.com/.a/6a00d8341c562c53ef0147e3dfd18f970b-800wi
01:18 delinquentme paths in sub atomic particles are just crazy
01:22 rue_house what there is crazy?
01:23 rue_house its too bad its only a 1d image
01:23 rue_house er 2d
01:25 rue_house silly scientists accelerating particles to those speeds and then trying to work out where they went
01:27 rue_house too bad they dont do 1:1 collisions
01:29 rue_house I'm supposed to be thinking about someting meaningfull
01:29 rue_house like a mecha hand
01:29 rue_house right, I need to know about those joints
01:31 katsmeow-afk .
01:31 rue_house http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/category/manual-computing-devices/
01:38 katsmeow-afk Construction of the plant began in 1974 but was suspended in 1988 due to a fall in both demand and the price of electricity in the region. Around $6bn had already been invested in the construction of the two nuclear reactor units.
01:38 pigthepenguin ouch
01:41 rue_house http://blog.ewanscorner.com/images/ewans-broken-finger.JPG looks like losing the outter two fingers makes things a lot easier
01:43 rue_house http://mindtrans.narod.ru/hands/pictures/mechate_hand.jpg obvious flaws aside, hmmmm
01:44 rue_house nice way of doing the compliance
01:46 rue_house http://mindtrans.narod.ru/hands/hands.htm I need to make sure not to pass up the pages the images come from
01:46 katsmeow-afk springs?
01:47 rue_house well they are using servos
01:47 katsmeow-afk note there are no bearings, and movement under a load will be problematic
01:48 katsmeow-afk there's a *lot* of stuff there moving on simple bolts
01:48 katsmeow-afk there's *3* bolts per knuckle
01:48 rue_house http://mindtrans.narod.ru/hands/pictures/Sheffield_Hand.JPG getting the feeling having a 3d printer would be nice
01:49 katsmeow-afk and, you cannot move a knuckle separately from the rest
01:49 rue_house I said "obvious problems aside" geeeesh...
01:49 rue_house :0
01:49 rue_house :)
01:49 katsmeow-afk omg
01:49 rue_house http://mindtrans.narod.ru/hands/pictures/ZAR4.jpg
01:49 delinquentme rue_house, with all that machinery they're still hit or miss on most of the protons which get accelerated around there
01:50 rue_house hah I feel someones footsteps under me
01:50 katsmeow-afk got a bigger pic of http://mindtrans.narod.ru/hands/pictures/Sheffield_Hand.JPG ?
01:50 rue_house nope, google 'er
01:51 rue_house http://www.sensorprod.com/research-articles/white-papers/2008-03_sha/Anatomy-of-the-index-finger01.jpg
01:51 rue_house aha! multi-linked tendons! I didn't think of that!
01:51 katsmeow-afk http://www.elumotion.com/roboarm.html
01:52 katsmeow-afk multilink tendons? you mean more than one cable, right?
01:52 rue_house the tendon has multiple attachment points
01:52 katsmeow-afk yeas
01:52 katsmeow-afk if you mangle the system right, you can gave an increasing grasp curve
01:54 rue_house http://www.yorku.ca/mack/BarfieldF4.gif interesting
01:54 rue_house http://www.yorku.ca/mack/Barfield.html
01:54 katsmeow-afk http://www.elumotion.com/Pdfs/Elu2-Hand-Data-Sheet-24-2-10-a.pdf
01:57 rue_house http://jvcai.blogspot.ca/
01:59 rue_house http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Gray418.png
01:59 rue_house http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Flexor-digitorum-profundis.png
02:05 katsmeow-afk .
02:12 rue_house http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs40/f/2009/021/7/4/0054___Hand_anatomy___muscles_by_rainobscured.jpg
02:12 rue_house ah, geez
02:12 rue_house this explains some things
02:12 katsmeow-afk ?
02:12 rue_house the side to side actuator is shared between adjacent fingers
02:12 katsmeow-afk cannot be, i can wriggle all my fingerss side to side separately
02:13 rue_house I think your compensating with adjacent actuators tho
02:13 rue_house like a chain
02:13 katsmeow-afk i don't see that on that pic
02:13 rue_house look at how the tennons merge
02:14 katsmeow-afk the fat white ones are not the side-to-side actuators
02:14 e_house looks up more refere
02:15 rue_house http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/302449/530wm/P1160682-Hand_anatomy-SPL.jpg
02:15 rue_house ah, maybe the side to side is locally actuated
02:15 katsmeow-afk http://www.theodora.com/anatomy/the_muscles_and_fasciae_of_the_hand.html
02:15 lok codes frantically before the sun
02:15 katsmeow-afk the side to side is located on the hand, the extensors are in the forearm
02:16 rue_house grr I cant tell whats tennon and whats other
02:20 orlok I had a dud battery
02:20 orlok took me a long time to realise.
02:20 orlok Grrrr.
02:20 rue_house never prototype with batteries
02:20 orlok Though at least it seems my attacking the worm gear with rogue worked
02:21 orlok heh, not prototyping, it made me think something else was faulty
02:21 orlok but at least it forced me to get its replacement workable sorta
02:21 orlok and now i have much greater capability
02:21 orlok i also realised that the factory controller is a POS
02:22 orlok they got the timing "right" just by basically adding in a delay
02:22 orlok so theres a dozen steps, then a 50ms delay
02:22 rue_house the tendons split and wrap around the joint
02:22 orlok so counting the pulse length was pointless
02:22 rue_house I wonder if this gives them better leverage
02:23 orlok i ended up timing how long it took to make one revolution (200 seconds) and fuding something to give me tat
02:23 orlok anyway, now my tracking is damn near spot on
02:23 orlok i got 5 minutes looking better than i have ever seen!
02:23 rue_house katsmeow-afk,
02:24 orlok but i dont know if thats because i am using my controller, or because i attacked the worm gear and ring gear with polishing compound, and hooked an electric drill up to it for a while
02:24 rue_house it looks like the attachment point for both tennons come off the TOP of the digit...?
02:24 rue_house http://citysquarephysiotherapy.patientsites.com/Injuries-Conditions/Hand/Hand-Anatomy/a~280/article.html
02:25 katsmeow-afk no, at least for sure not ion thelast finger bone
02:26 orlok http://182.160.128.150/Astro/Arduino/2.html - 5 minute exposure!
02:26 katsmeow-afk the grasping tendon attaches to the bottom, the extensors attach to the top
02:26 e_house flips back a few p
02:27 rue_house ok , but there is some odd weaving going on there
02:27 orlok i always used to get nasty distorions after that period of time , yay!
02:27 orlok AND, i actually fouund somebody asking on a forum if what i have done exists
02:28 orlok somebody break a finger or something?
02:28 katsmeow-afk no, rue is making one
02:28 orlok zhanx done himself another injury?
02:29 katsmeow-afk rue, see http://citysquarephysiotherapy.patientsites.com/media/img/380/hand_anatomy_nerves02.jpg , the left pic, the red muscles under the white tendons on the back of the hand, are what pulls finger side to side
02:29 katsmeow-afk zhanx is fine
02:29 rue_house 9? tenons that actuate grip?
02:29 katsmeow-afk huh?
02:30 rue_house in that link, what are the tennons slipping around to the palm side then?
02:30 tsmeow-afk looks on the back of her mon
02:30 katsmeow-afk it's just good attaching area
02:31 katsmeow-afk i think they are confusing your interpretation because they are also showing all the tendons that don't move anything, but keep the joints together
02:33 rue_house http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dH3U9ulvWGM/SgLEx16cnZI/AAAAAAAAAeU/RxdE1eri2qw/s400/hand3.png
02:33 rue_house good side schematics are hard to find
02:36 katsmeow-afk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorsal_interossei_of_the_hand
02:37 rue_house http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/hand.htm
02:37 katsmeow-afk dorsal interosseous I adjacent sides of metacarpal bones lateral aspect of extensor expansion of ring finger ulnar abducts ring finger away from middle finger
02:37 katsmeow-afk dorsal interosseous II adjacent sides of metacarpal bones medial aspect of extensor expansion of middle finger ulnar abducts the middle finger away from its long axis
02:37 katsmeow-afk dorsal interosseous III adjacent sides of metacarpal bones lateral aspect of extensor expansion of middle finger ulnar abducts the middle finger away from its long axis
02:38 katsmeow-afk dorsal interosseous IV adjacent sides of metacarpal bones lateral aspect of extensor expansion of index finger ulnar abducts the index finger away from the middle finger
02:38 katsmeow-afk palmar interosseus I medial side of 2nd metacarpal medial base of index finger ulnar adducts index finger towards middle finger
02:38 katsmeow-afk interosseous II lateral side of 4th metacarpal lateral base of ring finger ulnar adducts ring finger towards middle finger
02:38 rue_house eeek
02:38 katsmeow-afk interosseous III lateral side of 5th metacarpal medial base of little finger ulnar adducts little finger towards middle finger
02:38 rue_house abduct is a stupid word to use for that
02:39 katsmeow-afk those are the side-to-side muscle names and which action they do
02:39 katsmeow-afk http://home.comcast.net/~wnor/lesson5tableofmuscles.htm
02:39 katsmeow-afk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray428.png <<== shows the dorsal interossi
02:40 katsmeow-afk note: the long bones at the top of that pic are not finger bones, those are bones in the palm of your hand
02:40 rue_house http://img.orthobullets.com/Hand/Tendon%20injuries/Sagital%20Band%20Rupture/Images/Sagital%20band%20anatomy.jpg
02:41 katsmeow-afk won't show me the page
02:41 rue_house :/
02:41 katsmeow-afk The website declined to show this webpage
02:41 katsmeow-afk HTTP 403
02:41 rue_house side schematic
02:41 rue_house is shows the tenons are not simple 1 point connections
02:42 katsmeow-afk This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.
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02:42 rue_house they weave and distribute
02:42 katsmeow-afk ok,, they need massive surface area to connect, they make amazing amout of force, i tell you this often
02:43 katsmeow-afk they also weave between other tendons
02:43 rue_house hmm
02:44 katsmeow-afk iirc, there's a band of tendon around some joints, the grasp tendon runs between that and the tendons holdng joint itself
02:44 rue_house http://www.radsource.us/_images/0606_5.jpg
02:45 katsmeow-afk you will hear of torn tendons more often that tendons ripped off the bone, but it does happen
02:46 katsmeow-afk tendons like the sagittal band keep the tendon centered over the bone
02:46 katsmeow-afk the interosseous mucles pull side to side
02:47 katsmeow-afk ditto lubrical muscles
02:47 katsmeow-afk lumbrical
02:49 katsmeow-afk Axial T1-weighted image obtained at the level of the ring finger MCP joint. The central extensor tendon (arrow) is centered by the restraining action of the thin sagittal bands (arrowheads).
02:49 katsmeow-afk like i said
02:50 rue_house I'm starting to understand
02:51 rue_house I think there are a few tricks I can take to the mecha, but I dont think that its logical to take the multiplexing thats going on here
02:51 katsmeow-afk oh, i certanly agree, direct copy of the human body is nuts for a robot
02:52 rue_house and this is a complete new set of terminology that I cant absorb right now
02:52 tsmeow-afk grew up in a medical household, and once worked in a hosp
02:52 katsmeow-afk and injured a lot of fingers
02:53 rue_house that explains some of it
02:53 katsmeow-afk and some other bones and stuff
02:53 rue_house I wonder how I keep the actuator cables from wearing badly
02:53 katsmeow-afk bearings, and really slick plastics
02:55 katsmeow-afk that's why i keep stressing how much pull a muscle provide,, tho i cannot find the table now, some guy named Frik or Frick or something determined some of the *finger* tendons pull over 500 lbs
02:55 rue_house "extensor hood" turned up a bunch of descent looking stuff
02:55 katsmeow-afk so correct routing the force to minimise wear really matters
02:56 rue_house http://radiology.rsna.org/content/222/2/437/F2.medium.gif
02:57 katsmeow-afk yeas, but the interosseous and lumbricals can attach anywhere convinient, they don't do much work, they are very small muscles
02:58 katsmeow-afk don't confuse the interosseous and lumbricals with the sagital band
02:58 rue_house error: " interosseous and lumbricals"
02:58 rue_house error "sagital"
02:58 katsmeow-afk those are two groups of muscles
02:58 katsmeow-afk sagittal
02:59 katsmeow-afk lumbrical is spelled correctly
02:59 rue_house http://i.quizlet.com/i/cLTtZ5zq8lgMtjuIxm8bbA_m.jpg
02:59 katsmeow-afk interosseous is spelled correctly
02:59 katsmeow-afk why did you <rue_house> error: " interosseous and lumbricals" ?
02:59 rue_house error: unknown term: "interosseous"
03:00 katsmeow-afk why?
03:01 rue_house unknown
03:02 rue_house http://ars.sciencedirect.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0021929001000616-gr1.jpg
03:06 katsmeow-afk dija note how the flexor didtitorum superficialis runs right thru the flexor digitoum profundis? [02:34] <katsmeow-afk> they also weave between other tendons
03:06 katsmeow-afk drated speeling
03:06 rue_house error: unknown term: flexor didtitorum superficialis
03:06 katsmeow-afk digitorum
03:06 rue_house error: unknown term: flexor digitoum profundis
03:06 katsmeow-afk ok, you try spelling it without looking it up at 3am
03:11 rue_house http://www.aafp.org/afp/2004/0415/afp20040415p1941-f3.gif
03:12 rue_house from that I dont understand why the final digit segment cant be individually controlled
03:12 katsmeow-afk it can, but not by everyone
03:12 rue_house THATS the other problem
03:12 katsmeow-afk why?
03:13 rue_house the genetic divertisy isn't giving me a static model to studdy
03:13 katsmeow-afk it i palm plant my hand down with the last bit of finger hanging off the table, i can bend it up and down by itself
03:13 katsmeow-afk it's not always genetic
03:13 rue_house the motion of the final segment does indicate crossover of a tenon
03:14 rue_house I meant without external force
03:14 katsmeow-afk damage, "use it or lose it" functionality, etc causes some variability
03:18 rue_house sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep
03:18 katsmeow-afk rue, i seen epople born with 3 fingers, short 2 vertibra, short a rib, etc etc
03:18 katsmeow-afk and it's all in the range of "normal"
03:19 katsmeow-afk the little finger is somewhat of an anomoly, tho most "handed" animals have one
11:23 rue_house Big-Al, using the resistor bend sensors too
11:24 rue_house I'm interested in designs with 2 to 3 servos per finger
11:24 rue_house fire int he boiler is still going
11:24 e_house throws in more wood and gets it going a
12:00 rue_house transverse is sideways
12:00 rue_house fiber means tennon
12:40 thylane http://cynthia-stcharles.blogspot.com/2009/08/beartooths-mountain-goat-at-jasper-lake.html
12:40 thylane our robots are still far behind nature
12:45 rue_house :)
12:46 thylane You can't do anything useful with a robot without thousands of dollars of funding from DARPA
12:46 rue_house ?
12:46 rue_house you havn't seen the stuff the oil companies send to the bottom of the sea?
12:47 thylane oil companies have even more money
12:47 rue_house even apple has mor money than the federal reserve
12:47 rue_house the usa is broke, just hasn't noticed yet
12:48 rue_house or its denial, I'm not sure
12:51 thylane We must obtain the skeleton of a mountain goat
12:51 thylane and then details of its muscle and tendon anatomy
12:52 thylane this stuff is ridiculous http://www-clmc.usc.edu/Research/LearningLocomotion
12:52 thylane pathetic
12:52 thylane What we must do is copy nature, wherever nature has defeated us.
13:58 katsmeow-afk so,, what humans need is hooves, and no vocal cords
13:59 ace4016 ?
14:00 katsmeow-afk [12:43] <thylane> What we must do is copy nature, wherever nature has defeated us.
14:00 katsmeow-afk [13:49] <katsmeow-afk> so,, what humans need is hooves, and no vocal cords
14:01 katsmeow-afk like a mountain goat, so we can spend weeks out in the mountains, where nature has defeated us
14:09 ace4016 lol
14:10 pigpenguin sounds like a plan
14:38 katsmeow-afk but no bones, like the squid and octopus, which live at the bottoms of the oceans, where nature has defeated us
14:39 katsmeow-afk except then there's no chance of flying thru the clouds, where nature has defeated us
14:55 katsmeow-afk cats cannot naturally fly, but they still defeat nature : http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxfxudzFd91qcxyrro1_500.jpg
14:57 Tom_itx they were graciously given 9 lives though
15:03 Steffanx lol that reminds me of another copter i've seen on the web katsmeow-afk ..
15:04 Steffanx Quadrocopter cat
15:08 katsmeow-afk http://www.ubergizmo.com/2012/03/the-orvillecopter-is-a-flying-dead-cat/
15:09 katsmeow-afk i can just imagine the 911 calls if you flew this around the top windows of a skyscraper
15:10 katsmeow-afk after making the props less pink, and mabe a couple servoes to make like meowing
15:10 Steffanx I can't even see the reason WHY one would do that with a dead cat
15:10 Steffanx It's quite silly imho
15:10 katsmeow-afk humans tan hides of all ohter animals, including other humans <shrug>
15:27 thylane Our main problem is that the military has a monopoly on all technology now
15:31 katsmeow-afk washing off the side of the nuclear powered USS Ronald Reagan : http://www.vfp62.com/IMAGES_10/CV_76.jpg
15:32 katsmeow-afk washing off the side of the nuclear powered USS Nimitz : http://www.vfp62.com/IMAGES_10/CV_68.jpg
15:48 rue_house I understand that if the military has a technology, its open for anyone private is open to it
15:48 katsmeow-afk unless it's classified otherwise
16:16 thylane We need to obtain a detailed anatomy of the mountain goat.
16:16 thylane With the intention of building a robot to spec
16:19 thylane Examples of good climbers are big-horn sheep and mountain goats, and the latter seem to be especially nimble at scaling almost vertical cliffs in a manner that almost defies description, not to mention gravity [plus, of course, they always seem to be grinning].
16:19 thylane Forgetting momentarily about quadrupeds that can climb trees, etc, the best 4-legged climbers tend to be members of the goat and sheep families. These animals have relatively-lengthened "feet", as compared to other quadrupeds, and also possess hooves. They are members of a wider family called ungulates, and their foot design is termed unguligrade ["hoof-walking"] or digitigrade ["toe-walking"].
16:26 thylane http://www.oricomtech.com/misc/gallery2.htm
16:29 thylane http://www.iguana-robotics.com/researchtc.htm
16:33 katsmeow-afk it's not uncommon to come home and find your goats up in trees, on the roof, or all packed onto the tallest truck in the area
16:34 thylane http://www-robot.mes.titech.ac.jp/robot/walking_e.html
16:35 katsmeow-afk however, what is the point to climbing the cliff? if it's to get t the top there are faster, quieter, and safer ways to lift more weight and bigger objects to the top
16:35 katsmeow-afk if the object is to sit on the cliff, there's much faster ways to get a camera there
16:36 katsmeow-afk heh, you obviously have not seen zhanx's robot
16:47 ace4016 faster isn't always energy efficient :P
16:48 ace4016 i mean, i can lift a cake to the roof, but using a military helicopter to do such is a bit pricey, though fast :P
16:49 zhanx ?
16:52 ace4016 we need a pic of your robot zhanx >_>
16:52 ace4016 for research on mountain climbing goat robots
16:52 zhanx which one?
16:54 ace4016 i'm guessing a walker of some sort
16:59 zhanx https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wwpeQQcCSbk/S-uslLyaqfI/AAAAAAAAAdk/bJxUxxlrU4U/s686/DSC_3617.JPG
17:00 ace4016 i think the problem with a lot of walkers is both their joints and they ignore that the strucure affects the dynamics of the gait
17:02 ace4016 nice spider
17:24 thylane google is utterly useless for finding skeletal anatomy of mountian goats
17:26 zhanx http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_K20W_icGwtU/SX2em7tR_AI/AAAAAAAAAA4/SFMS0C8bR0w/s320/Fig+1.6.png
17:27 thylane what the ...?
17:27 thylane zhanx can you get me a front shot also?
17:28 ace4016 he got that from image searching mountin goat anaotomy...or at least i did
17:32 ace4016 http://www.oricomtech.com/projects/leg-clmb.htm
17:34 ace4016 heh, so they ran into the same issues creating robots that i mentioned a few lines up :P
17:34 ace4016 joints and structure!
17:38 zhanx that is always the issue
17:39 ace4016 a lot of robot joints are too rigid, and the structures and use of said structures don't try to take advantage f the dynamics
17:39 thylane yeah so
17:39 ace4016 like how people can walk downhill using almost 0 energy :P
17:40 thylane anyone heard of the idea of the servo running an output based on YANK instead of FORCE
17:41 thylane like the force is a "bucket" that is filled over several cycles
17:46 thylane ..
17:46 ylane stews in the sil
18:16 thylane http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerk_%28physics%29
18:23 katsmeow-afk ace, throw the cake onto the roof
18:25 katsmeow-afk there's been zero energy robotic downhill walkers
18:26 katsmeow-afk there was a robotic dog in the 60's that could go from a standstill to over 10mph in 20ft, with surprisingly little electrical power
18:27 katsmeow-afk it was smaller than the BIG DOG project, and there wasn't much in the way of advanced electronics for it to use back then
18:27 katsmeow-afk still, it could jump summersaults
18:27 katsmeow-afk frontwards or backwards
18:37 katsmeow-afk spring and motor operated fully adaptable hopping leg : http://rodel.snu.ac.kr/attach/pdf/Hopping%20Leg%20Design%20Using%20Crank-Slider%20Mechanism.pdf
18:40 katsmeow-afk here's the original hopping quadrupedial dog trotting down a hallway : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX79V9snFSw
18:40 katsmeow-afk the same lab made an amazing one legged hopper
18:42 katsmeow-afk walking the dog : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZgkTG-ZquM&feature=related
18:45 katsmeow-afk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9DQde7pKjE&feature=related <<== that robot could jump from a standing stop to a run, and stop from a run in two body lengths, i saw the videos decades ago
18:46 katsmeow-afk and how is this for fast? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLHhMyIUEWE&feature=endscreen&NR=1
18:48 katsmeow-afk bipedal robot base doing a summersault 30 years ago : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=n3WhwQ0S-vM
18:53 katsmeow-afk here's a robot that "all that" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMuWbDnIzlA&feature=related
18:58 katsmeow-afk BigDog has onboard systems that provide power, actuation, sensing, controls and communications. The power supply is a water-cooled two-stroke internal combustion engine that delivers about 15 hp.
19:05 ace4016 kats, the japanese make cute little robots
19:09 thylane We need something that transcends the capacity of wheels to navigate near impossible rough terrain
19:13 ace4016 we have legs and fliers
19:16 thylane there's not much of a {POINT} to quadruped vides on youtube where they are walking on flat office floots.
19:16 thylane floors
19:17 thylane Think about it
19:18 ace4016 designing legs is difficult
19:21 ace4016 although just about everything we've designed apart from some aquatic robots suck in terms of locomotion
19:21 ace4016 they're fairly clunky and highly energy inefficient
19:22 thylane We should copy nature's solutions
19:22 thylane starting with
19:22 thylane the mountain goat
19:22 thylane (which is technically a gazelle of some kind)
19:25 ace4016 heh
19:38 zhanx there are videos of bigdog and littledog walking in different terrains also fyi
19:39 katsmeow-afk while carrying 350lbs, too
19:39 zhanx on of the guys in #leafblowers (maple leaf labs) worked an intern for them over a summer two years ago
19:39 zhanx worked on the kick the dog and it not fall over
19:40 katsmeow-afk accelerometers and gyros?
19:42 thylane other than the $120,000 bigdog
19:43 thylane Everyone knows bigdog
19:43 katsmeow-afk well then thylane, why aren't you working on the new and improved BigDog, and call it MtnGoat ?
19:47 thylane katsmeow-afk Because youre "not allowed" to work on useful robots unless the government rubber stamps
19:47 katsmeow-afk false
19:51 ace4016 completely false
19:51 ace4016 it's just usually pricey; that's all
19:52 katsmeow-afk unless you can do it at scrap, Chinese, or Ebay prices
19:52 katsmeow-afk there's lotta scrap, lotta Chinese stuff, and lotta Ebay
19:53 katsmeow-afk 13,442 results found for air cylinder
19:53 ace4016 of course you can; but if you're a company that is trying to sell quality stuff, you'll have to be cautious of your sources
19:54 katsmeow-afk yeas, but proof of concept for VC groups comes first, then you get a manufacturing site and selling stuff
19:54 ace4016 there's not a lot of people with the knowledge, desire, *and* resources doing these things
19:54 katsmeow-afk you won't be selling robot goats on ebay anyhow
19:54 ace4016 (all three of those; and probably takes more than just that too)
19:55 katsmeow-afk i want to, and i have parts on hand, i been shut down by dogs for 10+ years, and now a HUGE financial hit trying to move to Fla
19:55 Tom_itx i haven't even seen real goats on ebay lately
19:55 katsmeow-afk 145 PSI 5 HP TWIN CYLINDER AIR COMPRESSOR PUMP
19:55 katsmeow-afk 1 Bid $0.99
19:55 katsmeow-afk Pickup only
19:56 Tom_itx close to you?
19:56 katsmeow-afk dunno, didn't look, i have compressors
19:56 tsmeow-afk goes back to
19:57 katsmeow-afk Lebanon, TN
19:57 ace4016 kats, the dogs bothering you for 10+ years means they've taken the necessary resources from you :/
19:57 ace4016 we know you have the knowledge and desire though
19:58 katsmeow-afk Lebanon, TN is outside Nashville on I-40
20:02 Tom_itx probably drove by it at least once
20:06 katsmeow-afk i have a box of Bimba air cylinders, got almost free as someone was throwing it out, but if i was on a shoestring, i'd use pvc pipe as cheap air cylinders
20:08 katsmeow-afk UPS shipping : http://taddtools.com/shipping.gif
20:25 katsmeow-afk .
21:32 rue_shop kat kat kat ,I made U channel with 2 peices of angle iron!
21:33 orlok nurgh
21:33 orlok grr
21:34 orlok too many changes at once
21:34 orlok i dont know which fixed the problem
21:34 orlok new battery, new controller, or polishing the gears
22:14 tsmeow-afk wonders what everyone is d
22:27 katsmeow-afk http://i.imgur.com/Ll4B2.jpg
22:34 katsmeow-afk The weight of the massive Greenland ice sheet has depressed the central land area to form a basin lying more than 300 m (984 ft) below sea level.[42][43] The ice flows generally to the coast from the centre of the island.
22:35 katsmeow-afk If the Greenland ice sheet were to melt away completely, the world's sea level would rise by more than 7 m (23 ft).
22:54 zhanx hours later
22:54 zhanx and i think the math is *goodish*
22:54 tsmeow-afk is looking at J58's in test jigs in afterbu
22:54 zhanx my delta bot might work
23:04 rue_house can I see a drawing
23:04 rue_house I'm wondering if I'm inclined enough to large mechanics to get this mecha built
23:04 zhanx no not yet, i might patent it
23:04 zhanx :P
23:21 rue_house I need to make a finger
23:21 rue_house oh I forgot to take pics today
23:21 zhanx yes you did
23:21 rue_house of the greenhouse path, the mecha hand outline, and the wheeled dollies for moving it
23:21 rue_house the mecha hand is pretty big
23:22 zhanx my green house is doing good
23:22 zhanx tomato's are growing good
23:40 katsmeow-afk i have not done anything towards gardening yet, i am still dealing with unloading the truck and trailer