#robotics Logs

Dec 22 2011

09:29 Steffanx You don't know that yet rue_house ?
09:29 rue_house no
09:31 Steffanx Pretty scary actually. Just read an article about buggy Siemens web interfaces. So I thought.. lets try to find the modbus/tcp module with web interface one the web
09:31 Steffanx I found some ACTIVE modules :S
09:31 Steffanx Without passwords
09:31 Steffanx That's scary
09:31 rue_house oo
09:32 rue_house could you tell what they controlled?
09:32 Steffanx on
09:32 Steffanx No, not really
09:32 rue_house so it could be a nuclear reactor and you wouldn't know the difference...
09:32 Steffanx The module I looked for isn't from siemens, it's on we use on my work
09:32 Steffanx Yes, it could be
09:32 rue_house what do you use it for at work?
09:33 Steffanx Non serious business
09:33 rue_house mmm lighting?
09:33 Steffanx barrier control, inductive loop detector etc.
09:34 Steffanx At least I enabled the password protection :)
09:34 rue_house mmm
09:34 Steffanx The password protection of the siemens devices seems to be bugged. After a few wrong password it resets to the default password :S
09:35 rue_house hahaha
09:35 rue_house oops
09:35 Steffanx At least, that's what the article tells me
09:35 rue_house did you try hammering yours?
09:35 Steffanx No, not yet
09:36 Steffanx I know it's eCos 2.0 based
09:36 rue_house what kinda outputs does it have? how many channels?
09:36 Steffanx http://ecos.sourceware.org/
09:36 Steffanx 8 inputs, 8 outputs :)
09:36 rue_house oh is it just firmware?
09:36 rue_house made your own hardware?
09:36 Steffanx No i didn't
09:37 Steffanx It was cheaper to buy one
09:37 rue_house I was looking at some
09:37 Steffanx Moxa?
09:37 rue_house I thought it might be easier to make them the io for the plc software I'm making
09:38 rue_house I didn't catch brands, I didn't find any outlets to get anything from
09:38 rue_house min quant 5000
09:38 Steffanx The one we use is ~150$
09:38 Steffanx or maytbe it was even more
09:39 rue_house hmm
09:39 rue_house I was looking on ebay, dont know if I was searing wrong, didn't find anything promising
09:39 rue_house aka correct device
09:41 Steffanx Oh, they are more like > 200$ :(
09:41 Steffanx http://www.moxa.com/product/ioLogik_E1212.htm
09:42 Steffanx I wouldn't be surprised if that device is actually pretty simple
09:42 Steffanx ARM + eCos (OS) and some protection
10:42 KongfuPanda I'm sooo lazy...
10:42 KongfuPanda could anyone build a robot to do my homework for me?
10:42 KongfuPanda :D
11:00 KayAteChef Yes. For $1,000,000.
11:00 KayAteChef plus $1000/month
11:41 Steffann zlog delete all where nick = steffanx
11:41 Steffann No :)
19:42 rue_house KongfuPanda, $999,999
19:43 KongfuPanda que ??? senior
19:43 Steffann 999,998
19:43 rue_house $999,997
19:43 Steffann For doing your homework KongfuPanda
19:43 KongfuPanda are you fighting for the job?
19:44 rue_house no I'm just underbidding Steffann
19:44 KongfuPanda I already hired a robot to build a robot for me for oil
19:44 Steffann Ok, it's time to sleep now KongfuPanda
19:44 rue_house haha, he's not willing to beat my bid!
19:45 Steffann No, => sleepy
19:45 rue_house I can make up the $3 with all the pop bottles on the deck!
19:45 Steffann And i'm looking at the new pictures of the populated raspberrypi's
19:48 rue_house did I win the bid? when do I get my $999,997?
19:48 rue_house its ok if the robots consists of a box with tinfoil with my roommate in it right?
19:49 Steffann When KongfuPanda gets his diploma and a good job
19:49 rue_house :(
19:49 KongfuPanda :D
19:49 OmegaLimit I am curious: is this also a good place to discuss programming IRC bots?
19:49 KongfuPanda I have no money
19:49 Steffann OmegaLimit, maybe
19:50 OmegaLimit Not to spam or anything; I'm trying to write one for transitioning some tabletop gaming to chat
19:50 OmegaLimit more easily
19:50 KongfuPanda http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DophgmxXnsM
19:51 rue_house KongfuPanda, ok, no money, $9999 and I use thin cardboard?
19:52 Steffann gn
20:02 rue_house :/
20:02 rue_house how about if I skip the tinfoil too
21:34 jadew hey rue_house
21:35 rue_house hey
21:35 jadew you said they're used to switch the bias in an ac singal, would one of those 4 diodes formation do the same thing (sorry, don't know the english word for that formation)
21:36 jadew we call it a bridge
21:36 jadew *wouldn't
21:36 rue_house sorry, I was a member of #electronics till the management of the channel proved to be making some really stupid descisions
21:37 rue_house no, a capacitor can remove all the dc level of a signal
21:37 jadew no worries
21:37 jadew you mean the gap between the sinusoidal signal?
21:37 jadew (don't know what the dc level means)
21:38 rue_house the distance between 0 volts and the middle of the sin wave
21:38 jadew I think there might be a language barrier here
21:38 jadew ah ha
21:38 rue_house with a capacitor you can move the middle the the sinewave anywhere you want
21:39 rue_house its something you need to do when amplifying a signal
21:40 jadew I might say something stupid, but is it because you need positive values to go trough a transistor
21:40 jadew so you can amplify the entire signal
21:40 jadew and not just half of it
21:40 rue_house correct
21:41 jadew this is great info
21:41 jadew thank you
21:42 rue_house so english isn't your main language, your really good at it
21:42 rue_house so english isn't your main language?, your really good at it
21:42 jadew thank you, it's probably because most of my friends are online and none speaks my native language
21:42 rue_house heh
21:44 rue_house Tom_itx, why IS chanserv opped here?
21:44 jadew can you please explain the part where you said in the past chained amps used to use transformers?
21:44 LoRez you can't deop it
21:45 rue_house but why is it even here?
21:46 rue_house jadew, old glass radio tube amplifiers changed zero levels of the signal by using a transformer
21:46 rue_house they did it with transistors too...
21:47 jadew trying to figure out how that would work
21:47 rue_house http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03143.png
21:47 rue_house found one!
21:48 rue_house http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03142.png <-- capacitor coupling
21:50 jadew I can't grasp it right now, because I fail to understand the flow of the current in there, but that website seems like it might hold all the info I'm missing
21:50 rue_house http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_4/12.html
21:50 rue_house its a good website. I'm just looking at it now
21:51 jadew all the books I've read on electronics (when I was a kid we didn't have internet) failed to explain this stuff
21:52 rue_house I wrote a page on transistors cause the books did not expalin them to me in a way I understood
21:52 jadew I searched for a few days on the internet for material on the same topic
21:52 jadew I wanted to know exactly how they work
21:52 jadew and why
21:52 rue_house http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/tutorials/elex/qwhathow.html <-- there is my transsitor page if you like
21:53 rue_house I suggest you read my page on transistors first
21:53 jadew I will, thank you
21:53 jadew btw, I knew what they do since I was a kid
21:54 jadew I just didn't know how they do it on an atomic level
21:54 rue_house aaah
21:54 jadew now I know
21:54 jadew :P
21:55 jadew actually... I don't remember anymore damn it
21:56 jadew it's that little detail, we all know about the electron gaps at the edge of the semiconductors
21:57 rue_house I never cared how they work internally, I just wnated to use them
21:57 jadew it was more of a curiosity
21:58 jadew cuz it's pretty strange if you think about it
21:58 rue_house na, the same things exist in magnetics, but nobodys into making magnetric circuits
21:58 jadew all the other components are easy to understand, but transistors are turlly amazing
21:59 jadew true, nobody knows how magnets work
21:59 rue_house hehe
22:00 rue_house wonder if I would get in trouble for creating a non-electric magnetic oscillator
22:00 rue_house oh I would
22:00 jadew what do you mean by non-electric?
22:01 jadew how would you get the oscilation going?
22:01 rue_house with a magnetic semiconductor
22:01 rue_house and a feedback loop
22:02 rue_house so I forgot what your making
22:02 jadew heh
22:02 jadew usb avr burner => usb measuring device => attach different tools to it, first one, thermoresistor
22:02 rue_house ah right
22:03 rue_house hmm
22:03 rue_house you might want ot buy a programmer from Tom_itx
22:03 jadew I enjoy building it
22:03 rue_house otherwise you need to program an avr to be abel to program an avr
22:03 jadew yeah, I know
22:03 jadew I already have a serial programmer
22:03 jadew and I'll probably use my old laptop for that
22:04 jadew but I can't do that on a regular basis
22:04 jadew that's why I want the USB one
22:04 jadew well, paralel, not serial
22:06 rue_house ah, ok
22:06 rue_house so you do have a computer you can use to program avrs right now
22:06 jadew yeah
22:06 rue_house cool
22:07 jadew but I chose not to, so I get myself to build the usb burner :D
22:07 rue_house do you have a programmer plan that your looking to make?
22:07 jadew http://www.ladyada.net/make/usbtinyisp/make.html
22:07 rue_house mmmm
22:07 jadew not good enough?
22:08 rue_house timy2313! cool
22:08 rue_house I'll make one too
22:08 rue_house do you have the parts?
22:08 jadew I'm missing the buffer and the crystal
22:09 rue_house buffer?
22:09 rue_house http://www.ladyada.net/make/usbtinyisp/parts-v10.html <--?
22:09 jadew the buffer chip
22:09 jadew ah, didn't know if v1 is still compatible with the driver
22:09 jadew and I'd still missing the buffer heh
22:09 rue_house hmm actaully, iirc, they had to add a buffer
22:09 jadew sorry
22:09 jadew the crystal
22:10 jadew if with out a buffer I'd get an error once out of 10 writes, I wouldn't mind it
22:10 rue_house 74125 eh?
22:10 rue_house hmm
22:11 rue_house I can send you both, but it would take about 5 months to get to you
22:11 rue_house the 12Mhz crystal can be found in an old printer
22:11 jadew yeah, don't worry about it
22:11 rue_house the buffer....
22:12 rue_house old old computer may have a 125, apple II or commodore
22:12 jadew the thing is, I already need to place an order to the electronics part store, cuz I need an attiny45 and I only have attiny13
22:12 jadew so I don't mind it that much
22:13 jadew (the usb driver doesn't fit in the attiny13)
22:13 jadew however, it would help a lot of if you had a few suggestions on what other parts are common when building stuff around microcontrollers
22:14 jadew so I could buy them in bunches
22:14 jadew cuz I'm sure I'll find myself in the same situation when I'm looking for a 0.1uF and can't find one
22:16 jadew btw, you should deffinitely put a page together on this stuff, which apparently comes naturally to you: where to find specific components
22:16 jadew where to look for them
22:17 jadew I'm sure it would be very popular
22:24 jadew when noobs like me need something, we go trough everything we put our hands on and recheck all the parts we haven't taken out of those pcbs
22:26 rue_house I do
22:26 rue_house thats what eds.dyndns.org is
22:26 rue_house but
22:26 rue_house I only put pages togethor when people need help
22:27 rue_house jadew, I need to go to bed, I'll wake up in 10 hours and to go work for 9 hours, then I'll be back
22:27 jadew ok, talk to you then
22:27 Tom_itx good plan
22:27 jadew thanks for all the info
22:28 rue_house I have to work out how to be in two places at the same time that are 20km apart tommorow morning
22:28 Tom_itx you figure that out you let me know too
22:28 rue_house I think I can do it by changing the way time works
22:28 rue_house maybe If I create a 1 hr time zone between the two towns
22:29 Tom_itx or shorten the distance
22:29 rue_house I live int eh area in the middle, so I'd like to leave it alone
22:30 rue_house maybe if I hack an atomic clock somewhere by 1 hr I can pull it off
22:30 Tom_itx i just woke from a nap so i can go back to sleep
22:30 jadew override the gps time radio signals
22:30 jadew that come from those time keeping satellites
22:30 jadew scratch *gps
22:31 Tom_itx jadew what are you building?
22:31 jadew altho, they might be the same satellites
22:31 jadew heh
22:31 rue_house I'll work on it during breakfast
22:31 Tom_itx so i don't have to re read all the scrollback
22:31 rue_house gnight!
22:31 jadew night
22:31 rue_house Tom_itx, tinyusb programmer
22:31 Tom_itx gnite
22:32 rue_house 2313
22:32 jadew usb burner => usb measuring device => different measuring tools for the measuring device
22:32 Tom_itx is this the standard 2313 programmer?
22:33 jadew http://www.ladyada.net/make/usbtinyisp/make.html
22:33 Tom_itx yeah it is
22:33 jadew it looks simple, I'm sure there are better alternatives
22:34 Tom_itx if all you want is ISP it's fine
22:34 jadew I'm not sure I fully understand what ISP is, isn't it the same with a paralel burner?
22:35 jadew they don't mention what ISP stands for in that FAQ
22:35 Tom_itx probably
22:35 jadew and what is more?
22:35 jadew what else could I get from a burner?
22:36 Tom_itx i have one that does ISP, PDI and TPI
22:36 Tom_itx which covers most of the 8bit avrs
22:36 jadew you basically lost me at ISP
22:36 jadew ah ha, so it's the protocol
22:36 Tom_itx yes
22:36 jadew yeah, I think ISP is all I need so far
22:37 jadew the paralel one worked with 2313 and 13, I suspect this one will work with them as well
22:37 Tom_itx if my server ever gets back online i'll show you a couple
22:37 Tom_itx yes it will
22:37 jadew and probably with the 45 too, which is what I'm going to need to program
22:38 jadew I hate building the PCB's so if you have a better suggestion, I'd be glad to hear it before I start working on it
22:38 jadew s/building/making/
22:39 Tom_itx i have a bunch of those little ones
22:39 Tom_itx like the ladyada one
22:40 jadew oh btw, I'm currently making pcb's by printing on photo paper, ironing it the pcb and then etch it the regular way, or by using a sponge to get it done faster
22:41 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/usbtiny_programmer/testing_index.php
22:41 Tom_itx that's about the one you're building
22:41 jadew are there better ways of doing it? the ironing part is the worst
22:41 jadew looks nice
22:41 Tom_itx yeah you gotta find the right paper and iron time to get it right
22:41 Tom_itx i've tried quite a few different ones
22:42 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/etch_index.php
22:42 Tom_itx there's my tank setup
22:42 jadew I found the right paper, but it's hard to iron it properly
22:42 Tom_itx i get alot of them done commercially now
22:42 jadew I see
22:42 Tom_itx the board needs to be really clean
22:42 Tom_itx clean with acetone etc
22:42 Tom_itx after scrubbing it
22:43 jadew yeah, I do that as well
22:43 Tom_itx mine come out ok for the most part
22:43 jadew my last PCBs came out really nice, but it's so much work, I'd avoid it at all costs
22:43 Tom_itx most of what i do is smt nowdays
22:44 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
22:44 Tom_itx that's my other programmer
22:44 Tom_itx does quite a bit more than the first one
22:44 jadew looks really nice
22:45 Tom_itx i need to order more boards for it
22:45 jadew damn, you're making nice PCBs
22:45 Tom_itx i had those done in china
22:45 jadew ah
22:45 jadew hehe
22:45 jadew I thought you found the ultimate secret
22:45 jadew and got a pcb printer as well
22:46 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/toaster_oven/ser_lcd_board2.jpg
22:46 jadew nice drills
22:46 Tom_itx that's for a 2313
22:46 jadew drill bits
22:47 Tom_itx serial lcd
22:47 jadew nice
22:47 Tom_itx those are obviously done by hand
22:48 jadew they look nice
22:48 Tom_itx that was for my toaster oven
22:48 Tom_itx i reflow solder those boards
22:48 Tom_itx i got tired of hand soldering all of em
22:49 jadew you solder all the boards?
22:49 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/batch1.jpg
22:50 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/boards1.JPG
22:50 Tom_itx straight from china
22:50 jadew neat
22:51 jadew wonder how they do it
22:51 Tom_itx same basic process
22:51 jadew do you have huge enough orders so they would build a blueprint just for you?
22:52 jadew or they have a cnc or some kind of machine that gets your design from the pc and just takes care of it all
22:52 Tom_itx i send them a set of gerber files and they send me the boards
22:52 Tom_itx they use photo transfer
22:53 jadew that's not cheap
22:54 jadew this is one of my best boards: http://imagebin.org/189976
22:54 jadew I screwed it up tho
22:54 jadew when I made the holes
22:54 Tom_itx the etching looks ok though
22:54 Tom_itx double sided?
22:54 jadew nope, single
22:55 Tom_itx trick is to center punch before drilling
22:55 jadew I know
22:55 Tom_itx i have a small punch i use
22:55 jadew I noticed it
22:55 Tom_itx you did?
22:55 Tom_itx where?
22:55 jadew yeah, looked trough your photos
22:55 Tom_itx i didn't know i had a pic of that
22:55 jadew http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/mills.jpg
22:55 jadew it's the one on the left, isn't it?
22:56 Tom_itx no that's a sewing pin
22:56 jadew oh
22:56 Tom_itx to show the size of the endmills
22:56 Tom_itx those aren't drills
22:56 jadew what are they then?
22:56 Tom_itx endmills
22:57 jadew don't know what they're used for
22:57 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Boxes/milling1.jpg
22:57 Tom_itx stuff like that
22:57 jadew ah for a cnc
22:57 jadew got it
22:58 jadew you guys got a lot of toys hehe
22:58 Tom_itx some guys like to mill their pcboards, i didn't like it
22:58 Tom_itx i gotta get some sleep now
22:58 Tom_itx brouse around my pages
22:58 jadew ok, have a good night
22:58 Tom_itx bb tomorrow
22:58 jadew see ya
22:59 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Stencils/stencil_form4.jpg
22:59 Tom_itx stuff you won't see from the menu
23:00 jadew is that for the UV method?
23:00 Tom_itx no that's a solder stencil
23:00 Tom_itx for reflow
23:00 jadew ah
23:00 jadew neat
23:01 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/reflow/cooling.jpg
23:01 Tom_itx coming out of the oven
23:01 jadew heh
23:02 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/new_batch/USB_chips.jpg
23:02 Tom_itx i try to stock up
23:03 jadew must cost a little fortune
23:03 Tom_itx well they *are* cheaper in bulk
23:03 Tom_itx but still quite a bit
23:04 Tom_itx anyway.. gnite
23:04 jadew night