#robotics Logs
Dec 08 2011
#robotics Calendar
03:13 thylln anyone have opinions on these?
03:13 thylln how much does a bear controller cost?
03:39 theBear depends how big the bear is
03:40 theBear a lot of us feel that arduino is an unnecesarry level of abstraction to make your first day of programming easier, and then add a lot of unnecesarry struggle to get from there to be able to talk to 'normal' people about programming, who haven't used the mess that is arduino-libs
03:41 theBear at the same time some feel that coming pre-programmed with a bootloader etc to allow easy programming makes the HARDWARE side of it kinda cool... as i recall, last i checked you could get or make equivalents much cheaper
03:51 parag0n arduino is a good jumping off point, and very handy for fast prototypes
03:56 thylln could arduinos be "chained" together?
03:56 parag0n to what end?
04:00 thylln the results of two arduinos could be the input into a third arduino
04:01 parag0n thats an... expensive way of doing it
04:15 thylln ATmega168 requre an AVR ISP programmer. What the heck is that?
04:22 thylln http://www.robotshop.com/pololu-orangutan-robot-controller.html
04:22 thylln ?
04:25 thylln http://www.amazon.com/Pololu-Co-USB-AVR-Programmer/dp/B003XOHVUW
04:30 parag0n that pololu model will work perfectly
04:38 Kingsy anyone kickin around?
04:39 parag0n Kingsy, sup
04:41 Kingsy parag0n: yo, I am interested in getting into robotics as a hobby, I did some programming in uni (mostly robot arm stuff) in C, and was hoping to get some advice on what to by as a starter kit? I don't know if this is the right place to ask?
04:43 parag0n i'd go for something like http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/130602974681 , add an arduino starter kit and a breadboard
04:46 Kingsy parag0n: ok, and as an absolute beginner with electronics (I do want to learn) what is a breadboard? you mean a blank circuit board?
04:46 parag0n a breadboard is a board you can use to make rewireable prototypes
04:47 parag0n http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/breadb.htm
04:47 Kingsy if I buy those things does that as a base allow me to build (eventually) a robot that would move around etc? and give scope to add more features as I become more advanced?
04:47 parag0n that page should explain better than i can :)
04:47 parag0n yep
04:48 Kingsy wow cool, I honestly am really interested in the subject, is there a book I can also get that will explain the basics of robotics programming setup to me? basically I need a "getting started" guide or something
04:48 Kingsy see in uni I programmed the arm but the platform was already set, i.e I had a programming interface when I started
04:49 Kingsy parag0n: see as it stands if I bought those items I wouldnt know how to get started so some kinda guide or starting information would be a must
04:49 Kingsy don't know if something like that is availebl
04:49 Kingsy available**
04:49 parag0n http://www.amazon.co.uk/123-Robotics-Experiments-Evil-Genius/dp/0071413588 might be a good start
04:50 parag0n ok, for example. first thing you'll want to do is drive your two motors. you can do this in a number of different way, but i'd suggest using an L293D chip. this can drive two motors
04:51 parag0n http://oomlout.com/L293/L293-Guide.pdf here is a handy guide on how to hook one up
04:52 Kingsy parag0n: I think what I want is a starter kit that would include everything I need in order to get a robot to say "move" with an LED or something, so very very basic robot control
04:52 Kingsy so.. once the parts arrive I don't need to buy anything else to make that happen..
04:53 Kingsy all I need to do is learn :P
04:53 parag0n the other option is to buy something like a pololu 3pi. its a prebuilt robot that you can program
04:53 Kingsy I would like to build it myself tbh
04:53 parag0n http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/975
04:53 parag0n :)
04:53 Kingsy it would require alot more learning as a electronics newb but I think it would be interesting
04:53 parag0n yeah
04:54 parag0n you learn a lot more
04:54 Kingsy so you think as a base
04:54 Kingsy http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/130602974681, with arduino starter kit, that usually comes with small breadboard do I need a larger one?
04:55 Kingsy also http://www.amazon.co.uk/123-Robotics-Experiments-Evil-Genius/dp/0071413588 <-- as a guide.. do I need a chip? or is that included in the arduino starter kit ?
04:55 parag0n http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/260827177731 is a good starter kit i think
04:56 parag0n the arduino is a deveopment board, the motherboard + CPU for your robot
04:56 Kingsy ok so.. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/130602974681, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/260827177731 and http://www.amazon.co.uk/123-Robotics-Experiments-Evil-Genius/dp/0071413588 ? is that everything I would need to get started?
04:56 Kingsy and a pc of course :)
04:58 parag0n you also need a motor driver. you can either do this by getting the chip and wiring it up on your breadboard, or get a motor driver 'shield' that fist on top of the arduino
04:58 parag0n the shield is a prewired piece of extra stuff that stacks on top of the arduino board
04:59 parag0n http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/280649002442 this one can drive two motors
04:59 Kingsy hmm so the motor driver isnt something you would write yourself? or are you talking about something physical?
05:01 Kingsy parag0n: just from what we discussed I assumed the arduino starter kit would be the thing that you would use the drive the motor
05:15 parag0n the arduino starter it is an arduino board and a load of handy bits you can use with it (LEDs, switches, a remote control etc)
05:19 Kingsy ah, but you need a motor driver seperatly
05:19 Kingsy ok well thats really cool, I think thats all I need
05:20 Kingsy I guess, to get started
05:26 parag0n there might be a starter kit that comes with a motor driver chip, but TBH i'd get the shield
05:27 Kingsy parag0n: what is the difference? what is a "shield" ?
05:28 parag0n a shield is an extra board that goes on top of an arduino that has a bunch of components pre-attached to it. they usually do a single extra purpose
05:29 parag0n for example, there are motor driver shields, bluetooth shields, ethernet shields
05:30 parag0n they'll normally come with libraries and example code to use the functionality they provide. It makes adding basic functionality a bit easier (a bit more lego-like)
05:30 Kingsy parag0n: what I mean is, why put it on a seperate board? why not just attach it to the same board as everything else?
05:31 parag0n the point of the arduino is a low price modular system
05:31 parag0n most people wont need motor driving, so why put it on the board when it'll increase the price?
05:32 Kingsy fair enough I guess
05:32 Kingsy I honestly would have thought motor driver would be pretty much a must for anyone.. but hey I have been doing this for 15 minutes :P
05:37 parag0n the arduino isnt just a board for robotics
05:37 parag0n its a generic devboard for making all sorts
05:38 Kingsy ah I see
05:38 parag0n for example, last year i used one to make a giant etch-a-sketch http://hacman.org.uk/project-a-sketch
05:40 Steffanx everybody is kung fu fighting
05:41 KongfuPanda exactly, Steffanx :)
05:41 Steffanx The UK wakes up :)
05:41 KongfuPanda yeah, I keep waking up at exactly 11.15
05:41 KongfuPanda for the last 4 days
05:41 KongfuPanda without an alarm
05:42 Steffanx No work/school?
05:42 KongfuPanda nope, holidays for now
05:42 KongfuPanda updating facebook :D
05:42 Steffanx Hmpf
05:42 Steffanx Facebook :S
05:42 KongfuPanda and will be working on my robot soon-ish
05:43 KongfuPanda when I write "summary notes" of last term, while I remember it
05:43 KongfuPanda haha
07:01 Kingsy I have decided to go for the 3pi robot as a starter, gives me something to program and expand while I get to grips with this
07:02 Steffanx Have fun :)
07:10 Skwint 3pi looks like a good choice tbh :)
07:10 Skwint I wish I'd seen it as an option when I started :p
07:11 Tom_itx homebuilt ftw
07:22 zhanx morning
07:23 Steffanx Good morning
07:26 zhanx mornign Steffanx
07:26 Steffanx Afternoon actually, but who cares :)
07:27 zhanx still a greeting right?
07:29 Steffanx Yeah, that's why i didn't care about morning or afternoon :)
07:29 Tom_itx good day
07:29 Steffanx A very good day Tom_itx
07:30 Tom_itx almost sent a board off with a hole thru a trace
07:30 Steffanx :)
07:30 Steffanx Lucky you
07:30 Tom_itx never let a board sit without finishing it
07:30 Steffanx Boards cant sit :P
07:31 Tom_itx i changed plugs and the mounting holes were different
07:37 zhanx so i slowly working my way through 1365 pages of manual on this uC i am learning, amazingly enough on pain meds i either zone out of it, or i forget it all.
07:40 Steffanx Which uC is it zhanx ?
07:41 zhanx stm32f4
07:41 Steffanx oh, nice
07:42 Tom_itx z, the one you linked?
07:42 zhanx yep
07:43 zhanx empty stomach = stoned in 34 minutes just hit me like a wall
07:43 zhanx i had to close my eyes to type
07:43 zhanx wow
07:44 Steffanx :S
07:44 Tom_itx want the cortex M4 one?
07:45 zhanx sure
07:45 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/ARM/
07:46 Tom_itx the STM32F100 one is there now too
07:47 zhanx grabbing both
07:47 zhanx i am getting a lib going
07:53 Tom_itx the STM32F405 407 one is there now too
07:54 zhanx name of file?
07:55 Tom_itx i should maybe rename that one
07:55 Tom_itx stm324f_data sheet
07:55 Tom_itx iirc
07:55 zhanx k
08:15 zhanx odd things people code void set_weights(double hidden[(input+1)*h])
08:23 Steffanx Dont you love that?
08:24 zhanx and they say it works most of the time......
08:24 zhanx but then they try to compile and it dont work....
08:24 Steffanx That code is even valid?
08:24 Steffanx or is it a macro ?
08:24 zhanx i hope not and no that was gcc
08:25 zhanx i put them on /ignore after i was told i was wrong etc
08:27 Steffanx It doesn't look valid to me, but who am i?
08:28 zhanx or he has more issues trust me
08:30 zhanx set_weights(double hidden_weights[INPUT_NEURONS*HIDDEN_NEURONS],
08:30 zhanx double output_weights[HIDDEN_NEURONS*OUTPUT_NEURONS])
08:58 rue_house hmm whats z up to...
08:58 Steffanx Who knows
09:04 zhanx ordering cable tv
09:04 zhanx :D
09:04 rue_house sounds like your having to build an ai to do it
09:05 zhanx someone was attempting an ai on an avr328
09:05 rue_house huh
09:06 zhanx they couldn't figure out why they pass a larger array to a function they set the max size in the function declare etc..
09:06 rue_house hmm
09:07 zhanx instead of passing the array they took all the uC ram up at build time etc
09:07 rue_house yup
09:07 zhanx everything gobal etc
09:07 zhanx global
09:07 rue_house university student?
09:07 zhanx yep
09:08 zhanx used to computers and not having to code good etc
09:08 rue_house I'm working on some cod for an editor I wrote in 2001
09:09 zhanx still?
09:09 rue_house .. gee alots changed about how I do things since then..
09:09 zhanx thought you would be at work
09:09 rue_house picking away at it, I dont get more than about an hour at a time
09:09 rue_house I lave in about 20 min
09:09 zhanx oh yea time difference
09:11 rue_house on the fn that draws the text, there was a gotoxy(y,x) that was coded as x,y THAT took me a while...
09:11 zhanx fun
09:12 rue_house back in the say I did it all as c++, changing it all to C now
09:12 zhanx why the change up
09:13 rue_house I'v never needed to inherit anything, ever
09:13 rue_house aside from fn namespace, there is nothing else in c++ that insterests me
09:15 rue_house my C stuff is all re-entrant safe, so I dont need objects
09:17 zhanx good point
09:19 rue_house I dispise operator overloading
09:30 Kingsy why do they ever bother selling that 3pi robot without the usb controller?
09:30 Kingsy "a robot that is impossible for a computer to interface with"
09:40 zhanx rue_house: and he figured it out with a bit of nudging
09:40 zhanx Kingsy: serial port
09:43 Kingsy zhanx: umm, serial to what? the 3pi doesnt have a serial connection
09:44 zhanx Kingsy: this right here http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/975 ?
09:44 Kingsy zhanx: yeah.. forgive me btw, this is my first day even looking at these
09:44 zhanx and yes last time check the 328p chip has serial port
09:45 Kingsy zhanx: where ? --> http://www.pololu.com/picture/view/0J843 <--
09:46 zhanx http://www.pololu.com/picture/view/0J845 <- they have to be found its all digital pins 0 and 1 are rx /tx on the uC
09:46 zhanx besides its got isp
09:47 Kingsy zhanx: what is isp?
09:48 zhanx its the way to program the board,
09:48 Kingsy zhanx: yeah but how do you interface with it?
09:48 zhanx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-system_programming
09:48 zhanx http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1300
09:49 Kingsy right that is what I am saying, so to program the robot you need to buy that controller, why even sell it without it?
09:50 zhanx cuase people have them already
09:50 Kingsy ah I see.
09:50 zhanx i have ones that do the same job but not that one etc..
09:51 zhanx ok nap time
09:52 Kingsy ok np..
10:20 Skwint love the 3pi "capable of 3 feet per second!"
10:20 Skwint 2 miles per hour :p
10:20 Skwint still, atleast that means when it goes wrong you can catch the damn thing
10:20 wint glares at his
10:23 r0b-_ lol
10:23 r0b-_ yea about that
10:24 r0b-_ my base will move about that
10:25 r0b-_ thats why i dont wanna use a rc car to mod
10:32 r0b-_ though in a pinch i have a nice car
16:36 thylln am I allowed to post free ebooks here?
16:36 thylln or is that against the rules?
16:37 zhanx you can if someone asks for them
16:38 thylln someone was talking about this earlier
16:38 thylln http://library.nu/docs/2A3JU59SCZ/123%20Robotics%20Experiments%20for%20the%20Evil%20Genius%20%28TAB%20Robotics%29
20:01 the_jester greets
20:01 zhanx the_jester: you running linux?
20:05 the_jester nope
20:05 rue_house heh
20:08 zhanx rue seen this page before? http://www.modk.it
20:10 rue_house oh dear. no
20:10 rue_house spinoff from lego .. watsitscalled
20:11 zhanx yep for the avr chips
20:11 rue_house 'try now' not free!
20:11 rue_house they did it different than the lego stuff, looks like an ok job
20:12 rue_house looks like it educates fundamental code structure
20:12 zhanx yep for kids and i got the linux version of it working today
20:12 zhanx so that you can keep it open and free
20:13 rue_house interesing
20:13 zhanx need arduino tho to upload code but it works
20:14 zhanx grabbed this http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/grove-starter-kit-p-709.html?cPath=0 for my nephews to use with that
20:14 zhanx since i cant be there to show them how to solder and stuff
20:15 zhanx combine (minus the price) the two and its easy for kids to start
20:16 rue_house intesting
20:17 zhanx its a step right?
20:21 Tom_itx please use a supported brouser
20:21 Tom_itx pfft
20:21 zhanx what browser you got?
20:21 zhanx i.e?
20:21 Tom_itx yup
20:21 zhanx wow
20:22 rue_house hahah they dont support ie
20:22 Tom_itx not that i care but it's a good percent of audience
20:23 zhanx its something about the fact they are using py for it
20:24 the_jester How are you Rue?
20:24 Tom_itx looks ok
20:24 Tom_itx better than the first mindstorms
20:24 Tom_itx haven
20:24 Tom_itx t
20:25 Tom_itx seen any of the others
20:25 zhanx its one of the better ones so far to come out
20:25 Tom_itx for half of us
20:25 zhanx well its meant for kids
20:25 the_jester das blinken Lights
20:29 lok ponders resig
20:29 zhanx Tom_itx: know of anything better out to teach kids?
20:30 Tom_itx haven't really looked
20:30 Tom_itx it looks ok
20:30 zhanx figure its a start right?
20:30 orlok i'd actually try going to work for the government
20:31 orlok but all those jobs are in canberra
20:38 rue_house the_jester, I'm reviving my old edit project
20:38 rue_house its a fight every step of the way
20:41 the_jester your edit project?
20:43 the_jester blink blink blink
20:43 thylln we are discussin machine vision and its relation to robotics in in #ai
20:46 the_jester rue have you got etchant?
20:46 zhanx ai is out of my league thylln
20:46 the_jester silly question i think...
20:47 zhanx the_jester: what doesnt rue have
20:47 the_jester an arduino
20:47 the_jester ;)
20:47 the_jester doesnt belive in them
20:48 the_jester they are like santa?, only for children
20:49 zhanx well he started before they came otu
20:49 zhanx out
20:50 theBear santa started before they invented children ?
20:50 zhanx yep
20:51 zhanx like the egg and chicken thing
20:51 theBear heh
20:52 Tom_itx he was just a drunk white haird old man though
20:52 zhanx who played with kids
20:53 theBear carefull, that's me right now apart from the white hair part
20:54 anx stares at michael jacksons g
20:55 theBear i might be gettin a bit skinny, but i'm not even close to a ghost of that apparition, plus he didn't like the drink how i do
20:55 zhanx lol
20:56 theBear i actually quite enjoyed the 'lap swimming' last night, aside from being outside, not needing a walking stick and seeing some friends, it made me think i might not have to waste away while i can't walk
21:04 the_jester rue..
21:05 the_jester anyone know if he has a breadboard max 232 design?
21:06 the_jester like a sticker he calls them
21:07 the_jester DB9 i meant to say, not max 232
21:30 theBear lol
21:31 theBear i'd be shocked if there wasn't a max232 or similar-function stickr (from memory that's the spelling <grin>) the idea (at least initially, all those years ago) was to have all the common/basic stuff he or anyone else would need to do easy/quick dev work with a breadboard, so there should be at least power reg/supply, programmer (maybe just header), serial, maybe a buffered paralell byte with a bit more current than an avr can do, that kinda thing
21:32 theBear all the things that even in your first project or two you think 'damn, if only i had another of those on a handy little board ready to go for this ..." troubleshooting/testing/diagnosing/2nd project etc etc
22:25 rue_house the_jester, sorry again
22:25 rue_house cleaning up for birthday party
22:25 rue_house the_jester, I have a db9 rs232 sticker and a rs232 converter sticker
22:26 rue_house mmm stikr