#robotics Logs
Oct 23 2011
#robotics Calendar
00:01 Tom_itx tell me something
00:02 Tom_itx why does the log bot log all the nick changes to all the channels instead of the one it's in?
00:02 Tom_itx maybe i should kill that
00:02 rue_mohr why have it log nick changes at all?
00:02 Tom_itx in case i try to trick you in the log?
00:02 Tom_itx i dunno
00:03 Tom_itx it did it by default and i haven't removed it yet
00:09 Tom_itx haha
00:09 Tom_itx i was watching the log and all the sudden it quit
00:09 Tom_itx started a new day :)
00:19 Tom_itx can't seem to find the color change
00:27 Tom_itx maybe that did it
00:28 rue_mohr I'm gonna go watch nothing happen here in my shop
00:28 Tom_itx i'm gonna go sleep
00:54 rue_shop HEY
00:54 rue_shop ARE YOU ASLEEP YET?
00:54 Tom_itx YES
00:54 rue_shop ARE YOUDREAMING ANYTHING GOOD TOM?
00:55 Tom_itx i can't find the color change line
00:56 Tom_itx wanna hear a funny?
00:59 rue_shop WHATS FUNNY TOM?
01:00 Tom_itx she was watching a spooky movie on lifetime just now and the scene was in a church. we were just in that very same church in Savannah a couple weeks ago
01:00 Tom_itx i walked up to check on things and she said ... isn't that the same...
01:01 rue_shop :)
01:01 Tom_itx they film alot of stuff there i hear
01:01 Tom_itx we saw the park where forest gump sat on the bench
01:01 Tom_itx and the church where the feather fell from etc
01:01 rue_shop we were watching the end of one of the marvel movies, and it was vancouver, lions gate bridge
01:07 Tom_itx ok now it's time to sleep
01:32 rue_shop well rough tests, it looks like the solinoids respond down to atleast 14ms
01:33 rue_shop pull about 90mA when on
01:34 rue_shop 90mA, 80V
01:35 rue_shop 7.2W
01:35 rue_shop well, the transistors are't getting hot...
01:36 rue_shop the only thing getting hot/warm is the solinoid coil
01:36 rue_shop ok, so I need to be able to work from about 20ms down
01:36 rue_shop k
01:37 rue_shop hmm there are ...
01:37 rue_shop 188 valves
01:38 rue_shop 1.3kW when all on...
01:38 rue_shop yikes
01:38 rue_shop ~17A off the 80V supply
01:40 rue_shop thats gonna have to be one hell of an inverter
01:50 rue_shop2 tome your irq led flasher isnt working
02:03 RyanS Anyone done any design of BEAM robots/analog robots? apparently there's not really any commercial application for them
02:06 rue_shop heh, the driver transistor is actually COLD
02:06 rue_shop RyanS heh, and the documents on advanced interfacing with them were destroyed
02:06 rue_shop I know, I have a printout
02:06 rue_shop before they were taken offline
02:07 rue_shop er sorry, I mean nervous netwroks
02:09 rue_shop2 odd
02:12 rue_shop2 aha, my code, that uses 'signal' works, toms code, that uses 'isr' dosn't work
02:16 RyanS What documents on interfacing?
02:22 rue_shop hmm I think there are erratta in the m32 timer descriptions
02:23 rue_shop ctc and fast pwm modes dont do what it looks like they should
02:24 RyanS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J7m7Y1evgQ&feature=related would this kill a DC motor?.. obviously washing machines aren't designed for that high RPM
02:45 rue_shop hmm, .505ms
03:06 RyanS You talking to yourself again? :)
03:17 rue_shop maybe
03:18 rue_shop the washing machine valve is really impressing me
03:18 rue_shop its responding to some REALLY short pulses
03:18 rue_shop I dont think it'll have any problems operating a pneumatic muscle in a servo loop
03:19 rue_shop I'm kinda tempted to go right to coding the control loop
03:19 rue_shop I should know what hte min on-pulse time is and how long the solinoid takes to reset ( min off time)
03:20 rue_shop or I just dont work it like that
03:21 RyanS It's like your stream of consciousness :) this channel
03:21 rue_shop well, nobody else is steaming
03:22 rue_shop mmm, I need to sleep on this.
03:22 RyanS streaming * ?
03:27 rue_mohr sofar, using washing machine water valves for air, for driving the pneumatic muscles of a 12' mecha is looking rather promising
03:27 rue_mohr they need like 80vdc, but whatever
03:28 rue_mohr they are responding to a few dozen ms or less
03:28 rue_mohr I need an air line and a water setup to be more sure
03:28 rue_mohr if all goes well, i could have a working servomuscle by tommorow evening
03:30 rue_mohr I still dont know how to code for a complimentrary set of actuators
03:30 rue_mohr I wonder if I should just treat them like independent ones that just happen to be set to a complimentrary position
03:31 rue_mohr 188 valves
03:31 rue_mohr I was gonna spread it across a few controllers
03:32 rue_mohr 32 axies per controller, 6 controllers?
03:34 RyanS What are you building a 16 legged walker??
03:35 rue_mohr no a 12' mecha
03:36 RyanS or you're building a pasteurisation and homogenisation plant in your shed and need 188 valves in the pipeline? :P
03:37 rue_mohr no the wachine mchine valves control the pneumatic mulscles for the mecha
03:37 rue_mohr how else could I build a 12' mecha for $120?
03:39 RyanS the muscles inflate and thus expand? pushing joint?
03:39 rue_mohr have you not seen air mulscles?
03:40 rue_mohr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq1uXv_NfrQ
03:40 rue_mohr that is my test muscle
03:42 RyanS It contracts when it inflates?
03:42 rue_mohr yes
03:42 rue_mohr neat eh?
03:42 rue_mohr easy and CHEAP to make
03:42 rue_mohr and STRONG
03:42 rue_mohr but tough to control
03:47 RyanS and I heard that electric muscle wire is pretty crap?
03:52 rue_mohr yea, if your project is big enough airmuslces are awesome
03:56 rue_mohr hmm I'z looking for a image of a mecha like I'm planning to make, but there dont seem to be much of any non-battle mechas on the internet
04:02 rue_mohr http://digital-art-gallery.com/picture/big/3628 thats a neat image tho
04:20 RyanS That looks like the malfunctioning prototype robot from RoboCop, I think it shot the designers
04:21 RyanS Which is a stupid name for a movie about a cyborg, not a robot
08:46 Tom_itx http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqBw7XapJKk
11:56 rue_mohr Tom_itx, pls rename your bot to something that occurs alphabetically after you
11:56 Tom_itx haha
11:56 Tom_itx i was thinking about that today
11:56 rue_mohr now, I was going to say I'd rather see a vid of your cnc
11:57 Tom_itx oh
11:57 Tom_itx i forgot what that video was now ^^
11:57 Tom_itx i'm not sure i have a good way to shoot video
11:57 Tom_itx the one is uber crappy i think
11:58 Tom_itx and i haven't figured it out on my camera or if it will
11:59 Tom_itx i bet this one will getcha too
11:59 rue_mohr you havea good camera dont ya?
11:59 Tom_itx Nikon D80
11:59 Tom_itx and others
11:59 Tom_itx i have a camcorder but it's a cheapo
12:00 Tom_itx and a good one but it's old
12:00 rue_mohr even old cameras let you take 20 second videos
12:00 Tom_itx 20sec isn't much
12:02 Tom_itx better?
12:03 Tom_itx zlog
12:03 rue_mohr Tom_itx, yes
12:03 Tom_itx doesn't interfere with z either
12:03 Tom_itx that was my next thought
12:04 rue_mohr thaks :)
12:04 Tom_itx one more boot
12:05 Tom_itx may as well
12:05 Tom_itx aww shit
12:05 Tom_itx i forgot to copy the file
12:33 Tom_itx i suppose mech talk should be directed here
12:34 rue_mohr copy the file?
12:35 Tom_itx huh?
12:35 Tom_itx i was talking in avr
12:36 rue_mohr kim<tab><tab><tab>
12:36 rue_mohr hmm
12:37 rue_mohr 90mA, that makes me feel rather guilty about pulling togethor 188 7A bipolars
12:37 Tom_itx mosfet
12:38 rue_mohr 80V, better to use bipolar
12:38 rue_mohr ok todays todo list, in no particular order
12:39 rue_mohr -) fix rear doorframe
12:39 rue_mohr -) install makeup air duct to furnace
12:39 Tom_itx i need to make a new probe body and bottom
12:39 Tom_itx i may get one done
12:39 rue_mohr -) build pneumatic test platform with avr loop controller
12:40 rue_mohr Tom_itx, cant you make it?
12:40 Tom_itx make what?
12:40 Tom_itx i'm gonna make a new one yes
12:40 rue_mohr oh you mean you may get it done, not get someone else to
12:40 Tom_itx i was laying it out this morning
12:40 Tom_itx i may get of my butt to get it done = get it done
12:41 rue_mohr -) get some work done on the ups battery array
12:41 Tom_itx heard from kat?
12:41 rue_mohr no she's moving
12:41 Tom_itx for sure?
12:42 rue_mohr near as I can tell, she bought a trailer away from her neighbours on a small plot of land
12:42 Tom_itx i new about the trailer but i didn't know she got it
13:05 rue_mohr ok I'm gonna have to get up to get anything done today
13:05 rue_mohr <rue_mohr> -) fix rear doorframe
13:05 rue_mohr <rue_mohr> -) install makeup air duct to furnace
13:05 rue_mohr <rue_mohr> -) build pneumatic test platform with avr loop controller
13:05 rue_mohr <rue_mohr> -) get some work done on the ups battery array
13:05 rue_mohr hmmm
13:05 rue_mohr whats a nice starter
13:05 Tom_itx you keep repeating yourself
13:06 rue_mohr its called refresh
13:06 rue_mohr just be glad I dont need it every 5ms
13:06 mumptai whats a nice starter?
13:07 Tom_itx ok maybe i can get a chunk of round bar cut off
13:07 rue_mohr work on the battery array, cause its goal-less
13:07 rue_mohr its just a progress project
13:07 rue_mohr if I go install 3 wires, it'll be progress and I'll be warmed up to do something else
13:08 rue_mohr so I need to get dressed
13:10 rue_mohr ok,,,
13:18 rue_shop2 <rue_mohr> <rue_mohr> -) fix rear doorframe
13:18 rue_shop2 <rue_mohr> <rue_mohr> -) install makeup air duct to furnace
13:18 rue_shop2 <rue_mohr> <rue_mohr> -) build pneumatic test platform with avr loop controller
13:18 rue_shop2 <rue_mohr> <rue_mohr> -) get some work done on the ups battery array
13:31 Tom_itx ok 2 slugs cut off
13:31 Tom_itx one for me and one for z
13:47 home lol
14:43 rue_shop with all the visitors I get I should set the bar lower on a days tasks
14:45 home so hungry
14:45 home for some robotics
15:13 rue_shop ooo the air muscle is responding really well
15:13 rue_shop I can tell I'm gonna need two loops, a force loop, and a position loop
15:14 rue_shop2 if I split it among 6 controllers
15:14 rue_shop2 I can use the 3A breakers I have
15:46 rue_shop2 ok I have pics and vids of the pneumatic muscle system for yall
15:46 rue_shop2 this is working SO well!
15:47 rue_shop2 its amazing the resolution of the movement you can make
15:47 rue_shop2 the setup I have 'steps' it, and the steps can be really really tiny
15:47 rue_shop2 it also unloads the muscle faster than I thought
15:49 rue_mohr working this out would put me so far ahead on the mecha
15:53 rue_mohr !assist robots/sparrow1
15:53 tobbor Possibly http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/robots/sparrow1
15:53 Tom_itx ok one body done
15:53 Tom_itx part one anyway
15:56 rue_mohr arg, how do I sign into youtube NOW?
16:13 rue_mohr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JPpA1llSm4
16:13 rue_mohr thats unloading the muscle, iirc
16:14 rue_mohr http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/robots/sparrow1/p1030525-valvetest.jpg <-- there's the setup
16:17 Tom_itx what's the bladder material?
16:24 rue_mohr its a animal baloon
16:24 rue_mohr the long ones
16:25 rue_mohr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-WgzH-UZgM <-- thats the loading valve, I dialed it down so you can see how fine it moves
16:25 rue_mohr air supply is 60psi
16:25 rue_mohr the 'pump' sound is actaully just the valve
16:29 rue_mohr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSKmS787j2k&feature=related I'm 100% sure I can to better than that
16:33 rue_mohr to keep the movement controlled they are restricting the air flow, instead of pulsing the valves
16:33 rue_mohr oh well
16:36 rue_mohr http://www.ebay.ca/itm/50-long-animal-twist-LATEX-balloons-125cm-Low-price-/300599746439?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fd241f87 <-- tom, like those
16:36 Tom_itx oh
16:36 Tom_itx not very heavy are they?
16:37 rue_mohr nope, I"ll work out durability later
16:37 Tom_itx i think this probe would fit inside the other one
16:37 rue_mohr it was suggested that putting a stalking between the baloon and the mesh might keep wear down
16:37 Tom_itx and baby powder
16:38 rue_mohr maybe
16:38 rue_mohr I still need to figure out if this all works
16:38 rue_mohr I should work on that back door for a bit
16:39 rue_mohr oh later, room mates sleeping
16:53 rue_shop2 hmm servo
17:01 KongfuPanda Tom-Itx, rue_mohr, hello :)
17:02 KongfuPanda you buying balloons for robot?
17:05 rue_shop2 yes, for the 12' mecha
17:11 KongfuPanda you are so inventive :)
17:20 rue_shop actaully, I'm just a cheapscate witha passion for technology
17:20 rue_shop2 ok this should be hard
17:20 rue_shop2 just like a motor driver I ahve two control signals
17:21 rue_shop2 one makes the actuator move one way, the other makes it go the other way
17:21 rue_shop2 pwm like control
17:22 rue_shop2 that behaves differently on each side
17:22 KongfuPanda I have no idea what you are doing actually :D probably better not to try to explain, I'm not so familiar with hardware
17:23 rue_shop2 did you see the youtube videos
17:23 rue_shop2 ?
17:23 duckinator hi rue
17:24 rue_shop2 hows tings?
17:25 rue_shop2 so what code did I do that works remotly like this
17:25 duckinator aside from my harddrive being a bit weird, pretty good. and yourself?
17:25 rue_shop2 its a cross between the servo solinoid and a dc motor servo
17:27 rue_shop2 maybe I'll work on this more later
17:29 HylianSavior Sup __mike__
17:29 __mike__ ohai
17:29 HylianSavior This is OP~
17:29 __mike__ shit that weas fats
17:29 __mike__ fast*
17:30 HylianSavior I was already on freenode
17:30 __mike__ ah
17:30 __mike__ haha
17:30 __mike__ wonder if that collegegoing guy is gonna show
17:30 __mike__ and /diy/ might actually get be back onto 4chan regularly
17:30 __mike__ about time if you ask me
17:31 HylianSavior I've found my niche board with /diy/
17:31 Tom_itx new here?
17:31 __mike__ Tom_itx: nopw, remember orm?
17:32 __mike__ <-- same guy
17:32 __mike__ hiya
17:32 __mike__ still have those Atmels lying around, never had the time.
17:33 __mike__ BUT THE BOX LIVES ON!
17:34 __mike__ Another weeaboo name, /diy/?
17:34 KongfuPanda rue_shop2, sorry, was in another channel. Yes, I saw the videos
17:34 UiharaKazari my regular nick was already taken, __mike__
17:35 __mike__ by the way, HylianSavior, to answer your question, why use ARM when a 32 bit atmel could suffice?
17:35 HylianSavior Aren't the 32-bit Atmels ARM-based?
17:35 __mike__ or wait for Intel to kick the shit out of them in the mobile market >_>
17:35 Tom_itx no
17:35 __mike__ Atmel is Atmel, ARM is ARm
17:35 HylianSavior http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/devices.asp?category_id=163&family_id=607&subfamily_id=2138
17:35 HylianSavior hmm...
17:35 __mike__ Plus they're cheaper and easier to work with.
17:36 HylianSavior I don't have any experience with them- I'll take a look at them
17:37 __mike__ They're about the same as your Parallax chip only more general
17:37 HylianSavior I was thinking of using C# micro on an ARM...
17:37 __mike__ and don't have a shit scripting language/
17:37 __mike__ my god why C#?
17:37 HylianSavior because I only know how to implement search algorithms in OOP \o/
17:38 __mike__ I like C# and all, but ARM->Linux->Mono->PAIN
17:38 __mike__ Atmels can use C++ iirc
17:38 HylianSavior I know ASM and Java/C#
17:38 HylianSavior nothing in between :>
17:38 __mike__ woah... what?
17:38 __mike__ then use java at least...
17:38 HylianSavior on a uC?
17:39 __mike__ why not? phones do it
17:39 HylianSavior I suppose...
17:39 HylianSavior I do have some limited C knowledge... reading my way through K&R
17:39 __mike__ might have to do a bit of extra work unless your chip has decent storage
17:40 HylianSavior Would I use structs for search algorithms?
17:40 __mike__ of course
17:40 __mike__ I'm more C++ than C, but I know enough.
17:41 HylianSavior all my classes have just trained me to think OOP
17:41 __mike__ I know right?
17:41 __mike__ There are also tons of free libraries out there to help you out with C
17:41 HylianSavior mmhmm
17:42 __mike__ It's all really just memory manipulation and bit twiddling
17:42 HylianSavior The Parallax Propeller is interesting
17:42 HylianSavior although i've heard some negative comments about it
17:42 __mike__ their scripting language looks interesting to say the least
17:43 HylianSavior it's object oriented... and somewhat well documented
17:43 __mike__ I don't really get it though, what is it supposed to do?
17:43 HylianSavior i'm not sure why they came up with their own, either
17:43 __mike__ just a general uC or is it specifically for motor controll
17:43 HylianSavior it's a general uC
17:43 __mike__ why?!
17:43 HylianSavior 8 32-bit cores
17:43 __mike__ .....
17:43 HylianSavior everything needs to be bit-banged
17:44 __mike__ Just use an Atmel
17:44 HylianSavior so 8 cores sounds cool
17:44 HylianSavior until you have 2 cores for SPI
17:44 HylianSavior another dedicated to send servo pulses
17:44 HylianSavior etc
17:44 __mike__ If it needs to be threaded, it needs to be written better.
17:44 __mike__ My game engine project I use 0 threads except for the oines fmod creates./
17:45 HylianSavior It does make thinking about UAVs simpler though...
17:45 HylianSavior since it's real time and all
17:45 __mike__ Then just use smaller dedicated chips
17:45 HylianSavior hmm, true
17:45 qojan How do I register on freenode?
17:45 __mike__ And you can always send signals between them.
17:46 __mike__ qojan: ask nickserv
17:46 HylianSavior qojan, /msg nickserv help
17:46 qojan thank you
17:46 __mike__ qojan: /diy/?
17:47 HylianSavior __mike__, what are your thoughts on PIC32s?
17:47 __mike__ I'm more an applications guy, but a co-worker of mine likes PIC32's because they have better processing power over the Atmels
17:48 HylianSavior microchip has some great support, and PICKITs are cheap...
17:48 HylianSavior I would imagine I need some JTAG thing to program that Atmel
17:48 rue_shop why not just use an arm?
17:48 qojan umm
17:48 __mike__ But from what I have heard, atmels have more features over the PICs
17:48 __mike__ rue_shop:
17:48 __mike__ ah shit, my bad
17:49 __mike__ paste fucked up
17:49 rue_shop if you need a processor designed for computation power, use a popular one that there's a wide code base for
17:49 qojan can someone give me the exact code i tred /msg nickserv register password email
17:49 rue_shop linux dosn't run on pic32's
17:49 rue_shop runs on real processors
17:49 rue_shop like an arm
17:49 HylianSavior I don't need linux though
17:49 __mike__ rue_shop: http://boards.4chan.org/diy/res/8038#9182
17:49 __mike__ HylianSavior is OP
17:50 rue_shop there is merrit in seperating out the chips you need for io control (avr's) and the ones you need for computation power
17:50 __mike__ HylianSavior: if you're talking about languages like C# and java, an OS makes it a bit easier
17:50 aggrav8d so i replaced the 6 LAC control boards on my stewart platform with 3 dual h bridges. now their tests are inconsistent - sometimes they move when i tell them to, sometimes they don't. no idea what i'm doing wrong yet.
17:50 rue_shop aggrav8d how many actuators on that platform?
17:50 UiharaKazari qojan: that's the correct command, did nickserv give you an error?
17:50 HylianSavior I was thinking I'd just code on them straight without any RTOS...
17:50 qojan yes
17:51 __mike__ but then again with Java being owned by oracle, I don't even want to think about the red tape bullshit they are wrapping it in
17:51 HylianSavior We're moving out of hobbyist uC territory :<
17:51 rue_shop I was wondering if you might be into me writing some code to control it
17:51 UiharaKazari which was?
17:51 __mike__ HylianSavior: not really
17:51 qojan OK it worked now
17:51 qojan thansk
17:51 HylianSavior netduino uses ARM with .net micro, and I don't think they have any OS lying on top
17:51 qojan thanks
17:51 HylianSavior maybe a custom bootloader though, to load code over USB
17:52 __mike__ basically
17:52 __mike__ but mono sucks
17:52 __mike__ and that's what they are most likely using
17:52 HylianSavior hmm
17:52 __mike__ trust me
17:52 __mike__ mono just sucks
17:52 __mike__ avoid it
17:52 __mike__ like the plague
17:52 HylianSavior I don't see any mention of mono, though
17:53 HylianSavior .net micro is straight from microsoft
17:53 __mike__ if you're going for ARM though, C++ is an open option to you
17:53 HylianSavior I'd rather code in C than C++, tbh
17:53 HylianSavior C++ is mysterious to me
17:53 mike__ facep
17:53 HylianSavior :>
17:53 qojan Anyway, I'm new to robotics I joined the club in my HS and I want to know a little bit more about it before i go.....Can someone give me a brief analysis and tell me the position in robotics, also i'm thinking of doing the programming can someone tell me the best language to use for programming robots
17:53 __mike__ qojan: again I ask, /diy/?
17:54 qojan diy?
17:54 HylianSavior I don't think he's from /diy/
17:54 __mike__ 4chan /diy/ board
17:54 __mike__ apparently
17:54 qojan whats diy
17:54 __mike__ but as far as programming languages are concerned, learn C or C++
17:54 HylianSavior Do I need a JTAG debugger for ARMs?
17:54 qojan what about java...
17:55 __mike__ qojan: there are embedded versions of java, but concepts are more important than languages
17:55 qojan ok
17:55 qojan I asked them a while ago and they said they were going to try to do some in java?
17:55 __mike__ qojan: the thing about programming is that it is more theory than implementation. if you learn the concepts, they can be applied to any langugae
17:56 qojan ohhh
17:56 qojan so what language is best for learning the theorys
17:56 qojan ?
17:56 qojan and concepts
17:56 __mike__ C is the easiest to pick up.
17:56 HylianSavior learn C, qojan
17:56 qojan kk then my question is whats the diffrence between c and c++
17:57 qojan I hava a huge college c++ book
17:57 __mike__ C++ is basically an enhancement of C
17:57 qojan and idk what to do with it
17:57 HylianSavior C++ is C that tries to be object oriented
17:57 __mike__ C is a language that is functional, C++ is object oriented.
17:57 qojan and what is the difference
17:58 HylianSavior qojan, do you know java
17:58 qojan A little
17:58 __mike__ java is object oriented
17:58 HylianSavior you create "objects" from classes in java, right?
17:58 __mike__ pure object oriented
17:58 qojan yes
17:58 HylianSavior C has none of that
17:58 __mike__ C++ is the same way, only with far fewer features.
17:58 HylianSavior it has functions
17:58 qojan but i never knew what the difference is
17:58 qojan was
17:59 qojan so which would be better for robotics?
17:59 HylianSavior Why don't you try learning C first
17:59 __mike__ that's just it
17:59 HylianSavior it's easier to move up to Java from C than the other way around
17:59 __mike__ what is best for your project depends entirely on the project.
17:59 home C++ wins
17:59 HylianSavior I think he needs to learn to program first
17:59 home learn python
18:00 home or erland
18:00 __mike__ home: don't confuse the lad
18:00 home 0_0 fine
18:00 qojan i know python
18:00 __mike__ qojan: just learn C
18:00 __mike__ so you do have some propr experience, C should be a cake walk then
18:00 __mike__ prior*
18:00 qojan a cake walk, lol?
18:00 __mike__ yep
18:01 __mike__ it's your code, so in the end it's only as hard as you make it to be
18:01 qojan a walk in the park or a piece of cake?
18:01 __mike__ both
18:01 __mike__ i's saying it will be easy
18:01 qojan :P anyway, c or c++ just tell me why one is better than the other for robotics
18:01 __mike__ C
18:02 HylianSavior ^
18:02 qojan I just want to know why.
18:02 __mike__ lets you do more at the lower level.
18:02 HylianSavior low level, i guess
18:02 qojan ohh ok
18:02 HylianSavior learn ASM \o/
18:02 qojan for embedded systems
18:02 __mike__ you can custom tailor your code for each processor whereas C++ assumes alot
18:02 __mike__ and is better for larger systems (such as a game engine or applications programming)
18:03 qojan can c be used to make programs widgets games apps etc?
18:03 __mike__ it can, but nowadays in the real world doing that makes you lose money
18:04 __mike__ the original id tech engines were written in C
18:04 __mike__ 4 and 5 were written in C++
18:04 qojan In todays age what do professionals use to make high end robots?
18:04 __mike__ C
18:04 qojan I heard java
18:05 HylianSavior Java?
18:05 qojan yes java
18:05 HylianSavior I don't think so...
18:05 qojan for AI
18:05 qojan stuff
18:05 __mike__ HylianSavior: actually they can
18:05 HylianSavior well, they can
18:05 __mike__ Java is just like python when you get right down to it
18:05 __mike__ only fucktons faster
18:05 HylianSavior I don't have any experience with python
18:05 __mike__ and C is a metric fuckton faster than Java
18:05 UiharaKazari Java is faster than python?
18:05 qojan yes
18:06 __mike__ i meant in that it is a language that has to be run by a runner
18:06 HylianSavior side note: apparently iRobot's Roombas are coded in straight assembly
18:06 HylianSavior like a boss
18:06 qojan python is slow af
18:06 __mike__ the JVM is just line saying python someshit.py in your terminal
18:06 __mike__ just like*
18:06 qojan wait what about ASM
18:06 __mike__ ASM is when you really want to optimize your code
18:06 HylianSavior qojan, enjoy your headache
18:06 UiharaKazari python gets compiled to bytecode at runtime, though
18:06 qojan lol
18:07 __mike__ UiharaKazari: and is run as bytecode
18:07 HylianSavior it's the most optimized, qojan, but you usually won't need to go there
18:07 __mike__ whereas Java is JIT compiled
18:07 HylianSavior C is low level enough
18:07 qojan ok
18:07 __mike__ and C lets you inline assembly where you need it
18:07 qojan so what is typically used in high school robotic teams?
18:07 HylianSavior uhh
18:07 __mike__ so there is really no reason for "pure assembly" anymore
18:07 HylianSavior FTC uses RobotC
18:07 __mike__ qojan: prebuilt kits and java
18:08 __mike__ but that's never any fun
18:08 HylianSavior which is just C with a bunch of NXT specific robotics functions
18:08 qojan why java/?
18:08 __mike__ qojan: because it's free, relatively fast, and simplke to use
18:08 HylianSavior i haven't seen any prebuilt kits with java, __mike__
18:08 __mike__ but pointless
18:09 qojan I'm so confused
18:09 __mike__ qojan: Steps to build a robot
18:09 qojan ....
18:09 __mike__ 1) Order some ARM, Atmels, PICS whatever you want.
18:09 HylianSavior qojan, just learn C and come back
18:09 __mike__ 2) Dumpster dive for old electronics
18:09 __mike__ 3) Go tour local mom and pop computer store for opld computers
18:09 qojan eh but i dont want to waste time and then switch and so on.
18:10 HylianSavior going back to our original conversation, __mike__ , what kind of tools would I need to program these ARMs or UC3s
18:10 __mike__ 4) Just. Use. C.
18:11 __mike__ manufacturers typically have their toolchains avaiolable online, and you need a programmer to actually get the program onto the chip
18:12 __mike__ for that, asking Tom_itx or rue_shop, or even google could help you better than I could
18:13 __mike__ Mine are just collecting dust while I try to find the time to actually make the damn thing
18:13 HylianSavior bleh, sounds like money
18:13 __mike__ a bit
18:13 __mike__ but chips and programmers are cheap
18:13 HylianSavior I know TI's JTAG debuggers cost a fortune
18:13 qojan ok last question, what is c++ typically used for same as c and java.
18:14 __mike__ C++ is higher level and makes larger projects more maintainable.
18:14 HylianSavior http://boards.4chan.org/diy/res/9256
18:14 __mike__ Same as Java
18:14 HylianSavior some cool stuff... some guy built a delta bot
18:15 qojan what about c
18:15 qojan and what language is used to make AI's
18:15 HylianSavior any... I guess?
18:15 qojan sorry if i'm bothering you btw...
18:15 HylianSavior inb4lisp
18:15 __mike__ C is lower level, like we said, and works better for embedded programming
18:16 qojan ok
18:16 __mike__ Anything can be written in any language
18:16 __mike__ hell, AI can be written in assembly
18:16 qojan can you still make applications in c
18:16 HylianSavior but some might be more suited for certain applications
18:16 HylianSavior qojan, yes, but java makes it easy
18:16 qojan and c make it easy to program embedded systems, ok gotcha
18:16 __mike__ qojan: when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail
18:17 qojan That analogy makes no sense
18:17 __mike__ Same applies to programming languages
18:17 qojan ohhh ok
18:17 __mike__ ;)
18:19 rue_shop you want a free arm controller?
18:19 __mike__ http://images.4chan.org/diy/src/1319410378798.jpg - Yetanotherfuckinghexapod.jpg
18:19 HylianSavior hexapods are pretty cool
18:19 HylianSavior they don't afraid of anything
18:19 rue_shop I'd like to say that I started mine before the crazy
18:19 __mike__ ARM or arm?
18:20 rue_shop craze
18:20 __mike__ Processor or limb?
18:22 __mike__ I still want to build that tri-wheel
18:22 __mike__ with that huge-assed scooter motor I found
18:22 HylianSavior >UC3 has in-system programming
18:22 HylianSavior I'm liking this...
18:22 __mike__ Probably not what you think
18:25 HylianSavior >The UC3
18:25 HylianSavior provides fast serial programming interfaces, including USB, for production line or in system programming
18:26 HylianSavior I'm going to go ahead and assume the bootloader for this is included on the chips
18:26 HylianSavior Let's see how much a dev board costs...
18:28 qojan What are the type of programming language? oop,procedurale,.....?
18:28 __mike__ oop and procedural are about it
18:28 duckinator functional
18:29 __mike__ then you have different styles of programming that emerge from those 3
18:29 __mike__ thanks duck
18:29 qojan ohh and structured?
18:29 __mike__ HylianSavior: http://beagleboard.org/
18:30 __mike__ HylianSavior: https://www.gumstix.com/
18:31 HylianSavior both too expensive for my tastes...
18:31 lianSavior is a poor high scho
18:31 HylianSavior Alright, I'm out for now
18:31 HylianSavior Thanks for the help __mike__
18:31 HylianSavior I'll probably start idling this channel as well
18:32 __mike__ ;ater, and yq
18:32 __mike__ later and yq*
18:32 __mike__ yw*
18:32 __mike__ fuck
18:32 duckinator qojan: i think what __mike__ said + functional is about it, generally: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_programming_paradigms#Main_paradigm_approaches
18:32 __mike__ it's really just manipulating a fuckload of 1's and 0's in the end
18:33 duckinator yup
18:33 __mike__ how you do it is another story
18:33 __mike__ and there are tons of approaches to programming
18:34 __mike__ Event driven, signal driven, procedural.... too tired and distracted to think of more atm
18:35 duckinator aren't event- and signal-driven basically equivalent to defining callbacks? :P
18:35 __mike__ I wouldn't say so
18:35 __mike__ Event is OnWhatever, signal is more like....
18:35 __mike__ one sec
18:36 __mike__ http://codepad.org/rhoxLOab <--- more like that
18:36 qojan what do you like better procedurale/structured or OOP?
18:36 __mike__ OOP for the stuff I do
18:36 qojan What do you do
18:36 __mike__ game development
18:36 __mike__ applications
18:36 duckinator __mike__: ah, i see
18:37 qojan hmmm, why are you on the robotics channel?
18:37 __mike__ Because i can =D
18:37 qojan lol
18:37 __mike__ plus I've been trying to find the time to make a robot myself
18:37 qojan OOP anc be used to make robots right
18:37 __mike__ have a ton of parts
18:37 qojan lol
18:38 __mike__ it can, some uC's support a C++ compiler
18:38 duckinator __mike__: would this be considered event-driven https://gist.github.com/1308069 ? basically, when <x> happens, do <y>?
18:38 __mike__ possible
18:38 duckinator (fwiw, that's part of an irc bot that replies with "Hi!" if anyone says "hi")
18:39 __mike__ oh, yeah
18:39 __mike__ what I linked you is message driven
18:39 __mike__ Objects in my framework can send messages to each other
18:39 __mike__ Hence the "Telegram" metaphor
18:40 __mike__ (Kudos to Mat Buckland for the idea.)
18:40 duckinator i actually had never realized that even had a name ^^ and for some reason i'd thought event- and signal-driven were more similar than that
18:40 __mike__ http://angryprogrammingprimate.blogspot.com/
18:41 __mike__ latest post
18:41 __mike__ is all about it
18:41 aggrav8d http://boards.4chan.org/diy/ jesus.
18:41 __mike__ aggrav8d: what about it?
18:42 aggrav8d ...just... WHY?!
18:42 duckinator aggrav8d: oh lord, the badly-designed site, it burns. IT BURNSSSSS *twitch*
18:42 duckinator oh... 4chan...that explains it.
18:43 __mike__ duckinator: 4chan has been like that since the beginning
18:43 zhanx evening
18:43 duckinator __mike__: and it's hideous :D
18:43 __mike__ if you want a pretty looking imageboard, go to 420
18:43 duckinator i just avoid imageboards, personally
18:43 __mike__ DIY is a welcome addition if you ask me
18:44 __mike__ gotta admit it's better than all the mindless pop-culture boards
18:44 duckinator yea
18:45 aggrav8d without having touched anything my machine is suddenly working. fuck you, inconsistent results..
18:46 qojan which is a more general programming language c,c++,or java?
18:46 aggrav8d C
18:46 qojan is c procedural ?
18:46 qojan or structurd
18:46 aggrav8d c++ is c made complicated, java is C++ with every class reorganized.
18:46 aggrav8d as in, the predefined class you want is now in a file of another name.
18:46 aggrav8d your princess is in another castl.e
18:47 aggrav8d as is that period.
18:47 qojan what?
18:47 __mike__ spoken like someone who hates C++ for no reason
18:47 aggrav8d i like c++!
18:47 __mike__ color me corrected then
18:48 aggrav8d I almost never have call to use it. he's on the outside looking in. work with it for 10 years and C++ looks neat and tidy, provided you don't make some horribly subtle design mistake and have to refactor.
18:49 qojan All I want are examples i cant find any on google, tell me things that are used with java same goes for c++ and c.
18:50 duckinator qojan: from my experience, i'd say basically: C == fairly simple, C++ == less simple and therefor less general, Java == same deal as C++ but requires more memory due to the JVM (only really a problem if you're not aiming for general desktop use, in my experience)
18:50 qojan how does java cost money
18:50 __mike__ memory
18:50 duckinator i said memory, not money :P
18:50 __mike__ not money
18:51 qojan ohh lol
18:51 __mike__ (oddly enough I did a double take as well
18:51 __mike__ on that)
18:51 qojan so in all which would be the best In general for programming AI and robots
18:52 __mike__ now why in the bloody hell happened to my engine. running at 100+ fps but logic is slow
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 ckinator _o/o_ __mik
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 __mike__ C
18:52 qojan ..
18:52 duckinator qojan: C is *probably* your best bet, but don't throw C++ under the bus immediately. Java's probably out just because...well.......let me know if you ever see Java running a robot, i want to know :P
18:53 __mike__ duckinator: any robots running off of an android phone
18:53 duckinator fair enough
18:53 __mike__ google it
18:54 duckinator afaik java only works on x86, all the procs from Sun, and ARM -- so if you're not using that, you're probably going to have to stick to C or C++
18:55 __mike__ 32 bits ought to be enough for anyone
18:55 __mike__ bbl
18:56 qojan Ok sorry for disturbing your channel, thank you for the answer duckinator and no need to be mad __mike__, I just wanted to know the most optimal language for robotics...
18:56 qojan And I know I was repetitive.
20:40 aggrav8d qojan - what are you really trying to find out?
20:41 aggrav8d forgive me, but we're answering very specific questions without knowing where you're coming from.
20:41 aggrav8d what are you trying to achieve? what's your goal?
20:50 coppermine whats a wheel kit that can support 10-20lbs?
20:50 coppermine 12vdc
20:58 rue_shop aggrav8d how many actuators on that platform?
20:59 rue_shop I was wondering if you might be into me writing some code to control it
21:15 aggrav8d rue - 6;
21:16 aggrav8d coppermine - do you mean, what kind of wheel can support 10lbs on its axle?
21:16 aggrav8d i suspect the problem is more with the choice of axle than the choice of wheel.
21:17 aggrav8d rue - if you want to write code to run a stewart platform, you're more than welcome. I'm constantly changing mine as conditions change.
21:17 aggrav8d I just swapped out all the firgelli control boards for Canakit H Bridges so I can have more fine-grain control.
21:23 aggrav8d http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xQ6algm8qI
21:33 aggrav8d Ugh. I just realized I'm now FORCED to solve forward kinematics for this platform, something I've been avoiding until now.
21:34 rue_mohr huh, I thought your actuators were self contained positioning servos
21:35 aggrav8d only with the LAC boards.
21:35 aggrav8d without them I get greater speed & position control but I have to do everything myself.
21:35 aggrav8d even so...
21:35 rue_mohr have a datashet link to the controllers?
21:36 rue_mohr what kinda feedback do you get?
21:36 aggrav8d when i first turn on the SP, the LACs like to return the actuators to fully retracted as fast as they can. This is often a bad idea because they don't "play nice" when attached to the end effector plate.
21:36 aggrav8d they have to move at a certain speed to stay in synch, right? right.
21:36 aggrav8d so now when they turn on my software stupidly thinks all actuators are already at fully retracted.
21:36 rue_mohr yea, you have to interpolate them right
21:36 aggrav8d this is anything but the case.
21:37 aggrav8d so i need FK to say "get the current positions and figure out where the EE really is, then you can start moving around."
21:37 rue_mohr uh
21:38 rue_mohr what provides the feedback, a potentiomiter? emcoder?
21:38 aggrav8d potentiometer.
21:38 aggrav8d linear potentiometer.
21:38 rue_mohr ok set up as a voltage divider?
21:38 aggrav8d dunno.
21:38 rue_mohr 0-5V ?
21:38 aggrav8d yeah
21:38 rue_mohr whats the voltage range over the motion limits?
21:40 rue_mohr :) you havn't done alot of this have ya?
21:41 rue_mohr I done this a million times
21:41 rue_mohr feels like it
21:42 aggrav8d 0 at fully retracted, 5v at fully extended. i read it in on an analog pin.
21:42 aggrav8d i don't know what the questions are about.
21:42 aggrav8d i mean, what are you trying to find out?
21:43 aggrav8d datasheet for controllers...
21:43 aggrav8d on the firgelli website.
21:44 aggrav8d http://www.firgelli.com/products.php?id=42
21:44 aggrav8d downloads tab
21:47 rue_mohr aggrav8d, wow, full range, coool
21:48 rue_mohr aggrav8d, would you be willing to run some code if I came up with any?
21:48 aggrav8d incidentally... if you want to build your own stewart platform, I'm not sure I'd recommend firgellis. they were fine for testing but for $30/ea more you can get much more powerful linear actuators from firgelliauto and build a real platform that could be used for a flight simulator or something.
21:48 rue_mohr I could build a platform myself ofcourse, but I'm not into another project of that proportion
21:48 rue_mohr I can make linear actuators :)
21:49 rue_mohr for ~$5
21:49 aggrav8d well... if you write code then I have to test it before I can run it, which eats into my profit-generating hours.
21:49 rue_mohr oh, I'z just interested if I could solve it with the libraries I'v already made for that stuff
21:50 rue_mohr whe I realized how simple the math was, I got interested in throwing togethro some code
21:50 aggrav8d why not write some software to simulate it and then run your code in the simulation?
21:50 rue_mohr obviously I'd make sure my code was half sane before handing it over
21:50 aggrav8d half sane is the problem.
21:50 rue_mohr these links aren't to your motor controller tho?
21:51 rue_mohr :) you got me interested in your problem
21:52 rue_mohr have a link to your motor controller?
21:52 aggrav8d canakit l298 i believe.
21:52 rue_mohr oh its just an l298?
21:52 rue_mohr you generating your own pwm then?
21:52 aggrav8d no, seriously. why are you taking this on when you have so many other projects?
21:52 aggrav8d pwm from the arduino.
21:53 rue_mohr because it caught my interest
21:53 rue_mohr ? and what were you using for a controller before?
21:53 aggrav8d focus, rue! I have four projects on the go and that's more than I can hope to finish in a reasonable amount of time.
21:53 rue_mohr how many channels of pwm do you have on the arduino?
21:53 aggrav8d the LAC boards from firgelli
21:53 rue_mohr I have a lifetime, longer if I can work out immortality
21:53 aggrav8d I have a mega, 13 channels. i only need 6.
21:54 e_mohr checks to make sure the boiler isn't about to blo
21:54 aggrav8d you could be dead tomorrow, with nothing but a legacy of half finished junk. (it's junk until it's finished)
21:54 rue_mohr how fast is the avr running?
21:54 aggrav8d dunno
21:54 rue_mohr hmm
21:55 rue_mohr on a 16Mhz mega32 I run 4 PI servo loops
21:55 rue_mohr I'v recently made new progress on software pwm that could get me higher freq using software
21:57 rue_mohr with the LAC, which method are you going to send the signals to it
21:57 aggrav8d I'm sorry, I have to get back to work on my machine now. I've nearly integrated the h bridge test code with the stewart platform controller, but the machine is making some incorrect assumptions and it's making things difficult.
21:57 aggrav8d i used the PWM control to tell it where I wanted the boards to go.
21:57 aggrav8d er, s/boards/actuators
21:58 rue_mohr ah, so your scrapping the LAC baords
21:58 rue_mohr aggrav8d, if you want, I have mega32 code that operates 4 servo loops (positioning with voltage input)
21:58 rue_mohr it takes serial commands
21:58 rue_mohr 10 bit positioning
21:59 rue_mohr dir/pwm outputs
22:00 rue_mohr I also have an axis interpolation function for synchronizing up to 65000 axies
22:19 Tom_itx ok, probe 2 nearing completion
22:27 rue_mohr hmm
22:28 rue_mohr the boiler is more efficeint when the water temp is low
22:28 rue_mohr the rad is more efficient when the temp is high
22:28 Tom_itx pics to come
22:28 e_mohr shud
22:28 rue_mohr did you see todays avr project?
22:30 Tom_itx no
22:36 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/emc/small_probe1.jpg
22:36 Tom_itx http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/emc/small_probe2.jpg
22:40 rue_mohr is that a 1" grid?
22:40 Tom_itx 2
22:40 rue_mohr k
22:40 rue_mohr looks ok
22:40 Tom_itx small one is 1.3" diameter
22:40 Tom_itx big is 2
22:41 Tom_itx tight fit though
22:59 rue_mohr aggrav8d has made me want to work on my dancing robot again
22:59 rue_mohr put all my wonderous kinematics code back into play
22:59 Tom_itx :)
22:59 rue_mohr my point manipulation libraries
23:00 Tom_itx may as well see if they work
23:00 rue_mohr I havn't had the opportunity to bring it all into one program before
23:00 rue_mohr most of it has been tested togethor
23:04 Tom_itx ran the plastic lid program without testing it on the cnc
23:04 Tom_itx i had to add 1 cut to it
23:04 Tom_itx but the rest were where they should be
23:11 rue_mohr as long as it wasn't a centring problem you still save face
23:12 rue_mohr well this run of the boiler is doing good
23:12 rue_mohr I re-insulated it, and have fed it a wack of fuel
23:13 rue_mohr its right up to temp
23:21 Tom_itx ok bedtime here
23:25 rue_mohr boiler is gaining 12.5c house is losing 12c