#linuxcnc Logs
Jul 19 2024
#linuxcnc Calendar
09:15 AM Tom_L: you broke it
09:29 AM GeneralNuisance: nuh uh
09:29 AM Tom_L: i think it want's a pay raise, it's been on strike
09:29 AM Tom_L: backup-log
09:29 AM backup-log: Tom_L: Today's Log https://www.tjfhome.net/irclog/%23linuxcnc/2024-07-19.html
09:29 AM Tom_L: https://www.tjfhome.net/irclog/%23linuxcnc/2024-07-18.html
09:29 AM GeneralNuisance: the logs were empty-ish http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~tom-itx/irc/logs/%23linuxcnc/ past few days
09:29 AM Tom_L: like i said, it's on strike!
09:29 AM Tom_L: i have connection problems sometimes with it
09:30 AM Centurion_Dan1 is now known as Centurion_Dan
09:31 AM GeneralNuisance: onelaboratories.us/rtai_lcnc/ 5.4.258 matching RTAI kernel and LCNC debs have been deprecated
09:31 AM Tom_L: yes
09:31 AM Tom_L: try the same link with /abc
09:31 AM Tom_L: newer rtai
09:32 AM GeneralNuisance: oh <-- CaptHindsight
09:32 AM Tom_L: gotcha
09:32 AM Tom_L: i thought you were complaining
09:32 AM bjorkintosh: intent's in the screen name :-D
09:32 AM GeneralNuisance: and you're ugly!
09:32 AM bjorkintosh: but, as usual hindsight is always a general nuisance.
09:33 AM GeneralNuisance: waiting for Andy's input on RTAI
09:33 AM Tom_L: yeah i'm waiting for 2.9.3 for RTAI then i'll test it all out
09:34 AM Tom_L: with the 5.4.297 kernel
09:34 AM Tom_L: 279
09:34 AM GeneralNuisance: there was some discussion about 2.9.3 fixes that might cause a 2.9.4
09:34 AM Tom_L: oh?
09:34 AM Tom_L: gcode thing?
09:35 AM GeneralNuisance: yeah, https://onelaboratories.us/abc/ was built after Andy froze 2.9.3
09:35 AM Tom_L: so you'd have to rebuild that too?
09:36 AM GeneralNuisance: maybe, but it's no big deal
09:36 AM Tom_L: you got a script for that by now?
09:36 AM Tom_L: or does that take alot of manual twiddling
09:38 AM GeneralNuisance: memleak usually builds for Gentoo, he recently wrote a bunch of new scripts, but I think he just writes some bash for Debian
09:39 AM GeneralNuisance: Andy said his RTAI debs worked for him, but everyone else had issues since they didn't match versions
09:40 AM GeneralNuisance: we tested his debs and had the same issues with mismatch as JT and others
09:40 AM GeneralNuisance: so waiting for Andy
09:41 AM GeneralNuisance: I haven't heard about any problem with the 5.4.279 RTAI debs
09:41 AM Tom_L: it worked for me as well
09:41 AM Tom_L: all 3 so far
09:49 AM GeneralNuisance: testing preemp_rt and RTAI on the same hardware recently
09:49 AM Tom_L: dual boot?
09:49 AM GeneralNuisance: will run for a day <10uS max jitter no matter what I throw at it..
09:50 AM GeneralNuisance: then first launch of LCNC with Axis and instant real time delay error with base thread set at anything under 40uS
09:51 AM Tom_L: hmm
09:52 AM JT-Cave: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/spam/53280-best-place
09:52 AM GeneralNuisance: latency-histogram base thread set at 20uS and no issues
09:59 AM pcw--home: The latency test really only tests dispatch latency (it does no I/O, no large memory accesses etc)
10:01 AM GeneralNuisance: yeah, was thinking an actual hardware test but it's close enough, you just test on your actual hardware and bump the base thread up until it works
10:02 AM GeneralNuisance: FF + youtube still bangs it around the most
10:31 AM Centurion_Dan1 is now known as Centurion_Dan
10:37 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:38 AM lcnc-relay: <Travis Farmer> huh, good to see my logger is still running, i forgot about it, lol
11:05 AM JT-Shop: hmm plasma pc won't start up so it must be nap time
11:10 AM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> Travis Farmer channel or tree?
11:11 AM lcnc-relay: <Travis Farmer> channel logger
11:11 AM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> well you do live in the forest
11:12 AM lcnc-relay: <Travis Farmer> sorta, but still in-town 😉
11:15 AM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> https://softsolder.com/2021/04/08/kicad-to-hal-overview/ what is wrong with this project? Why is it pretty much ignored?
11:16 AM bjorkintosh: time and resources?
11:27 AM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> most LCNC investigators shy away from LCNC due to the learning required, especially HAL, this make HAL more comfortable for the ones that can read and draw schematics
11:46 AM JT-Shop: where did you get this information?
11:56 AM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> personal interviews
11:57 AM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> and the kicad to hal from the Google
11:58 AM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> most people don't want to admit that they have a hard time trying to learn how to configure LCNC, so they talk around it
11:59 AM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> and others just want to machine and don't wish to assemble anything
11:59 AM Tom_L: i'd say it's probably 80% easier now than when i started my first install
11:59 AM bjorkintosh: usability is non-trivial.
12:00 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> an analogy might be, they want to bowl, they don't want to construct a bowling lane and make bowling balls
12:00 PM lcnc-relay: <roguish> captainhindsight_.: I've been messing with linuxcnc for nearly 20 years now. back then, there were no helpers like pncconf and stepconf. one actually needed to RTFM, and learn....
12:00 PM Tom_L: nope bare bones...
12:01 PM Tom_L: i can't remember when i actually started using it but i've followed it back when it was still in govt hands
12:01 PM lcnc-relay: <roguish> and I think the new users are different. these days is seem like most people want someone to hold their hands and walk them through everything......
12:02 PM Tom_L: i think that's a generation thing on life
12:02 PM lcnc-relay: <roguish> I remember getting yelled at for asking a dumb question on the IRC line......
12:02 PM lcnc-relay: <roguish> Tom_L: you're right
12:02 PM Tom_L: the only dumb question is one that doesn't get asked
12:02 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> I can tell some people that I wired, configured and ran LCNC in minutes on something new, for example: https://imgur.com/LxSPzg7
12:03 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> but they will feel compelled to spend months developing something else
12:04 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> something from scratch even
12:04 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> and they can't explain why
12:04 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> only what they will make will be better (even though LCNC does nothing wrong)
12:06 PM roycroft: they advice i've always given cnc newbs is to buy a turn-key system first, perhaps a low end laser or squirter running grbl, to get familiar with cnc concepts, and then decide whether to buy a higher-end turnkey or mostly turnkey system for their intended use, or design and build one from scratch
12:06 PM JT-Cave: judging from the number topics on the forum I'd say most try emc
12:06 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> if they ever tell you why, please let me know
12:06 PM roycroft: but doing a design/build from the start doesn't make much sense to me for a cnc newb
12:06 PM JT-Cave: my first cnc was from scratch
12:07 PM roycroft: that was back in the olden days, before we had cheap, entry level turnkey setups
12:07 PM bjorkintosh: JT-Cave: you probably have better technical chops than the average chip churner.
12:07 PM JT-Cave: well I never could get the BDI to install...
12:07 PM roycroft: it's worth spending $300 on a turnkey system to get your toes wet
12:07 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> one person complained the LCNC wiki looked too old fashioned
12:07 PM Tom_L: i got a sherline cnc probably over 40 yrs ago by now then built what i have within the last couple years
12:07 PM JT-Cave: does anyone remember what the BDI was?
12:07 PM lcnc-relay: <roguish> bjorkintosh: he's definitely smarter than the average bear
12:07 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> yet their machines use cnc glue gun printed parts
12:07 PM roycroft: and if you're going to build a big machine it will probably save you way more than $300 in mistakes avoided
12:08 PM * roycroft sticks by his advice
12:09 PM JT-Cave: roguish should remember the BDI...
12:09 PM bjorkintosh: when (if?) I ever have time, I'd like to work on the usability.
12:09 PM bjorkintosh: but. time.
12:09 PM bjorkintosh: BDI? Big Dumb Interface?
12:09 PM JT-Cave: in any case for those of you that don't remember it's the acronym for Brain Dead Install and that's how the developers thought
12:10 PM bjorkintosh: hah. i was close.
12:10 PM roycroft: move your office to a rocket ship traveling through space at a very high velocity
12:10 PM JT-Cave: not even close
12:10 PM roycroft: time will pass more slowly, so you can get more done
12:10 PM JT-Cave: LOL
12:10 PM * JT-Cave goes to see if the wife is up from her nap yet
12:10 PM Unterhaus_ is now known as Unterhausen
12:10 PM JT-Cave: burning daylight
12:10 PM Tom_L: but will you age slower too?
12:11 PM Unterhausen: BDI, brain dead install
12:11 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> roycroft: that is only relative to the observer
12:11 PM Unterhausen: what's his name issued it before he decided he hated everyone and left in a huff
12:13 PM JT-Shop: my guess is Paul
12:13 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> when you hate everyone in the room it's time to change rooms
12:13 PM Unterhausen: yeah, Paul
12:13 PM roycroft: so tfg should be changing rooms now?
12:14 PM JT-Shop: he was the same one that filed a complaint with debian a few years ago
12:14 PM Unterhausen: funny he still hates us
12:14 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> it's nothing personal
12:14 PM roycroft: it takes a lot of energy to hate someone, and in my experience it's really not worth the energy
12:14 PM Unterhausen: he did a lot of work to convert to 64 bit, right about the time John Kasunich was doing all the Hal development
12:15 PM Tom_L: he must be an unhappy person
12:15 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> not much energy for YOU, for some it comes naturally
12:15 PM Unterhausen: maybe that caused hard feelings?
12:15 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> similar with machine kit
12:16 PM roycroft: i don't think it's natural at all
12:16 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> left in a huff, huffed for a while, abandoned project
12:16 PM Unterhausen: exactly the same, but I guess Michael wasn't around for the previous dustup
12:17 PM Unterhausen: The only thing is that machinekit worked
12:17 PM JT-Shop: of course before HAL you had to compile for any change... so HAL is wonderful
12:18 PM Unterhausen: yeah, HAL is going to win over 64bit support every time
12:18 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> why that kicad for hal looks so nice
12:19 PM Unterhausen: most of us weren't exactly ready for 64 bit at that time anyway
12:21 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/50268-trajectory-planner-using-ruckig-lib
01:01 PM he1 is now known as hel
01:12 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> is Tormach a BDI? It even comes pre-installed.
01:13 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> I'll offer a CNC with LCNC pre-installed and then the complaint will be the price
01:14 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> "you charged $100 for assembly, test and support" greedy bastard!
01:18 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-controller-box offers no LCNC anything
01:20 PM Unterhaus_ is now known as Unterhausen
01:21 PM Unterhausen: the problem with lcnc as a product is even the newbiest newb wants to use some weird hardware they got cheap
01:21 PM Unterhausen: I think that may be the main thing that attracts users
01:23 PM Tom_L: they _do_ offer an aluminum box for the G540 if that counts
01:36 PM roycroft: there is smoke blowing in again today
01:36 PM bjorkintosh: so, that's why standards exist.
01:37 PM roycroft: eugene has the same aqi as we do, though
01:42 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> Unterhausen: similar with makerspaces, they already have donated hardware......that is crap
01:44 PM Unterhausen: Those are some of the people that show up wanting to use lcnc because they have a pile of hardware that nobody else wanted
02:00 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> roycroft: don't those off shore windmills get turned around as big fans to blow smoke away?
02:03 PM * roycroft is now 175km inland, with a mountain range between him and the coast
02:03 PM roycroft: the smoke rarely gets to the coast, and the smoke we're getting certainly would not get to the coast
02:03 PM bjorkintosh: preparing for a flood, roycroft?
02:04 PM roycroft: i'm not in the flood zone
02:04 PM roycroft: i made sure my new house was neither in a flood zone or a high risk fire zone
02:04 PM bjorkintosh: 'xactly. by removing yourself from the flood zone, you are properly prepared.
02:05 PM bjorkintosh: for the day the last bits of ice melt.
02:05 PM roycroft: 'cuz, 1. i don't want to have my house flooded or burned down, and 2. i don't want my homeowner's insurance to cost 2x as much as my mortgage payment
02:05 PM Tom_L: those leeches will find a way
02:05 PM * roycroft thinks those are two good reasons to not live in those zones
02:13 PM bjorkintosh: speaking of those leeches: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PaTPh0T8_VQ
02:31 PM lcnc-relay: <JT> Yo
02:37 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> sounds like somebody didn't rake there forest properly this year, again!
02:37 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> there/their
02:54 PM Unterhausen: their they're there their're there're
02:58 PM lcnc-relay: <JT> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/mOWPVxAhDLfPUfHozKwyZxcH/20240719_145200_2642995491885496632.jpg
02:59 PM xxcoder: just got disc of sabu from sls company
02:59 PM xxcoder: dang its pretty good, though the thin circle parts is missing, im not surpised, that dont scale well
03:01 PM lcnc-relay: <JT> The courthouse Lincoln practiced law in
03:03 PM lcnc-relay: <JT> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/ysZEigbXkBdrPzmklxJtgwfg/20240719_145707_2579982494099224605.jpg
03:05 PM lcnc-relay: <JT> Mississippi River
03:07 PM roycroft: a narrow part of the river, it appears
03:08 PM lcnc-relay: <JT> At Scott City
03:47 PM lcnc-relay: <roguish> hey, someone here the other day was talking about riding a trike, instead of a bike.... check this out.....
03:47 PM lcnc-relay: <roguish> https://electrek.co/2024/07/19/lectric-e-bike-deals-aerogarden-bounty-basic-best-buy-ev-sale-more/
03:49 PM lcnc-relay: <Travis Farmer> roguish: yeah, take that down a technical downhill trail 😉
03:51 PM lcnc-relay: <roguish> oh joy, just broke 100 here
03:52 PM lcnc-relay: <Travis Farmer> 85F here, on my thermo
04:10 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> MK had some good development, alot of stuff LCNC could have benefitted from
05:24 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> and HE knew everything, just ask him
05:50 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> who is HE
05:54 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> the HE you mentioned above, who shall remain nameless
05:55 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I was referring to MK, replied to the wrong line
05:55 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Hopefully you aren't suggesting that MK was one person cuz I can assure you that was not the case
05:56 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> you missed the drama from 10 years ago
05:57 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I was around
05:58 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> probably didn't pay too much attention so I don't know anything about "paul" or whoever we're talking about
05:58 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> that was a different older drama
05:58 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Was just talking about machinekit in general
06:01 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> MKSOCFPGA is a lost oppertunity being burried under MAchinekit....that was a winner
06:01 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> did you see the new one? let me find the link
06:02 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> aparrently not, don't know of anything "new"
06:04 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> https://github.com/multigcs/riocore
06:05 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Oh yeah I'm familiar with that....that's not the same deal
06:05 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/18-computer/49142-linuxcnc-rio-realtimeio-for-linuxcnc-based-on-fpga-ice40-ecp5
06:06 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> that's running a cheap FPGA board with hm2 or hm2 like firmware, still requires a host PC
06:08 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> MK _SOC_ FPGA used an SOCFPGA to run LinuxCNC on the CPU cores and the contoller was a spoofed 5125 running on the FPGA fabric....it was 1 chip/board
06:08 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> The DE10 Nano that the kids like to play with and drove the price up on.....that was the star of the show
06:08 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> since LCNC runs on many different CPU's
06:09 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> how does hardware work?
06:09 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Whatta ya mean?
06:09 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> field IO?
06:09 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> a daughtercard of some sort
06:12 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/aqFILUveztpcqYBBrsdINGxD/DE10nano_interface.jpg
06:12 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I did that, other people made smaller things
06:12 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> that reminds me, what is the point of the OSH organization?
06:13 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Who knows....I was just being generous and stuck that on there
06:13 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> you pay to join and then what?
06:13 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> don't think there's an actual reality behing "open source hardware"
06:13 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I didn't pay anyone anything
06:14 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> didn't join anything either
06:14 PM xxcoder: I remember that there was open hardware group but it was a while ago
06:15 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> https://www.oshwa.org/
06:15 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I just put hardware files on github stuck a logo footprint on and said "here, thanks for the code....feel free to use this"
06:15 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> Certified Open Source Hardware Projects https://certification.oshwa.org/list.html
06:16 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I didn't use that association's logo.....and it's not certified anything
06:16 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> the logo I used is commonly used for donated projects
06:16 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> it doesn't have any weight like GPL or anything
06:16 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> I was thinin about AOSHW, Almost OSHW that fits more projects
06:18 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> as much as people like to monkey with cheap hardware these days on LCNC, I'm surprised no one has adopted MK SOC FPGA into the fold
06:18 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> and I'm happy to certify for only $2,995
06:18 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Certify what?
06:18 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Why should you certify anything that is "open source"
06:18 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> all the Almost open stuff
06:18 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> that defeats the purpose
06:19 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> well OSHW did
06:19 PM xxcoder: only one thing comes to my mind, confirmation that hw is good design
06:19 PM xxcoder: otherwise dunnlo
06:19 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> I think they even gave out stickers or something
06:19 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> it's free and without warrenty....use at your own discretion
06:19 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> no different from software
06:20 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> lol pay $3k to give people something.....doesn't make any sense to me
06:20 PM xxcoder: certainly not an requirement
06:21 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> yeah but then you are CERTIFIED, you get stickers and everything that says so
06:21 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> cool....everybody likes stickers
06:22 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> $3k stickers
06:22 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> the stickers are free
06:23 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> You must have something in mind cuz I don't get it
06:23 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> and you got the project or product listed on the website
06:24 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> and they get together for a summit every year
06:24 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Sometimes I make a thing and say "ooh this is neat", then I say "nobody'd buy this thing", then I stick it on Github with a logo on it. Beyond that I don't understand
06:25 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> I'm still not sure what OSHWA did for members
06:25 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> me neither....OSHW logo has nothing to do with OSHWA
06:26 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> you used their logo and nobody threw you out of a window
06:26 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> THAT logo belongs to nobody
06:27 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> just looks similar
06:27 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I think you're confusing that very common logo with some association
06:27 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> https://openbuildspartstore.com/
06:28 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> that parts store has no afilliation, look at their logo....it would be copyright enfringement
06:28 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> https://www.oshwa.org/open-source-hardware-logo/
06:28 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> .....This logo may be used if your hardware complies with the Open Source Hardware Definition
06:28 PM xxcoder: 560 dollars for really tiny mill
06:28 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> lol, it's not what you think
06:29 PM xxcoder: 1114 usd once I add spindle and other options lol
06:29 PM xxcoder: i rather get millenium mill project
06:30 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> i see the difference now
06:30 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> FAQ: Do you own the logo? Did you create it?
06:30 PM lcnc-relay: No. No. (I did make the SVG files.)
06:30 PM lcnc-relay: Is this some weird trademark trolling scheme run by an evil corporation?
06:30 PM lcnc-relay: No. I will be excited to turn over responsibility for this site to the Open Source Hardware Foundation, once it exists. (Added: It does!)
06:31 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Maybe it's turned into something else over the years....who knows. I made that board like 5 years ago
06:32 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> MK's dead anyway so it was a deadend
06:32 PM lcnc-relay: <roguish> oh joy, down to just 101
06:32 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> pretty sure open builds invented extrusions
06:32 PM xxcoder: 101c eh
06:33 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> lol 8020 was out way before openbuilds
06:33 PM xxcoder: openbuilds made their own version
06:33 PM xxcoder: its not same design, but similiar
06:34 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> they did make custom designed extrusions tho. I haven't found a use for C-Beam but I always think of it
06:34 PM xxcoder: project millenium mill uses few C beams
06:34 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> I saw a version with rack gear cut into one side
06:34 PM xxcoder: as base and column
06:34 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I tried to work Cbeam into a couple things.....just didn't work out
06:37 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I wish I knew what half the crap on a Chinese food menu was.....I just order the same stuff all the time lol
06:37 PM xxcoder: "My son is the sole IT guy at a manufacturing facility. His phone rang at 5:30 AM… “Every computer in the plant is blue-screened.”"
06:37 PM xxcoder: man
06:37 PM xxcoder: that cloudstrike thing is a huge mess
06:37 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> You'd think ppl would stop stroking MS off by now
06:38 PM xxcoder: its not exactly ms issue
06:38 PM xxcoder: cloudstriker
06:38 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Yeah but it only affected MS because they embed CS software into their Kernel
06:38 PM xxcoder: fun isnt it
06:39 PM xxcoder: (rude language warning) https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/1e730pz/f_microsoft/
06:39 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> CS ran an update that whiped out Windows OS's from the kernel level
06:39 PM lcnc-relay: <roguish> lol, been seeing that all day..........
06:40 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> And since MS likes to shove updates right up your nose you are screwed
06:40 PM lcnc-relay: <roguish> just reboot 15 times
06:41 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I used to maintain high speed production inkjet printers from Switzerland. It's a security issue to store customer data on a machines hard disk so they streamed the data in from a server farm......
06:42 PM xxcoder: https://www.theverge.com/2024/7/19/24201717/windows-bsod-crowdstrike-outage-issue
06:42 PM bjorkintosh: so why were they blaming azure?
06:42 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> The server farm ran Ubuntu server and was rock solid, there was this Windows PC that was like an interface between the Linux server and the data servers.....man that thing would randomly update itself and F every printer
06:44 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> they arent
06:44 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> Space Force came out during early Covid, might try watching it now
06:44 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Azure is messed up cuz Cloudstrike sent a bad update and killed all the Windows kernels
06:44 PM bjorkintosh: captainhindsight: it was funny.
06:45 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> sounds like a conspiracy
06:45 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Space Force caused Covid?
06:46 PM bjorkintosh: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-Azure-and-Microsoft-365-services-affected-by-Central-US-Azure-outage-resulting-from-bad-configuration-change.865216.0.html
06:47 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> They got hospitals, banks and Arbys down
06:47 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Arby's is definately the real issue
06:49 PM Tom_L: for sure
06:49 PM Tom_L: our state site was down earlier
06:50 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> bjorkintosh: so it's like the Office only satirizing the Space Force?
06:50 PM Tom_L: they hacked our city few weeks ago and shut everything down
06:50 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> who's they
06:50 PM bjorkintosh: <captainhindsight_.> Perfect analogy!
06:50 PM bjorkintosh: yes.
06:50 PM Tom_L: some international hacker group
06:51 PM Tom_L: a russian ransomware group claimed it
06:52 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> lol of course
06:52 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> it's always the Russians right
06:52 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> or the Chinese
06:52 PM Tom_L: https://thehackernews.com/2024/07/two-russian-nationals-plead-guilty-in.html
06:52 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> THey'll blame the Cloudstrike thing on Russia or China too I suppose
06:53 PM Tom_L: why not?
06:53 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> or the Libyans in the 80's
06:53 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Cuz when you don't have an answer you just blame the usual suspects
06:53 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> i have to check the current list of terrorist states
06:53 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> is the US on there?
06:54 PM bjorkintosh: hahahaha
06:55 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Sponsors_of_Terrorism_(U.S._list) right in the title 🙂
06:55 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I was expecting bigger dots
06:57 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> What's that Cuba...looks like Cuba's a bunch of terrorists too eh
06:57 PM xxcoder: I bet CS company would LOVE it to be hacking thing rather than botched update
06:57 PM xxcoder: it will cost them billions of dollars and its still increasing
06:57 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> how do you hack a virus like windows
06:57 PM bjorkintosh: you don't. you simply wait for an update.
06:57 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> that's like saying my flu got sick
06:58 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> lol a Windows update is like a booster shot
06:58 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> "this one'll get ya"
07:04 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/ybbkdyRUDySTxpelJeArxjkg/almostopenhw.jpg
07:04 PM xxcoder: lol
07:07 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> No idea
07:07 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> You paid $3k for that?
07:07 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> no, I'm going to charge $3k for that
07:08 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> big seller
07:08 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> and we can even meet twice a year and have a fund raiser
07:08 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> you need more color
07:08 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> like a rainbow
07:08 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> and this will certify you
07:09 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I'm good
07:09 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> not like those other almost open, open source projects
07:10 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> ssuch as?
07:10 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> risc-v
07:10 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> why is risc-v not open?
07:11 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> they don't want open firmware and they don't any open IO blocks
07:11 PM bjorkintosh: risc-v is the definition of open.
07:11 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> almost open open
07:12 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> the ISA dictates firmware?
07:13 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> all developed to save $1 on ARM licenses for each chip
07:13 PM bjorkintosh: https://riscv.org/about/ RISC-V is an open standard Instruction Set Architecture (ISA) enabling a new era of processor innovation through open collaboration
07:13 PM bjorkintosh: is that not adequately open?
07:13 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> almost open open
07:14 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> COnsidering that ARM is in everything, $1 is boku
07:14 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> too boku
07:15 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Plus ARM is a whore.....who owns it now?
07:17 PM bjorkintosh: arm son?
07:18 PM bjorkintosh: or somesuch?
07:18 PM bjorkintosh: or did Son not manage to get his grubby hands on it?
07:18 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Last I know it was like Softbank and Nvidia wanted it but couldn't have it
07:19 PM bjorkintosh: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-13/masayoshi-son-adds-4-billion-to-his-wealth-on-arm-s-192-rally
07:19 PM bjorkintosh: son == softbank
07:20 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Oh looks like ARM went public after Nvidia couldn't get it?
07:20 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> THATS how Nancy P made all that cash
07:21 PM Tom_L: https://news.slashdot.org/story/24/07/18/2050235/nvidia-will-fully-transition-to-open-source-gpu-kernel-modules-with-r560-drivers
07:22 PM xxcoder: yeah saw that. hope it means can get good drivers soon
07:22 PM xxcoder: sadky my gpu is too old for that
07:22 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> they need the Linux guys to fix their new drivers
07:23 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> only like 10 years behind AMD on that one
07:24 PM xxcoder: what would be good gpu anyway
07:24 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Oh actually it doesn't look like their opening the drivers just the kernel modules?
07:24 PM xxcoder: gtx1060 is oretty old, and I dont really want to use nvinda drivers (using open source one right now)
07:24 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> got 2 4070s for AI stuff, otherwise I like AMD
07:25 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> got a 1080 and a 1080TI just sitting here
07:25 PM xxcoder: im not a gamer, not for long time, but I want fairly good accel with minium 2 dpi
07:26 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> dont know what that means
07:26 PM xxcoder: display port
07:26 PM xxcoder: its better than hdmi
07:27 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I got 4 monitors on the same PC. Some HDMI some DP.....seem the same to me
07:27 PM bjorkintosh: you must have a good GPU
07:27 PM Tom_L: kinda like those audio phools
07:27 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I have alot of good GPUs lol
07:28 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I retire good GPUs
07:28 PM xxcoder: I usually use gpu for long time
07:29 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> well the 4 monitor rig isn't for gaming so it has a 5700xt I bought when I built it like 5 years ago
07:29 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:443/~webpage/cnc/cad-station.jpg
07:29 PM xxcoder: lol tonm
07:29 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> you'll break your neck with that
07:29 PM xxcoder: just add free rotationg interface to your neck
07:30 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I had 4 on the desk for a while and realized it sucked, I now have 1 stacked
07:30 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> that's just for watching Youtube while I work on the other 3 anyway
07:31 PM xxcoder: I use 2 montiors, one is basically permently irc unless I need it for reference screen
07:31 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I can't use less than 2 on a PC
07:31 PM Tom_L: i got 5 pcs in front of me but none have dual monitors. i never cared for that much
07:32 PM Tom_L: i'll have sheets open on one and work on the other
07:32 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> never tried superwide but normal monitors are cheap so why bother
07:32 PM Tom_L: once in a while it might be handy but i never got used to it
07:32 PM Tom_L: 4k is too much for my old eyes
07:32 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Yeah, datasheet or a drawing open on one then whatever CAD on another
07:32 PM bjorkintosh: I have 3 monitors 2 connected to one computer, and a 3rd connected to my laptop. I use x2x to go from one to the other.
07:32 PM bjorkintosh: it is superb.
07:33 PM bjorkintosh: one keyboard/mouse/footswitch
07:33 PM bjorkintosh: allows me to keep browsers open on one machine without bringing whatever I"m working on to a crawl.
07:33 PM Tom_L: the mx i had would let you switch between PCs but i never got used to that either
07:34 PM Tom_L: that and the usb thing always gave me fits
07:34 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Any modern PC shouldn't have an issue with 4 monitors and a browser
07:34 PM bjorkintosh: smooth sailing here. I had trouble only when things were connected via wifi. once I plugged everything in through ethernet, it became perfect.
07:35 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> if the browser brings a PC to a crawl you got an issue
07:35 PM bjorkintosh: yes. Javascript. :-|
07:35 PM Tom_L: i did like the feel of it but it's in a box now
07:35 PM Tom_L: my go to is an old omnikey :)
07:35 PM Tom_L: clickety click
07:36 PM Tom_L: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275959357499
07:37 PM Tom_L: worn off a couple sets of home keys and replaced em
07:37 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> I have 4 monitors - the bottom 2 are running the host linux - the top 2 are pci pass through video running a windows 11 vm.
07:38 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> I switch between them tapping the 2 control keys.
07:38 PM bjorkintosh: I favor the battleship myself: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Battleship
07:38 PM bjorkintosh: function keys everywhere...
07:39 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:443/~webpage/rue/Omnikey_key/alps3.jpg
07:39 PM Tom_L: quite serviceable
07:40 PM xxcoder: when I search for "Radeon RX 6600" theres tonbs tons different ones what
07:40 PM xxcoder: like powercolor, asus, etc
07:41 PM Tom_L: omnikey is quite comparable to the ibm
07:42 PM Tom_L: didn't they use cherry keys?
07:42 PM Tom_L: these are alps
07:44 PM bjorkintosh: Tom_L: I don't know for sure. but it makes a hell of a clacking sound.
07:44 PM bjorkintosh: drives anyone on the phone crazy.
07:44 PM bjorkintosh: telemarketers beg to be disconnected!
07:44 PM bjorkintosh: hahahahah
07:44 PM Tom_L: yup, all the 'good' ones did
07:45 PM bjorkintosh: I find it inferior to the clacking and ringing of a type writer.
07:45 PM Tom_L: you knew when you pressed a key for sure
08:04 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> we had one cloud service at work down because of the crowdstrike
08:04 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> (our time and attendence...)
08:22 PM lcnc-relay: <knoxmachining> I loved my Focus 3001. Using one now.
08:24 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I did that for a while with virtmanager. Then I just decided to build an isolated Windows PC and remote into itt
08:24 PM xxcoder: cloudstrike sure striked down
08:26 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> My laptop is Linux - I setup a VM that uses the dedicated video card for windows.. I did it for cad but now I just use it for work..
08:28 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Yeah I did it on my Linux desktop, had 2 video cards and I passed 1 + half the CPU into the VM. Got tired of sacrificing half my system for it tho
08:29 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Now I keep a Windows PC in the closet with a 10gb NIC and I just use NoMachine to get into it. I keep that box firewalled in my router so MS can't pull any shenanigens
08:31 PM bjorkintosh: I find running VMs to be ridiculously slow.
08:31 PM bjorkintosh: nothing I've done has made it better, and this machine has 64Gb of ram.
08:31 PM bjorkintosh: maybe that's not enough.
08:32 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> It's different with QEMU, VMs run on sacrificed hardware
08:34 PM bjorkintosh: that's what I last used.
08:34 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I was running a 3900x with 2 GPUS and 64GB RAM. To run the VM you allocate the resources, the host PC cannot use them. I gave it 6 CPUs, 32gb RAM and 1 GPU which was literally half the system. There's no difference if it was running on a separate machine with those specs
08:34 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Then you didn't do something right
08:34 PM bjorkintosh: the damned thing was so damned slow that I formatted everything completely to get rid of it.
08:35 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> that or your system is too slow for it
08:35 PM bjorkintosh: hmm
08:35 PM bjorkintosh: I'll try again at a future date.
08:35 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> It runs what you give it, it's no different than if that was it's own PC
08:35 PM bjorkintosh: I needed ubuntu 16 to run genera OS, but it was discouraging.
08:35 PM bjorkintosh: yeah. I get the concept.
08:36 PM bjorkintosh: I gave it 32 gigs. plenty of ssd space. and whatever the graphics card would let it have without glitching.
08:36 PM bjorkintosh: ubuntu in ubuntu wasn't happy with ubuntu
08:36 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I use Virtualbox for just normal VMs now, I dont need the high performance VM
08:37 PM bjorkintosh: vbox was awful.
08:37 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> No idea, I was doing AI upscaling on the QEMU WIndows VM, that thing was a space heater
08:38 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Vbox is fine for general purpose VMs, not sure what you are expecting
08:38 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I run LinuxCNC in a Debian VM so I can work on GUIs and stuff
08:38 PM bjorkintosh: normal performance characteristics.
08:38 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> mine run fine, even on a laptop....no idea what your issue is
08:39 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I run every version of Windows and Dos in Vbox VMs on a laptop to do PLC recovery.....trust me, it's fine or you need a better system
08:39 PM bjorkintosh: no idea either. perhaps now that the crowd is striking really hard, I should take a closer look at running windows in QEMU and profiling it for performance.
08:40 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I would never run QEMU unless I absolutely needed Windows to run spectacular. You are literally breaking your system in half to do it
08:41 PM bjorkintosh: might just be a PEBCAK issue.
08:41 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> No idea, I did check the mapping of my CPU cores and make sure I got them allocated by their physical blocks
08:42 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> like if you give random CPUs to QEMU you are going to have cache issues
08:42 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> you have to group them
08:43 PM bjorkintosh: hmm okay.
08:43 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> At this point if I needed to use QEMU for performance, I would just buid a PC for it. Vbox VMs are fine for what I do normally, but then again I hate Windows so I don't use them heavy
08:45 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> its always some dumb ass proprietary OEM piece of software that I can't run in Wine, then I fire up the VM
08:45 PM bjorkintosh: well, I have a pretty flexible win11 work computer I can use for whatever I want, so I'll probably just do that. it's upgradeable to 192Gb ram!
08:45 PM bjorkintosh: I haven't turned it on in over a month though. I hope it's not striken.
08:51 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> in my experience - the qemu vm's run faster than on physical hardware.
08:53 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Not quite sure how that could be possible. I'd say they technically are running on physical hardware so that's about what it seems
08:57 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> I haven't used virtbox for a very long time.
09:01 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ60jBCT94w
09:02 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> QEMU is a pain in the ass Vbox is easy. Vbox is fine for simple VMs
09:03 PM xxcoder: is vbox still locked to 256 mb vram?
09:03 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> probably
09:03 PM xxcoder: I had someone hand my ass to me because I dared to suggest increasomg vram
09:04 PM xxcoder: so some program could meet. one of cad, forgot which tho
09:04 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> 128mb
09:04 PM xxcoder: nah real limit is 256, you cant set it in gui
09:04 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Oh maybe, Like I said, for what I use Vbox for....I can get away with less
09:05 PM xxcoder: yeah light stuff is just fine
09:05 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Sometimes I forget to increase it anyway
09:07 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Like I might run Seimens software for S700's in an XP VM or a Debian VM just to run LinuxCNC for testing, it runs fine. Now If I was going to like actually do work I would just use QEMU but then again, I would probably just build a PC if I needed it like that
09:07 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I have tons of hardware laying around
09:07 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I have mini PCs in boxes for machines I haven't built. I can always whip up a PC
09:08 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I'd rather use a machine stuffed in the corner with no monitor attached with remote access than a VM any day
09:11 PM xxcoder: indeed, though uses more power
09:12 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Completely depends
09:12 PM xxcoder: you could run 10 low power vms in one computer vs 10 whole pcs
09:12 PM xxcoder: but high demend yeah better farm that off
09:12 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> lol no
09:13 PM xxcoder: decided to get GIGABYTE - Radeon RX 7600 GAMING OC 8GB GDDR6
09:14 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I can run a 4 core mini PC at alot less power than dedicating 4 cores of my desktop and a GPU to a VM. but that's assuming I don't need the desktop CPU for the VM
09:14 PM xxcoder: its pretty recent without being billion dollar gpu
09:14 PM roycroft: i run all our production servers under hypervisors
09:15 PM xxcoder: well youre more likely to be correct than me
09:15 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> It's fine for a reasonable desktop
09:15 PM xxcoder: my knowledge is bit obselete
09:15 PM roycroft: it just makes it a lot easier to manage them
09:15 PM roycroft: but they are all virtually headless, and that makes a difference
09:15 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> I've got a 6900xt, 2 4070s in current use in different PCs
09:15 PM roycroft: i've found that running a workstation vm does tend to be a bit sluggish
09:16 PM xxcoder: gtx 1060 was getting too problemic, I didnt want to install unstable nvinda drivers
09:16 PM roycroft: but headless servers run pretty much at raw hardware speed
09:16 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> No idea, I use containers on my NAS/Server to get things done
09:16 PM xxcoder: and too old for new upcoming open source ones
09:16 PM roycroft: the smoke is clearing out, finally
09:16 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> that link said kernel modules were going to be open, not drivers
09:16 PM roycroft: i can still detect it when i go outside, but it's not very strong
09:16 PM xxcoder: yeah, still an improvement
09:17 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> yeah but who cares
09:17 PM xxcoder: ill have amd tho
09:17 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> go AMD if it matters
09:17 PM roycroft: i did see something disturbing though - there were a bunch of forest service and state fire trucks at the ranger station just outside of town
09:17 PM xxcoder: oh boy
09:17 PM roycroft: i thought the fire that was blowing smoke my way was farther away than that
09:17 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> AI stuff you will want Nvidia otherwise AMD is fine
09:18 PM roycroft: maybe it is, and the ranger station was just the closest place to stage the firefighters
09:18 PM roycroft: yeah, there's no fire anywhere near here
09:20 PM roycroft: just smoke from afar
09:26 PM xxcoder: lol cloudstrike insanity. southwest airlines is not affected by it... because they use windows 3.11
09:26 PM xxcoder: erm 3.1
09:27 PM roycroft: odd, the wind is from the northwest, and the only fires remotely near here are due east and southeast
09:27 PM xxcoder: smoke is looking for you
09:27 PM xxcoder: joking
09:33 PM roycroft: oh well
09:33 PM roycroft: when the smoke comes, if i stay indoors it doesn't bother me
09:59 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/eqElxobcPhjBZfNIzzSEBuAe/SamplePartsPrint.mp4
09:59 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> does this look like a 70's video game?
10:00 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Looks like Kodi
10:00 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> wtf?
10:00 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> looks like Kodi
10:00 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> matter of fact I thought it was a Kodi UI at first
10:01 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> yeah similar
10:01 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> XBMC
10:01 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> is that running on an Xbox?
10:02 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> SLS4All user interface i guess
10:02 PM lcnc-relay: <captainhindsight_.> jfc!
10:03 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> $8000 firestick?
10:04 PM xxcoder: lol would be funny if you used sls as "vector screen"
10:06 PM roycroft: it's pizza time, finally
10:06 PM * roycroft got a late start on dinner tonight
10:06 PM lcnc-relay: <blazini36> Can I watch The Walking Dead on it?
10:06 PM xxcoder: oh good wheres my share
10:26 PM Centurion_Dan1 is now known as Centurion_Dan
11:07 PM Centurion_Dan1 is now known as Centurion_Dan
11:48 PM he1 is now known as hel