#linuxcnc Logs
Apr 06 2024
#linuxcnc Calendar
04:14 AM Tom_L: morning
05:13 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:22 AM Tom_L: see ya on the flipside
05:23 AM JT-Cave: ok have fun and take some photos
05:26 AM Tom_L: ok
06:24 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:34 AM Tom_L: Log
07:38 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
08:58 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:20 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:59 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:00 AM Tom_L: just crossed into Texas
10:02 AM Tom_L: delay warnings about the eclipse
10:05 AM CloudEvil: It's half an hour later in texas?
10:23 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:34 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:44 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:56 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
11:16 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
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11:37 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
12:53 PM Deejay: hi
12:58 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
01:08 PM Unterhaus_ is now known as Unterhausen
01:11 PM XXCoder: interesting. bluing stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAA_cEZswU8
01:16 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
01:17 PM Unterhausen: local fire company posted a video with a description, "if you have a burning desire to help ..."
01:27 PM lcnc-relay: <big_kevin420> do they sell fires or make fires?
02:11 PM Unterhausen: I only recently saw a story about an arsonist firefighter
02:11 PM Unterhausen: not locally
02:50 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> a lot of arsonists are firefighters
02:52 PM Loetmichel: lcnc-relay: Failed firefighers
02:52 PM Loetmichel: oh, that was ranga
02:53 PM Loetmichel: my bad
03:04 PM roycroft: in a fahrenheit 451 world, the job of a fireman is to start fires
03:45 PM CaptHindsight: with ~40% of the people around here living in an alternate reality, it should come as no surprise
03:49 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> Looks like there is precisely zero interest in fixing the Remora DMAstepgen bug
03:50 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> shouldn't affect me I don't think, plasma cutters don't have to move that fast, but disappointing
03:51 PM XXCoder: capt did you hear about that 3k sls thing
03:51 PM CaptHindsight: ranga: you have to fine the right person to fix it, don't give up so easily
03:51 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> Remora has only one developer
03:51 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: the same one on Discord?
03:51 PM XXCoder: not sls4all new one
03:52 PM XXCoder: https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/1bwwbbf/i_think_i_cracked_the_code_for_affordable_desktop/
03:52 PM CaptHindsight: I haven't been keeping up
03:52 PM XXCoder: understandable
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: I'll check it out soon and let you know
03:53 PM XXCoder: sure. I dont think I would get one for quite a while, if ever. but it looked interesting
03:54 PM * roycroft is getting behinder again, but still making progress on the house
03:54 PM XXCoder: roy you still want that book scanner and delta printer?
03:54 PM roycroft: my goal was to have one room move-in ready by this weekend, but i don't think i'll quite get there
03:55 PM XXCoder: I plan to go south around may for mothers day
03:55 PM roycroft: xxcoder: yes, but i can't even think about that right now
03:55 PM roycroft: ok, if you're coming down here then i'll get it figured out soon
03:55 PM XXCoder: around portland
03:55 PM roycroft: that's still a trek for me, especially from the new house
03:56 PM roycroft: but i'll make a point to figure it out soon
03:56 PM roycroft: meanwhile, i need to get back to pulling tacks/nails/staples from a floor so i can lay tile
03:56 PM XXCoder: no problem. yeah cant do all that much of driving, its hard enough to go to portland or so
03:57 PM XXCoder: my sis lives a little bit south of portland. forgot exactly how far but not too far from portlabd
04:01 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: looks like they use a bunch of low cost Chinese parts, so it's low cost but not highly reliable
04:02 PM XXCoder: not surpised. sls4all is around 5k usd last I heard
04:03 PM CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/hLqSaEiXzIU?si=yOk6QwNvkiswxFZ4&t=179 made like a washer and dryer
04:04 PM XXCoder: interesting
04:05 PM CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/hLqSaEiXzIU?si=IZeuHui2c_m1ZbBv&t=341 powder spreader is just a knife
04:05 PM CaptHindsight: and it leaves gaps as you can see in the video
04:06 PM XXCoder: I guess it depends on usercase
04:06 PM XXCoder: its probably plenty for fun stuff
04:06 PM CaptHindsight: so it's low cost and half assed like a HF product
04:06 PM XXCoder: its definitely not pro tier
04:07 PM CaptHindsight: obviously not using LCNC
04:07 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> I was thinking last night about how one could build an SLS printer with relative simplicity
04:08 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> clearly it was a shared thought process
04:08 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> galvo head + CO2 laser + straightedge as powder spreader, with a normal Z axis
04:08 PM CaptHindsight: they need the Shamwow guy for marketing
04:09 PM XXCoder: lol
04:09 PM XXCoder: didnt shamwow guy die
04:10 PM XXCoder: nah hes still living. hes 59 now
04:11 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> Looking at the SLS4All tech docs... it appears they had similar thoughts
04:11 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> they also look to have gold plated some stuff
04:11 PM XXCoder: sls4all should be able to support more stuff
04:11 PM XXCoder: like ti
04:11 PM XXCoder: in least thats last I heard from them via capt
04:12 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> they're only using a low power laser, that I didn't expect.
04:13 PM XXCoder: if you can have fine temp control, then you just need it to cross from barely pre-melt to post
04:15 PM CaptHindsight: is their control software on git somewhere?
04:15 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/lloRBEGjOeUhjoUeDadMjKyV/image.png
04:15 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> Not publicly
04:16 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> (I really dislike devs who do this)
04:16 PM XXCoder: we are entering spring 2024 so I guess soon?
04:17 PM CaptHindsight: so another closed source project
04:17 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> I'm also not entirely sure why they needed to write their own alternative to klipper-host
04:17 PM XXCoder: they supposely will release software when readu
04:17 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> since realistically everything could have been done either in klipper-fw (handling galvos etc) or the slicer.
04:20 PM CaptHindsight: not really sure what the delay is with SLS4All
04:21 PM CaptHindsight: they stalled out over a year ago
04:22 PM XXCoder: I hope they succeed evenually
04:22 PM XXCoder: because even at 5k usd, its still quite cheap for one that can do metal
04:22 PM XXCoder: that 3k one dont look like it can
04:23 PM CaptHindsight: it's pretty common to see well connected new tech grads get $1-2 million for their start up, might be similar but more shallow pockets
04:24 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/cVoKiRVDIyDAFBbVjvDMHdKu/image.png
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: I have had start ups contact me for materials where they ran some kind of poop-starter and then some investor steps in to take over
04:29 PM CaptHindsight: there was one Chinese SLA poop starter that only raised $10K and a few months later sold their project for $1 million
04:29 PM CaptHindsight: never heard from them again
04:29 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/IGlcNCbEwelCJHvmorOpYhrE/s-l1600.png
04:29 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> What kind of size spindle would you probably mount on a machine like this?
04:30 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> Recently brought the frame, trying to decide what size of a spindle. Considering a 1.5 or 2.2kw Jianken ATC Spindle. Bit worried about weight (plus need to do a Z axis for it still...)
04:30 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> machine is about 1.5m wide
04:30 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/dyJIgipYgVCqstPvnVLjmkpf/s-l1600.png
04:30 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> Tape measure for scale
04:31 PM CaptHindsight: sariah: what material is the base made from?
04:31 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> Welded steel box section. Machine is an old PnP machine
04:32 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> weighs about 1 tonne, stupidly rigid
04:32 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> probably not the best vibration characteristics tbh
04:32 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> but built like a brick shithouse
04:32 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, was made for fast and non-contact
04:32 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> a fair bit of it is cast iron
04:33 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> 2.2-3.5 high speed spindle, probably... but looks like the gantry needs some reinforcement
04:33 PM CaptHindsight: with some mods it could handle a few HP
04:33 PM CaptHindsight: is it still square?
04:33 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> like a steel plate bolted on top kinda thing?
04:33 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> those screws look like they'd need upgrading to something finer pitch
04:33 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> yeah, maybe
04:34 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I'm gonna stick a 1kW 2500RPM motor for the gantry, and 400W or 600W (largest 60mm motor I can find) for the X axis.
04:34 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> not so much. your objective is to reduce vibration and distortion under load
04:34 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> * gantry / Y axis,
04:34 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> true
04:35 PM CaptHindsight: encapsulate the gantry supports in epoxy granite
04:35 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> the forces from the spindle contacting the workpiece are going to want to shove the spindle aside just as much as they're going to want to cut the workpiece... and also every single chip thrown is a vibration impulse
04:35 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> that would be nice. Gonna add a tonne of weight, already weighs a lot. Definitely a future upgrade though.
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: easy enough to change screws and linear bearings
04:36 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> yeah, currently some nice IKO ones though
04:36 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> pitch is quite high though
04:36 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> would do good for plastics and high speed aluminium I imagine as it is hopefully?
04:37 PM CaptHindsight: fine as it is for cutting aluminum , except for the screws
04:37 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> dang
04:37 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> given the cost of changing, I'm inclined to "give it a go" first before changing them out.
04:37 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> the screws won't work
04:37 PM roycroft: i built the stand for my mill-drill out of square steel tubing
04:37 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> their pitch is too steep
04:37 PM roycroft: i filled the tubing with sand, and that has helped quite a bit
04:37 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> the spindle forces will literally stall/backdrive your motors
04:38 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> reckon? even with a 1kW motor?
04:38 PM CaptHindsight: yeah for cutting you really need new screws
04:38 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> depends how imprecise you like your parts
04:38 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> but motor power doesn't have much to do with it at a certain point
04:39 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> you don't want backdrivable screws on a mill
04:39 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> a couple new screws shouldn't hurt the wallet too badly
04:40 PM CaptHindsight: it's like getting a race car with bad tires and not wanting to get new ones, or for a closer analogy a dragster with 2:56 gears in the rear end
04:41 PM CaptHindsight: proper screws will make the most difference
04:41 PM CaptHindsight: what are the XY travels?
04:42 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> looks to me like a 1x1m machine?
04:42 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> 68 x 87cm travel, machine itself is 1.5 x 1.5m
04:42 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> about 30cm of Z space
04:43 PM CaptHindsight: get some Chinese screws until you can afford better
04:43 PM CaptHindsight: if the machine holds your attention
04:43 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> with those screws as is, and the motors I'm eyeing up, it should be able to do 1000N machining force without much issue
04:43 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> if the screws themselves can survive it.
04:43 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> familiarise yourself with the concept of deflection
04:43 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> the maths allows it
04:44 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I've worked in motion control for 5 years :v
04:44 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> think of all the components of the system as being springy
04:44 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> very much aware xD
04:44 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> _shrug_
04:44 PM CaptHindsight: run the numbers on the pitch vs steps per rev
04:44 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> 22 bit servo :P
04:45 PM CaptHindsight: well you can go ahead and then find out and I promise I won't say "I told you so" when you are unhappy with the precision
04:46 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> I can't make that promise
04:46 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I mean, I guess trying it can't do any real harm
04:46 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-4/Newton-s-Third-Law
04:46 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> and changing out the ballscrews won't take any more time then it is right now or later
04:47 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> is 100Kg of force from the ballscrew really not enough for machining aluminium?
04:47 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> its plenty
04:47 PM CaptHindsight: machining is not a low cost hobby
04:48 PM CaptHindsight: unless you don't care about precision
04:48 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I get it in terms of machine frame / gantry rigidity (which has got to be more then most of the cnc gantry routers being sold for less then £20k)
04:48 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> the force is fine
04:48 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> the force is not the issue
04:49 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> the force trying to backdrive the motor will move it out of position, in addition to introducing twist to the screw
04:49 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> so your servo encoder can compensate for the former
04:49 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> the latter is more of a problem, yeah
04:49 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> but it can't know about the latter unless you're using a linear encoder like an inkjet printer
04:49 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> true
04:50 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I might add one of those anyway. Bit concerned about Gantry 'racking'? (Forgot the term possibly
04:50 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> if you can backdrive the screw, you can (and will) be twisting it, with the twist increasing with force
04:50 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> they use two belts and a rod between them to help prevent it, which apparently works, but I don't like it too much. Ideally add a second motor on the other side, operating in force with a suitable control loop to follow the 'master' Y axis.
04:50 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> the gantry racking is a concern, but one step at a time
04:51 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> timing belt or chain is the most common way of handling the issue
04:51 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> dual-motor gives you the same issues as a dual-Z 3D printer
04:51 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> very familier with it
04:51 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> in that things will have to be realigned at every power-on
04:52 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> Elmo and (galil too?) have some great methods to handle it in their systems, but very spenny.
04:52 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> you put linear encoders on each side, and one axis acts as a slave to the other.
04:52 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> pretty sure there's a axis-balancing maths in Klipper and the like
04:52 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> squares up the axis during homing
04:52 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> yeah
04:53 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> Elmo have an awesome thing where they drive the forces against eachother
04:53 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> to get some tilt, to give micro-positioning control via deflection of the beam
04:53 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> which is crazy :P
04:54 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> the gantry seems cast too
04:54 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> I'm assuming the gantry is aluminum
04:54 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> (which I've apparently now started spelling the american way...)
04:55 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> yeah... given it's a moving part on a PnP, probably Aluminium :(
04:55 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> still better then your average 6040
04:55 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> but yeah... not a high bar to pass lol
04:55 PM CaptHindsight: it works just like aluminium
04:55 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> (pretty good for £325 for the whole lot tho :P )
04:56 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> no argument oin that
04:56 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> * on
04:56 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> https://www.jian-ken.com/automatic-pneumatic-tool-change-spindle-motor/jgl-80-1-5kw-2-2kw-2-5kw-24000rpm-40000rpm.html
04:56 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> one of these spindles I'm thinking
04:56 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> aliexpress ball screws are the answer to your problems with pitch angle anyway
04:56 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> not super keen on the weight of it, especially given I need to add a Z axis too
04:57 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> yeah, Suppose I can always add glass encoders on as the feedback to fix their accuracy issue.
04:58 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> eh, so long as you calibrate them to their actual pitch I don't think you'd need to make it that complicated
04:58 PM CaptHindsight: I'd turn it into a laser cutter or water jet
04:59 PM * JT-Shop makes a handicap platform for the bed
04:59 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> True, would need to cut out the support section in the middle, but it'd still be pretty rigid in the middle.
04:59 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> * enough for that job
04:59 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> I'd be eyeballing something along the lines of these . https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003472999700.html
04:59 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> or a plasma
04:59 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> weighs a lot more / even bigger
05:00 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> weight is _good_ in this case
05:00 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> those things feel like a bit of a waste given how rigid it is
05:00 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> maybe a precision fiber laser cutter though
05:00 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> if I had no budget concerns I'd love to throw linear motors on the whole thing :P
05:00 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> zip zip zip
05:00 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> LFF printer?
05:01 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> there's your justification on the speed front
05:01 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> worried about twist in the gantry beam
05:01 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> true
05:01 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I might just set it up as a general purpose R&D platform
05:01 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> interchangeable heads
05:01 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> I'd be possibly worried about it bowing in the middle, but not really twist, you could offset that with a balance weight anyway
05:02 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> a small spindle for some machining, swap out to laser and a print head or PnP head as wished
05:02 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> throw down a nice big 50x50 M6 grid bed
05:03 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> most overbuild drag-knife machine. Lol
05:03 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> I'm trying to avoid having to add a balance weight to my single-sided plasma table.
05:04 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> waterjet would be cool, but would need to waterproof the whole thing somehow, which seems unobtanium with this design xD
05:05 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> also for the cost of an intensifier... might as well buy a whole waterjet.
05:06 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I think I'll order up the motors, fit them and hook them up to linux cnc, then get my DTI on it and see how it responds to getting punched xD
05:06 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> then decide what to do from there. Would be nice to have it moving tbh.
05:09 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> would be a nice frame for a 1kW fiber laser cutter really.
05:09 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I know enough about lasers to pull the job off and build it safely, but I also know enough that 1kW lasers make me a little bit uncomfortable.
05:13 PM CaptHindsight: https://imgur.com/gLwOHAg I have found linear motors of this size for ~1Kea on ebay
05:13 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> niiice
05:14 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I have a few of the Parker MX80L units that I brought years back
05:14 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> when I had more money then sense in my first job XD
05:15 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> that is a really nice setup... looks fun
05:15 PM CaptHindsight: linear motor parts used to sell for cheap since most people can't make them work unless it's all a matched set
05:15 PM CaptHindsight: used versions on ebay that is
05:16 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> yeah
05:17 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/vdTXmzAfwkTPbVHwGXhRGfBf/image.png
05:17 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> Lmao that price tag...
05:17 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> :P
05:17 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> insane
05:18 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> arcdroids are also silly money around here
05:18 PM CaptHindsight: I wonder how many they sell at that price
05:18 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> none. NZ has basically no hobby machining scene
05:19 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> one of the reasons I'm designing my concept to be collapsible
05:19 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> only the old and the rich own property here. and the vast majority of them either pay someone else to do it, or have hobbies like 'plant collecting'
05:23 PM CaptHindsight: tell us about the sheep
05:23 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> not a farmer, haven't seen a sheep in years
05:23 PM CaptHindsight: do they lie?
05:24 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> @Sariah, that machine would be fine with a high speed spindle as long as you are realistic with what you throw at it. Using no more than 1/4" end mills and high speed machining tool paths it would work fine.
05:26 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> ~there goes my 12kW 6000RPM spindle and 6" face mill plan~ Thats my kinda hopes / thoughts for it really.
05:26 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> You aren't going to backdrive those ballscrews with appropriate servos on them. PnP machines move _fast_ and have to be stiff or they would fly apart. The forces on the axis during moves are also very high.
05:27 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> yeah
05:27 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I'm gonna be oversizing the motors violently.
05:27 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> 1kW on one axis, and as large as I can get on a 60mm on the other.
05:27 PM CaptHindsight: have fun working on the machine
05:28 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> trying to figure out how to put together the Z axis in a timely fashion, my milling machine is kind of out of comission in it's current location x.x
05:29 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> need to buy some proper pin gauges & large width micrometers to measure up the mounting plate too, but I guess they were coming at some point anyway.
05:29 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> who knew I'd need inspection stuff for a machine shop >...>
05:30 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> You want light weight if you want to keep the strengths of the machine. I would move the work bed closer to the height of the gantry. It won't take twisting forces as well as one designed for purpose.
05:31 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> yeah
05:32 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> hmm, need to plan out a good path for getting moving with this. Honestly want to start working right away, but got so much going on right now. Need to get a clean environment set up first really.
05:32 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> gonna get some motors ordered and fitted soon though, for the fun.
05:33 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> Probably Rtelligent EtherCAT
05:33 PM Roguish: nonie
05:33 PM Roguish: oooops
05:34 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> I definitely regret not going ethercat
05:34 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> xD
05:34 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I just hope I like LinuxCNC long term :P
05:34 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> everything else is an excess of f*cking around
05:34 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> I don't 🙂 I actually like the analog drives.
05:34 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> if you like grumpy old linux devs and poorly maintained documentation, you'll love it
05:35 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> Lol
05:35 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Yup, open soruce and all the normal issues. The really nice thing is how easy it is to extend.
05:35 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> as long as it works 50% of the time 100% of the time :P
05:35 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> my reasoning is that ethercat is 'parts reduced'
05:36 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> other nice thing is dynamic range
05:36 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> beats step/dir a lot
05:36 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> and a lot less wiring then analog + better bandwidth for the control loops I believe?
05:36 PM JT-Shop: actually linuxcnc has the best documentation of any open source software
05:36 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> as the control loops are kept inside the drive itself.
05:36 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> the most recent documentation for the core, and for most modules, is... old
05:37 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Eh, bandwidth is drive dependent and not realy an issue (though on your machine it might be)
05:37 PM JT-Shop: it's been stable for a long long time
05:37 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> I would love to see support for the Trinamic SPI/UART drives
05:37 PM JT-Shop: you're free to add that
05:37 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Yes, the docs are way better than most of the comercial industrial automation stuff I have dealt with.
05:37 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I want to get EtherCAT support on Klipper :P
05:38 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> any particular reason you've taken my comments as a personal attack?
05:38 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> Klipper as yet doesn't interact with ethernet at all... one of its shortcomings in my book
05:38 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> (except it being a web based IDE :P)
05:39 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> * Interface
05:39 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> well, yeah, I don't count that
05:39 PM JT-Shop: nothing personal except I spent a decade adapting the documents from programmer speak to redneck
05:39 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> xD
05:39 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> shots fired
05:39 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> you kind of started it with your "grumpy old linux devs" 🙂
05:39 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> as the control path cannot go over ethernet
05:39 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> should be not hard to add
05:40 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> just not really... useful?
05:40 PM JT-Shop: I agree with grumpy old linux devs except they all left the project
05:40 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I don't see much value in adding it imho
05:40 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> Ethernet is more RT than USB
05:40 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> true
05:40 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> USB should never be used for real time anything.
05:40 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> you do not know the stereotype?
05:40 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> but then again it doesn't need to be RT, as it's just buffered data
05:41 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> afaik
05:41 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> Also, hi. grumpy middle-aged embedded dev here 🙂
05:42 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> might be issues with the niche machines with multiple klipper boards for even more axis if that's a thing iirc? But you'd still need to mess around with sync on Ethernet boards anyway - and could probably be fixed with a clock sync line and some of that kinda bs between them
05:42 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> kinda ick
05:42 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> For sure, I resemble it more and more every year. During covid I had a the long beard and everything. Wife made me trim it eventually though 🙂
05:42 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> multi-board klipper machines still use USB... I don't love it
05:43 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> Remora is RToE 'ish' and does work well... it'd be great to see a meeting of the minds between the two projects
05:43 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Yes, ethernet based control system need to be designed for it from the beginning. Adding it to a 3d printer firmware is not great.
05:44 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> It can be done, there just isn't much value since all you are getting is a motion planner.
05:44 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> yeah
05:44 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> I must admit, I haven't quite nailed down _why_ LinuxCNC needs to be RT?
05:44 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> except for in the case of 'direct drive' machines
05:45 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> some people use LinuxCNC in the control loop _shudder_
05:45 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> well, that was the old way, can't fault anyone for that...
05:45 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> It comes from the direct drive machines, but you need a fairly hard real time layer to close the control loop.
05:45 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I get grumpy with control loops less the 10kHz :P
05:45 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> why not let the board handle that then?
05:46 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> You still need real time to handle IO for things like tool changers, limit switches, probing, and others.
05:46 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> if you want control loop porn: https://www.triamec.com/en/
05:46 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> best servo drives I've seen in terms of control loops. Utterly insane
05:46 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> offload that to the board too
05:47 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> LOL, not really practical with complex machines.
05:47 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> let the 'PC' simply be the planner and interface
05:47 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> examples?
05:47 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z4CBvqU87c good god
05:47 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> I'm not trying to be a prick... I'm trying to understand
05:47 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> 0.5nm cross talk between stages ;-;
05:48 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> also this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOY-SBlUizs
05:48 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> this is all happening purely in the driver though right?
05:49 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> yeah
05:49 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Well, for example, I have a custom component that create a virtual encoder for my spindle based on the motor encoder and a magnetic alignment sensor. This handle keeping this system in sync with gear changes for spindle alignment during tool changes.
05:49 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> you can runn C# code realtime on the drive, as part of the control loop to add your own maths / functions into it.
05:49 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> to do really funky stuff
05:49 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> You can't really use that in a CNC system as you will create path errors.
05:49 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> :P
05:50 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> I think at the update rate they do, they can do that kind of thing
05:50 PM lcnc-relay: <sariah.l#0> but more with higher bandwidth feedback, like the encoders.
05:54 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/BiXWgiRjTUOQmXnhdnUILtMG/PXL_20240406_175154395.jpg
05:54 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> I got a free locking pliers!!
05:54 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> LMAO
05:55 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> Got the alternator mounted
05:56 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/EJCfqSiIDdRFJciYhfBnoyJD/PXL_20240406_214735934.MP.jpg
05:56 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> belt might be... slightly long
05:56 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> probably.. but it is what is was there..
05:57 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> See that is where it gets really complicated. Doing that on a single axis is easy. Doing that on multiple axis in real time is quite hard. Motion planning is still a topic of PhD level work.
06:03 PM roycroft: blah
06:03 PM roycroft: today ended up being mostly prep day
06:03 PM JT-Shop: so you say
06:03 PM roycroft: i ended up needing a sander that i did not bring with me, and a few supplies that i have at home, and did not want to buy again
06:03 PM JT-Shop: that sounds normal
06:03 PM roycroft: i guess it's a good day to call it quits early and plan on a long day tomorrow
06:04 PM Roguish: roycroft, got your elbow grease ???
06:04 PM roycroft: not enough
06:04 PM roycroft: that's actually one reason i need the other sander
06:04 PM JT-Shop: I have to build a platform to make the bed ~24" off the platform and handrails for the wife
06:04 PM roycroft: the one i brought was not aggressive enough to do the job in a reasonable amount of time
06:04 PM JT-Shop: must be done by tomorrow night so she can get in and out of bed
06:04 PM * roycroft is bringing the big rotex tomorrow
06:05 PM JT-Shop: my daughter just arrived so bye bye
06:05 PM roycroft: jt-shop: about a dozen years ago my then girlfriend got in a wreck and broke both her legs
06:05 PM roycroft: when she got out of hospital they put her in a nursing home for recovery, and it was a horrible experience
06:05 PM roycroft: including her soiling her bed multiple times because the nurses would not answer her call for help
06:06 PM XXCoder: yeah that was what my friend experenced
06:06 PM roycroft: so myself and a couple friends scrambled and built an ada ramp for her at her house
06:06 PM XXCoder: I rather die than go to nusing home
06:06 PM roycroft: we got it done in two days, and put her in a wheelchair and took her home
06:06 PM roycroft: the nursing home and her doctors did not want to let her go, but they could not stop her
06:07 PM roycroft: i also installed grab rails in her bathroom before she went home
06:07 PM XXCoder: thats good
06:07 PM roycroft: that was a serious scramble, but the need was dire
06:07 PM Roguish: SNFs (skilled nursing facilities) are filthy messes. my brother was a quad and lived in one for a lot of years
06:08 PM roycroft: and yes, i think i'd rather die than go to a nursing home
06:08 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> its a global problem
06:08 PM Roguish: just don't stay any longer than absolutely necessary
06:09 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> There are three things that are universally broken, at least in western countries: assisted living, mental health care, and ambulances.
06:16 PM roycroft: the fourth thing that is broken is politics
06:17 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> absolutely.
06:23 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> I was very happy we could keep dad in the house until he died...
06:23 PM lcnc-relay: <skunkworks8841> the hospice nurses were really quite amazing..
06:28 PM Roguish: skunkworks, yup. same here for my father.
06:58 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:10 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:20 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:23 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
08:14 PM XXCoder: https://youtu.be/bnJ4jS31P3Y lost form casting lathe bed
09:29 PM lcnc-relay: <skiboy> https://www.ebay.com/itm/325974469055
09:29 PM lcnc-relay: <skiboy> I'm looking at getting this for my lathe
09:29 PM lcnc-relay: <skiboy> I'm going to be running a 15HP motor off of split phase
09:29 PM lcnc-relay: <skiboy> https://jauriarts.org/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/lMGPjUTidauSfYmPOlPsiNlg/s-l1600.jpg
09:31 PM lcnc-relay: <skiboy> It's showing that it can pull 112A on the split phase input, but that's likely instantaneous, right? It's going to settle at a much lower amperage to actually drive it with a lighter load, right?
09:32 PM lcnc-relay: <skiboy> I calculated the max that the lathe can hold is about 700kg
09:32 PM lcnc-relay: <skiboy> In terms of usable work piece
09:34 PM lcnc-relay: <skiboy> I would imagine for a much lighter load the motor would require far less amps and they oversized the motor a bit
10:41 PM lcnc-relay: <ranga> that's maximum... but the inrush current is likely gonna hurt... that must be a huge lathe