#linuxcnc Logs
Jan 03 2024
#linuxcnc Calendar
02:10 AM Deejay: moin
04:21 AM Tom_L: morning
04:21 AM Tom_L: 28°F High 44°F
05:24 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:25 AM JT-Cave: 26°F High: 48°F Sunny
05:35 AM JT-Cave: To avoid any disruption to your services, we kindly request that you update your payment information within the next 24 hours. This can be done easily by logging into your account by the link below and add your new Payment Method.
05:35 AM JT-Cave: that's so lame
05:37 AM travis_farmer: Morning
05:45 AM NoSpark: hi
05:45 AM NoSpark: I'm getting so frustrated
05:45 AM NoSpark: trying to get a PCI card to work
05:48 AM NoSpark: I'm at the point where I'm looking for a second hand computer with a PCI slot
05:50 AM NoSpark: running the PREEMPT_RT kernel, would something like a Hp z800 12core xeon be suitable?
07:47 AM JT-Cave: I have no clue what that is
07:47 AM JT-Cave: pcw-home, are the 7i97T boards in stock?
08:05 AM pcw-home: We just did a proto run of 10 cards and sold all but one I reserved for debugging. We could ship you that one
08:24 AM JT-Cave: that would be great
08:25 AM JT-Cave: is the configuration the same for the 7i97T as the 7i97?
08:25 AM pcw-home: Yes
08:28 AM JT-Cave: great, so the only difference is the firmware?
08:34 AM pcw-home: Yes, they may be some minor differences in the optimum PWM rate but nothing major
08:39 AM JT-Cave: thanks
09:55 AM Roguish: good morning. rained most of the night, but clear now.....
09:55 AM Roguish: mid 40s
09:55 AM Roguish: F
09:55 AM JT-Cave: Tom_L, I just came up with the solution for mesact to build any number of axes on any main boards plus daughter cards :)
09:56 AM NoSpark: can anyone recommend a PC iwth a PCI slot (not PCIe, or a PCIe bridge) that is still available new?
09:56 AM Roguish: JT-Cave, hey, I saw here yesterday that a friend of your's had a bugeye sprite.....
09:56 AM Roguish: that was my 1st car......
09:56 AM Roguish: loved it.
09:57 AM Roguish: dumb ass teen sold it for a '6 mustang
09:57 AM Roguish: '65 mustang
09:57 AM Roguish: wish I had the bugeye now....
09:58 AM JT-Cave: yeah it was a cool car for sure
09:58 AM Roguish: 948 cc motor
09:59 AM Roguish: I bored mine 60 over. had a giant side draft webber carb. was on it when i got it.
09:59 AM Roguish: I bored mine 60 over. had a giant side draft webber carb. was on it when i got it.
10:00 AM bjorkintosh: is that a song, Roguish?
10:02 AM Roguish: not sure how the duplicate line happened. not a corrous line
10:06 AM roycroft: i had a mustang for a while
10:07 AM roycroft: it was an early '80s model - i forget exactly which year
10:07 AM roycroft: a '65 would have been nice
11:24 AM CaptHindsight: what happened to the developers that used to write clear info about topics like this?
11:25 AM bjorkintosh: CaptHindsight, bosses happened.
11:25 AM CaptHindsight: if you ask on the mail list it will get almost answered but sidetracked into something about their personal beliefs vs just the facts
11:25 AM bjorkintosh: bosses begat deadlines.
11:25 AM bjorkintosh: oh. those people are just lonely.
11:26 AM CaptHindsight: same for the forums but it will most likely get answered after enough posts
11:28 AM CaptHindsight: LCNC devs don't have bosses
11:31 AM rigid: bjorkintosh: mind that loneliness is no joke. anthropologywise, it's actually a pretty new issue at that scale
11:32 AM rigid: CaptHindsight: tbf, working on linuxcnc isn't much fun. the lesser the better
11:32 AM bjorkintosh: rigid, what makes it so tedious?
11:33 AM rigid: check the codebase of OpenPNP. It's so much fun to hack it. And it's JAVA even *yuck*...
11:33 AM bjorkintosh: nah no thanks. i don't know java
11:34 AM rigid: bjorkintosh: lots of issues. no clear paradigms. messy code. verbose code. lots of different styles. inconcsistent structure and modularization. docs are actually not that bad, but it's scattered and A LOT.
11:34 AM rigid: *inconsistent
11:34 AM bjorkintosh: damn.
11:34 AM bjorkintosh: much like most codebases.
11:35 AM JT-Shop: just way too much in lcnc with all those gui's and other stuff
11:35 AM rigid: i've not seen a FOSS project of that size/age that was that messy.
11:35 AM JT-Shop: emc should just have one basic gui axis and the rest installable if you want them
11:35 AM rigid: i mean, that's not some small companies fiddling over the years. it's a fullblown suite.
11:36 AM JT-Shop: and the issues with all those gui's crop up daily
11:36 AM Roguish: JT-Shop, I agree with ya
11:36 AM JT-Shop: plasma is back online so it's nap time now
11:36 AM rigid: JT-Shop: lots of GUIs are not the problem.
11:37 AM CaptHindsight: lots of GUIs have problems
11:37 AM rigid: lack of a clear/small/common GUI interface is.
11:37 AM rigid: i wouldn't even bundle GUIs with linuxcnc. each could be a separate package or project even
11:38 AM rigid: that's not necessary but if it's designed for that, it would be much clearer. currently it's part of "emc" which sort of is the core. wrong place.
11:38 AM bjorkintosh: so it will take some significant effort to reorganize accordingly.
11:39 AM CaptHindsight: well the devs with the keys to the website, wiki, forums etc have disappeared for the most part, if something happens to Andy the project will stall at the current release
11:39 AM rigid: not really, one could do it step-by-step. but it's not trivial, yeah. someone needs to do it and spend quite some brain and time on it. but it's doable for one coders + some 20ish hours i'd say
11:40 AM rigid: very conservative estimate. modularizing the UI correctly could probably done in 3-6h ... but better count in surprises :-P
11:41 AM CaptHindsight: whenever I ask experienced devs about LCNC that have never worked on LCNC they respond with "I though that it turned into machinekit"
11:41 AM rigid: CaptHindsight: yeah, FOSS community is useless if no one from the (large) community is willing to actually engage and sacrifice some free time
11:41 AM CaptHindsight: though/thought
11:41 AM bjorkintosh: rigid, sacrifice free time or gets sponsored.
11:42 AM rigid: CaptHindsight: machinekit seems to be dead, and afais it took lots of shortcuts. linuxcnc - on paper at least - just seems better.
11:42 AM JT-Cave: yep Andy is the only one that can make a release that I know of... I don't know how
11:43 AM rigid: bjorkintosh: is there sponsoring for linuxcnc? i mean, even buying github CI stuff from their shop could probably make maintainer/developer lifes easier
11:43 AM rigid: JT-Cave: theoretically, a release should be nothing more than creating a git tag... the rest happens automatically
11:45 AM bjorkintosh: rigid, not that I know of. but I'm saying sacrificing time is or should not be the only available option.
11:45 AM rigid: github will create a "release" with archives. packaging can probably also hooked to some action. never done packaging in github before, tho. not sure...
11:45 AM rigid: bjorkintosh: well, that's how FOSS works
11:47 AM rigid: i mean, i'm currently trying to get linuxcnc used comercially. it's a smallish company but in theory, it could be a huge one. and it's a real PITA.
11:48 AM rigid: if it wouldn't be a PITA, you could get multiple small or one big company who just pays their coders to work on it.
11:48 AM rigid: that's how a lot of FOSS works. Advantage is: you get people working on it who actually use the code. Ideally, who really like the whole topic of realtime/CNC stuff and are passionate.
11:49 AM rigid: but also donations from companies to the project and the project does the hiring.
11:49 AM rigid: also public funding is not black magic (but also tedious and time consuming).
11:50 AM rigid: although at a certain sweet-spot, any community has some lawyer who knows how to fill out some EU form and write official requests :)
11:51 AM rigid: ...besides that, funding doesn't seem to be the problem. Lack of fun is.
11:52 AM rigid: every small thing is tedious for historical raisins
11:53 AM CaptHindsight: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/50268-trajectory-planner-using-ruckig-lib
11:53 AM rigid: I wonder if every anything has been backported from machinekit. Didn't look deeper into that code. Maybe it's worth stealing their build system or something like that which is cleaner/more modern/less tedious.
11:54 AM rigid: s/every/ever/g
11:55 AM rigid: CaptHindsight: before i'd attempt to add any new feature to the trajectory planner, i'd focus on cleanups.
11:55 AM CaptHindsight: it was ~1500 lines to write an automated Gentoo installer with LCNC included
11:55 AM CaptHindsight: and it just works
11:55 AM CaptHindsight: maybe the problem is Debian?
11:55 AM rigid: you wouldn't build a new fireplace into a messy house with leaking roof
11:56 AM CaptHindsight: what if I enjoy damp? :)
11:56 AM rigid: 1500 lines for an ebuild?
11:56 AM roycroft: if i had no heat i'd build a new fireplace into a messy house with a leaking roof
11:56 AM rigid: CaptHindsight: it's not the only problem of the house. only one person has the key and you need hours to enter your house and leave it :-P
11:56 AM roycroft: and then after i built a fire and warmed up i'd fix the roof
11:57 AM rigid: and the chimney is in the bathroom :-D
11:57 AM rigid: roycroft: but we already have a working trajectory planner. so our house is nice and warm
11:57 AM rigid: just not extra-cozy
11:57 AM CaptHindsight: rigid: https://openlunchbox.com/mw19/index.php/HOWTO:_Gentoo_for_LinuxCNC
11:58 AM rigid: CaptHindsight: ahh, you mean autobuild a gentoo image with linuxcnc
11:58 AM rigid: i see
11:58 AM CaptHindsight: rigid: installs Gentoo + LCNC and some other support apps
11:59 AM rigid: well, an official ebuild would be enough for me. Gentoo folks are picky but generally they accept every pull requests that fits their taste
12:00 PM rigid: ...and is maintained (!) but that's not a lot of effort unlike debian
12:00 PM rigid: pretty much just changing a version number in a textfile now and then
12:00 PM CaptHindsight: Debian always seems to want to change their installer but never seems to finish one before they are on to the next version
12:00 PM CaptHindsight: well Debian is a big herd of cats
12:01 PM rigid: i don't care about debian at all. even on raspbian i'm building linuxcnc
12:02 PM CaptHindsight: a wise man
12:02 PM rigid: i would use a .deb maybe but compiling is not much harder than fiddling apt.lists.d stuff
12:02 PM rigid: and I need master/my code anyway so...
12:03 PM CaptHindsight: clean up and comments, one can dream..
12:05 PM rigid: yeah you see how some ppl comment and some don't
12:05 PM CaptHindsight: about a year ago someone looked into changing NML to something else
12:05 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: be the change you want to see: go through the code and comment stuff you understand in a PR :)
12:05 PM CaptHindsight: I am only dreaming
12:06 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: there has been lots of discussion about NML and I don't think it's the problem. (There's some problem for it not getting autogenerated but since it changes very little, is well written and documented and nicely designed, it's not a problem)
12:07 PM CaptHindsight: oh well my only real advice is, don't get old, don't get sick and choose your parents wisely
12:07 PM rigid: it could be replaced at some point, but that's way more effort than any cleanup (if you care for all features NML gives)
12:07 PM rigid: lol
12:07 PM CaptHindsight: thank you for the discussion, have to go
12:08 PM rigid: i was a bit disappointed that even the first EMC didn't follow RCS-4 ... if it would have, things wouldn't gotten so messy
12:08 PM rigid: yeah appreciate it, l8rs
12:12 PM Roguish: rigid, . try not to be so critical. Linuxcnc is pretty good. a whole lot of very smart machinist/programmers from all over the world have contributed. voluntarily.
12:12 PM bjorkintosh: what is RCS-4, rigid?
12:12 PM bjorkintosh: Roguish, I think he's pointing out a common issue in software in general. it happens all the time.
12:13 PM bjorkintosh: it's really difficult to fix. one just learns to deal with it.
12:13 PM rigid: Roguish: it's a fullblown suite that works. But the codebase has huge issues and it got pretty messy over the years which doesn't go well with the complexity.
12:13 PM Roguish: well, step up then.
12:14 PM rigid: bjorkintosh: NML is part of RCS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_Control_System#RCS-4 https://www.nist.gov/el/intelligent-systems-division-73500/rcs-real-time-control-systems-architecture
12:14 PM bjorkintosh: oh I see.
12:14 PM rigid: Roguish: i did. and probably will contribute more if the code formatting is done.
12:15 PM travis_farmer: so you think you are so special the whole code has to be formatted for you?
12:16 PM rigid: yes. the code formatting is horrible.
12:16 PM rigid: ...also I thing the two differing and outdated styleguides (no one is following) show the problems linuxcnc has.
12:16 PM travis_farmer: blocked that arrogant little twit :-)
12:17 PM rigid: if you can't format your shit, you can't do anything more complex and I won't touch it.
12:17 PM rigid: travis_farmer: bro, do you even format? :-P
12:20 PM roycroft: consistent formatting of code is important
12:20 PM roycroft: and it doesn't even really matter exactly what the coding standard is, as long as it is consistent
12:21 PM travis_farmer: yes, but arrogance is superfluous
12:21 PM roycroft: we have indent(1) as well, so everyone can view/manage code in the style they prefer, as long as it is consistent
12:21 PM rigid: travis_farmer: you don't know lots of coders, do you? ;)
12:21 PM rigid: what did do you for linuxcnc anyway?
12:22 PM roycroft: simmah down, folks :)
12:22 PM travis_farmer: who, me? i am blissfully calm :-)
12:22 PM rigid: roycroft: clang-format seems to better than indent. I created a PR that offers "make format" to call clang-format for autoformating cpp and python code
12:23 PM roycroft: i'm not familiar with clang-format
12:23 PM rigid: i'm just kidding around. if someone ask me if I think i'm special, i won't give a serious answer.
12:23 PM roycroft: nor am i promoting indent(1) as the preferred tool
12:23 PM rigid: and I guess travis_farmer isn't thinking that refusing to do something that doesn't seem worth is really arrogance
12:24 PM rigid: doesn't matter if you're familiar. if you just run it before committing.
12:24 PM roycroft: i'm just making the point that we have tools that allow folks to view/manage code as they wish, without imposing their preference on others
12:24 PM rigid: roycroft: yes, but the problem starts when you try to contribute your freshly indent(1)ed work
12:25 PM rigid: it messes up the diff. review is a pain for ppl who merge your contribution.
12:25 PM rigid: so you HAVE to work on shitty formatted code if you want to contribute
12:25 PM roycroft: no, because you run your code through indent using the style of the repository
12:25 PM rigid: i have some news for you...
12:25 PM rigid: there is no style
12:25 PM roycroft: and that is the problem
12:26 PM roycroft: the repository needs an official style
12:26 PM rigid: yep... but it's solvable and I'm sure we'll get it done
12:26 PM roycroft: the contributors then know what to expect
12:26 PM roycroft: and they can still work in whatever style they wish
12:26 PM roycroft: as long as they push using the official style
12:26 PM rigid: yeah, the official style will emerge soon when people start discussing formatting rules
12:27 PM rigid: in theory they wouldn't even have to. CI can just autoformat any commit
12:27 PM roycroft: you know, we're going through this on the board of the non-profit i volunteer for
12:27 PM roycroft: they had no official rules of order
12:27 PM roycroft: and kind of made things up as they went
12:27 PM roycroft: i convinced them to adopt an official rules of order
12:28 PM roycroft: there was a lot of pushback, because folks complained that having official rules is restrictive
12:28 PM rigid: wdym "rules of order"? is that some US legalspeak?
12:28 PM roycroft: i countered that it's actually the opposite - having a common framework actually frees folks up
12:28 PM roycroft: it's pretty universal - certainly not a us thing
12:29 PM roycroft: pretty much every government and society have rules for conducting their meetings
12:29 PM rigid: yeah i totally agree. too many rules are shit, crazy rules are shit but no rules are shit aswell
12:29 PM roycroft: an official coding style is like establishing a common language
12:30 PM roycroft: as long as everyone understands it and uses it, then the coding style doesn't get in the way of the coding
12:31 PM rigid: yeah, there are styleguides. two even. but no one reads them :) but this is a solved problem in IT. we have autoformatting now.
12:32 PM rigid: the only problem really is, that it's a huge commit and it's not straight forward to compare code before the commit with code after the commit. but it's not a big hurdle, just an extra step.
12:33 PM rigid: ...and everything comes with a price
12:36 PM rigid: that travis_farmer guy didn't really block me, did he? I mean, HE is the cocky guy in the channel :)
12:36 PM * rigid pulls out spraypaint can
12:36 PM rigid: TRAVIS_FARMER WORSHIPS COCKS!
12:36 PM * rigid runs...
12:37 PM * JT-Shop attempts to load a 1/2 sheet of HR onto the plasma table
12:37 PM rigid: oh, it's jt with the rooster. mixed that up :-(
12:37 PM * rigid blushes
12:39 PM JT-Shop: this is a PG channel...
12:39 PM rigid: JT-Shop: cock == rooster, what did you think?
12:39 PM rigid: tsts...
12:39 PM rigid: still a bad joke, sry
12:42 PM JT-Shop: yup bad joke, can be taken several ways so not appropriate for this channel
12:46 PM roycroft: a friend of mine suggested i start using squareup for cc processing instead of paypal, as i do a lot of small (<$30) transactions and the rates are better with squareup for that
12:47 PM JT-Shop: have they been around very long?
12:47 PM roycroft: i signed up, and they wanted me to confirm my identity
12:47 PM roycroft: yeah, squareup have been around for a very long time
12:47 PM roycroft: you've used them dozens of times, i'm sure - most restaurants and coffee shops use them now
12:47 PM * JT-Shop waits for the rest of the story
12:47 PM roycroft: anyway, they wanted the usual biometric confirmation thing
12:48 PM JT-Shop: I pay cash at restaurants :)
12:48 PM roycroft: hold my driver's license in front of a camera and then take a selfie
12:48 PM roycroft: i kept doing it and it kept failing
12:48 PM roycroft: they said they could not match me up with my dl picture
12:48 PM roycroft: after the 10th or so time they just send me an email saying "please respond to this email to confirm your identity"
12:49 PM roycroft: i responded, and now i'm good to go
12:49 PM JT-Shop: do you need to trim your beard?
12:49 PM roycroft: i did not
12:49 PM roycroft: anyway, i wonder about the whole biometric thing if all they really want is an email
12:49 PM JT-Shop: yup, you gotta wonder
12:50 PM rigid: JT-Shop: i'd bet kicking inappropriate stuff from the channel is one of the few things that people actually engage in.
12:50 PM JT-Shop: it happens
12:50 PM roycroft: square charge $0.30/swipe plus 2.6%
12:50 PM rigid: and rooster bots
12:50 PM roycroft: paypal are $0.49/swipe plus 3.9%
12:51 PM roycroft: square also auto-deposit your transactions in your bank account every day
12:51 PM roycroft: with paypal i have to go initiate the transfer, and it takes a couple or three days
12:54 PM rigid: roycroft: videoident is useless anyway https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2022/chaos-computer-club-hackt-video-ident
12:55 PM roycroft: i'm not a fan of it
12:55 PM roycroft: but i found it amusing that square gave up and verified me anyway
12:56 PM rigid: and not even for some trouble in the process but for straight failing the process by not meeting the very criterion the process is for :)
12:56 PM rigid: "looks like you're a girl and that's a photo of a guy... ehrm well, just answer this email"
12:57 PM roycroft: yeah, that's pretty much it
12:57 PM roycroft: i would not have minded if they required me to send them copies of documents in the mail
12:57 PM roycroft: or something similar
12:57 PM roycroft: i did not need instant gratification
12:58 PM roycroft: i would not have minded having to have my bank send them some information about my account
12:58 PM roycroft: but this video thing was what they wanted
12:58 PM roycroft: so i tried to play along
12:58 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +o by ChanServ
12:59 PM roycroft: the other amusing thing is that they require sending a text to my cell phone as a means of 2fa
12:59 PM roycroft: i have sms disabled on my cell phone plan
12:59 PM roycroft: but i have a voip trunk with sms enabled, that has an email interface to the sms
01:00 PM roycroft: so they just send a text to that number and i get it in an email
01:01 PM rigid: a cell phone plan with disabled sms? wow never heard of that
01:01 PM rigid: sometimes you can just give a landline an receive a voice call
01:02 PM rigid: but that's just for data harvesting purposes. it's annoying af
01:02 PM roycroft: it took a bit of haggling with the cell carrier to arrange that
01:02 PM roycroft: they could not comprehend why one would want to do that
01:02 PM roycroft: it was not a technical issue, but a social issue with them
01:03 PM roycroft: once they were sure they understood what i was asking it was easy to do
01:03 PM rigid: why would you want that? i just blocked costly premium sms and chose an infinite sms plan
01:03 PM rigid: otoh no one uses sms anymore
01:03 PM roycroft: because people abuse sms
01:03 PM rigid: they also abuse messengers
01:03 PM roycroft: many people expect that when they send a text message they are due an instant reply
01:04 PM roycroft: and take offense when they do not get the reply quickly enough
01:04 PM roycroft: i had sms enabled years ago and i got tired of people being pissed off at me when i did not reply quickly enough
01:04 PM rigid: that's why I hate giving out my number to whatever shitty DB admin. Elderly people receive tons of scam calls since they spread their number to various DBs in the course of their life. it sucks.
01:04 PM roycroft: so i turned it off
01:05 PM rigid: yeah, probably not the dumbest thing to do. and "i don't have SMS." probably is fun at hotlines.
01:06 PM rigid: not my problem. better tell your devs to care for edge cases :-P
01:06 PM travis_farmer: why the ChanOp, JT?
01:07 PM rigid: basically it all boils down to bad software
01:07 PM rigid: to assert dominance
01:07 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to -o by ChanServ
01:08 PM travis_farmer: ...???
01:08 PM JT-Shop: travis_farmer, just remembering how
01:08 PM travis_farmer: oh, lol
01:08 PM roycroft: he's doing it in case someone chanswats me - he needs to be able to take me down quickly
01:09 PM travis_farmer: ok...
01:09 PM XXCoder: rememebr, always double tap, chest then head
01:09 PM XXCoder: oh wait thats for zombies
01:10 PM roycroft: bomb threats were called in today for 23 state capitols, all of which had to be evacuated
01:11 PM roycroft: er, emailed in
01:11 PM * roycroft thinks things are getting out of hand
01:11 PM travis_farmer: way out of hand
01:11 PM XXCoder: theres always people who think killing is fine
01:11 PM Tom_L: roycroft, is squareup part of square?
01:12 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, cool on the axis stuff
01:13 PM * Tom_L warns rigid to behave like a church choir boy here
01:13 PM JT-Shop: thanks
01:13 PM Tom_L: :)
01:13 PM JT-Shop: yup
01:13 PM * rigid pulls down pants and turns to Tom_L
01:13 PM Tom_L: finally picked up some 5/16 dowel pins today
01:13 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +o by ChanServ
01:14 PM rigid: i'm finishing my first own build of a XYZ cnc tomorrow \o/
01:14 PM rigid: (if the last hammerhead bolts arrive)
01:14 PM rigid: she's a tiny beauty
01:15 PM rigid: ...milly-vanilli it's called
01:15 PM rigid: (only vanilla standard parts)
01:16 PM roycroft: square is the product; squareup.com the website
01:16 PM Tom_L: ok
01:16 PM Tom_L: i use square a little
01:16 PM Tom_L: it seems to be the cheapest going atm
01:16 PM roycroft: yes
01:17 PM roycroft: also, while i've never had a chargeback, square do not have any fees for chargebacks
01:17 PM Tom_L: built all the charges into my program so it's all automated
01:17 PM roycroft: paypal charge $20 even if it's decided in the merchant's favor
01:17 PM Tom_L: the only thing i don't like is they combine daily transactions into a single deposit
01:17 PM Tom_L: and i separate them on my app
01:17 PM roycroft: strip charge $20 up front, but refund that if it's decided in the merchant's favor
01:18 PM roycroft: well i'm not relying on the payment gateway for transaction details
01:18 PM Tom_L: i don't use their chip thing. seems like every time i did they wanted to do an update for it
01:18 PM roycroft: i'm using the api and use my own software for billing/payments
01:18 PM Tom_L: i have a couple but haven't used them in quite some time
01:18 PM roycroft: so it doesn't matter to me
01:18 PM JT-Shop: ah i see that now
01:18 PM roycroft: they sent me a card reader that plugs into a phone about 15 years ago
01:19 PM roycroft: i only used it a handful of times
01:19 PM roycroft: when i signed up with them again yesterday they said they would send me a new one for free, but then tried to charge me $10 for it
01:19 PM roycroft: i declined, as i really have no use for it
01:20 PM roycroft: i mainly process credit cards for domain registrations and hosting services, all of which are invoiced and paid online
01:20 PM Tom_L: they do charge a bit more for keyboard entered cc info
01:20 PM roycroft: if i start going to festivals and craft shows and selling merchandise in person the the card swipe dongle would be useful
01:20 PM roycroft: yeah, everyone does
01:21 PM roycroft: a physical capture is more reliable than a keypad entry
01:22 PM Tom_L: they used to give out the dongles free but you had to buy the chip reader
01:22 PM Tom_L: now they charge for both
01:23 PM Tom_L: i've got 3-4 dongles
01:23 PM Tom_L: had to get a usb c adapter now that smart (stupid) phones don't have audio jacks
01:24 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to -o by Tom_L
01:25 PM roycroft: i just want to get away from paypal
01:25 PM roycroft: i'll keep paypal for folks who prefer it, but most people i know try to avoid it when possible
01:28 PM Tom_L: #define SQUARE_SWIPED_PERCENT .026
01:28 PM Tom_L: #define SQUARE_SWIPED_TRANSACTION_FEE .10
01:28 PM Tom_L: #define SQUARE_KEYED_PERCENT .0350
01:28 PM Tom_L: #define SQUARE_KEYED_TRANSACTION_FEE .15
01:28 PM Tom_L: unless they've gone up recently
01:31 PM Tom_L: i don't use their invoices
01:32 PM roycroft: i don't swipe or key - i use the api
01:33 PM JT-Shop: the only thing I use pp for is sales on mesaus.com
01:33 PM JT-Shop: would squareup work for that?
01:33 PM Tom_L: idk
01:33 PM Tom_L: i use mine in person
01:34 PM JT-Shop: https://squareup.com/help/us/en/article/5922-woocommerce-and-square
01:34 PM Tom_L: https://squareup.com/us/en/payments/online-payments
01:35 PM JT-Shop: for me I have to record each transfer from pp into quickbooks to balance the account
01:36 PM Tom_L: my program generates bank deposits for me and separates the cc from cash/check etc
01:36 PM Tom_L: then i import that to quicken
01:36 PM Tom_L: pretty much all automated
01:37 PM Tom_L: and categorizes all the fees etc
01:38 PM JT-Shop: I need to move my desk 6" to the left and it weighs a ton
01:39 PM Tom_L: fog rolled in this morning and finally started clearing around noon
01:39 PM Tom_L: usually it's gone way before that
01:44 PM JT-Shop: hmm the plasma cutter worked
01:47 PM Tom_L: bomb blast in iran today
01:47 PM Tom_L: XXCoder, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afcFtLPl6Lo
01:48 PM XXCoder: looking
01:48 PM Tom_L: no cc
01:48 PM Tom_L: i skipped to the end to see it work
01:48 PM roycroft: yeah, squareup would work great for that
01:50 PM JT-Shop: a broach would be cheaper and faster
01:50 PM Tom_L: i know
01:50 PM Tom_L: he likes watching videos though
01:51 PM XXCoder: I suppose if guy needs to make slot extremely often, its worthy thing to have
01:51 PM XXCoder: without taking up busy lathe time or whatever
01:51 PM JT-Shop: a broach is much faster than that machine
01:51 PM Tom_L: it reminded me of a shaper
01:51 PM JT-Shop: same here
01:53 PM XXCoder: it probably can be a shaper with some modifications
01:54 PM Tom_L: ok nap overdue
01:54 PM XXCoder: I wish I can take naps lol
01:55 PM XXCoder: one thing puzzled me though
01:55 PM XXCoder: I dont see how to ah I see it now
01:56 PM XXCoder: was wondering on how it would move inwards to make deeper slot but then I saw it
02:03 PM roycroft: i was watching a video last night where the guy was doing microshaping with a surface grinder
02:04 PM roycroft: it was on my tv, so i'm not sure i can find the url again, but it was a pretty interesting video
02:05 PM bjorkintosh: roycroft, by hand?
02:05 PM roycroft: well, he has a manual surface grinder and a cnc surface grinder
02:05 PM roycroft: and does both
02:05 PM bjorkintosh: interesting.
02:06 PM roycroft: he makes tooling about the size of a human hair
02:07 PM roycroft: i can't find it right now
02:08 PM roycroft: i bet if i load the youtube app on my tv it will suggest other videos by the same maker, so next time i'm watching the tv i'll do that an note who it is so i can post a link here
02:10 PM roycroft: google searches keep bringing me to that suburban tool guy who makes creepy, off-color "your wife" jokes all the time
02:10 PM roycroft: i do not want to continue with those searches
02:12 PM rigid: do you know the joke about the guy who needed a pipe machined as thin as a human hair?
02:13 PM rigid: it's quite old where I come from
02:13 PM roycroft: i don't think so
02:13 PM * roycroft prepares to groan
02:14 PM rigid: ok, it goes like this: A guy needed a pipe machined as thin as human hair 3 inches long. He went to ask multiple manufacturers. US, Italian, German but to no avail.
02:15 PM rigid: Most couldn't do it. A few were horribly expensive that only a nationstate could afford it.
02:16 PM rigid: He didn't hear anything back from the Swiss. So he called them. "I wonder if you could machine a pipe as thin as human hair 3 inces long. I guess I didn't hear from you because you can't do it or it would be horribly expensive, right?"
02:17 PM rigid: The swiss guy goes: "oh i'm sorry. Se mail got lost in somewhere. Do you need it wis a female sread or a male sread?"
02:19 PM rigid: it's probably more funny if you actually here the swiss accent :)
02:19 PM rigid: *hear
02:22 PM roycroft: it wasn't as bad as i expected :)
03:46 PM Unterhaus_ is now known as Unterhausen
03:46 PM Unterhausen: Unterhausen machine no-bid because they didn't define their requirements
03:56 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, i'll build later this evening
03:56 PM JT-Shop: ok, I won't push anything more until I get going on the new buildhal.py file
03:57 PM JT-Shop: a lot of things are common in hal but the joints vary so that was my hangup
03:58 PM Tom_L: or should i wait a bit?
03:59 PM JT-Shop: go ahead I fixed a lot of stuff with the firmware page
04:00 PM Tom_L: working on it atm
04:00 PM JT-Shop: ok
04:04 PM travis_farmer: supper at my 94 year old granny's tonight... she had a stroke a week ago, and is still strong enough to host supper (she insisted). my mother is doing the cooking though.
04:07 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, PR#60 up
04:07 PM JT-Shop: k
04:08 PM Tom_L: update the build date :)
04:08 PM JT-Shop: oh crap
04:08 PM Tom_L: i'm not changing it here
04:09 PM Tom_L: forgot a couple missing drill bits from my 2 sets when i was getting .312 dowels today
04:09 PM Tom_L: made a list.. checked it twice..
04:10 PM JT-Shop: I hate when that happens
04:10 PM Tom_L: the ole guy looked pretty good today after battling cancer last couple years
04:10 PM JT-Shop: where?
04:11 PM Tom_L: my local tool shop
04:12 PM Tom_L: i think he does it now just to have something to do
04:12 PM JT-Shop: I can relate to that
04:12 PM Tom_L: i think he lives in the floor above it
04:14 PM Tom_L: if i had to guess he's probably in his late 80's or early 90's
04:15 PM Tom_L: his dad used to run it
04:18 PM jackc: anyone know if the GT series huanyang VFDs are supported now? in googling my issue I came across a forum post from the author from 2017, stating it hadnt been written yet
04:18 PM jackc: andypugh: cc, since i see you in the hy_vfd threads a lot
04:19 PM jackc: i am communicating successfully with the vfd, but the vfd is replying with errors
04:19 PM andypugh: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/man/man1/hy_gt_vfd.1.html
04:20 PM andypugh: Are you using that GT-specific component?
04:20 PM jackc: ah, i am not! i was unaware of it. thank you, reading
04:21 PM jackc: brilliant, these P settings actually match those of my unit :-)
04:21 PM jackc: trying now
04:22 PM andypugh: If you feel like being adventurous, and you are using a Mesa card, and you are prepared to chase down a possible dead-end, then you could look at using the mesa_modbus component. That has the potentially-useful advabntage of being realtime. But that is only even slightly relevant if you are using a lathe with CSS.
04:22 PM jackc: oh interesting- i am using mesa. i may attempt that if this line of inquiry fails for some reason... this is a boring old mill
04:23 PM JT-Shop: Also new versions of 7I95T and 7I96S that have the RS-485 termination option
04:23 PM JT-Shop: so don't need external resistors for modbus
04:23 PM JT-Shop: this is what Peter said the other day
04:23 PM andypugh: I wouldn’t bother with a mill. You don’t care if it takes 200ms to change spindle speed.
04:26 PM andypugh: In other news, I am looking at making a Capto boring bar, and bought the cheapest Capto catridege on eBay. And there is something really “nice” about the stubby polygonal shank.
04:26 PM jackc: ooh
04:27 PM JT-Shop: what are you going to do with that?
04:27 PM Tom_L: make cool videos
04:28 PM XXCoder: more of those interesting boring stuff?
04:28 PM andypugh: Well, I started off wanting a 30mm boring bar for the Multifix holders, and then got to thinking about how to make the but that holds the insert, then started looking at HSK and Capto, and then got interested in whether LinuxCNC can bore the funny capto shape.
04:29 PM JT-Shop: cool
04:29 PM andypugh: Then ended up down the rabbit hole of exactly what _is_ the Capto polygon, as I couldn’t find it online.
04:30 PM Tom_L: the pic i pull up looks like a wankel engine 'piston'
04:31 PM Tom_L: shape
04:31 PM andypugh: But having some numbers from the standard, and then having measured and found that it is a polygon of constant diameter (like a Reuleaux triangle) I found that I had enough to fully define what the shape has to be.
04:31 PM Tom_L: https://news.cision.com/sandvik-coromant-/i/polygon-shank-coupling-size-100--coromant-capto--c10--added-to-iso-dis-26623-standard,c1426010
04:31 PM Tom_L: or is that a knockoff?
04:32 PM XXCoder: only info I found is "The Capto is a polygon curve where the radius is constantly changing along each of the 3 lobes"
04:36 PM Tom_L: seems you should probe the curve on your rotary
04:37 PM Tom_L: probe a good 360 points and you should have a good idea of the shape
04:37 PM andypugh: You can find a part of ISO 26623 online, but nothing that says exactly what the shape is. However knowing the two measurments (Dm and e) from the standard, and that it is a constant diameter (but not radius) shape is enough to fully constrain what the shape must be.
04:40 PM Tom_L: https://cdn.standards.iteh.ai/samples/72968/c99e2d91be584c8a9d32a7c2d49ed7d9/ISO-26623-1-2020.pdf
04:40 PM Tom_L: ?
04:40 PM Tom_L: around P7-8
04:40 PM XXCoder: reading
04:41 PM XXCoder: so it has a taper also
04:41 PM andypugh: Tom_L: Yes, but that extract stops at page 7….
04:42 PM Tom_L: my pdf shows up thru 11
04:42 PM XXCoder: preview thats why probably
04:42 PM XXCoder: hm 11 pages here also
04:42 PM XXCoder: well it was interesting though can barely follow it at all
04:43 PM Tom_L: it may be obsolete though as i found a ISO22623-2"2014 update to that
04:44 PM Tom_L: ISO22623-2:2014
04:44 PM andypugh: There are 11 pages, the last of which is page 7. The pages are i, iii, iv, 1,2..7
04:45 PM Tom_L: ok well, P3-4
04:45 PM andypugh: Anyway, I figured out what the shaps has to be, based on the mathematical properties of a constant diamter polygon.
04:45 PM andypugh: https://a360.co/41JXC4N
04:45 PM Tom_L: i was looking at the PDF page not the physical one
04:45 PM XXCoder: same
04:46 PM andypugh: Dm and 2e is _not_ enough to fully define the shape without extra information.
04:47 PM Tom_L: yeah
04:47 PM XXCoder: andy so basically the "longer sides" is different diameters? and tips is similiar?
04:47 PM Tom_L: the shape (to me) doesn't look quite the same
04:47 PM Tom_L: close
04:48 PM Tom_L: could be my eyes failing me again
04:48 PM andypugh: Yeah, I figured it all out and posted to the mailing list: https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/message/58719805/ (and a drawing in the attachment)
04:49 PM XXCoder: you probably could figure by probing enough points around, and in lines across shaft also
04:49 PM Tom_L: 2 ends is all you need
04:49 PM Tom_L: and the distance between
04:49 PM Tom_L: it's not much of a taper
04:49 PM XXCoder: I suppose unless theres something different
04:50 PM andypugh: It’s a shallow taper so that it has face contact when pulled up.
04:51 PM Tom_L: heh, have sam program one of his shape cutters for it :)
04:52 PM XXCoder: andy can do it yeah
04:52 PM Tom_L: i have no doubt
04:53 PM andypugh: I did it first (on the lathe) but Sam had the idea of expanding to X and Y offsets on the mill.
04:53 PM andypugh: Blimey! 12 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4q8gCpeY1A
04:54 PM XXCoder: man days when we walked uphill to shops in snow everyday
04:56 PM Tom_L: question i have is: do the different size holders use the same profile or is it scaled accordingly?
04:57 PM XXCoder: good question indeed
04:58 PM Unterhausen: I'm having some parts made to be shipped to someone else, and I badly mangled their last name
04:59 PM Unterhausen: going to blame it on autocomplete
05:00 PM XXCoder: as long as its not string of curses
05:01 PM andypugh: Different sizes have slightly different proportions.
05:01 PM andypugh: But they are tabulated in the standard.
05:02 PM Unterhausen: I asked them to change it, but they are fairly inflexible so I already confessed
05:04 PM Unterhausen: I just saw an ad for a square drillbit
05:04 PM Unterhausen: My goal is a lcnc machine fast enough for square holes, infinite retract!
05:16 PM roycroft: just get a canadian drill
05:17 PM roycroft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt4TjhPdyW8
05:29 PM CloudEvil: 'The square hole!'
05:30 PM XXCoder: hey the car headlights is round
05:30 PM XXCoder: get them!
05:46 PM roycroft: the story is that matt and trey visited canada and discovered the robertson drive screw
05:46 PM roycroft: and extrapolated that to make all canadian things that should be round square
06:27 PM vetsin: if i have a 1.8 degree motor, which means 200 steps per rev, and a driver set at 8000 pulses per rev, i can use the scale calculator in pnc with a multiplication factor of 40 right?
10:34 PM CaptHindsight: vetsin: pncconf is for servo configuration vs stepconf for stepper configuration