#linuxcnc Logs

Dec 26 2023

01:20 AM CaptHindsight: NoSpark: in which file?
01:33 AM NoSpark: it was in one of the example hal files
01:33 AM NoSpark: one sec
01:33 AM NoSpark: linuxcnc/configs/by_interface/general_mechatronics/GM6-PCI/3-axis-servo.hal
01:35 AM CaptHindsight: they sort of skip saying that you can just use 1, 2, 3, positive number for position from the start and use negative number for counting from the back
01:35 AM NoSpark: and what happens when multiple items have -1 ?
01:35 AM CaptHindsight: dunno?
01:35 AM NoSpark: or 2 items have -1, and one has -2?
01:36 AM NoSpark: would have thought a better implimentation would be to have the components themselves specify where they want to be
01:36 AM NoSpark: but anyway, was just a curiosity
01:37 AM CaptHindsight: I don't know how it arbitrates ones with the same number in the order requested
01:41 AM CaptHindsight: HAL was first written sometime 2005-2009 IIRC
01:58 AM NoSpark: yeah, it is pretty dated
01:58 AM NoSpark: but it still works, just has lots of oddness
01:58 AM CaptHindsight: maybe some new dev will port it all to Rust and Go
02:02 AM NoSpark: yeah, that was really pathetic of them
02:02 AM NoSpark: not the devs, the company that sen the cease and desist letter
02:22 AM Deejay: moin
04:10 AM Tom_L: morning
04:13 AM Tom_L: then i believe the -1 would be the order in which they are defined as the hal file is read
04:16 AM Tom_L: light dusting of snow 30°F High 38°F
05:05 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:06 AM JT-Cave: and that company is no longer around
05:07 AM JT-Cave: so we should just change the name back to the Enhanced Machine Controller
05:23 AM jpa-: EMC would be terrible for googling help, because it has other meanings also
05:24 AM lcnc-relay: <travis_farmer (@_discord_731083529441640538:jauriarts.org)> Morning
05:40 AM pere_ is now known as pere
07:26 AM NoSpark: emc2
07:27 AM NoSpark: both " linux emc2 " and " cnc emc2 " both return toop results to linuxcnc on google
07:27 AM NoSpark: pretty much every link on both searchs
08:16 AM NoSpark: do hal files support end of line comments?
08:17 AM NoSpark: addf motion-command-handler servo-thread #comment
08:18 AM Tom_L: not that i'm aware of
08:18 AM Tom_L: i know they didn't in the past
08:20 AM JT-Cave: yes
08:20 AM NoSpark: yes, they don't ?
09:01 AM JT-Shop: hmm I need to clean off the plasma table and hook everything back up
10:50 AM roycroft: happy day the christmas music finally stopped!
11:01 AM Tom_L: NoSpark, according to the docs they are not allowed at the end of a line: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/config/ini-config.html#_comments
11:01 AM JT-Cave: that's for the ini
11:02 AM Tom_L: mmm, you'd think they would adhere to the same rule set
11:02 AM JT-Cave: one might assume that but the hal file is processed by a different function
11:02 AM Tom_L: that should be documented somewhere
11:02 AM Tom_L: i haven't found it yet
11:03 AM JT-Cave: agree
11:03 AM Tom_L: like in HAL Introduction or HAL Basics
11:05 AM Tom_L: probably best in HAL Basics
11:05 AM JT-Cave: I've got a problem with birds going in the run and eating and crapping all over
11:06 AM Tom_L: chicken wire all around
11:07 AM JT-Cave: I'm thinking of just putting a small pop door for the hens to come in and out and keep the big door closed
11:14 AM Tom_L: how many chickens do you have now?
11:18 AM JT-Cave: down to 5 on one side and 3 on the other side
11:22 AM NoSpark: in halshow, Im seeing a module called "tc" any idea where this comes from?
11:22 AM NoSpark: contains tc.{0..3}.{acc,pos,vel}
11:28 AM NoSpark: actually, ignore that,
02:13 PM XXCoder: roycroft: that movie where kid wishes everyone would be xmas would be hell on you if you hate that music lol
02:14 PM roycroft: i'm ok with christmas music within measured reason
02:17 PM XXCoder: errm everyDAY would be a xmas day
02:26 PM Unterhaus_ is now known as Unterhausen
02:30 PM solarwind: the boxing week sales suck
02:30 PM solarwind: prime day was better
02:35 PM XXCoder: roy true, everyday for way too long would be annoying I bet
02:35 PM XXCoder: not that I would ever directly experence that
02:51 PM solarwind: and DOWN goes Giuliani
02:51 PM solarwind: LOL his life is finished
02:53 PM solarwind: Well shit, aliexpress isn't cheap for carbide end mills anymore
02:53 PM solarwind: but the reputable brands like Deskar and BB look like they work as well as my Niagara cutters
02:54 PM solarwind: Still wayyyy cheaper than the ripoff local suppliers, but not pocket change cheap
02:54 PM * roycroft is still fighting with the amazon marketplace criminals
02:55 PM roycroft: they still have my $1700, and have sent me a second bogus tracking number
02:55 PM solarwind: roycroft I have written programs to manipulate amazon and can bring you justice, but it's probably not the justice you want to be seen associated with
02:55 PM roycroft: i'll get resolution in my favor
02:55 PM roycroft: but it will take time
02:55 PM roycroft: meanwhile, the non-profit loses out
02:56 PM roycroft: i'm purchasing these drives for a non-profit, and i will not be making any money on the deal
02:56 PM solarwind: You can hope, but if they rule against you, there's nothing you can do other than file a dispute with your credit card company
02:56 PM roycroft: yes, it may come to that
02:56 PM roycroft: but the cc issuer are american express, and it's a business card
02:56 PM roycroft: they take good care of their business customers
02:57 PM roycroft: as did amazon, until recently
02:57 PM roycroft: it was not a night and day difference between amazon consumer and amazon business
02:58 PM roycroft: it was more an alpha quadrant and gamma quadrant difference
02:59 PM roycroft: i would contact amazon consumer customer service and get someone who barely speaks english, has no idea how to understand, much less resolve my problem, but apologizes profusely and incessantly that i'm having a less than stellar experience
03:00 PM roycroft: that person would always need to put me on hold and consult with someone else who does not know what's going on
03:00 PM roycroft: when i would contact amazon business customer service i'd get someone who speaks english natively, asks pertinent questions, and resolves the problem quickly and correctly
03:01 PM roycroft: but now it's all the same, and all the former experience
03:01 PM roycroft: the only difference between consumer amazon and business amazon is the pricing, which is still an important and significant difference
04:07 PM roycroft: one last christmas song, before the season is completely over:
04:07 PM roycroft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy1lK-MDZJU
04:08 PM roycroft: it's john worsley, so it's ok
04:08 PM JT-Shop: https://youtu.be/OPB2nwkwvuw?list=PLB00JHoTw1TeX82Qw8hoFLRJI89Us_jMw&t=565
04:30 PM roycroft: i had a glue up fail over the weekend, so now i get to go redo that
04:30 PM roycroft: i was being stingy and did not turn the heat on in the shop
04:31 PM JT-Shop: hide glue?
04:31 PM roycroft: no, hide glue would not ever fail
04:31 PM roycroft: titebond iii
04:31 PM roycroft: when i clean it up and reglue i'll bring it inside the house to cure
04:31 PM JT-Shop: what temperature did it fail at?
04:31 PM roycroft: about 5c (~40f)
04:31 PM roycroft: it's not cold enough to justify heating the shop
04:32 PM roycroft: but too cold to expect things to cure properly
04:32 PM JT-Shop: I keep my shops at 50°F or warmer
04:32 PM JT-Shop: 60°F if I'm working in there
04:32 PM roycroft: it's not a big deal - i just resawed a board and edge glued the two halves together
04:32 PM roycroft: easy to clean up and redo
04:33 PM roycroft: but i wanted to finish work on that board today
04:33 PM roycroft: oh well
04:33 PM Tom_L: hide glue = animal glue?
04:33 PM Tom_L: heat in a pot?
04:33 PM roycroft: yes and yes
04:33 PM Tom_L: yeah it's messy but won't let go
04:33 PM roycroft: but not what i did
04:34 PM Tom_L: right
04:34 PM roycroft: maybe that's what i should do today
04:34 PM Tom_L: seems you can always revive a dried pot too
04:34 PM roycroft: i'd rather not wait a couple hours to do it though, which is how long it would take if i rushed the hide glue
04:34 PM Tom_L: right
04:34 PM roycroft: i should soak the glue in water overnight before heating it in the glue pot
04:34 PM Tom_L: i generally heated mine in a pot of boiling water
04:35 PM roycroft: i have a proper glue pot - i got an old one used off ebay a few years ago for a good price
04:35 PM Tom_L: didn't have a fancy glue pot
04:35 PM roycroft: and it works fine
04:35 PM roycroft: i don't heat the glue directly in the pot though
04:36 PM roycroft: the pot has an insert that sits inside the water sleeve
04:36 PM roycroft: i fill the insert with water and stick a jar of glue in that
04:36 PM roycroft: it's easier to clean up that way
04:36 PM JT-Shop: I wonder what they used back in the 1800's
04:36 PM JT-Shop: to heat the glue
04:36 PM roycroft: a pot on top of a wood stove
04:38 PM * roycroft should go scrape glue, joint edges, and go for round two of the glue up
04:39 PM roycroft: maybe i'll use hide glue after all, now that i think about it
04:39 PM roycroft: i either use the pva glue and let it cure overnight
04:40 PM roycroft: or soak hide glue pearls in water overnight, heat it up, and instantly have a glue joint
04:40 PM roycroft: it's about the same amount of time overall
04:45 PM JT-Shop: https://youtu.be/2YEriweBD0s?list=PLB00JHoTw1TeX82Qw8hoFLRJI89Us_jMw&t=887
04:45 PM JT-Shop: some big purpleheart
04:46 PM JT-Shop: chance of snow here tomorrow
04:51 PM roycroft: https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/the-swap-meet/the-swap-meet-aa/31865-fs-electric-glue-pot-sold
04:51 PM roycroft: that's what i have
04:51 PM roycroft: and i think i paid about US$50 for it
04:51 PM JT-Shop: looks like a good one
04:52 PM roycroft: yeah, it's the old standard one that most shops had
04:52 PM roycroft: i would wager that most lutherie shops still have one
04:54 PM roycroft: i think rockler still sells them new
04:55 PM roycroft: i guess not
04:56 PM JT-Shop: I assume an electric double broiler would work
04:56 PM roycroft: seems nobody does
04:56 PM roycroft: maybe that's why folks are asking $250 for them now
04:57 PM roycroft: yes, an electric double boiler would work, if it has a temperature controller
04:57 PM Unterhausen: yeah, sad that glue pot seems to have gone missing
04:57 PM roycroft: those hot wax warmers would work too
04:57 PM roycroft: the hold heet was the standard for decades
04:57 PM JT-Shop: if the wax is hot why do you have to warm it?
04:57 PM roycroft: like many decades
04:57 PM Unterhausen: I have the Turkish one that some people sell
04:57 PM roycroft: keep it warm
04:59 PM Unterhausen: this one https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com/2016/10/06/brass-glue-pot-designed-by-hank-levin/
05:00 PM Unterhausen: lee valley glue pot looks nice
05:00 PM roycroft: that's pretty fancy
05:00 PM Unterhausen: I possibly got it from Hank Levin
05:01 PM XXCoder: video had been removed
05:01 PM Unterhausen: I just placed an order with send cut send and forgot the most important part
05:01 PM Unterhausen: I just posted the link for the pic
05:02 PM XXCoder: interesting product though
05:02 PM roycroft: have you used send cut send before?
05:03 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Just got one of those cheap A2 5hp vfds and it can't run my compressor even playing with settings
05:03 PM * roycroft is considering using them for some projects, and wonders if they're as easy to deal with as advertised, and if the quality is as good as advertised
05:04 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Huanyang seems to be the popular off brand option
05:04 PM JT-Shop: compressors have a huge inrush current
05:04 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> So I'm thinking I might swap out for that, I have a month to decide
05:04 PM roycroft: huanyang is more the mainstream chinese brand than an off brand
05:04 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> I figure as much John but I turned the accel time way up and that helped baby it up to speed
05:05 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> But it only got there the first day, took me a while to realize the reason it didn't work day 2 was I had tightened the belts
05:05 PM roycroft: and huanyang are the most-counterfeited vfd
05:05 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> They weren't audible slipping but it was clearly the difference between running at 95% capacity and 105%
05:06 PM JT-Shop: I would just make a 3 phase converter for that kind of inrush current
05:07 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> If I can't get a vfd for less than 200 I'll probably just steal the single phase motor off my old compressor, but I feel a little guilty about that since I kinda offered it to a friend of a friend
05:07 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> The entire compressor, not just the motor, so it's not like he'll go empty handed but still
05:08 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> I thought I'd try setting the max motor freq to a higher value, so the vfd puts out less power, and set the max actual run freq to like 45 or 50 to make up for the minimal lost power
05:08 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Just to have air until I buy something nicer
05:09 PM JT-Shop: the problem with a piston compressor it starts at full load so the start amps are high so ramping doesn't help
05:10 PM JT-Shop: unless you can unload the compressor until it gets up to speed
05:10 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> But with the unloader valve at least the first revolution is free
05:10 PM JT-Shop: yup
05:11 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> And at low speed I strongly suspect the leakage past the rings drops the power some significant amount
05:11 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Are you using V/Hz or vector control?
05:11 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> I couldn't guess if that drop is 5% or 45%, but my gut puts it around 30 until about half speed
05:12 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> V/hz, I doubt this vfd does vector, not that I really know what that is
05:12 PM * JT-Shop calls it a night
05:13 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> See if it has sensorless vector control. That will give you much more torque at low speeds that should let you start your compressor. V/Hz mode has limited torque at low speeds. All but the absolute cheapest units have SVC these days.
05:15 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Huanyang seems to have an Amazon store, but struggling to find the right rating with how there listed
05:15 PM Tom_L: roycroft, crock pot might work
05:16 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> I'm a little confused about the two freq setting however
05:17 PM XXCoder: yeah that wood stuff restore guy uses crock pot
05:17 PM XXCoder: for glue to keep warm
05:17 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> There's one that's the motor freq, I assume the point where the output is full value
05:18 PM Tom_L: small one for melted cheese etc
05:18 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> But then there's torque compensation freq, which they describe as "drive doesn't provide torque compensation if run freq is larger than this value
05:18 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Motor frequency almost always is the nameplate frequency
05:19 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Vfd shipped set up for a 50hz motor, and the rated freq was set to 50 and torque comp freq was set to 80
05:20 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> The only other related setting seems to be"torque compensation" which default is set to 0 with a range 0-4, with only the warning that large values damage motors, I assume it's an offset for the start of the curve, but zero clue how it scales haha
05:23 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> If you have a 60hz motor, the motor frequency should be 60. The torque comp freq seems to be the x intercept for the V/Hz curve. For this application I would set it below the motor frequency, say around 50Hz. You should play with the torque comp value as that will increase the voltage at low frequencies as you guessed.
05:24 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Since you are only running at reduced frequencies during acceleration, you can be a bit aggressive with the torque compensation.
05:25 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Weird that the default setting is set to above it
05:25 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Yes, I don't know if that would cause a shift at the nominal frequency but best not to risk it.
05:26 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Looking at the huanyang, most of them say they have vector control, but not the 5hp I'm looking at
05:26 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> And by that I mean in the listing title
05:26 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Do I need to check the manual to be sure or would any new huanyang definitely just have it
05:28 PM Unterhausen: I'm pretty happy with send cut send. It's laser cutting, so normal limitations apply, but dimensions have been good
05:30 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> You have to check the manual. This is why I don't recommend the cheap (in every sense of the word) import VFDs on amazon/aliexpress. You do have 3 phase power, correct?
05:31 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> FYI, a 5HP nameplate VFD will not run a 5HP motor from single phase. You need at least a 10HP VFD to run a 5HP motor off single phase.
05:32 PM roycroft: well, a 7.5hp vfd would proably work
05:32 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> No it's in my garage I only have subfloor phase
05:32 PM roycroft: but you do have to derate a vfd if you're feeding it single phase
05:33 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> I assume that's due to the larger ripple on the caps and the input diodes right
05:33 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Correct. The ripple is _much_ higher on single phase.
05:33 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> I knew that was true for most vfds after reading the manuals, but this one implies it's meant for both and doesn't say anything about derated for single phase
05:33 PM roycroft: none of the imported ones say that
05:33 PM Unterhausen: tbh, I never bother. My lathe has been happily using an under-rated vfd for years now
05:34 PM roycroft: but you have to possibly derate even more for an imported one than a domestic one
05:34 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> And since they say you must use two specific terminals for single phase instead of any two, I was hoping they had beefed up just those two diodes to make up the difference
05:34 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> LOL, yes I guarantee that they haven't over built it to run on single phase.
05:34 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Lathe is fine to run undersize as you almost never hit the full power of the drive. Unlike an air compressor that goes to 100% right away.
05:35 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Honestly I figured there was a chance of if that, and why I bought the cheap one, 30 day return so if they lie I get my money back
05:35 PM Unterhausen: I wish the hung yang store on amazon had the version with the braking circuit built in
05:35 PM Unterhausen: the real ones use a module, you either get the one with a braking circuit or not
05:36 PM Unterhausen: the fakes you can usually add a braking circuit
05:36 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Do they have an online store? Most ppl seem to get them from eBay
05:36 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> It requires a much larger capacitor bank as well as the beefed up rectifier. The rectifier is not usually the issue but the caps cost 6$$$
05:36 PM Unterhausen: I'm not sure how to tell if you are getting a real one from ebay, but I haven't looked recently
05:37 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Well in the case maybe I just want to add some more caps in parallel of whatever I end out buying
05:37 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> I got lots of high power electric junk around and I know how to do it properly
05:37 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Go to automation direct and get one of the GS20 drives. Cheap and you know what you are getting.
05:37 PM Unterhausen: I don't think you will have problems with the caps
05:38 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> That's what I thought I was gonna do but the automation direct is get up to the price I paid for the whole thing
05:38 PM roycroft: about 90% of the "huanyang" vfds are cheap counterfeits
05:38 PM Unterhausen: hung yang better supported
05:38 PM roycroft: i always buy mine from the huanyang store on amazon
05:39 PM Unterhausen: that's the advantage of amazon, but sometimes they aren't too careful to avoid fakes
05:39 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> A capacitor bank big enough to make a difference will make up the difference in cost. They are not cheap.
05:39 PM roycroft: that's why i buy them from the huanyang store, who do their own fulfillment
05:39 PM roycroft: if you avoid amazon logistics you don't get burned as often
05:40 PM XXCoder: yeah, amazon just out everything "same" together, so even if buying from real source you might get fake anyway
05:40 PM roycroft: when they are doing fulfillment
05:40 PM XXCoder: yeah
05:41 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Wait gs10 or gs20?
05:42 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> GS23-2010
05:42 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> I had made a note about then when I first started shopping, but it looked like $500
05:43 PM lcnc-relay: <zincboy_ca_on> Yup. The 10HP Huanyang is $300 on amazon.
05:43 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Oof that was a typo,I meant to say 40
05:43 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> But that gs23-2010 is actually$511 and backordered
05:44 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> More and more I regret getting this T30 instead of just putting a cheap pump on my "dead" husky
05:45 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> Aka single car garage
05:51 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> although suddenly I'm curious if anyone here knows about the older IR compressors, this one is a 235, and seems to have an internal unloader vavle that has me confused, but i think it works
05:51 PM roycroft: i decided to cheat a bit, and only soaked the glue beads for a half hour
05:52 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> almost every search i do about it tho points me to the newer model, which is like a 2354 or somethign like that
05:52 PM roycroft: the glue will probably be fine - it's not a structural joint i'm doing
05:52 PM roycroft: just making a cover panel
05:52 PM XXCoder: that reminds me, hows case for laser doing so far? and laser machine itself
05:59 PM roycroft: i haven't finished the laser enclosure
05:59 PM roycroft: the weather got too cool and wet to finish it
05:59 PM roycroft: but i still use the laser, in my open garage
06:00 PM roycroft: another reason i'm looking for a new house
06:00 PM roycroft: if i get some more shop space i can make a dedicated finishing room that i can climate control
06:00 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> ugh i still need to replace the tube on my laser
06:01 PM XXCoder: cool
06:01 PM roycroft: i actually need to do some serious work with the laser very soon
06:01 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> i was dragging my feet trying to convinve myself to upgrade to a bigger tube and PSU but i think I finally talked myself out of that
06:01 PM roycroft: i have some brass badges to make
06:01 PM roycroft: and i want to etch some embossing plates
06:01 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> but i sure miss having it on hand, I got spoiled not having to cut gaskets by hand
06:01 PM roycroft: it's going to take some experimentation to come up with a workflow for that, as i cannot directly do anything to brass with an led laser
06:02 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> plus i finally bought msyelf a can of htat laser marking spray and really want to see what it's capable of, i only got to use it once or twice and it seesm like 20W was a little anemic for the super polished stuff but i hope experimenting would get me there
06:03 PM * roycroft wonders if "manly banister" can possibly be a real name, or of it is 100% certain that it is a nom de plume
06:03 PM roycroft: it sounds more like a pr0n name than anything
06:04 PM roycroft: yet i just got a book written by "manly banister" that is not even remotely pr0nish
06:04 PM roycroft: manly miles banister is his alleged full name
06:04 PM lcnc-relay: <birdscouldbereal> hahahaha
06:05 PM roycroft: the full name sounds even more like a pr0n name
06:07 PM bjorkintosh: the PickOS was created by a fellow named ... Dick Pick.
06:08 PM bjorkintosh: Pick was originally implemented as the Generalized Information Retrieval Language System (GIRLS)
06:08 PM bjorkintosh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_operating_system
06:09 PM roycroft: i did a lot of work with pickos
06:09 PM roycroft: i still have a 14" hard drive platter from an old pick machine
06:09 PM bjorkintosh: so you definitely know it's gotta win for most pr0nish!
06:09 PM roycroft: yes
06:11 PM roycroft: and the irony, of course, is that dick pick was an archetypical geek's geek, proudly wearing the ultimate badge of honor - a pocket protector
06:17 PM * roycroft should probably make his annual pilgramage to the mall to peruse the half off calendar vendor
06:17 PM roycroft: i wonder if my glue is ready
06:22 PM roycroft: it is not, so maybe taking off for an hour will be good
08:17 PM snakedGT is now known as snaked
09:26 PM roycroft: apparently manly miles banister was the author's real name
09:26 PM roycroft: he also used the noms de plume gregg powers and val seanne