#linuxcnc Logs
Sep 26 2023
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:58 AM Deejay: moin
01:36 AM rmu: JT-Shop: when you see this, booting into init=/bin/sh doesn't mount filesystem read/write so you have to do that manually something like "mount -o rw,,remount /" IIRC
02:01 AM roycroft: you only need a single comma
02:01 AM roycroft: mount -o remount,rw /
02:24 AM rigid: roycroft: i guess ifconfig is depreciated. iirc ipset is the new kid in town
02:32 AM rmu: ifconfig still works fine
02:32 AM rmu: if it is there
02:33 AM rmu: iproute2, the new kid in town, was also born in the 90ies
02:34 AM rigid: yeah, and i think it's "ip" not ipset
02:35 AM rigid: ah no, it's iproute2 indeed
04:14 AM Tom_L: morning
04:34 AM rmu: rigid: one of the commands is "ip"
05:09 AM JT-Cave: morning
06:25 AM travis_farmer: Morning... i overslept...
06:32 AM travis_farmer: came down and the house was hot... dang mother had the heat up to 77F!!!!
06:50 AM Guest0: Hallo, ich habe LCNC 2.8 mit der Oberfläche Gmoccapy installiert. Alle Achsen verfahren, und die Spindel läuft auch an. Wenn ich mein G54 setze und ein Programm starten möchte bekomme ich immer die Fehlermeldung, dass er über die Achsen hinausfahren würde... Was aber so an sich nicht stimmt... Weiß jemand was das sein könnte ?
06:51 AM travis_farmer: english
06:51 AM JT-Cave: rooster just crowed
06:52 AM Guest0: Hello, I have installed LCNC 2.8 with the interface Gmoccapy. All axes are moving and the spindle is also starting. When I set my G54 and want to start a program I always get the error message that he would move beyond the axes.... But this is not true... Does anyone know what this could be ?+
06:54 AM JT-Cave: it's true
06:55 AM JT-Cave: travis_farmer, Loetmichel_ might be around and he's German
06:55 AM travis_farmer: fair enough
07:07 AM rmu: Guest0: post you problem on the forum in german section, include your .ini and .hal and the gcode in question
07:08 AM rmu: Guest0: Das Problem bitte im Forum schildern, .ini und .hal und den g-code als Anhang dazu posten
07:08 AM Tom_L: G54 may not be set right
07:08 AM Tom_L: which axis gives the fault?
07:09 AM JT-Cave: also trouble shoot with a bullet proof GUI like Axis
07:09 AM Tom_L: the program may be small enough to fit but in the wrong place
07:09 AM JT-Cave: Gmoccapy can be broken from time to time
07:09 AM JT-Cave: yup, touch off wrong maybe
07:10 AM rmu: it can be anything
07:10 AM JT-Cave: yup
07:10 AM Tom_L: we can figure it out by process of elimination starting with the most likely
07:30 AM JT-Cave: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/50168-7i84-max-input-frequency#281605
07:30 AM JT-Cave: micges is online for the first time in years
07:38 AM rigid: does anyone know how these things are called for protecting leadscrews? https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/H4ff2ce2a5e80400586c02b30c2376409q/img.jpg_.webp
07:39 AM rigid: i know they exist with length/diameter suitable for leadscrews but I can't find them for the live of me
07:39 AM rigid: *life
07:41 AM jpa-: "bellows boot"
07:42 AM JT-Cave: https://www.mcmaster.com/products/lead-screw-covers/
07:43 AM rigid: awesome, thank you!
08:24 AM JT-Shop: roycroft, rmu mount -o remount,rw / worked now what?
08:24 AM JT-Shop: I can see all the file system
08:33 AM JT-Cave: I may try and add a new user and see if I can log in as it after doing apt purge, clean, autoremove and update
08:49 AM rmu: JT-Shop: passwd
08:50 AM rmu: passwd should set root password
08:50 AM rmu: adduser to add a new user, not useradd
08:51 AM rmu: it is possible some tools complain about missing /proc /sys etc.., that could be fixed with mount -a (which should mount all filesystems)
09:08 AM JT-Shop: proc is there
09:13 AM rmu: does passwd work?
09:22 AM Scopeuk: passwd sets the current user password by default doesen't it?
09:22 AM rmu: yes
09:23 AM rmu: only root can specify a user
09:26 AM JT-Shop: didn't try passwd yet, I did add a new user and I'm tempted to boot up and see if the new user can login
09:27 AM JT-Shop: but first I'll put the new user into lightdm.conf as auto login
09:31 AM rmu: make sure the new user can sudo
09:31 AM rmu: i.e. is member of sudo group
09:32 AM rmu: or was that adm group? not sure
09:34 AM JT-Shop: hmm how to add the new user to sudo?
09:35 AM JT-Shop: sudo adduser <username> sudo
09:37 AM rmu: vi /etc/group ;)
09:40 AM rmu: sudo usermod -aG sudo “username”
09:40 AM rmu: https://vitux.com/how-to-make-a-user-an-administrator-in-ubuntu/
09:41 AM rmu: you don't need the sudo if you are already root
09:41 AM JT-Shop: still can't login as user
09:45 AM rmu: login as root. examine /var/log/auth.log /var/log/syslog
09:45 AM rmu: something strange is going on on that system
09:46 AM travis_farmer: it's like PAM got replaced by SPAM ;-)
09:46 AM roycroft: to add a user to sudoers, /sbin/visudo
09:46 AM roycroft: or add the user to the sudo group in /etc/group
09:48 AM JT-Shop: a lot of stuff about lightdm login auth fail in auth.log
09:48 AM JT-Shop: it did try and login the new user
09:49 AM rmu: what does it say when you try to login as new user? preferably on the console, not the lightdm-screen?
09:50 AM * roycroft has no familiarity with lightdm, but thinks there is likely an underlying problem still to solve
09:51 AM JT-Shop: do I need to logout as root first to login as the new user
09:52 AM rmu: no
09:52 AM rmu: (assuming you rebooted)
09:53 AM rmu: you can't really login if you are still in your init=/bin/sh environment
09:53 AM JT-Shop: the only option from root is to exit
09:54 AM JT-Shop: I'll remove the auto login from lightdm.conf
09:55 AM JT-Shop: can't edit lightdm.conf from the terminal so I'll have to use the livecd
09:55 AM rmu: don't understand your "only option"
09:55 AM rmu: what does it say when you try to edit?
09:56 AM rmu: that is your problem. maybe filesystem doesn't get mounted read/write for some reason
09:57 AM JT-Shop: when I tried to logout from root the only option was exit
09:57 AM JT-Shop: could be the file system was not mounted for write, I could read it
09:58 AM JT-Shop: read/write must be rw in mount -o remount,rw /
09:58 AM rmu: mount | grep " / "
09:59 AM rmu: should tell you if filesystem is mounted rw or ro and what type it is
09:59 AM rmu: if it is of the ext4 kind and it is mounted read only, use e2fsck -f /dev/to/root/device followed by a reboot
10:00 AM rmu: or better run e2fsck from the livecd
10:02 AM JT-Shop: I give up for now need to load the truck up and prepare to go to Foxy
10:06 AM roycroft: login user
10:07 AM roycroft: login -f user will log you in as user without authentication
10:07 AM roycroft: but login user will prompt for a password
10:08 AM JT-Shop: I ran disk usage analyzer and /var is taking up 50% of the 100% used so clearly I've not cleaned it out
10:09 AM rmu: you said the disk is not full?
10:09 AM rmu: if disk is at 100% no wonder you can't login
10:17 AM roycroft: right - you need some free space before you can log in and do stuff
10:17 AM roycroft: you need to be able to create temporary files and lock files for editors and the like
10:17 AM JT-Shop: I "thought" it was not full but even after deleting a lot of old logs still only a bit of free space left
10:17 AM roycroft: i bet you can clear some space in /var/log
10:18 AM roycroft: and also look in /var/tmp - /tmp does not persist (normally) on a reboot, but /var/tmp does
10:18 AM roycroft: and look in /var/lib as well
10:19 AM roycroft: /var/spool/mail may be stuffed up with outgoing emails that cannot be delivered
10:19 AM travis_farmer: maybe he needs a CRON to keep tabs on drive fillers like logs and tmp files... ;-)
10:19 AM roycroft: there are so many places for var to accumulate disk
10:19 AM rmu: use du
10:19 AM roycroft: which is why i think it's imperative to have /var separate to /
10:19 AM roycroft: du -s /var/*
10:20 AM roycroft: that will tell you where to look closer
10:20 AM roycroft: du -s /var/* | sort -nr | head
10:20 AM rmu: maybe du -sh to get human readable numbers
10:20 AM roycroft: that will give you an ordered list of the ten directories that consume the most disk in /var
10:21 AM rmu: -h will mess up the sort
10:21 AM roycroft: yes
10:22 AM travis_farmer: hmmm, /var/cache is sizable o my server...
10:22 AM roycroft: and is not necessary for a first pass on finding the disk hogs
10:23 AM travis_farmer: as is /var/lib...
10:23 AM roycroft: /var/lib is typically fairly large on a debian-like system
10:23 AM travis_farmer: "4524468 /var/cache"
10:24 AM roycroft: if you run a database engine, the databases are likely in var/lib
10:24 AM roycroft: /var/lib/mysql or /var/lib/postgresql, typically
10:24 AM travis_farmer: yeah, my website does
10:24 AM roycroft: on my web servers/database servers i mount those as separate filesystems as well
10:25 AM roycroft: i have always been a filesystem "splitter", and it's always worked well for me
10:25 AM roycroft: it contains runaway disk hogs
10:25 AM rmu: 27 partitions on my server
10:25 AM roycroft: and since we have lvm now, most of the drawbacks of filesystem splitting are negated
10:26 AM travis_farmer: i will watch it, but that server has 2TB of assigned storage
10:26 AM roycroft: i partition to what i think i'll need, but if a filesystem starts running sort it's easy to lvextend
10:27 AM roycroft: so i don't have to worry about overallocating to have a big safety net
10:27 AM rmu: it sucks that you can't shrink xfs filesystems
10:27 AM roycroft: and with lvm, i don't have to play the old game of creating a new, bigger filesystem, then copying the old one to the new one
10:27 AM roycroft: i use xfs almost exclusively, and that's never been an issue for me, rmu
10:28 AM rmu: "since we have LVM now" -- that thing also is 25 years old or even older IIRC
10:28 AM rmu: just like somebody claimed iproute2 to be the "new"
10:28 AM rmu: thing
10:29 AM roycroft: yes, and i've been using it for that long
10:29 AM roycroft: but i've been using unix for 45 years
10:29 AM rigid: what's the best way to invert the Y-direction?
10:30 AM rigid: hal_pi_gpio driver can't invert pins, so I can't invert the dir pin
10:30 AM roycroft: and lvm was rather shaky at first
10:30 AM roycroft: it was in the early-mid naughties that i started using it on production machines, so only 15-20 years for me
10:31 AM rmu: i use it since the early 2000s
10:31 AM roycroft: i was also using bsd heavily until the mid-teens, and we did not have lvm for that
10:31 AM rigid: rmu: i didn't claim iproute2 as new, i said it depreciated ifconfig recently
10:31 AM rmu: yeah openbsd was fun
10:32 AM travis_farmer: hmmm, my Proxmox backup server just dropped off the network...
10:32 AM roycroft: i still like openbsd as an operating system
10:32 AM bjork1intosh: was? it's still alive. bsd is not *dying*
10:32 AM JT-Shop: hmm df -h still shows sda 100% used even though I removed libreoffice
10:32 AM rmu: but i got rid of all boxes that are not strictly necessary so don't run it anymore
10:32 AM roycroft: i don't like that openbsd decided to focus 100% on being an operating system, and stopped caring about application software
10:32 AM rmu: just installed pfsense in a KVM
10:33 AM rmu: JT-Shop: install ncdu, use that
10:33 AM rmu: ncdu -x /
10:33 AM * roycroft wonders how one can install utilities on a machine that has 100% disk usage
10:33 AM rmu: it will show which parts of the directory tree use what
10:34 AM rmu: often it is not completely full, ext4 reserves a percentage for root usage and that can prevent user login even at 90% full
10:34 AM rigid: can I use negative joint-scale to invert the axis?
10:34 AM JT-Shop: not enough space in var/cache/archives or something like that
10:35 AM JT-Shop: rigid, yes
10:35 AM rmu: 99.99% full may show as 100% but still have some megabytes free space
10:35 AM rigid: JT-Shop: thanks
10:35 AM roycroft: try some of the commands i poster earlier
10:35 AM rmu: JT-Shop: did you clear /var/cache/archives?
10:35 AM roycroft: they are all on the machine already
10:35 AM rmu: yes what roycroft says. du bla bla bla
10:35 AM roycroft: du -s /var/* | sort -nr | head
10:36 AM roycroft: that will show you the 10 directories consuming the most disk in /var
10:36 AM roycroft: then you can drill down the directories and find things you can get rid of
10:36 AM rmu: if you don't find something there do the same for /home, maybe som rogue process filled it up
10:36 AM roycroft: i would look at /var/log, /var/spool, /var/tmp, and /var/lib closely
10:37 AM roycroft: and yes, if /home is not a separate filesystem, look at that, although iirc you said that /var is using 50% of the disk
10:37 AM roycroft: which is why i would start with /var
10:37 AM roycroft: on my production servers, my /var is usually 10GB, and it never fills up
10:38 AM roycroft: i have a separate /var/named, /var/www, /var/log, /var/lib/mysql, etc. as appropriate
10:38 AM JT-Shop: roycroft, I did but they failed with some error
10:38 AM rmu: what size disk are we talking about here?
10:38 AM roycroft: but for non-growing files, 10GB is plenty big for /var in almost every circumstance
10:38 AM JT-Shop: 128GB
10:38 AM * roycroft wonders if the disk is failing
10:38 AM rmu: i agree /var should not use 64GB, 1/10th at max
10:39 AM JT-Shop: that's plausible
10:39 AM roycroft: the du command should not generate any errors if it can read the disk
10:39 AM JT-Shop: du -h works
10:39 AM rmu: "some error" may also be mistypes
10:39 AM roycroft: du -s /var | sort -nr | head
10:39 AM JT-Shop: could be typos
10:40 AM roycroft: er
10:40 AM roycroft: du -s /var/* | sort -nr | head
10:40 AM roycroft: sorry
10:40 AM roycroft: your output should be a list of 10 directories
10:41 AM JT-Shop: 639280 /var
10:41 AM roycroft: the first column is disk usage by the directory in blocks
10:41 AM roycroft: the second column is the directory name
10:41 AM JT-Shop: hmm missed the *
10:41 AM roycroft: yeah, try the second version of that :)
10:41 AM travis_farmer: these IRC disconnects are a PITA...
10:41 AM rmu: the tension rises.... time to get some popcorn
10:41 AM * roycroft is betting on /var/log and /var/spool
10:42 AM rmu: /var/log is the usual culprit
10:42 AM JT-Shop: /var/lib is the biggest one
10:43 AM rmu: du -s /var/lib/* | sort -nr | head
10:44 AM JT-Shop: 6744848 /usr
10:44 AM JT-Shop: biggest of all
10:44 AM travis_farmer: "du -sh /var/*" is easier to read, i just found ;-)
10:45 AM roycroft: but it breaks the sort order
10:45 AM roycroft: and i would argue that it's not easier to read in this context
10:45 AM roycroft: you're not looking for absolute disk usage here
10:45 AM roycroft: just looking for the hierarchies that consume the most, for further consideration
10:46 AM rmu: JT-Shop: so you say /var is 50%, but the biggest dir on disk is /usr ??
10:46 AM roycroft: du -s /usr/* | sort -nr | head
10:46 AM roycroft: i would go there next
10:47 AM roycroft: and now i am going to place my bet on aptitude
10:47 AM roycroft: or maybe /usr/local
10:47 AM rmu: 6744848 /usr thats only 6gig, thats trivial compared to 128g disk size
10:49 AM roycroft: du -s /* 2>/dev/null | sort -nr | head
10:49 AM roycroft: that may take a bit, but that will definitively show you where to go
10:49 AM roycroft: you redirect stderr because /proc is a moving target
10:49 AM rmu: attention use du -sx /
10:50 AM rmu: du-ing /proc or /sys may lead to unexpected results
10:50 AM roycroft: if it's a single filesystem machine sure
10:50 AM roycroft: well, it doesn't really matter
10:50 AM rmu: ok with du it is harmless...
10:50 AM roycroft: rmu: unexpected, but not a big deal
10:51 AM roycroft: your usage will be a tiny bit off
10:51 AM rmu: grep on the other hand...
10:51 AM roycroft: but we're doing a big picture overview thing here right now
10:51 AM roycroft: a few blocks isn't going to matter
10:52 AM rmu: i thought i remembered a situation where du can get caught in a symlink loop
10:54 AM roycroft: on sco? :)
10:54 AM JT-Shop: well lunch time here...
10:56 AM roycroft: run that du command over lunch, and let us know the result when you get back
10:57 AM roycroft: and you can use du -sx if you want
10:57 AM roycroft: i'd still redirect sterr though
10:57 AM roycroft: du -sx /* 2>/dev/null | sort -nr | head
10:59 AM rmu: SCO.... local linux user group 20 years ago invited the SCO vice president to give a talk about those copyright lawsuits and the guy really did show up. that was very funny. "the proof is in my briefcase but I can't show it to you"
11:01 AM roycroft: sco invented the symlink farm
11:01 AM roycroft: i hold them wholly responsible for the abomination that has morphed into /opt which is all symlinks
11:02 AM roycroft: even solaris was not as heinous
11:02 AM rmu: luckily i was never exposed to those OSes
11:14 AM travis_farmer: Mmmm, a 1/4 pound bacon sandwich :-)
11:20 AM JT-Cave: I guess I'll skip my nap today and see if I can get the double chucker mods done
11:26 AM Tom_L: make progress somewhere...
11:34 AM roycroft: i hope you get your bp controller fixed soon
11:34 AM roycroft: because i have a hard time remembering where you are with it and what you just did/need to do next
12:24 PM JT-Shop: next is remove the pc from the mill and setup a desk, chair, kb, mouse and monitor and slap another hd in
12:29 PM roycroft: that sounds like a good plan
12:29 PM roycroft: being able to work at the console comfortably is a good idea
12:30 PM roycroft: but if the disk is good, and just full, i would recommend clearing up some disk space vs. replacing the disk
12:30 PM roycroft: unless you're looking at it as an opportunity to tidy up/upgrade
01:15 PM rmu: it seems all treatment options have failed -- "Patient ist austherapiert" in german.
01:16 PM rmu: if du doesn't find the space-hogs, the filesystem is fried
01:33 PM rigid: is there a way in axis to move the tool back to absolute 0,0,0 after jogging around?
01:35 PM travis_farmer: these IRC disconnects are really starting to tick me off... my internet connection is just fine...
01:42 PM * roycroft thinks travis_farmer is starting to sound like a broken record :)
01:44 PM roycroft: or is it "a broken cd" these days? or "a broken app"?
01:45 PM roycroft: although broken cds and broken apps don't skip back and repeat like records i think
01:46 PM travis_farmer: i just wish i knew what was causing the disconnects...
02:08 PM Tom_L: rigid, G53 Z0 then G53 X0 Y0
02:10 PM Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/gcode/g-code.html#gcode:g53
02:44 PM bjork1intosh: travis_farmer, probably the server
02:47 PM travis_farmer: could be...
02:50 PM * JT-Shop finds another 160GB hard drive with debian 9 and emc installed
02:50 PM JT-Shop: and disk usage is almost nothing
03:24 PM JT-Shop: crap... I have the old hard drive connected and the new one and when I try to copy from old to new I get permission denied... why is this so fkng complicated?
03:25 PM travis_farmer: i am sorry for your troubles, and really wish i knew how to help :-(
03:40 PM * JT-Shop gives up
03:44 PM rigid: JT-Shop: you are probably trying to overwrite files owned by root when logged in as normal user. just copy as root. i'd also delete everything from new first.
03:45 PM rigid: sudo rm -rf /mnt/new/* && sudo cp -r /mnt/old/* /mnt/new/
03:47 PM rmu: JT-Shop: why didn't you look with du like suggested earlier for the space hogs
03:51 PM JT-Shop: I've ran du so many times my head hurts and deleted every file I could find and uninstall libreoffice and it still won't boot up
03:52 PM JT-Shop: so I guess I have to give up on qtpyvcp because I have upgrade to debian 12 "I think" as it's now python 3
03:54 PM rigid: JT-Shop: i usually do it level by level. first: "du --summarize -m /* | sort -n" to find the largest dirs in /, then /bigdir/* ... then /bigdir/subdir/* etc.
03:54 PM rigid: did you check if you didn't just gather huge amounts of logs? a mill HDD shouldn't really fill up over time, should it?
03:55 PM rigid: do you leave all your projects on there?
03:56 PM rigid: JT-Shop: what does it say when it fails booting?
03:57 PM rigid: and how much free space is there? ("df -h")
03:57 PM JT-Shop: name password
03:57 PM JT-Shop: over and over and over and over
03:57 PM rigid: huh?
03:57 PM JT-Shop: and debian 9 must find a cd rom to install
03:58 PM JT-Shop: a continuing prompt for user name and password over and over and over again
03:58 PM rigid: wow, super strange.
04:04 PM * JT-Shop moves on to debian 10 to see if it will install from a usb sd card
04:10 PM rigid: not sure about RT and linuxcnc but install-wise, you could try mint + xfce for a minimal debian based linux that installs flawlessly in a flick
04:10 PM rigid: but since it's debian based, linuxcnc and RT should be similar to vanilla debian
04:12 PM roycroft: i've installed linux mint before and didn't find it any easier to install than debian
04:12 PM roycroft: or maybe i should rephrase that
04:12 PM roycroft: i find debian at least as easy to install as linux mint
04:13 PM rigid: mint install is like windows. but last time I installed vanilla debian was probably a decade ago
04:13 PM roycroft: actually easier, but that's because i install debian on a regular basis (as in several times/month)
04:13 PM rigid: and it was debian server flavour
04:13 PM roycroft: and i've only installed mint a couple times
04:14 PM roycroft: my recollection is that it was trivial to install, but different to debian because it uses a different installer
04:14 PM roycroft: and being different slowed me down a wee bit
04:14 PM rigid: it really depends on taste. people like arch, NixOS, manjaro...
04:14 PM roycroft: mint is probably easier to deal with out of the box for a workstation environment vs vanilla debian
04:14 PM rigid: how did it slow you down? you basically just choose language, timezone and do the partitioning
04:15 PM roycroft: i mostly install headless servers
04:15 PM roycroft: it probably slowed me down because i had to read the screens and do things a tiny bit differently than i do with debian
04:15 PM roycroft: i can install debian in my sleep almost - i've done it hundreds of times at least
04:16 PM roycroft: i'm not making any judgement about easy of installation here
04:16 PM roycroft: the differene is not ease, but familiarity
04:16 PM roycroft: differnce
04:17 PM roycroft: and again, iirc, mint installs in a workstion environment with a gui very nicely, while debian is a bit rough around the edges for a workstation
04:17 PM roycroft: i use macs for workstations
04:17 PM Unterhaus_ is now known as Unterhausen
04:17 PM roycroft: so that's not something i deal with often
04:17 PM JT-Shop: interesting debian 9 and 10 both require a cd drive or they won't install
04:18 PM Unterhausen: I find debian install to be annoying. I like mint better
04:18 PM travis_farmer: USB cd drive?
04:18 PM roycroft: i don't remember if it's the case with debian 9, but i'm sure that i've installed debian 10 from a thumb drive
04:18 PM bjork1intosh: I've standardized on Ubuntu.
04:18 PM bjork1intosh: Before that, I swore by FreeBSD
04:18 PM roycroft: ubuntu is ok
04:18 PM Unterhausen: network install is unreliable for many distributions
04:19 PM roycroft: i've never seen an inherent advantage to ubuntu vs stock debian
04:19 PM roycroft: and again, i'm used to debian
04:19 PM bjork1intosh: yes. I'm still on 22.04. I won't upgrade for a few more years.
04:19 PM roycroft: i'll never say debian is the superior linux distro
04:19 PM bjork1intosh: roycroft, never having to fiddle with configurations.
04:19 PM Unterhausen: I'm fine with debian once I install it. And how often to you install a distro anyway?
04:20 PM roycroft: i'll just say that debian is what i use on servers, and i've not found another distro that has a compelling advantage over debian that outweighs my familiarity with ebian
04:20 PM * JT-Shop goes to look through a stack of cd/dvds for a debian something
04:20 PM roycroft: doing a fresh install of debian 9 is not going to be fun
04:20 PM roycroft: unless it's a bare-bones install
04:21 PM roycroft: the aptitude repositories are mostly gone now
04:21 PM roycroft: i just tried to do one a few weeks ago, and even got a "full dvd image" that should have contained everything i needed
04:21 PM roycroft: aptitude could not find certain packages, and they were gone or superceded on the repositories
04:22 PM roycroft: i ended up with a partial install
04:22 PM Unterhausen: I hate to ask why JT is punishing himself this way
04:23 PM XXCoder: roycroft: im planning to evenually move to LMDE 6. its linux mint debian edition
04:23 PM XXCoder: it looks like linux mint, but base is not ubuntu but debian.
04:24 PM roycroft: but ubuntu is a debian fork
04:24 PM roycroft: so lmde 6 is debian once removed, vs mint which is debian twice removed
04:24 PM roycroft: no?
04:25 PM * roycroft still does not understand the current state of jt's problem
04:25 PM XXCoder: yeah. their goal is almost like linux mint with ubuntu base experence, which is easy install etc etc
04:25 PM XXCoder: but no ubuntu. im grown to dislike ubuntu
04:29 PM XXCoder: it seems to be long term lm goal to get rid of ubuntu also
04:29 PM roycroft: i really don't see why folks think debian is hard to install
04:30 PM Unterhausen: I got real tired of ubuntu.
04:30 PM roycroft: a vanilla install asks a few questions and then does its thing
04:30 PM Unterhausen: I didn't say it's hard, I said it's annoying
04:30 PM XXCoder: didnt say ubuntu was hard to install
04:30 PM XXCoder: errm debian I meant
04:30 PM roycroft: but the installer has lots of flexibility if you need it
04:31 PM roycroft: i almost always configure static networking, for example, and multiple xfs filesystems using lvm
04:31 PM Unterhausen: I had a fascinating issue with the installer last machine I set up
04:31 PM roycroft: doing that stuff is a bit more involved than a vanilla install, but it's not hard
04:31 PM Unterhausen: refused to recognize my hard drive
04:31 PM roycroft: i don't even know how to do those things with ubuntu or mint
04:31 PM roycroft: perhaps it's trivial
04:32 PM roycroft: perhaps a lot harder than with the debian installer
04:32 PM roycroft: "hard" is relative anyway
04:32 PM XXCoder: dunno only used mint for over a decade
04:34 PM roycroft: when i used to install sunos on vme-bus sparcs i had to boot off the 9-track tape, partition the boot disk with a utility in the boot tape root, install a mini-root filesystem in the swap partition on the primary hard drive, then boot off that and use the mini-root to complete the install
04:34 PM XXCoder: fun
04:34 PM roycroft: but at the time (sunos 4.0.3 and earlier), there was a bug in the resolver code as shipped by sun
04:34 PM roycroft: so dns would not work at all out of the box
04:34 PM Unterhaus_: I didn't mind redhat too much
04:35 PM roycroft: i'd have to uucp a new resolver library to the machine, then patch the running kernel with a debugger to link the kernel to the fixed resolver library
04:35 PM roycroft: then i had dns
04:36 PM Unterhaus_: fedora was awful, but the grad students always wanted to use the newest version of everything, no matter how broken
04:36 PM roycroft: *that* was a hard install to do
04:36 PM roycroft: anything modern is a piece of cake compared to old sunos
04:36 PM Unterhaus_: what was the purist version of linux?
04:37 PM XXCoder: arch?
04:37 PM roycroft: i'm not sure how to define "purist"
04:37 PM jdh: a person who insists on absolute adherence to traditional rules or structures, especially in language or styl
04:38 PM Unterhaus_: suse
04:38 PM Unterhaus_ is now known as Unterhausen
04:38 PM roycroft: i guess only linux torvalds could answer that question, then
04:38 PM roycroft: since it's his kernel
04:38 PM roycroft: linus, rather
04:38 PM Unterhausen: he's distro agnostic, isn't he?
04:39 PM Unterhausen: I tried installing suse back when it took 30 floppy drives
04:39 PM roycroft: i have a good friend who installed an early linux kernel about 20 years ago on his decstation at work, and built his own "distro" on top of that kernel
04:39 PM roycroft: i.e. he installed a bunch of gnu utilities to provide a userland
04:40 PM XXCoder: making ones own distro
04:40 PM roycroft: he's been maintaining that machine for a couple decades now
04:40 PM XXCoder: I guess it'd show real skill
04:40 PM roycroft: upgrading the kernel and utils as needed
04:40 PM Unterhausen: if you look at the wikipedia page about distros, everyone has decided to make their own distro at one time or another
04:40 PM roycroft: i'm not sure my friend's would even be called a "distro"
04:41 PM Unterhausen: I can appreciate building your own system, but not 20 years ago
04:41 PM roycroft: he just installed a kernel and some utilities and libraries on a hard drive, then booted from that hard drive, and has been using that system ever since
04:41 PM roycroft: upgrading constantly, of course
04:41 PM Unterhausen: it's like loading your bootloader using toggle switches
04:41 PM roycroft: but he has no package manager or anything like that
04:42 PM * roycroft has done that before, back in the '70s with an altair and an imsai computer
04:43 PM Unterhausen: I am proud to say I never have
04:43 PM Unterhausen: Closest I ever got was writing my own software for a sbc that I burned to an eprom
04:44 PM roycroft: things were different when the s-100 bus microcomputers first came out
04:44 PM roycroft: it was the wild wild west in computerdom
04:45 PM Unterhausen: there was a shop downtown that sold art/engineering/architecture supplies that had an computer you had to load with toggles
04:45 PM Unterhausen: I saw the owner loading the bootloader one time
04:45 PM roycroft: were the toggles big plastic ones that were blue and red colored?
04:45 PM Unterhausen: that was a pretty cool shop back then
04:46 PM roycroft: baby blue, specifically
04:46 PM Unterhausen: I don't really remember, I think they might have just been the baseball bat style handles
04:46 PM roycroft: oh, then not an imsai
04:46 PM Unterhausen: I feel like he might have made that computer
04:46 PM roycroft: the altair had baseball bat handles on the toggle switches, but they were tiny and shiny silver colored
04:47 PM Unterhausen: sounds about right
04:47 PM Unterhausen: one of the bugbook authors worked at the local university
04:48 PM roycroft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDbJXUDc9d8
05:10 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, any luck?
05:11 PM Tom_L: for thumbdrive a web install may work but may just cause more trouble
05:11 PM _unreal_: ok, I think I finished building my PCB design for this current project.
05:16 PM JT-Shop: just going backwards all the time
05:17 PM Tom_L: does it have to install from a thumbdrive?
05:18 PM Tom_L: you were running a custom gui on that too...
05:18 PM JT-Shop: it would be handy to install from a usb sd card
05:18 PM JT-Shop: I "was"
05:18 PM JT-Shop: it's gone now...
05:19 PM Tom_L: no backup or due to the new qtpy5?
05:19 PM JT-Shop: new qtpyvcp for python3 only
05:19 PM Tom_L: mmm
05:20 PM JT-Shop: I still have the repo but if I can't install qtpyvcp from back then I screwed and all that work was a waste of time but fun while it lasted
05:20 PM Tom_L: too much different to update it?
05:20 PM * JT-Shop wanders down to the cave to try and find a damn cd with debian on it
05:20 PM Tom_L: i have some old ones if you can't find something
05:21 PM Tom_L: not sure if they're full or web
05:21 PM Tom_L: probably a mix of both
05:23 PM Tom_L: 9.13 mate nonfree
05:23 PM Tom_L: 10 netinstall
05:24 PM Tom_L: 7.11 :)
05:25 PM Tom_L: 9.13 is 2.3G
05:27 PM JT-Shop: I found a 10.5 debian instal
05:27 PM Tom_L: i probably have more just not on that ssd
05:27 PM JT-Shop: I have 47 debian iso's in my software directory of the nas :)
05:28 PM Tom_L: should have one that will cover it :)
05:28 PM JT-Shop: yup, just trying to avoid burning another dvd if I have one
05:29 PM Tom_L: iirc rufus on win should make it bootable on a thumbdrive
05:29 PM JT-Shop: so if you don't supply a root password you can't use sudo???
05:29 PM Tom_L: i've never run into that
05:30 PM Tom_L: and i sudo on all of them
05:30 PM roycroft: that's a configurable sudo option
05:30 PM Tom_L: default it should be enabled
05:30 PM Tom_L: at least it was here
05:30 PM JT-Shop: where do you configure the sudo option for the user?
05:32 PM JT-Shop: I don't give root a password during the install so my user gets added to sudoers but I *do* set a root password after install. I always use sudo but recovery options in grub will ask for a root password so you can either supply one or add kernel arguments to bring the machine up in single-user mode.
05:32 PM JT-Shop: does that sound reasonable?
05:32 PM JT-Shop: If you want both, then install Debian without specifying a root password. The first user given will get sudo-rights.
05:32 PM JT-Shop: After the install, open a terminal and type:
05:32 PM JT-Shop: Code: Select all
05:32 PM JT-Shop: sudo passwd root
05:32 PM JT-Shop: and enter a password for the root account. Then, you will have a root as well as a sudo-enabled user.
05:40 PM Tom_L: since it's just me i just use the user with sudo
05:41 PM Tom_L: if i needed to i could give root one
05:41 PM XXCoder: same
05:41 PM Tom_L: my server has root
05:43 PM JT-Shop: and that was the whole issue before no root password so it's locked out
05:43 PM Tom_L: i don't have anything on a debian pc that i either can't live without or have saved somewhere
05:43 PM JT-Shop: seems you only need root password to run the recovery option
05:43 PM Tom_L: but that's not the case here
05:45 PM JT-Shop: it sucks to loose qtpyvcp but that's life... get over it and use Axis
05:46 PM XXCoder: jut tighten that up ;)
05:46 PM Tom_L: you don't have the code somwhere? or is it too hard to update it?
05:47 PM JT-Shop: the install is convoluted with all kind of egg crap and other shit
05:47 PM XXCoder: egg?
05:47 PM JT-Shop: it's not a straight forward deb :(
05:47 PM JT-Shop: yep eggs
05:47 PM XXCoder: im not sure what egg is, related to linux
05:48 PM JT-Shop: it's pip crap
05:49 PM XXCoder: ah python pip stuff?
05:49 PM JT-Shop: yup
05:49 PM XXCoder: those suck
05:49 PM JT-Shop: big time
05:49 PM XXCoder: and playing with python anything has ponental to break os
05:49 PM XXCoder: which really sucks
05:50 PM XXCoder: if it was me, id create "ospython" and "python" to create real seperation to keep os safe
05:50 PM JT-Shop: qtpyvcp was cool when it worked but I'm done with it
05:51 PM Tom_L: i've always used axis
05:52 PM Tom_L: it just works
05:58 PM JT-Shop: 4.19 kernel should work great
05:58 PM JT-Shop: yup, Axis is bullet proof... I don't see the point of dragons and flashy crap
05:59 PM JT-Shop: odd the rt kernel didn't show up
06:03 PM Tom_L: not in package manager?
06:04 PM JT-Shop: yup
06:04 PM Tom_L: what did you install 10?
06:09 PM JT-Shop: yup 10.5
06:09 PM JT-Shop: just removing libreoffice and the thousands of language packs lol
06:09 PM JT-Shop: about to call it a day
06:12 PM JT-Shop: guess I didn't fully click on the rt image, I just got the headers
06:12 PM XXCoder: I would love for barebones distro package
06:12 PM XXCoder: ie it dont have billion programs to listen to music or etc
06:16 PM JT-Shop: yup distro's are so bloated with crap it ain't funny
06:16 PM JT-Shop: I remove a zillion apps
06:22 PM CaptHindsight: well debians changed how they handle pyhton libs and tools so it became slightly more complex to install things
06:22 PM roycroft: that's one of the things i really like about debian - a stock install is pretty lean
06:22 PM roycroft: but still bloated
06:22 PM CaptHindsight: and debians don't know shit about kernels
06:23 PM JT-Shop: rt kernel loaded time to quit for the day
06:24 PM JT-Shop: lean? with libreoffice fxic a zillion languages you never heard of and vi
06:24 PM roycroft: that stuff doesn't load for me on install, by default
06:24 PM roycroft: i have to add nvi as a package post-install
06:24 PM JT-Shop: how do you stop it
06:24 PM CaptHindsight: it's all relative, look at the size of Fedora or Suse
06:24 PM roycroft: vi is the posix editor, so it's needed :)
06:24 PM JT-Shop: nano
06:25 PM roycroft: well i don't install a desktop environment
06:25 PM roycroft: so that may be part of it
06:25 PM JT-Shop: well that is all of it :)
06:25 PM roycroft: i do a base install + sshd
06:25 PM roycroft: and go from there
06:25 PM JT-Shop: night
07:20 PM Unterhausen: people who use vi should have to enter the code with toggle switches
07:21 PM XXCoder: C-x M-c M-butterfly
07:39 PM * roycroft has been using vi for 45 years or so, and still finds it the most efficient text editor he's used
07:40 PM roycroft: i gave emacs a good go
07:40 PM roycroft: i tried using it for a couple years
07:40 PM roycroft: and i kept going back to vi
07:41 PM roycroft: but my same friend who maintains his custom linux install is also a big emacs fan
07:41 PM _unreal_: completely unbelievable. designspark just removed support for DXF file format
07:42 PM XXCoder: I used emacs in college years
07:42 PM XXCoder: I loved having 2 views of same file and .h file at all same time
08:12 PM Rhine_Labs: Changing over Soldering Stations from hakko to JBC.. https://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/20230923_1454211-scaled.jpg
08:13 PM Rhine_Labs: https://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Rhine-Labs-Nov-2022-Crop.jpg
08:26 PM roycroft: vi can have split windows, xxcoder
08:26 PM XXCoder: I suppose but I never could use vi effectively
08:26 PM XXCoder: I dont remember why now
08:40 PM _unreal_: vi?
08:41 PM _unreal_: vi is simple
08:44 PM roycroft: vi is modal, and some folks don't deal with that well
08:45 PM roycroft: it fits my writing mode well, as i tend to split up composition and editing into separate steps
08:45 PM roycroft: a modal editor works well for that
09:28 PM _unreal_: roycroft, its killing me. being confied as I am. I have had to choose what OS to use because I just dont have the space to run two computers. :(
09:28 PM _unreal_: so running a linux machine is just a chore. when a lot of what I do is cad using windows cad software :(
09:28 PM _unreal_: if those companies would put out there software for linux I'd be so damn happy
09:35 PM roycroft: i use virtualization a lot
09:36 PM roycroft: although when i upgraded solidworks from 2012 to 2018 the vm got really slow
09:36 PM roycroft: and i ended up buying a dedicated cad workstation
09:37 PM roycroft: if i were really cramped for space i'd probably dual-boot the cad workstation or dual-boot my imac so i could run windows natively on the imac
09:37 PM XXCoder: or build single case to hold 2 computers in it and switch views ;)
09:55 PM roycroft: the writer's strike will be over in a few hours
09:55 PM XXCoder: yeah. wonder if they got good deal.
09:56 PM roycroft: from what i've read, they and the studios met in the middle
09:56 PM roycroft: so probably the best outcome for all
10:07 PM XXCoder: not bad
10:24 PM roycroft: so the late night shows should start up again by next monday at the latest, i should think
10:24 PM roycroft: it's going to take colbert a week of non-stop monologues to catch up
10:25 PM XXCoder: i was entirely unaffected by protests
10:25 PM XXCoder: I dont watch tv
11:05 PM roycroft: tomorrow is the 40th anniversary of the gnu project
11:18 PM XXCoder: fun