#linuxcnc Logs
Aug 24 2023
#linuxcnc Calendar
01:11 AM randy: morning
01:44 AM Deejay: moin
03:18 AM travis_farmer: Morning :-)
04:51 AM JT-Cave: morning
06:23 AM JT-Cave: rooster just crowed
07:01 AM travis_farmer: Hmm, no Tom_L? hope all is well
07:11 AM rigid: oh, why does the setup wizard not support pi_gpio :'-(
07:11 AM travis_farmer: because it isn't realtime gpio, IIRC
07:12 AM rigid: yeah, but "realtimey" enough for a lot of applications
07:14 AM travis_farmer: i don't think there is even a HAL driver for it, but i suppose you could write one
07:15 AM travis_farmer: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.9/html/hal/halmodule.html as an example of how
07:16 AM JT-Cave: which setup wizard?
07:17 AM JT-Cave: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man9/hal_bb_gpio.9.html
07:21 AM rigid: JT-Cave: i mean the pncconf and/or the stepper config wizard
07:22 AM rigid: travis_farmer: there's https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/edit/master/src/hal/drivers/hal_pi_gpio_demo.hal
07:23 AM rigid: people say it works. i mean, if it can do my el-cheapo 3-axis mill in slowmo... it'd already be awesome
07:26 AM travis_farmer: Hmmm, so there is a driver... i was just going by what many others have said in here. i wouldn't try and run stepper drivers off it, as i suspect it would be verrry slow. but maybe... i will leave it for the Pi guys when they wake up
07:28 AM rigid: i didn't dig into it, yet. i'm not even shure how this mesa stuff works. the pi then sends code to the FPGA which generates I/O accordingly so it's offloaded from the raspberry I/O?
07:28 AM rigid: or is it just some sort of buffer?
07:29 AM travis_farmer: it offloads the work from the Rpi to the FPGA
07:30 AM travis_farmer: so things like stepper-generation is less taxing on the Rpi
07:33 AM Tom_L: http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=345&search=rpi
07:33 AM Tom_L: http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=338&search=rpi
07:35 AM rigid: hm, the gpio access in the gpio hal module looks inefficient
07:37 AM rigid: those use the GPIO in the ~MHz range with direct memory mapping (needs root): https://github.com/markondej/fm_transmitter/tree/master
07:37 AM rigid: i think gpiod doesn't do this (or not by default)
07:38 AM rigid: would be interesting to test it... i think i'll try this once I got everything up & running with the simulator
07:39 AM rigid: *with simulation
07:40 AM travis_farmer: would be interesting to see what step speeds you could get up to, and still remain stable and accurate
07:40 AM rigid: oh, they use the pwm controller. that makes sense
07:40 AM rigid: travis_farmer: yeah
07:49 AM travis_farmer: on an unrelated note... i wish Gitkraken worked with my self-hosted Gitlab server... without having to buy the Pro license
09:12 AM CaptHindsight: rigid: use the right pi https://forum.linuxcnc.org/18-computer/48079-can-the-opi5-be-configured-to-run-lcnc
09:13 AM rigid: CaptHindsight: even if I only need to do very slow steps? what could happen?
09:14 AM CaptHindsight: the world won't end
09:14 AM CaptHindsight: there is a thread somewhere using the Rpi4 and software stepping using the GPIO
09:14 AM rigid: good we can rule that out :)
09:15 AM CaptHindsight: I forget how fast they got it to go
09:16 AM CaptHindsight: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/18-computer/42276-remora-rpi-software-stepping-using-external-microcontroller-via-spi/unread has other examples
09:18 AM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKjNOVHhHio
09:18 AM CaptHindsight: Raspberry pi 4 and linuxcnc software step generation
09:19 AM CaptHindsight: he mentions 10Khz stepping
09:21 AM CaptHindsight: https://github.com/Nikolay-Kha/PyCNC
09:23 AM CaptHindsight: https://www.justlast.in/linuxcnc-raspberry-pi-4b-double-step-implementation/ now we have 20Khz step generation
09:25 AM CaptHindsight: rigid: so 20KHz and life as we know it did not change
09:27 AM CaptHindsight: Rpi4 or similar + external micro reach in the few hundred KHz range for stepping and past 1 Mhz using an FPGA
09:28 AM rigid: CaptHindsight: 200kHz is actually the absolute maximum for my DM556T drivers. i'd been surprised. even gpsd is not exactly that slow.
09:28 AM rigid: oh, misread
09:28 AM rigid: nvm :)
09:32 AM rigid: would the 7C81 be the fastest one for the pi4?
09:32 AM rigid: or rather *pi*
09:33 AM rmu: you can always build something faster
09:34 AM rigid: rmu: i mean "available" ... to buy :)
09:34 AM CaptHindsight: that board has Rpi headers and connects over SPI
09:34 AM CaptHindsight: you can also connect over ethernet
09:35 AM CaptHindsight: https://mesaus.com/product/7i96s/
09:36 AM CaptHindsight: Step rates up to 10 MHz are supported.
09:37 AM rigid: CaptHindsight: cool, thanks!
09:37 AM CaptHindsight: https://mesaus.com/product-category/ethernet-cards/
09:39 AM CaptHindsight: rigid: real time Ethernet only works with pi's that have integrated NIC's
09:40 AM CaptHindsight: or some of the Orange or other pi's that have NIC's on PCIe, not USB
09:40 AM travis_farmer: just replaced my laptop power jack, and i love it! no more cord falling out! :-)
09:41 AM rmu: raspberrypi3 and earlier connect ethernet via usb internally, so that won't work
09:55 AM CaptHindsight: rigid: there is an older thread about using an older Opi that had multiple ARM cores along with some integrated microcontrollers that did the softwre stepping
09:56 AM CaptHindsight: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/18-computer/39037-linuxcnc-orange-pi-allwincnc
09:58 AM CaptHindsight: rigid: the RK3588 also has integrated micros, but register info is on the light side
09:58 AM CaptHindsight: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/18-computer/48202-remora-for-rk3588-boards
09:59 AM CaptHindsight: secret docs https://github.com/FanX-Tek/rk3588-TRM-and-Datasheet
10:04 AM rigid: hm... that'd be way more low cost. but sounds even more hacky than gpio
10:08 AM CaptHindsight: it's similar to Remora but you have to find the hidden portal to access them
10:12 AM CaptHindsight: looks like the MCU in the rk3588 is well documented
10:14 AM CaptHindsight: Rockchip RK3588 Technical Reference Manual - Chapter 9 MCU Subsystem page 1276 -1297
10:17 AM CaptHindsight: but with preempt_rt the rk3588 can software step ~130KHz
10:18 AM rigid: i think i'll go with the 7I96S or the 7C81 first
10:20 AM CaptHindsight: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/media/kunena/attachments/34987/ernest-26Jun2023-39271.png
10:21 AM CaptHindsight: rigid: just FYI the 7i96 may be used on anything with Ethernet, the 7C81 just has the rpi headers
10:22 AM rigid: yeah, i wonder what would be better: more bandwidth available or compact build
11:19 AM rigid: would the 7i90HD driver work with the rpi4 spi?
11:20 AM rigid: ...and perform better than gpio, which I assume
11:20 AM rigid: lot's of stuff sold out it seems
11:24 AM JT-Cave: when they shut down the factory that made the spartan FPGA chips all the boards that had an FPGA chip had/has to be redesigned to use the new available FPGA chip
11:24 AM JT-Cave: redesigning a board is not a quick process and many other chips are difficult/impossible to get
11:30 AM rigid: yeah but now since china opened up again, there should be plenty compatibles i suppose
11:32 AM roycroft: deflation in china is going to significantly affect factory output
11:33 AM JT-Cave: not really, there are still many chips that are very hard to find
11:34 AM CloudEvil: And other components
11:34 AM roycroft: negatively affect is what i meant
11:34 AM roycroft: since the deflation started in june chinese exports are down over 12% and imports down over 11%
11:35 AM travis_farmer: and do you want a large, very deadly machine controlled by a cheap chinese, possibly counterfeit chip?
11:35 AM roycroft: i don't think their economy is going to crash, but it's definitely slowing down
11:36 AM roycroft: i've other reasons for not wanting to depend on chinese goods, but that's not one of the
11:36 AM roycroft: m
11:36 AM rigid: i guess they will recover but the trend will be down
11:37 AM roycroft: large us manufacturers who source components from china usually have qa teams at the factories in china to ensure quality control
11:37 AM * JT-Cave decides to wait till after the nap to put out the cornsicles for the hens
11:37 AM roycroft: the chinese can make things just as well as we can
11:37 AM rigid: but not to a level concerning for a few FPGA clones for I/O card customers
11:37 AM roycroft: they can also make pure gabage
11:37 AM roycroft: garbage
11:37 AM rigid: travis_farmer: that's true. but small harmless ones, definetly :)
11:37 AM JT-Cave: so can we
11:38 AM roycroft: yes
11:38 AM roycroft: a wal*mart shopper is not willing to pay for quality merchandise
11:38 AM JT-Cave: I get to test out my polar bear cooler starting tomorrow
11:38 AM roycroft: so the chinese make things that the wal*mart shopper is willing to pay for, and the quality of the product is reflected in that price
11:39 AM rigid: roycroft: sure, that needed to be tested. but i guess that's not the problem. patents is. you need to basically dropship your product
11:40 AM rigid: chinese companies make things according to what quality the customer wants. it's usually "just make barely usable for a time and lowest $ possible" :)
11:41 AM roycroft: that's what i said
11:41 AM roycroft: i don't blame the chinese for making junk
11:42 AM roycroft: we ask them to make a $3 part that, if made right, costs $6
11:42 AM roycroft: they say "ok, we can make you $3 worth of part"
11:42 AM roycroft: and they do
11:43 AM roycroft: when that part is dangerous we can't really sue the chinese
11:43 AM CloudEvil: Another very large part is lack of proper standards and inspection.
11:43 AM CloudEvil: Oh you can.
11:43 AM roycroft: when that part is made in the us and it's dangerous the manufacturer is held responsible
11:44 AM CloudEvil: Chinese courts will implement chinese contracts according to chinese law. If you have a US contract, haha.
11:44 AM CloudEvil: It's as binding as a chinese contract according to chinese law in the US
11:44 AM roycroft: so when we go to the us manufacturer and say "we want you to make this $6 part for $3" the us manufacturer says "no, thanks"
11:44 AM rigid: roycroft: not the one who imports it through customs?
11:45 AM roycroft: isn't that importer usually a chinese-owned company?
11:45 AM roycroft: they're certainly subject to us law if they're based here
11:46 AM roycroft: but when they get sued they can just go bankrupt and move on to the next company they have here
11:46 AM rigid: not sure. someone needs to receive it in the us
11:46 AM rigid: so if the chinese company has a department in the US, then that would basically be the US company. but not sure about US law
11:47 AM roycroft: if you look at where things are imported, you'll see that there are often a large number of importers clustered in the same city, usually in california or florida, who are all obviously foreign-owned, and who have almost identical websites
11:47 AM roycroft: you come in from china, form 15 import companies that all operate identically, all in the same place, and you just move around them
11:47 AM roycroft: as one gets sued/fined/becomes otherwise untenable you close it and shift the business to one of the others
11:47 AM rigid: that'd be dropshipping then I guess. That way you are not the seller.
11:48 AM roycroft: it's a shell game
11:48 AM rigid: the question is, who does customs stuff and who's registered as responsible
11:48 AM JT-Shop: cool, I'll have 7i95T's and 7i73's back in stock soon
11:52 AM JT-Shop: looks like Le Claire IA will not be so hot Saturday
11:52 AM Tom_L: takin off ehh?
11:53 AM Tom_L: i bet their corn looks pretty good right about now
11:54 AM roycroft: i'm sure it's one shell company doing all the importing and distributing the goods to the 15 drop ship companies
11:55 AM roycroft: all of which are owned by the same chinese company
11:55 AM roycroft: or all those 15 companies are actually the retailer, and the importer is the drop shipper
11:55 AM roycroft: however they structure it, it's all the same ownership
11:55 AM JT-Shop: https://vettesontheriver.com/
11:56 AM Tom_L: i can go
11:56 AM Tom_L: registration closed
11:56 AM Tom_L: and i don't have a vette
11:56 AM Tom_L: can't
11:57 AM JT-Shop: you can go, you just can't park on the levee
11:57 AM Tom_L: do they serve lunch on the riverboat?
11:57 AM JT-Shop: I don't know
11:57 AM JT-Shop: but first it's nap time here
11:58 AM Tom_L: i bet they do
11:58 AM Tom_L: should i build?
11:58 AM Tom_L: lunch, nap, build but not necessarily in that order
12:11 PM Tom_L: i think i had relatives in Davenport
12:11 PM Tom_L: not far from there
12:11 PM * roycroft is looking for a photo he saw the other day
12:11 PM roycroft: it was a brand-new, shiny 'vette with a goosenck trailer hitch right behind the seats, hauling a ~40' travel trailer
12:12 PM roycroft: that's true glamping!
12:13 PM Tom_L: https://www.thedrive.com/news/41502/c4-corvette-with-a-gooseneck-hitch-is-a-tow-rig-triumph
12:14 PM roycroft: not that, but i guess the one i saw isn't the only 'vette with a gooseneck hitch
12:15 PM Tom_L: there's not that much 'original' in the world nowdays
12:15 PM Loetmichel: Tom_L: stylish. Want!
12:15 PM Tom_L: Loetmichel, better stick to your pickup trucks
12:15 PM Loetmichel: those i want, too
12:16 PM Tom_L: just got 2 for my kids
12:16 PM Loetmichel: neither i can have, because i an just an underpaid employee.
12:16 PM bjorkintosh: true, there is not much original. the rest can be generated with a LLM.
12:16 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: China courts work more like a conservatives wet dream here. What happens all depends on your status and connections vs what the law says
12:16 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/temp/trucks/Trucks_2.jpg
12:17 PM bjorkintosh: that's not a corvette.
12:17 PM Tom_L: good observation
12:17 PM bjorkintosh: haha
12:18 PM Tom_L: at least they're different colors
12:18 PM Tom_L: they had matching honda civics
12:18 PM bjorkintosh: are they twins?
12:18 PM Tom_L: hah no
12:18 PM roycroft: i think the chinese justice system is more like the cardassian justice system
12:19 PM roycroft: guilt is determined before the charges are made
12:19 PM Tom_L: they were impatient the first round and took what was on the lot
12:19 PM bjorkintosh: and they were impatient the second time around too?
12:19 PM Tom_L: somewhat
12:20 PM roycroft: the purpose of a trial is to admit guilt and make the people feel justice has been served, not to prove guilt or innocence
12:20 PM roycroft: so it's your status and connections that determine whether you're brought to trial in the first place
12:20 PM Tom_L: roycroft, the lawyers have probably discussed how it should go to benefit them both
12:21 PM roycroft: but once you are, the outcome is predetermined
12:21 PM Loetmichel: Tom_L: sigh. Modern Ford trucks are SO ugly it makes me shudder.
12:21 PM Tom_L: yeah i wasn't impressed
12:21 PM roycroft: i don't think mine is unattractive
12:21 PM roycroft: but it's not particularly modern - it's a 2001 model
12:23 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/New_Pickup.jpeg
12:23 PM Loetmichel: "modern" is relative. Tom meant that i let slip a while ago that i want to have a '69 F150 because thats my birth year.
12:23 PM Loetmichel: and i rather think the '61 model looks nicer.
12:23 PM Tom_L: i kinda like the old ones with the stepside bed. rather useless but classic
12:23 PM roycroft: i like the looks of some of the older ones better
12:24 PM roycroft: but the newer ones are more aerodynamic, safer, and more comfortable
12:24 PM Loetmichel: yeah, the 2001 in your pic is "bearable"
12:24 PM roycroft: my '57 chevy was a stepside
12:24 PM Loetmichel: looks wise
12:24 PM roycroft: actually, my first pickup, a '51 ford (also red) was a stepside
12:25 PM roycroft: but most of my pickups have been fleetsides
12:25 PM Loetmichel: stepside?
12:25 PM roycroft: the bed is narrow and has running boards on the outside
12:25 PM roycroft: so you can "step" on them to reach into the bed
12:25 PM roycroft: basically, the sides of the bed are inside the wheel wells on a stepside
12:26 PM roycroft: i don't like the front end of my pickup, but i have a winch for it, and i'm going to be mounting a winch bumper on it
12:26 PM roycroft: i'll probably swap out the grill when i do so, as the winch bumper will be black (probably sprayed with bed liner)
12:27 PM roycroft: and that grill with the chrome will look weird, so i'm thinking of a black grille
12:28 PM Loetmichel: https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/3/1-1956-ford-f150-stepside-pickup-dave-koontz.jpg
12:28 PM Loetmichel: like that one?
12:29 PM roycroft: yeah
12:30 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/ford-f150-2015-2017-gas-5215-original.jpg
12:30 PM roycroft: that's the bumper style i'm planning on getting
12:30 PM Loetmichel: *shudder*
12:31 PM CaptHindsight: https://i.imgur.com/evTawLz.jpg I prefer the early to mid 60's pickups
12:31 PM Loetmichel: but you do you
12:31 PM roycroft: the front where the "move" logo is cut out will actually be where the fairlead mounts, and there is winch mounting plate right behind it
12:31 PM CaptHindsight: https://i.imgur.com/NrIsqkx.jpg
12:31 PM Loetmichel: CaptHindsight: looks nice. Now i know where fallout4 got the idea :)
12:32 PM roycroft: i had a '67 chevy pickup that looked like tath
12:32 PM roycroft: that one had a muncie 4 speed tranny - best pickup transmission i've ever had
12:34 PM CaptHindsight: 67's were a bit more rounded
12:34 PM roycroft: my f350 easily has the best engine i've ever had in a pickup - 7.3l powerstroke
12:34 PM CaptHindsight: https://cdn.dealeraccelerate.com/cam/34/3896/244770/1920x1440/1967-chevrolet-c10-pickup
12:35 PM roycroft: i had a '75 chevy pickup as well
12:35 PM roycroft: oh, wait
12:35 PM roycroft: mine must have been earlier '60s
12:36 PM roycroft: because it looked more like that first '60s chevy - with the rounded windshield and flared roof
12:36 PM roycroft: it's been close to 40 years since i owned that - i guess i misremembered the exact model year
12:36 PM roycroft: maybe it was a '64, not '67
12:37 PM roycroft: i also owned a '57 apache stepside for a while
12:37 PM CaptHindsight: In forget which year the orange one was as well :) 64-66
12:37 PM roycroft: the apache had a starter pedal, which i always thought was cool
12:38 PM roycroft: https://chevroletforum.com/articles/1957-chevy-apache-looks-like-tougher-bel-air/
12:38 PM roycroft: except mine was way more beat up
12:40 PM Tom_L: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JxPaFPHcO3I/hqdefault.jpg
12:40 PM Tom_L: was what my father had
12:41 PM Tom_L: didn't look that good
12:42 PM roycroft: i really do like the look of those old pickups
12:42 PM Tom_L: wood bed
12:42 PM Tom_L: iirc
12:42 PM roycroft: but i love the power and comfort of my f350
12:42 PM roycroft: my '57 apache had a wooden bed
12:43 PM roycroft: i'm not sure if that was a factory thing or not - i got that pickup in the '80s, so it had been around for a while
12:49 PM CaptHindsight: yes wood beds were available for many years
12:50 PM CaptHindsight: up to 87
01:08 PM voldial_ is now known as voldial
01:13 PM rigid: here's some code that toggles GPIO at ~68MHz max. on Pi3B+ using DMA https://github.com/hzeller/rpi-gpio-dma-demo/blob/master/gpio-dma-test.c#L208
01:14 PM rigid: even if linuxcnc couldn't achieve that, it'd probably still be significantly faster as current pi_gpio driver
01:14 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: an F350 is a PITA in germany. Have fun finding a suitable parking spot ANYwhere
01:16 PM JT-Shop: clean
01:33 PM roycroft: here too, but not as badly as in germany, i'm sure
01:33 PM roycroft: and mine is a crew cab
01:34 PM roycroft: 437cm wheel base
01:35 PM roycroft: that winch bumper i'm going to add will make it even longer
01:35 PM roycroft: but not by much
01:35 PM roycroft: a simple u-turn in my prius can be a 5 point turn in the pickup
01:50 PM rigid: [QTvcp.QTVCP.QT_MAKEGUI][ERROR] /home/chris/emc/share/qtvcp/screens/woodpecker/argentium.qss theme not available. (qt_makegui.py:261)
01:50 PM rigid: whoever "chris" is
01:51 PM rigid: in the example configs sim->woodpecker_xyza
01:53 PM JT-Shop: he is the author
01:54 PM rigid: same for dragon: "ngcgui: make_fileset: [Errno 2] Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden: '/home/rigid/nc_files/ngcgui_lib/slot.ngc'
01:54 PM rigid: although, this time it's me :)
01:54 PM rigid: sry, it means "File not found"
01:56 PM CaptHindsight: where do you get Rpi4's?
01:56 PM CaptHindsight: are they back in stock?
01:56 PM rigid: do I _need_ to run the UI on the rpi4? i hope I can do it remotely via ssh.
01:56 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: i have ~5-10ish in stock
01:57 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: also yes... slowly coming down to pre-covid prices
01:57 PM CaptHindsight: but where do I get them? :)
01:58 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: https://rpilocator.com/
01:58 PM roycroft: i run my rpis headless
01:58 PM rigid: a man of culture
01:59 PM rigid: roycroft: and you use linuxcnc on them?
01:59 PM roycroft: when i was experimenting with linuxcnc on an rpi i at first used x forwarding under ssh
01:59 PM roycroft: i strongly recommend not doing that
01:59 PM roycroft: if the ssh tunnel closes your linuxnc session abruptly stops
01:59 PM rigid: yeah, it's suboptimal and quite heavy for a realtime os
01:59 PM roycroft: now i run a vnc server on the rpi
02:00 PM roycroft: and connect to it with a laptop using vnc
02:00 PM rigid: well, you _could_ use nohup or some multiplexer for it. like screen or tmux. then it keeps running
02:00 PM roycroft: the vnc session can drop and linuxcnc will continue running
02:00 PM CaptHindsight: are there counters on the Rpi GPIO pins?
02:00 PM rigid: roycroft: i suppose you use some sort of external mesa card thing?
02:01 PM rigid: not gpio
02:01 PM roycroft: yes, a mesa card is required for linuxcnc on an rpi
02:01 PM roycroft: or something similar
02:01 PM CaptHindsight: he found the magic Rpi DMA gpio code
02:01 PM CaptHindsight: now we need some counters
02:01 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: good question. there are quite some undocumented features
02:02 PM CaptHindsight: fun
02:02 PM CaptHindsight: but that is Broadcom
02:04 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: you mean pulse counter to completely offload pulse generation?
02:04 PM rigid: i guess even bitbanging would be faster than the current code
02:04 PM CaptHindsight: to make one
02:04 PM rigid: make one?
02:05 PM CaptHindsight: a Step pulse generator
02:05 PM rigid: there are interrupts that trigger on falling/rising edge. but certainly way slower
02:06 PM CaptHindsight: see how it goes, I lost interest in the R pi's long ago
02:06 PM roycroft: you finally wised up and learned that bananas make better weapons than raspberries
02:06 PM roycroft: or maybe even pointed sticks
02:06 PM rigid: yeah, the lack of decent & complete documentation sucks.
02:06 PM CaptHindsight: the Rockchip and Allwinner pi's are not much better, but at least there are docs
02:07 PM CaptHindsight: risc-v is going the same way
02:07 PM CaptHindsight: EFI and similar closed source BS
02:08 PM rigid: gotta hide those secrets
02:08 PM CaptHindsight: well do you want the world to end?
02:09 PM rigid: i'd like all those pi/bcm documentation leaked
02:10 PM CaptHindsight: i wonder if the Rpi foundation even gets them
02:10 PM rigid: the platform is nice, reliable, predictable and exceptionally well tested in edge cases
02:10 PM CaptHindsight: Broadcom is pathological
02:10 PM rigid: yeah
02:10 PM CaptHindsight: don't reward bad behavior
02:10 PM rigid: some open uboot risc v based pi should be a thing
02:11 PM CaptHindsight: getting closer
02:11 PM CaptHindsight: but they are trying to keep the firmware closed
02:11 PM rigid: well, all allwinner/banana/oranges I had suck at long term support
02:11 PM rigid: i can totally find a current kernel image for a raspi 1
02:12 PM rigid: maybe it got better in the meantime
02:12 PM CaptHindsight: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/18-computer/46077-potential-all-in-one-single-board-computers
02:12 PM CaptHindsight: been sort of tracking new boards here
02:12 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: yeah, and it's not that bad. i think they even made the bcm gpu opensource?
02:13 PM rigid: well, for cnc i'd prefer a bullet-proof sbc
02:13 PM rigid: ...one where hours after release, people find the edge case where it crashes after flashing it with an old photo flash :-P
02:14 PM rigid: i'd totally use banana/allwinner if the patches would be better, but the community was too small last I looked (few years ago)
02:15 PM rigid: although iirc I saw some stuff in the mainline kernel even. hm...
02:17 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256803971669780.html
02:17 PM CaptHindsight: $25.37
02:17 PM rigid: can I visualize a lathe somehow? spindle moving x and y. looking down, moving up/down. A-Axis is a stepper lathe rotating around the X axis & parallel to it
02:17 PM CaptHindsight: there are some lathe sims
02:18 PM rigid: not found
02:18 PM roycroft: lathe axes are x and z, not x and y
02:21 PM solarwind: Wow really?
02:21 PM solarwind: I did not know that
02:21 PM CaptHindsight: do you want to run a lathe sim or visualize a lathe? https://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/vismach.html
02:22 PM roycroft: think about it, solarwind
02:22 PM roycroft: the spindle runs along the length of the lathe
02:22 PM roycroft: the spindle axis is the z axis
02:23 PM CaptHindsight: you can use XY on a lathe, it might confuse others though
02:23 PM roycroft: if you have a milling table attached to the carriage you have x, y, and z on the lathe
02:23 PM solarwind: I guess I should relabel my G code generator program
02:23 PM solarwind: never thought about it that way
02:25 PM CaptHindsight: or live tooling
02:25 PM JT-Cave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=17q5VaMiPA0
02:25 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHXttRzz3Yc
02:27 PM CaptHindsight: 5 axis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iePbcRamsAk
02:33 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: vismach is what I've been looking for. i've seen it before and knew there was something
02:33 PM rigid: thank you
02:42 PM CaptHindsight: https://pine64.com/product/star64-model-a-8gb-single-board-computer/
02:52 PM CaptHindsight: solarwind: https://www.cncmasters.com/what-is-a-cnc-lathe-machine-the-ultimate-guide/#What_are_the_Primary_Axes_on_a_CNC_Lathe
02:54 PM CaptHindsight: https://mellowpine.com/blog/lathe-axis/
03:13 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: it's not really a cnc lathe
03:14 PM rigid: well somehow it is. it's a XYZ H-CNC that has a lathe-mount connected to a stepper motor
03:16 PM rigid: so, no B axis and the C axis is parallel to Y
03:16 PM CaptHindsight: the name of the axis only matters to the g-code and CAM
03:17 PM CaptHindsight: this way, that way, perpendicular to this or that etc
03:19 PM roycroft: axis naming is not specific to cnc machines - it's the same regardless of how the machine is controlled
03:23 PM Tom_L: there is generally an understood naming convention though
03:28 PM roycroft: correct
03:29 PM roycroft: and it's the same convention with milling machines and lathes
03:29 PM roycroft: the coordinate system is oriented with the primary spindle axis being z
03:51 PM rigid: hm, so I guess there is no ready way to network-bridge between the UIs and the control-threads
03:52 PM rigid: just to make sure I didn't miss some nifty script
03:52 PM CaptHindsight: NML
03:52 PM CaptHindsight: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?EMC_Components
03:54 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: is the emcsvr transparent to the remote UI? or am I limited to special apps that support NML?
03:54 PM roycroft: well i had a productive lunch break today
03:54 PM roycroft: i installed a trial version of vectric vcarve pro, and was able to easily generate svg files that my shaper origin likes
03:55 PM roycroft: i guess that means it was a $700 lunch, but i was planning on buying the software eventually anyway for my cnc router
03:59 PM Tom_L: heh
04:00 PM Unterhaus_: the wayback machine is so slow it reminds me of the days where someone had to physically mount a tape for you to run your program
04:00 PM Tom_L: better than a mixed up pile of punch cards
04:01 PM roycroft: in the early early days of nc, the punch cards were made of wood or tin, and they were tied together with strings to keep them in order
04:01 PM Unterhaus_: I never dropped any of my punch card decks
04:01 PM Unterhaus_ is now known as Unterhausen
04:01 PM roycroft: nor i, but i did not handle punch card decks often
04:02 PM Unterhausen: I had one that might have been 2" thick, for carbon fiber designs
04:02 PM roycroft: when i was dealing with punch cards, i would fill out coding sheets that would be handed to the card punch operators, who would generate the decks that were humbly submitted to the ibm priests in the white lab jackets in the sanctuary, who would offer them to the mainframe
04:03 PM roycroft: mere coders were not entrusted to touch any of the hardware
04:03 PM Tom_L: of couse not.. that would make the others' jobs insignificant
04:04 PM Unterhausen: we could run our own programs, best to do it late at night
04:04 PM Unterhausen: one of my friends was a cs major, they had unlimited cpu time
04:04 PM Unterhausen: so I used their account
04:05 PM Unterhausen: but I did see my differential equations professor walking to the compute center with a tray with a card deck in it. Hate to think about dropping that program
04:06 PM Unterhausen: there was a command to get the guy at the computer center to load the tape with your program on it. Forget exactly how it worked, but you definitely had to wait 10 minutes
04:07 PM roycroft: i first worked with a teletype terminal with a paper tape punch/reader connected via an acoustic modem to a pdp-6 on another campus in the next town
04:07 PM roycroft: i learned basic on that setup
04:07 PM roycroft: then i moved on to learning fortran, then cobol, on an ibm 360 mainframe, where my user interface was the coding sheets and the greenbar printouts i'd get a couple days later
04:07 PM roycroft: when i got to use my first glass tty i was in heaven
04:07 PM Unterhausen: I had the cheap commodore
04:08 PM Unterhausen: that was fun even though I already learned fortran at school
04:08 PM roycroft: my first personally owned computer was an atari st
04:08 PM XXCoder: my mom grew up with huge tty machine
04:08 PM roycroft: followed soon thereafter with an ibm at, on which i ran xenix
04:08 PM XXCoder: sadly my grandparent gave it away when mom moved away
04:08 PM roycroft: and took a full usenet feed
04:09 PM XXCoder: wanted to donate it to deaf history mestium.
04:09 PM roycroft: yeah, that would have been a good item for the museum
04:09 PM rigid: roycroft: what's wrong with svg's from inkscape for the shaper origin?
04:11 PM roycroft: i use cad software to do my designs
04:11 PM roycroft: i don't use inkscape or ai for drawing - just for the svg conversion
04:11 PM roycroft: and i don't get good conversions from either
04:12 PM roycroft: i could probably learn how to make most of my drawings in inkscape, but it would be far more tedious than using proper cad software
04:12 PM rigid: ah
04:12 PM roycroft: but i really have been planning on getting vectric vcarve pro
04:12 PM rigid: i thought about using freecad or openscad
04:12 PM roycroft: solidcam is ok, and when i'm generating gcode for a milling machine, i'll probably use it
04:13 PM rigid: apart from python
04:13 PM roycroft: but the vectric software is designed for cnc routers, and it really excels at that
04:13 PM roycroft: it comes with a linuxcnc profile, btw
04:13 PM roycroft: i've used openscad a bit, and that is another option
04:16 PM roycroft: the non-pro version of vcarve is $349, so that might be a place to start
04:16 PM roycroft: iirc their upgrades are no-penalty
04:16 PM roycroft: so i just pay the difference
04:20 PM rigid: hm, I don't quite get NML
04:20 PM JT-Shop: https://youtu.be/Y-GGxY0YGe8?t=361
04:26 PM Tom_L: woops
04:27 PM _unreal_: there I just ordered my arduino uno R4
04:41 PM * roycroft is close to ordering his front bumper kit
04:45 PM * travis_farmer is close to eating a sausage and bacon pizza :-)
04:47 PM _unreal_: well stop rear ending people and you wont need to order a front bumper kid :) LOL
04:48 PM roycroft: i'm getting it so i can mount my winch in the front of the pickup
04:49 PM travis_farmer: yeah, having the winch sitting on the passenger side floor, tends to be a bit useless ;-)
04:49 PM roycroft: it's set up to hitch mount now, and i only have a hitch receiver in the back
04:49 PM roycroft: i've used it that way, but it's much better to have it in the front
05:02 PM XXCoder: _unreal_: thats just bad assumation
05:05 PM CaptHindsight: rigid: LCNC started out in the 90's when CNC machines were not controlled over a network, NML messaging was chosen as a messaging system and still has not been replaced
05:05 PM CaptHindsight: https://github.com/auto-mation-assist/LinuxCnc-OpenDDS-Work
05:06 PM CaptHindsight: someone ^^ started looking into using OpenDDS but hasn't done much yet
05:08 PM rigid: CaptHindsight: i'd be fine with NML if I could somehow bridge it over a socket/pipe or something. but it seems deeply embedded
05:09 PM rigid: since the abstraction layer already seems to exist commonly. I thought it's an outdated, bitrotten part of linuxcnc
05:10 PM CaptHindsight: machinekit forked LCNC and started using ZeroMQ
05:11 PM CaptHindsight: yes it's deep in there and that's why it's a major task to bring it up to something more modern
05:12 PM CaptHindsight: NML is long in the tooth and sends a ton of data for each message
05:14 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/el/isd/cs/nml-tutorial.pdf
05:15 PM CaptHindsight: Johannes Fassotte could use some help if you are interested (automationassist)
05:16 PM CaptHindsight: rigid: what machinekit used https://machinekoder.com/machinetalk-explained-part-3-technologies/
05:18 PM CaptHindsight: ROS2 uses DDS https://docs.ros.org/en/iron/Installation/DDS-Implementations.html
05:19 PM CaptHindsight: https://opendds.org/
05:19 PM roycroft: this nml document you point to claims that nml is a neutral langue, but nowhere in the document do i find a discussion of preferred pronouns
05:19 PM * roycroft is confused
05:24 PM _unreal_: roycroft, ditto
05:25 PM _unreal_: Oh so I also just got 3 golf cart chargers
05:25 PM _unreal_: 2 are transformer based. one is a AC/DC
05:25 PM _unreal_: not sure if the AC/DC one is useful or not
05:26 PM _unreal_: they are all ether 36v or 48v I forget
05:27 PM _unreal_: I hate to say it but the ad/dc one is likely useless. because its a smart golf cart charger. has built in BT features for connecting to a phone app. to give status on the battery etc.....
05:27 PM _unreal_: I dont think it will work as a straight PSU :(
05:27 PM _unreal_: for a cnc machine
05:28 PM CloudEvil: I mean, the control of the PSU is generally very basic
05:30 PM _unreal_: CloudEvil, are you talking to me?
05:31 PM roycroft: i thought that ac/dc stuff was banned in florida now
05:32 PM roycroft: someone is coming by to get my old welder
05:33 PM roycroft: since i removed the gas tank and the solid core wire, i threw an old spool of flux core in it for demo purposes
05:33 PM roycroft: and i just went to do a test weld to make sure it's set up ok
05:33 PM roycroft: i forgot how much i dislike flux core welding
05:33 PM Tom_L: yup, i hate the spatter
05:33 PM roycroft: exactly
05:34 PM roycroft: it went everywhere
05:34 PM Tom_L: don't you reverse polarity also?
05:34 PM roycroft: yes
05:34 PM Tom_L: i forget
05:34 PM roycroft: i had to set to dcen for flux core
05:34 PM roycroft: but that's easy to do
05:34 PM Tom_L: i used some on an outside project where it was windy
05:34 PM roycroft: my new machine is from harbor freight
05:34 PM roycroft: it's fairly basic, and i think it was a good value for me
05:35 PM roycroft: but i found it has a feature that many much more expensive gmaw welders don't (and that a lot of folks complain about): pre-flow and post-flow gas
05:35 PM roycroft: the pre-flow is only a fraction of a second, but it's enough to displace the oxygen in front of the wire
05:35 PM roycroft: post-flow is about 2-3 seconds, which is really nice
05:36 PM roycroft: i have that on my gtaw welder, where it's essential
05:36 PM roycroft: but on a gmaw welder it can help a lot too
05:37 PM roycroft: people complain that it wastes gas
05:37 PM roycroft: in my view the tiny amount of extra gas it consumes is more than offset by the added oxygen protection it provides
05:38 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: NML predates LGBTQWERTY
05:39 PM roycroft: well it obviously needs a dei update
05:39 PM roycroft: someone should write a grant for that
05:39 PM CaptHindsight: hell Murphy Brown had just had a child out of wedlock on TV
05:40 PM roycroft: us intelligence claim that the plane that blowed up yesterday was no accident
05:40 PM roycroft: and it blowed up real good before it crashed
05:40 PM CloudEvil: Intactish planes under miscontrol don't come down like that.
05:41 PM CloudEvil: You need the whole tail to fall off pretty much for them to do that fluttery thing.
05:41 PM CaptHindsight: https://twitter.com/BeijingPalmer/status/1694437103310954856 "putin swearing a solemn oath to prigozhin that no harm would come to him on russian soil"
05:41 PM roycroft: and he kept his word
05:42 PM roycroft: no harm came to him on russian soil
05:42 PM roycroft: harm came to him in russian air
05:42 PM CaptHindsight: the last laugh will be when they fin 2kg of soil in prigozhin's pants pocket
05:42 PM CaptHindsight: fin/find
05:42 PM CloudEvil: Assuming he was actually on the plane and is not now in Africa.
05:42 PM CaptHindsight: "Do I lie?"
05:43 PM roycroft: i think he's on that island with jack kennedy, jim morrison, janis joplin, et al
05:43 PM _unreal_: roycroft, I have no idea what you mean by ac/dc banned? and florida
05:43 PM _unreal_: I am not making the connection
05:44 PM roycroft: probably best that i not explain it
05:44 PM roycroft: let's just move on
05:44 PM roycroft: there's nothing to see here
05:44 PM roycroft: these are not the puns you've been looking for
05:48 PM Tom_L: joplin would be the main attraction
05:49 PM Tom_L: or they're all on the 'crazy train'
05:55 PM roycroft: i wonder of mama cass is there too
05:57 PM CaptHindsight: I don't know but Russians sure seem to be accident prone
05:57 PM Tom_L: it's their go to 'out'
05:58 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.wunderground.com/weather/us/il/chicago down to 91 (feels like 135)
05:58 PM XXCoder: windows there is infamous
05:59 PM Tom_L: 101
05:59 PM CaptHindsight: and only 76F tomorrow
05:59 PM Tom_L: we're supposed to get a break soon
06:00 PM CaptHindsight: the cold front is about 30 miles north of me
06:00 PM XXCoder: weekend is going to be hot at 90f peak. then rain monday tues
06:02 PM Tom_L: been 23 days over 100 this year here
06:03 PM Tom_L: a weeks worth of consecutive days at least
06:03 PM CaptHindsight: today was our first day this year to reach 100F
06:03 PM CaptHindsight: we have had pretty mild weather this summer
06:04 PM Tom_L: odd enough i think we've had plenty of rain
06:05 PM Tom_L: crops look good anyway
06:07 PM Tom_L: looks like our break starts saturday
06:07 PM Tom_L: another 102 tomorrow
06:11 PM _unreal_: Just got more PLC hardware
06:11 PM _unreal_: I also just got 2 more inverters
06:11 PM _unreal_: if anyone is looking for a 3 phase motor driver
06:51 PM Loetmichel: Man, i found a new reason to complain aboug getting old. That pic is from 2009. Gray as an arctic fox for more than decade now: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9080&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
06:56 PM _unreal_: ugh... always complaining about not being young and beautiful anymore. ;)
06:57 PM Loetmichel: i doubt i was EVER "beautiful"
06:58 PM Loetmichel: but yeah, if you turn 50+ and wake up with no aches and pains you're probably dead (as they say).
06:59 PM _unreal_: pulling everything out of this controller box. I'm going to use it as the new controller box for the new cnc build cabinet for controllers
06:59 PM XXCoder: I guess it means im been over 50 since I was 30
06:59 PM _unreal_: nifty, omron sysmac cp1e
07:00 PM _unreal_: WOW its not cheap
07:31 PM _unreal_: just got more or less everything removed from that box
07:31 PM _unreal_: its going to be nice
08:59 PM solarwind: https://www.kijiji.ca/v-tool-other/mississauga-peel-region/gear-pump/1659792733 $20, claims "bronze casting"
09:00 PM solarwind: if so, the bronze alone is worth more than $20 right?
09:01 PM XXCoder: https://media.kijiji.ca/api/v1/ca-prod-fsbo-ads/images/a5/a5b45998-bfce-4319-8eea-f36e0848dd6d?rule=kijijica-640-webp
09:01 PM XXCoder: eh cant really tell
09:01 PM solarwind: I mean, bronze is expensive
09:01 PM solarwind: I've never seen a bronze gearbox
09:02 PM solarwind: They're all really poor quality cast aluminum
09:09 PM XXCoder: might be very old
09:13 PM Tom_L: i have an old one of those and it is bronze
09:14 PM Tom_L: steel gears
09:15 PM Tom_L: https://www.dultmeier.com/catalog/0.851.868.4490
09:15 PM Tom_L: rather expensive new