#linuxcnc Logs

Aug 02 2023

12:04 AM thorhian[m]: Anyone here know where I can get a decent rotary encoder rigid tapping while also handling 10,000 RPM speeds on the spindle (not while tapping of course)?
12:15 AM thorhian[m]: *for rigid tapping
01:31 AM Deejay: moin
02:26 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
02:46 AM travis_farmer: Morning :coffee:
03:09 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
03:26 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
03:30 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
03:45 AM Guest68: hi
04:38 AM Tom_L: morning
04:54 AM JT-Cave: morning
04:55 AM JT-Cave: Tom_L, there must be a way to turn off kernel updates I know you can do it in synaptic package manager
05:21 AM Chris-D: Hi! I asked yesterday why my 7i76e expansion port pins do not react to a "set hm2_7i76e.0.gpio.017.out 1" after "setp hm2_7i76e.0.gpio.017.is_output 1".
05:23 AM Chris-D: I found the (stupid) solution. I haven't registered the write function of hostmot2 with "addf hm2_7i76e.0.write servo-thread". After successfully setting the pins when have a running GUI I checked its hal file and there it was ... -_-
05:24 AM Chris-D: Now all works 8)
05:24 AM Chris-D: Ok, this only for others to remember.
06:05 AM JT-Cave: why are you messing with the gpio on a 7i76e?
06:05 AM JT-Cave: rooster just crowed
06:08 AM jpa-: why not?
06:11 AM JT-Cave: they already have a function for the card I/O and encoder
06:17 AM jpa-: hmm, i thought the isolated i/o on 7i76e was accessed through the .gpio hal pins
06:28 AM JT-Cave: oh yea I forgot the 7i76e does not have input something like the rest
06:28 AM JT-Cave: I had to look and refresh a few brain cells
06:35 AM Tom_L: JT-Cave, mystery solved at least
06:36 AM JT-Cave: how so?
06:40 AM Tom_L: bootloader & kernel are included in rpi updates
06:44 AM Lcvette[m]: morning
06:44 AM JT-Cave: so rpi updates will change from 32 to 64 and you have no option to keep 32?
06:44 AM Tom_L: not that i have found yet
06:46 AM JT-Cave: so should we drop 32 bit and just build 64 bit?
06:46 AM Tom_L: i dunno, i just thought it was odd
06:46 AM Tom_L: 10 isn't supported anyway because of that python3 package
06:47 AM Tom_L: python3-pyqt5
06:51 AM Tom_L: can't seem to find much on the topic
06:51 AM Tom_L: found alot that wanted it to update but didn't properly
06:54 AM Tom_L: funny thing is when it was updateing i was watching and all the packages were armhf
06:55 AM Tom_L: until it got to the kernel
07:00 AM Tom_L: JT-Cave, i can keep building for both now that i know not to update bullseye
07:01 AM Tom_L: it's your call
07:01 AM JT-Cave: ok, that's fine with me
07:01 AM JT-Cave: just sucks that rpi fucks up something like that
07:01 AM Tom_L: an odd one for sure
07:02 AM Tom_L: you may make a note that 10 isn't supported
07:04 AM JT-Cave: ok, but that's just for the rpi?
07:04 AM Tom_L: yes
07:04 AM Tom_L: because python3-pyqt5 has no update candidate
07:05 AM Tom_L: unless you can find a way around that
07:07 AM Tom_L: https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=257914
07:07 AM Tom_L: haven't read it yet
07:11 AM Tom_L: another day of record pushing temps here
07:12 AM XXCoder: this year is certainly record busting number of hot records
07:12 AM XXCoder: july 3 and 4 both was hottest day ever in all recorded history
07:13 AM XXCoder: im sure there was more days like that in july
07:15 AM Tom_L: JT-Cave, just for kicks you should DL one of the 32bit 2023 dated images of bullseye and check the kernel version first then see if the armhf deb will install on it
07:15 AM Tom_L: watching the update everything was armhf until the kernel
07:16 AM Tom_L: if that works then we really have a bastard rpi OS
07:17 AM JT-Cave: I have one I downloaded the other day
07:17 AM JT-Cave: hmm I need to find a usb to micro sd thingy
07:22 AM Tom_L: i'd be curious
07:39 AM JT-Cave: ok
08:05 AM JT-Cave: burning the image now
08:14 AM bjorkintosh: JT-Shop, https://imgur.com/a/m60FQMj
08:14 AM bjorkintosh: this delay, brought to me by Real Life (Tm)
09:30 AM JT-Cave: Tom_L, no update or anything and the 32 bit rpi is aarch64
09:33 AM JT-Cave: debian version 10.03
09:39 AM JT-Cave: and mesact won't run on 10 due to the pyqt version is too old
09:48 AM JT-Cave: Tom_L, so if the 32 bit rpi os is now made from unobtainum I think we should just drop it and only build the 64 bit version of mesact for the rpi
09:59 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:00 AM JT-Shop: bjorkintosh, I had in mind the timers would simulate the outputs with a delay to simulate actual movement... did you try and run the program?
10:03 AM JT-Shop: bjorkintosh, here is a program I wrote the other day for a machine https://gnipsel.com/files/foxy/Double%20Chucker.ckp
10:03 AM bjorkintosh: JT-Shop, yeah I did. But, I think my limited knowledge interfered with my program.
10:04 AM JT-Shop: so rung two would read if ds10 is equal to 10 and t1 copy 20 to ds10
10:05 AM JT-Shop: rung 7 would be if ds10 is equal to 10 run timer t1
10:06 AM JT-Shop: but it seems like it would work now that I stare at it lol
10:07 AM JT-Shop: in rung 2 I would branch off of the run to see if t1 has timed out so it only looks for that when ds10 is equal to 10
10:07 AM JT-Shop: if that makes sense
10:08 AM bjorkintosh: I think my version is not idiomatic.
10:09 AM JT-Shop: quite possible...
10:10 AM bjorkintosh: hmm. I need to study your program a bit.
10:10 AM JT-Shop: to see if a timer has timed out simply use -|T1|- if you need to see if some amount of time is passed use TD
10:11 AM bjorkintosh: so for instance, I don't know why one would use the arrows instead of a switch.
10:11 AM JT-Shop: the machine is quite simple, if set to hand it steps through each step one at a time when you press start
10:11 AM bjorkintosh: you know, the ]^[ bits.
10:11 AM JT-Shop: that's to make sure it only happens once
10:11 AM bjorkintosh: oh.
10:12 AM JT-Shop: so some clever operator takes a piece of wood and jams it into the start button we out smart him/her
10:12 AM bjorkintosh: clever.
10:12 AM JT-Shop: if drill is on then the right side goes in and out and a little deeper each step
10:13 AM JT-Shop: if auto is set then the machine runs one whole cycle and if the hopper is loaded it runs again
10:13 AM JT-Shop: if the hopper is not loaded then it stops after one cycle
10:17 AM bjorkintosh: nice.
10:17 AM bjorkintosh: I'm going to study it for a few minutes and reason through it myself.
10:18 AM bjorkintosh: ladder logic doesn't have a lot to it, but if you don't know why it's composed the way it is, then it's just gibberish.
10:18 AM JT-Shop: yup
10:18 AM JT-Shop: that's why I added a lot of comments for you
10:18 AM JT-Shop: I normally wouldn't comment that much :)
10:20 AM bjorkintosh: oh thank you!
10:34 AM thorhian[m]: zincboy_ca_on Do you know if a 2500 PPR encoder is good enough for rigid tapping?
10:39 AM thorhian[m]: Just trying to figure out how much I need to spend to get a 10000 RPM capable encoder for a future spindle upgrade.
10:39 AM zincboy_ca_on[m]: Yes. Even 1000ppr should be fine. My spindle has a 1024ppr encoder and it works fine. To know if you have enough lines, you need to look at your tapping RPM and your servo period.
10:41 AM thorhian[m]: Based on the fact that I'm still dealing with a 1.8KW spindle, tapping speed will likely be under 1000 RPM lol, but I'm not really sure. Eventually I do plan on upgrading the motor, and with how expensive these encoders are, I'd hope to future proof for under 2000 RPM at least for smaller tap sizes (M5 and under) in aluminum.
10:42 AM thorhian[m]: In terms of servo period, I haven't tuned that at all on my machine other than getting it to work. I'll need to look at what I have it set to. The underpowered pi4 (literallh, I cannot get that undervoltage warning to go away) I have isn't doing me any favors.
10:48 AM thorhian[m]: Is there any documentation on determining a decent servo period and line count for synchhronized spindle motion? I can't seem to find any in the LCNC docs.
10:50 AM pcw---home: Servo thread period is nominally 1 ms, normally there is not much reason to change this
10:52 AM pcw---home: people have made do with 1 count/turn on the spindle (if you have very good spindle speed control)
10:52 AM travis_farmer: i did a bad bad thing... bought a new (to me) server computer to replace my current aging one... more storage capacity, more memory... i hope it doesn't bite me in the butt... :-/
10:55 AM thorhian[m]: Thanks pcw. Reading the docs it seems my 7i76 spindle encoder input is checked at a 10MHz frequency, and a 2500 PPR encoder spinning at 10,000 RPM will be pushing under 420 KHz, and even at 3000 RPM that drops down to about 125 KHz. That seems to be plenty of resolution by my intuition for rigid tapping, but my intuition isn't very informed, and I don't know how the servo period relates exactly to the conversation.
10:57 AM pcw---home: You may be limited by the encoder maximum output frequency at 10K RPM (though unless you use it to monitor RPM you may not care if it doest work at high speeds)
10:58 AM pcw---home: the servo period won't make much difference
11:00 AM thorhian[m]: https://ecatalog.dynapar.com/downloads/H20_DS_701879_0002.pdf The encoder I'm looking at has a 100 KHz frequency response and is rated for 10000 RPM operation.
11:01 AM thorhian[m]: So it would be limited.
11:01 AM thorhian[m]: Maybe?
11:06 AM pcw---home: Yes it would be close (100 KHz is 400K counts/sec)
11:35 AM thorhian[m]: Wait, 400K counts/sec? Is that because there are multiple channels?
11:36 AM Lcvette[m]: A Rising Edge + A Falling Edge + B Rising Edge + B Falling Edge
11:36 AM pcw---home: Yes 100 KHz on A or B means a 400 KHz quadrature count rate (because both edges of A and B are counted)
11:37 AM Lcvette[m]: 😄
11:38 AM Lcvette[m]: PCW.. you complete me..lol
11:39 AM thorhian[m]: I see, so my rpm reading at 10K rpm would likely wsork, but be kind of fuzzy in terms of accuracy. Maybe I should be looking for something that can handle 12K rpm so im not pushing the encoder.
11:39 AM thorhian[m]: Or just lower the ppr.
11:39 AM Lcvette[m]: yup
11:41 AM thorhian[m]: pcw mentioned that one pulse per rotation is enough for some to get by for rigid tapping, but what would be the ideal (withing reason), especially to help prevent taps from breaking.
11:43 AM Lcvette[m]: that is extremely relative
11:43 AM thorhian[m]: Whats the relation then?
11:43 AM Lcvette[m]: if your spindle motor drive is very stable under varying loads a single pulse would work
11:43 AM Lcvette[m]: if it fluctuates you need higher counts
11:45 AM Lcvette[m]: if you need 10k, maybe look for a encoder with a higher khz read capability
11:45 AM Lcvette[m]: but they stsart getting expensive
11:45 AM Lcvette[m]: either way you won't be rigid tapping at 10rpm
11:45 AM Lcvette[m]: s/10rpm/10k rpm/
11:46 AM thorhian[m]: So my plan for when I replace my spindle is to do a 3:1 belt ration between the spindle and the servo motor driving it, since the servo can only go up to 3000 RPM. The servo runs like butter based on my qualitative experience, but I'm guessing the belt ratio will be making things complicated. Also, yes, the plan is not to be rigid tapping at 10K lol. The encoder I've been looking at is already expensive lol, like $700. I can'
11:47 AM thorhian[m]: I can't seem to find anything like on automation direct that has anything above a 6K RPM rating, so I have to start looking at expensive brands.
11:48 AM Lcvette[m]: what size servo?
11:49 AM thorhian[m]: 1.8KW, can't remember dimensions off the top of my head.
11:50 AM Lcvette[m]: assume you plan on tapping small sizes only?
11:51 AM thorhian[m]: For rigid tapping I would only want to go up to M5 thread sizes. Anything above that would likely be a job for a thread mill.
11:53 AM thorhian[m]: I eventually want to get a hold of a 10K RPM servo motor (or slightly higher for overhead) and just drive it 1:1, but I can't do that yet. Problem is, it seems an encoder for this kind of speed is looking to cost a lot, and might be better invested in the new motor, which will have it's own encoder running in a 1:1 gear ration with the spindle.
11:53 AM zincboy_ca_on[m]: _Threading_ can be done with 1ppr. I don't think Tapping can. You need higher resolution as the spindle decelerates and reverses at the end of the operation.
11:54 AM zincboy_ca_on[m]: With 1ppr you would break taps very quickly unless you had a floating holder.
11:54 AM zincboy_ca_on[m]: I have rigid tapped 3/4nc on my machine 🙂
11:55 AM thorhian[m]: Yeah I imagine. I plan on using floating ones anyways, I don't want 1 ppr lol. Also, what kind of spindle motor do you have lol?
11:55 AM zincboy_ca_on[m]: 10hp, with a 4:1 reduction in low gear.
11:55 AM thorhian[m]: Yeah lol, that explains some things.
11:59 AM zincboy_ca_on[m]: I usually thread mill that size though. I just wanted to try it and had the tap handy. Quite the pucker moment when it first hits.
11:59 AM Lcvette[m]: I thread mill everything
11:59 AM Lcvette[m]: so much more reliable
12:00 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: Bigger stuff yes. I do a lot of M2 and M1.2. Forming taps are the way to go for those.
12:01 PM thorhian[m]: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804944676546.html That's the spindle I plan on buying to replace my green one lol, a true ATC spindle. This is the kind of motor I want to get, but I need something that runs in 220V lol https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256803584812595.html
12:01 PM Lcvette[m]: M1.5 😲 what you making
12:02 PM thorhian[m]: Just the encoder costs half the price of the new motor
12:02 PM Lcvette[m]: they have spindle servos good for 8k rom
12:02 PM Lcvette[m]: s/rom/rpm/
12:02 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: M1.2, not 1.5 🙂 Electronics enclosures for optical systems.
12:02 PM Lcvette[m]: that can be driven 1:1 and use the motor encoder
12:03 PM thorhian[m]: Lcvette, yes I know, hence why I just linked that motor.
12:03 PM Lcvette[m]: for 220v
12:03 PM Lcvette[m]: single phase
12:04 PM Lcvette[m]: most of those have a rigid tapping mode which puts the motor into position mode which is very helpful in changing the troque output
12:04 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: Those spindle motors are readily available in 220V up to about 3.7kW. I was looking at one for a lathe conversion but wanted 7.5kW and those aren't available in 220V.
12:05 PM Lcvette[m]: zincboy_ca_on: available in 220v 3ph, but not single phase
12:05 PM thorhian[m]: Where lol? All of the motors that are 2.2KW and above seem to be 3 phase only on their drives and 380V on aliexpress. Of course, im not great at finding stuff on Aliexpress lol.
12:05 PM Lcvette[m]: I run a 5.5kw
12:05 PM Lcvette[m]: go to the manuafacturer
12:06 PM Lcvette[m]: they can make many options for you
12:06 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-milling-spindle/milling-spindle-motor-and-inverter
12:06 PM thorhian[m]: Ah, so directly contact them.
12:06 PM thorhian[m]: If only they had a 10K or 12K option lol
12:07 PM Lcvette[m]: zincboy_ca_on: did you see my question to PCW and his reply for the index homing using spindle encoder input?
12:07 PM Lcvette[m]: said you can break up ABZ and use independently for XYZ
12:07 PM Lcvette[m]: 😄
12:09 PM thorhian[m]: Do you have a prefered manufacturer?
12:09 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: I didn't see that but I would expect that to be the case.
12:09 PM Lcvette[m]: I use Yuhai Motor COmpany
12:10 PM Lcvette[m]: they have treated me well and Ive not had any issues with their servos and spindle servos and have been running them for about 7 yearts now
12:10 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: Once you get to 10 or 12k rpm you usually want to go to an integrated spindle motor. Belt drives get really finicky at that speed and balance becomes so much more critical.
12:11 PM Lcvette[m]: looks like the automation technologies uses them also, or at least the same MK Drive
12:11 PM Lcvette[m]: zincboy_ca_on[m]: I concur, I just spent a week balancing mine
12:12 PM thorhian[m]: All of the integrated spindles I find are way too high in RPM and lack the torque and control that a servo spindle motor has, unless you are refering to direct coupling?
12:12 PM Lcvette[m]: Couldn’t load all end-to-end encrypted chats
12:13 PM thorhian[m]: Also, I thought the motor and spindle should be balanced already for the speeds they are rated at?
12:14 PM Lcvette[m]: assuming this is a smaller machine, I would likely lean towards a 24k rpm 3.5kw iso30 setup
12:14 PM Lcvette[m]: that 1.8kw with a 3:1 reduction is going to be gutless
12:14 PM thorhian[m]: 24K is just way too high though.
12:14 PM Lcvette[m]: for?
12:15 PM thorhian[m]: You have no low end torque on a 24K integrated spindle, milling steel or anything tougher would be a nightmare.
12:15 PM thorhian[m]: Also, I'
12:15 PM thorhian[m]: * Also, I'm not using ISO30
12:16 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: Steel cuts fine with the right tooling. You won't be using a 5" face mill, but with the right size bits your MRR will be just fine.
12:16 PM Lcvette[m]: if the machine is stiff it would cut steel
12:16 PM Lcvette[m]: ^^^agree
12:17 PM thorhian[m]: What about stainless or titanium?
12:17 PM Lcvette[m]: i use 1.8kw servos for my axis motors they are 6nm
12:17 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: Same.
12:17 PM thorhian[m]: Yeah my spindle servo is 6NM.
12:17 PM Lcvette[m]: you reduct that down to 2nm with a 1:3 over drive ratio
12:18 PM thorhian[m]: I'm aware.
12:18 PM roycroft: if your machine isn't stiff you can still cut steel, but you need small tooling, high spindle speed, and very light cuts
12:18 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: It is all about picking the right bit and machining strategy. HSM is the way to go.
12:18 PM Lcvette[m]: a 3.5kw iso/bt30 spindle will have good torque to that in comparison
12:18 PM Lcvette[m]: also the speed range is not 24k rpm only
12:18 PM Lcvette[m]: there is a min and max
12:19 PM roycroft: you're not going to make abom chips with a benchtop lathe
12:19 PM thorhian[m]: I know, but i thought anything below 10K on such a spindle would be gutless.
12:19 PM Lcvette[m]: typically you can turn those type spindles down
12:20 PM thorhian[m]: I'm well aware roycroft, and wrong machine.
12:20 PM Lcvette[m]: is this for a lathe or mill?
12:20 PM thorhian[m]: Mill.
12:22 PM thorhian[m]: Homemade, with parts that I'll be redesigning, like the spindle assembly so I can fill it with epoxy granite and fit it with a counterbalance. The column will come next for filling. Right now my frame is just a bunch of steel plates and weldments.
12:23 PM thorhian[m]: Old video, just to show the jank of my machine and why I'm going to be revisiting parts of it's structure: https://youtu.be/4h-M9gCyJMM
12:25 PM Lcvette[m]: Yeah id just put a 3.5kw direct unit on that and forgo rigid tapping
12:26 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: Your y axis ball screw is bent 🙂
12:27 PM thorhian[m]: Why do you say that?
12:27 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: Your Y axis motor is wobbling about when it is moving that axis.
12:28 PM thorhian[m]: Ah, yeah. I milled a new mount and used a better coupler and it's working much better now. Pretty sure the ballscrew isn't that out of wack.
12:28 PM Lcvette[m]: or your coupler is fubar
12:29 PM thorhian[m]: The coupler was terrible before, I have a much better one now lol.
12:30 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: You can find integrated motor spindles that have encoders built in. I have one and it would work for rigid tapping small threads (<=M5). You still have torque down low, you just need a sensored vector drive instead of the usual volts/hz crap drives they usually provide.
12:31 PM thorhian[m]: That just seems sad to me. You are probably right though.
12:31 PM thorhian[m]: I have never found one like that. Not even from people like mechatron lol.
12:33 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: It is a 14kW HSK63f air cooled spindle. Picked it up surplus for next to nothing and still haven't found a use for it.
12:33 PM thorhian[m]: XD That's a little much, and not a BT30 spindle that you usually find on aliexpress or ebay.
12:34 PM * Lcvette[m] uploaded an image: (58KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/xokhwjnIMebFEZNGaebwLyzw/image.png >
12:34 PM Lcvette[m]: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/3-5KW-3-7KW-24000rpm-ATC_227077573.html?spm=a2700.shop_plgr.41413.3.7aeb2e7dVwxXTg
12:34 PM Lcvette[m]: this spindle unit is at peak efficiency at 12k rpm
12:34 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: I am pretty sure I came across some like that in the past. Might be one of those things where you need to contact them. They can usually make what ever you want.
12:35 PM Lcvette[m]: do you NEED rigid tapping?
12:36 PM Lcvette[m]: or is this just something you want to be able to say hey i have a home built machine with rigid tapping
12:36 PM Lcvette[m]: nothign wrong with that if so
12:37 PM thorhian[m]: It isn't a need, but it's not a bragging thing either. More of a taps are cheaper from what i've seen and a learning kind of experience as well.
12:37 PM Lcvette[m]: i thread mill everything personally and have a full size vmc simply because a broken tap negates almost any speed difference between the two operations
12:38 PM thorhian[m]: I imagine thread mills are easier to get out of parts though, produce less scrap lol
12:38 PM Lcvette[m]: unless you are tapping thousands of holes
12:38 PM Lcvette[m]: thread mills don't break in holes like a tap
12:38 PM Lcvette[m]: and taps are not cheaper
12:39 PM Lcvette[m]: you don't use hand taps on a cnc machine unless you surely want to break them'
12:39 PM Lcvette[m]: form taps are ideal as zincboy stated
12:39 PM Lcvette[m]: especially for sizes to your M5 mention
12:39 PM Lcvette[m]: but they require oil lubrication
12:39 PM thorhian[m]: I know, but I have seen nicer helical flute taps that are significantly cheaper than a reputable threadmill, but I'm probably looking in the wrong places.
12:40 PM Lcvette[m]: taps have higher process reliability with oil verse water soluble coolants which present a whole new type of headache
12:40 PM thorhian[m]: Yeah no oil coolant thank you lol
12:40 PM Lcvette[m]: online carbide single point thread mills are very cheap and last years
12:41 PM Lcvette[m]: also a single thread mill can do multiple thread sizes and pitches
12:41 PM Lcvette[m]: ive had the same thread mills in holders now for 5 years and machine daily, they just last forever since the chip load is so small
12:42 PM Lcvette[m]: i did rigid tapping the first 4 months and promptly quite as breaking taps almost always resulted in more headaches than it solved
12:43 PM Lcvette[m]: that is my experience, but i was using water soluble coolants and attribute alot of the issues to that
12:44 PM Lcvette[m]: https://www.carbidetoolsource.com/single-form-thread-mills
12:44 PM Lcvette[m]: this place is excellent
12:44 PM Lcvette[m]: also this place below:
12:44 PM Lcvette[m]: https://www.onlinecarbide.com/sipithmi.html
12:45 PM thorhian[m]: I've bough endmills from onlinecarbide before. They seem to make good stuff.
12:45 PM Lcvette[m]: their endmills are ok, the thread mills and chamfer mills are fantastic
12:46 PM Lcvette[m]: I use YG1 for endmills for aluminum, the alupower series and they are the best
12:47 PM thorhian[m]: I plan on trying YG1 and Helical endmills down the line once I get things more dialed in.
12:47 PM * Lcvette[m] uploaded an image: (1183KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/rOhCdgqOinrfqzqKnCIMHdmC/image.png >
12:47 PM thorhian[m]: The three flute and coated endmill from online carbide I got has done a great job so far for me.
12:48 PM * Lcvette[m] uploaded an image: (775KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/KdeWtKJrRZddCwJWJArOquNK/image.png >
12:48 PM thorhian[m]: Nice.
12:48 PM Lcvette[m]: im not saying they won't cut, but im particular on the finishes i get
12:50 PM thorhian[m]: Are those poly-V belts?
12:50 PM Lcvette[m]: yes
12:50 PM Lcvette[m]: for the spindle kits i produce
12:50 PM thorhian[m]: Nice. What kind of spindle kits?
12:51 PM Lcvette[m]: https://smallshopconcepts.com/
12:52 PM thorhian[m]: Nice!
01:08 PM JT-Shop: Lcvette[m], that your shop?
01:36 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
01:47 PM Tom_L: busy morning
01:58 PM Lcvette[m]: JT-Shop: yup yup
01:58 PM JT-Shop: cool
01:58 PM Lcvette[m]: 😄
01:59 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, running a test on that os
01:59 PM JT-Shop: ok
02:00 PM Tom_L: all the packages i'm installing indicate armhf but the kernel is arm64, i'm going to try and install the armhf mesact deb
02:00 PM Tom_L: once i get a few things installed
02:02 PM Tom_L: ok so even though the kernel says aarch64 i _was_ able to install the mesact_armhf.deb and run it
02:02 PM Tom_L: so i think we may be ok with the bullseye image even though it shows 64bit
02:02 PM Tom_L: i will keep mine as a arm7 kernel and build that way
02:03 PM JT-Shop: I wonder if there is a difference in mesact for 32 and 64?
02:03 PM Tom_L: unless you'd rather just drop it
02:03 PM Tom_L: i have no idea
02:03 PM Tom_L: they're doing some screwy things but this test did work
02:04 PM Tom_L: however buster (10) will not work unless you can find a way to install python3-pyqt5 on it
02:04 PM JT-Shop: python3-pyqt5 on 10 is just a version or two old
02:04 PM Tom_L: old enough mesact won't build on it
02:05 PM Tom_L: or install
02:06 PM Tom_L: i posted a link about it this morning but didn't get a chance to read it
02:09 PM Tom_L: The problem with "python3-pyqt5" is that it is missing "QtWebEngineWidgets".....
02:10 PM Tom_L: From what I can tell, Qt 5.11.3 currently in the Raspbian 10 buster repo doesn't provide a package for the QtWebEngine component...
02:10 PM JT-Shop: there must be something else that I used that needed a newer pyqt
02:11 PM Tom_L: that was from that article
02:11 PM Tom_L: so i just booted buster and am going to copy the armhf deb over and try to install it
02:13 PM Tom_L: yeah i get that dependency error on install
02:13 PM Tom_L: 5.15.0
02:13 PM Tom_L: is required
02:14 PM Tom_L: and 5.11.3 is installed
02:18 PM Tom_L: https://pypi.org/project/PyQt5/
02:19 PM Tom_L: don't see any pre'built arm7 packages there, just source
02:21 PM Tom_L: due to that and the fact bullseye and bookworm are both releases now, i'd suggest dropping buster (10) support
02:21 PM Tom_L: but you can still maintain both 32 & 64 bit versions
02:21 PM JT-Shop: yep I see no reason to try and build for rpi 10 any more
02:22 PM Tom_L: as weird as it is, 32bit still installs on the updated (64) bullseye
02:24 PM Tom_L: you may want to update this to reflect that: https://www.gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/mesact/description.html#requirements
02:24 PM JT-Shop: ah yeah I've not copied the html to gnipsel yet, thanks for reminding me
02:25 PM Tom_L: :)
02:25 PM JT-Shop: and the documents are very short now :(
02:25 PM Tom_L: now hopefully i can keep these SD cards in order :)
02:26 PM JT-Shop: :)
02:26 PM Tom_L: they come with mmc adapters and i don't remove them until i want to boot one
02:32 PM JT-Shop: what is a mmc adapter?
02:33 PM Tom_L: from the mini ssd to the larger size format
02:33 PM Tom_L: early cards were mmc
02:33 PM Tom_L: limited format
02:33 PM Tom_L: micro to mini
02:34 PM JT-Shop: ah
02:34 PM Tom_L: Both come in different memory sizes as well. While MMCs can be used in a standard SD card slot, the latter cannot be used in a MMC slot.
02:34 PM Tom_L: sd has more available pins iirc
02:34 PM Tom_L: address lines
02:35 PM Tom_L: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vog3v.jpg
02:35 PM Tom_L: sp/address/data
02:36 PM Tom_L: CF came along first then mmc then sd i think
02:37 PM JT-Shop: I have a CF reader that we used at Revere on many machines
02:37 PM Tom_L: 105°F
02:38 PM travis_farmer: 75F here :-)
02:39 PM Tom_L: i have a usb thingie that reads them all
02:39 PM JT-Shop: tree rats are starting to thin down been a week since I caught the last one
02:40 PM Tom_L: been too hot to mow by the time i get back home
02:40 PM Tom_L: needs to be doen
02:41 PM travis_farmer: mow at midnight ;-)
02:47 PM roycroft: stop mowing
02:47 PM roycroft: get some goats
02:48 PM roycroft: or cows
02:58 PM Fabio[m]1: My question is off LCNC topic, but related to MESA cards... are they just glorified breakouts with a hardware layer in between (fpga)? Do they do any processing or have any memory/command queue. Is this the same regardless of interface type ethernet/usb/pci?
03:03 PM JT-Shop: it's very much lcnc related and really depends on the card your asking about...
03:07 PM Fabio[m]1: That might indicate how little I get this. Mesa cards are specfically made for linux CNC or they were used enough by it that Mesa released a specific product line?
03:07 PM Fabio[m]1: Lets limit it to 7i96s which I think is the low cost ethernet board I would likely use/buy.
03:07 PM JT-Shop: Mesa makes a lot of cards for different applications and some are for lcnc like the 7i96s
03:08 PM JT-Shop: so the 7i96s is not just a breakout board but a fpga controlled card but pcw---home would have a better explanation than I possible could
03:09 PM JT-Shop: you can flash the fpga with different firmware to use with different cards on the expansion slot for example
03:10 PM JT-Shop: you also have one smart serial channel on the 7i96s to connect any smart serial card
03:10 PM Fabio[m]1: I have used FPGAs and CPLDs for work. And in some of my use cases I think I could have just used a mesa card (completely unreleated to CNC). It is such a cool idea.
03:10 PM Fabio[m]1: Smart serial?
03:11 PM JT-Shop: yup, plug it in and it shows up :)
03:12 PM Tom_L: DSS... Damn smart serial
03:13 PM Fabio[m]1: Interesting - am I right in thiking 7i96s is the cnc entry level for ethernet? Why would I go higher tier? for more encoders etc?
03:13 PM Tom_L: for more io expansion or functionality
03:13 PM Tom_L: that card was designed to support a small mill etc as is
03:14 PM JT-Shop: well you could add an encoder card to the 7i96s for steppers it does work well
03:14 PM Tom_L: add things like pendants etc and you may need more io
03:14 PM JT-Shop: if you have steppers with encoders a 7i95T is a better choice
03:15 PM JT-Shop: https://mesaus.com/product/7i95t/
03:15 PM JT-Shop: https://mesaus.com/product/7i96s/
03:15 PM JT-Shop: shameless plug of my store :)
03:15 PM Tom_L: pfft
03:19 PM Fabio[m]1: I have inkjet use cases- I certainly will!
03:19 PM Fabio[m]1: I am UK based, wheres the best place in that case?
03:19 PM Fabio[m]1: Encoders are from a work thing, linear encoders on all axis
03:20 PM JT-Shop: eu surplus may be more cost effective than buying from me but you should check both costs
03:21 PM Tom_L: https://store.mesanet.com/international-dealers
03:40 PM thorhian[m]: Sorry JT, I always just buy from Mesa themselves/
03:40 PM thorhian[m]: s///./
03:58 PM Fabio[m]1: Is there any second hand market around for cards?
03:59 PM Fabio[m]1: As in do they come up grequently
04:09 PM roycroft: there used to be
04:10 PM roycroft: and on the second hand market they sold for more than list price
04:11 PM XXCoder: frpa crush wasnt fun
04:11 PM JT-Shop: hmm time to charge the deer feeder battery the clock was 20 some odd minutes slow
04:11 PM JT-Shop: and time to charge the ebike
04:19 PM JT-Shop: mmmm burgers on the grill tonight
04:21 PM roycroft: we're going to the bier stein for dinner tonight
04:21 PM roycroft: so beer will be on the menu, for sure
04:22 PM JT-Shop: yummy
04:46 PM JT-Shop: hmm I heard a truck on the road and thought it might be Hank delivering the propane
04:50 PM roycroft: yeeee-up
05:06 PM Fabio[m]1: I wonder if that is why the price in EUR is higher than the USD, or is that just a normal price?
05:07 PM Fabio[m]1: On a trip to us in next couple of weeks, if I thought I could get thorugh security I would buy it then 😄
05:07 PM JT-Shop: he has a lot more cost in shipping to him and customs
05:08 PM JT-Shop: a lot of folks carry the boards back with them on planes
05:09 PM Fabio[m]1: Do they? Hmm
05:09 PM JT-Shop: yup
05:11 PM JT-Shop: I've sent boards to hotels where customers are staying while here in the us
05:13 PM Tom_L: thermometer says 110°F
05:13 PM Fabio[m]1: That could save me a ton, might do that then! This might be a silly question but how is a VFD different to an AC servo drive? Are they interchangeable
05:13 PM JT-Shop: wow
05:13 PM JT-Shop: 88°F here
05:14 PM JT-Shop: a VFD drives a normal motor and a servo drive drives a servo
05:14 PM Tom_L: official reports 106°F
05:17 PM Fabio[m]1: i feel like that isnt all..
05:17 PM JT-Shop: that was the condensed version
05:18 PM Tom_L: vfd are 3phase aren't they?
05:18 PM JT-Shop: 3 phase out yes
05:18 PM Tom_L: servo may or may not be and could be AC or DC
05:18 PM JT-Shop: some are single phase in
05:18 PM Tom_L: right
05:18 PM thorhian[m]: An AC servo kind of is a VFD, but with extra hardware that can handle the encoder input.
05:18 PM Fabio[m]1: yeah that is maybe it, the feedback type is dif?
05:19 PM Fabio[m]1: got some servos and drives banging around wndering if I could do something useful with them
05:19 PM thorhian[m]: What kind of servos and drives?
05:20 PM Fabio[m]1: ac kind - will dig out the numbers
05:22 PM thorhian[m]: I know a lot of modern AC servos are also PMAC motors, and plain VFDs are usually used to drive more typical AC induction motors, so I wonder if there is any considerations that need to made between the two.
05:22 PM Fabio[m]1: Oh right - I just rpped them from an old SLM metal machine
05:26 PM Fabio[m]1: Yaskawa SGD7S-2R8A00A 0.4KW Servo Drive
06:21 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: There are details in the programming of the motor model in the drive that make the differences between a AC servo drive and a VFD. Some VFDs can be used to drive a servo motor but will typically need advanced parameter setup and an encoder feedback input card. Servo drives technically can be used to drive an induction motor but not usually in practice. The programming assumes encoder feedback and the motor model is baked into the
06:21 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: drive.
06:22 PM zincboy_ca_on[m]: I run the spindle motor on my mill using a VFD with an encoder. The motor was originally designed to be driven by more of a servo drive system. V/Hz mode does not work at all and the only way to get it to go is to use encoder feedback. Works fine like that.
07:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I have an even older Yaskawa SGDA analog servo drive and motor that is stuck in some test mode and has to be programmed via a DOS application over serial. So far I haven't been able to talk to it with Freedos.
07:23 PM XXCoder: cant do it from virtual machine?
07:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I installed freedos on it's own 32b x86 PC
07:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: bits are moving out of the PC serial port but I haven't seen any response from the drive yet
07:26 PM XXCoder: I saw there is that new 386 dx device. yes new lol
07:26 PM XXCoder: if you need device that old
07:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: in still have some older PC's from the late 90's
07:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: AMD and a few VIA mini-itx boards
07:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 🔲
07:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Jose Ignacio Romero: ^^
09:04 PM woodworks[m] is now known as woodworks_0[m]
11:42 PM Unterhaus__ is now known as Unterhausen
11:57 PM solarwind: CaptHindsight[m] same here
11:58 PM solarwind: On another note, I never realized how good my Optrel Crystal 2 (PAPR) helmet is
11:58 PM solarwind: a friend gave me his ESAB welding helmet from work which he uses every day on the job and wow it's complete garbage
11:58 PM roycroft: i have a jackson, and i love it
11:59 PM solarwind: I'm going to spend the $1000 for the non-PAPR model since I don't need PAPR all the time, like for mild steel TIG