#linuxcnc Logs

Jun 29 2023

01:08 AM Deejay: moin
02:14 AM Unterhausen: built the kernel and some secure boot nonsense is stopping the kernel from running
02:14 AM Unterhausen: bad shim signature
02:16 AM Unterhausen: guess I could turn off secure boot
02:21 AM liaoque: Unterhausen: Aren't you sleeping
02:21 AM Unterhausen: should be
02:21 AM Unterhausen: so much fun building kernels
02:22 AM liaoque: versions
02:22 AM liaoque: ?
02:24 AM Unterhausen: 6.4 rt
02:25 AM Unterhausen: I think it built okay, I just have to get it signed
02:25 AM Unterhausen: but now I am going to sleep
02:25 AM liaoque: oh
02:26 AM liaoque: i use 4.9 xenomai
02:48 AM travis_farmer[m4: Morning ☕️
03:33 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
04:12 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
04:25 AM * travis_farmer[m4 just found the comp mqtt-publisher(.py) :-) could prove to be very useful, indeed :-)
04:42 AM Tom_L: morning
04:57 AM TheMightyFozz[m4: Is there any programs that tell you how long your gcode is ?
04:57 AM TheMightyFozz[m4: i mean in Km not time
05:48 AM JT-Cave: morning
06:11 AM TurBoss: morninh
06:39 AM CaptHindsight[m]: TheMightyFozz: font size and line space in mm x number of lines
06:40 AM CaptHindsight[m]: obviously g-code written 60 point type will be much larger than 12 point
06:41 AM travis_farmer[m4: i think he meant the length of the path from the gcode ;-)
06:41 AM CaptHindsight[m]: ok
06:41 AM CaptHindsight[m]: I'm not a mind reader
06:42 AM travis_farmer[m4: neither am i. that is just how i interpreted it
06:49 AM totalis[m] is now known as totalis19890[m]
06:51 AM Tom_L: measure the distance from the first line to the M2 M30 line
06:52 AM Tom_L: don't forget to count how many times you call a subroutine
06:53 AM Tom_L: no program i know of counts distance because typically the job is billed in spindle time amongst other factors
06:54 AM rmu: for a ballpark figure, use average feedrate and multiply it by machining time ;)
06:59 AM CloudEvil: Surely also the sensible way to measure would be cutter total distance, not spindle total distance
07:10 AM JT-Cave: which makes sense for tool wear
07:12 AM Tom_L: another 103°F day currently 74°F
07:13 AM Tom_L: you should also factor in pounds of flesh sacrificed in the making of the part
07:13 AM JT-Cave: 77°F to 101°F here
07:13 AM * Tom_L looks at Loetmichel
07:27 AM JT-Cave: time to break fast
08:04 AM TheMightyFozz[m4: Ha, yeah I want to know, if added up, what is the total movement length of my gcode. for example x10 y10 would be a linear movement of 14.1 units. taking into account the hypotenuse created by the two simultaneous movements. I have no idea how to do this for the zaxis... ..although its irrelevant. I don't know how to code and someone has to have already written something to do this.
08:05 AM TheMightyFozz[m4: I imagine it's used to calculate when to replace tools in factory's etc.
08:31 AM Loetmichel: Tom_L: a pount may be a bit much :)
08:31 AM Loetmichel: pound
08:43 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
08:56 AM JT-Cave: soooo eeeee it's muggy outside
08:57 AM travis_farmer[m4: 97% here, and my A/C in the house is still dead :-(
09:04 AM CaptHindsight[m]: how do you determine total cutter distance since it spins around an axis?
09:05 AM CaptHindsight[m]: the outer edges will have thousands of times more travel than the centers
09:07 AM CloudEvil: Typically maximum distance, but yes
09:17 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://youtu.be/0xOANlj_O88?t=77
09:18 AM CaptHindsight[m]: but I thought that Ford did this first https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oqeVLILGHY
09:22 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://patents.google.com/patent/IL287868A/en?q=(justin+nardone)&oq=justin+nardone
09:23 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20230019825A1/en?inventor=Justin+Michael+Nardone
09:26 AM CaptHindsight[m]: well still pending, and the first 39 claims were already cancelled
09:58 AM JT-Shop: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/987690512682939/?ref=browse_tab&referral_code=marketplace_top_picks&referral_story_type=top_picks
09:58 AM JT-Shop: wanna pay someone $40 to clean up their trash?
09:59 AM JT-Shop: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/572856891686148/?ref=browse_tab&referral_code=marketplace_top_picks&referral_story_type=top_picks
09:59 AM JT-Shop: even better
10:05 AM roycroft: how ironic that you point to a facebook post that taks about trash collection
10:16 AM JT-Shop: didn't take the dor long to cash my check...
10:16 AM JT-Shop: yup there is 90% trash on FB but from time to time I connect with a real person that want's what I'm trying to give a new zip code
10:17 AM JT-Shop: now if my longer wires for my Jabra's would ship...
10:19 AM JT-Shop: roycroft, I've seen some people laser engraving "pre-finished" wood what do you think they finish is?
10:23 AM Unterhausen: I always like the extremely rusty hand tools sitting on the ground that they want $2 for. Always tempted just to give them the $2
10:23 AM JT-Shop: lol
10:24 AM Unterhausen: JT, do you have a box that filters the air in your shop?
10:24 AM JT-Shop: not yet
10:25 AM Unterhausen: I think I'm going to build one of the 20x20x20 filter boxes because the air has been so bad here. Not sure I want it in my shop though
10:26 AM JT-Shop: any idea what filter would filter out the smoke?
10:26 AM Unterhausen: the best filters they carry at home depot are supposed to work, merv 13
10:26 AM Unterhausen: fpr10 is the same thing
10:27 AM JT-Shop: thanks
10:27 AM Unterhausen: home depot sold another 10 of the filters since yesterday
10:28 AM JT-Shop: so a positive pressure box with a merv 13 filter exit?
10:28 AM Unterhausen: negative is best, apparently
10:28 AM JT-Shop: you in the smoke zone?
10:28 AM Unterhausen: yeah, i'm really sensitive
10:28 AM JT-Shop: yuck
10:28 AM roycroft: it's pretty bad back east, from what i've read
10:28 AM Unterhausen: not as bad as 2 weeks ago, fortunately
10:28 AM JT-Shop: negative so no leaks
10:28 AM roycroft: imagine living with that for over a month straight
10:29 AM Unterhausen: probably, otherwise the duct tape wouldn't hold
10:29 AM JT-Shop: but still has to be positive from the fan to the filter or filter to fan?
10:29 AM Unterhausen: fan blows out of the box
10:29 AM JT-Shop: I don't even have duct tape on mine just clear tape
10:29 AM roycroft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7n6QSIcEvE
10:30 AM roycroft: there is a woodworking equivalent to blueing and scraping parts to fit
10:30 AM JT-Shop: roycroft, what kind of finish would be good for pre-finished wood to laser engrave?
10:30 AM Unterhausen: they show that joint in pieces and I still can't see how it works
10:31 AM roycroft: you mean finish for the engraved part?
10:31 AM roguish[m]: hey, check it out.... https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/top-design-tips-reducing-cnc-lead-times
10:31 AM JT-Shop: yeah, I've see some videos where they use pre finished wood to engrave
10:32 AM JT-Shop: a lot of line drawing so far...
10:32 AM roycroft: well, not knowing what the pre-finish is, but assuming it's some kind of 2 part polyurethane or lacquer, which is common, shellac is the finish most compatible with other finishes
10:32 AM roycroft: so it would probably be the safest thing to use
10:33 AM JT-Shop: one video I saw the ply was finished with something clear then he rubbed watered down paint on the engraved part to make it darker
10:35 AM Unterhausen: I want to make a sliding dovetail by hand, and the first step is to use a wooden dovetail plane
10:35 AM roycroft: my experiments are still somewhat limited, but when i tried engraving, filling the engraved part with paint, and then sanding to remove any paint on the surface, i've had the best results by spraying a thin coat of shellac on the part first, then egraving, then applying another coat of shellac (to seal the engraved part), then painting, then sending
10:35 AM JT-Shop: ok thanks, I'll give that a try
10:35 AM Unterhausen: I keep thinking about making a router table, but have no room for one
10:35 AM roycroft: that technique eliminated most of the wicking of paint into the non-engraved areas
10:37 AM roycroft: the zinsser rattle can shellac is dewaxed, which is important for compatibility with other finishes
10:44 AM * JT-Woodshop takes notes
10:46 AM roycroft: the initial coat of shellac helps avoid smoke stains on the unengraved surfaces
10:49 AM JT-Shop: ok
10:51 AM * JT-Shop heads to River Ridge
11:39 AM Unterhausen: signing a kernel is a batch of annoying steps
11:40 AM Unterhausen: the french would never have invented bureaucracy if they foresaw this
12:01 PM roycroft: but now your kernel smells of elberberries
12:07 PM travis_farmer[m4: roycroft; somebody recommended i use "low tack tape" over my wood pieces when laser burning. says it makes the engraving cleaner. what are your thoughts? i would think it would reduce laser burn on the wood where i want it, making the burn-time longer, and thus making the total run time longer.
12:08 PM roycroft: i tried that
12:08 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I do this on my CO2 laser and it works quite well. The only minor issue is that very small areas can be hard to get the tape off.
12:08 PM roycroft: i found that it requires a lot more laser power to cut through the tape, and the residue can be difficult to remove
12:09 PM roycroft: spraying with shellac prior to engraving and then sanding it down after has worked much better for me
12:09 PM travis_farmer[m4: i would think my air-assist would work better than low tack tape
12:09 PM roycroft: but i know that there are many situations where sanding after engraving is not an option
12:09 PM roycroft: although with shellac, one could wipe the surface down with a damp rag to remove the smoke, and then wipe it again with ethanol, which would remove virtually all the shellac
12:10 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I have air assist and it doesn't help that much with avoiding burns. The tape or the shellac is really needed to get a clean surface. Similar to the protective covering on plexiglass.
12:11 PM roycroft: air assist is an absolute requirement when laser engraving/cutting, imo
12:11 PM roycroft: but it's not enough
12:11 PM * roycroft thinks he and zincboy are saying the exact same thing
12:11 PM travis_farmer[m4: ok, i think the shellac sounds better :-)
12:11 PM roycroft: i'd give it a go
12:12 PM roycroft: but use dewaxed shellac
12:12 PM roycroft: zinsser rattle can shellac is dewaxes, as is their seal coat product
12:12 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: @roycroft, I am just typing a bit quicker 😛
12:12 PM roycroft: but their standard clear and amber shellacs in a can are not dewaxed
12:12 PM travis_farmer[m4: really gotta build a fume evac system. more than a fan in the door, and an open window... ;-)
12:14 PM travis_farmer[m4: the air still kinda burns my eyes when i go in the shop right after a burn. i don't think the fan is doing it ;-)
12:18 PM travis_farmer[m4: thinking of using one of these to suck the air from the laser and blow it outside (in 4-inch): https://www.ebay.com/itm/195419985817
12:20 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Should be fine as long as you have a decent enclosure around the laser. If you just have an open system with an intake by the laser I would go bigger.
12:20 PM jpa-: looks loud and powerful :)
12:20 PM travis_farmer[m4: jpa-: says 49 db
12:20 PM jpa-: also if the building has ventilation, it may be pulling negative pressure to the room - in that case it gets hard to push exhaust out
12:21 PM travis_farmer[m4: hmmm
12:21 PM travis_farmer[m4: maybe a filter of some sort? and then blow back into room?
12:22 PM jpa-: carbon filters work, or you can open a window or something where replacement air can get in easily
12:22 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: You would need a pretty good hepa and carbon filter. You can do it but it is pretty pricey.
12:22 PM travis_farmer[m4: maybe a carbon filter... if i ever get A/C in there, i don't want to suck it all out
12:23 PM travis_farmer[m4: Hmmm, hepa...
12:23 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Otherwise you are just recirculating all of the dangerous nano particles.
12:24 PM travis_farmer[m4: https://www.amazon.com/Pureburg-1-Pack-Replacement-HoMedics-AF-20FL/dp/B07NS3VK4L/
12:27 PM roycroft: i hear that australian carbon is the bee's knees
12:52 PM travis_farmer[m4: Hmmm, my father and i have to go get an A/C when he gets home from work... only vehicle that has room is my truck, as my fathers truck is full of tools... the weather is looking very thunderstorm-ish though... and my truck has an open bed...
12:54 PM JT[m]: Large trash bag
12:54 PM travis_farmer[m4: not sure it will fit, 10,000BTU. maybe my father has a small tarp...
12:58 PM roycroft: if you drive fast enough the friction of the rain hitting the quickly-moving air conditioner will evaporate it instantly
12:58 PM * roycroft hands travis_farmer an no2 tank
12:58 PM JT[m]: LOL
12:59 PM travis_farmer[m4: LMAO
01:24 PM Unterhausen: are elderberries any good? Never see them down at the farmer's market
01:25 PM Unterhausen: openssl requires a random number file. It can generate the random number file if it wants
01:25 PM Unterhausen: but it prefers to fail if the file doesn't exist. Not sure why you would want to keep the random number file
01:27 PM JT[m]: Elderberry wine is wonderful
01:27 PM Unterhausen: have heard of it, not sure how people make it if they can't buy elderberries
01:28 PM JT[m]: You pick them
01:30 PM * roycroft loves elderberry wine
01:30 PM roycroft: i have elderberry bushes in my back yard, unterhausen
01:34 PM Unterhausen: how about hops?
01:35 PM Unterhausen: people try to grow hops around here and it doesn't go well
01:35 PM Tom_L: aren't AC units exposed to rain anyway?
01:38 PM roycroft: i live in hops country
01:39 PM roycroft: just north of here is the second-biggest hops growing region in the us, next to the yakima valley in washington
01:39 PM roycroft: oregon state university is the world leader in hops research and development
01:39 PM roycroft: i don't grow hops, though
01:40 PM roycroft: i don't want to set up and maintain the infrastructure required to do i properly
01:40 PM Unterhausen: I saw some hops fields in michigan, pretty impressive
01:41 PM Unterhausen: apparently you can grow grapes here, not sure about elderberries
01:43 PM roycroft: i should think you can
01:43 PM Tom_L: they grow both here
01:43 PM roycroft: they're zone 3-9
01:43 PM Tom_L: and blackberries
01:44 PM Unterhausen: I have to reboot numerous times to see if this kernel will load
01:44 PM roycroft: northern pennsylvania is zone 5, and southern pennsylvania zone 6
01:46 PM Unterhausen: zone 6 here
01:46 PM Unterhausen: a or b I am not sure
01:47 PM roycroft: only tiny bits of extreme northern minnesota and north dakota are in zone 2
01:47 PM roycroft: so the entire continental united states, other than those areas and the extreme south, are suitable for elderberries
01:48 PM * Tom_L decides it's getting too hot out to do any thing and goes for a nap
01:55 PM JT[m]: The outside is
01:55 PM Unterhausen: well, my kernel booted anyway
01:56 PM Unterhausen: maybe I'll just install the debian lcnc package for testing
01:56 PM JT[m]: Cool
01:57 PM Unterhausen: just trying to do apt-get install linuxcnc didn't work
01:58 PM Unterhausen: it's linuxcnc-uspace
01:59 PM Unterhausen: install not exactly instantaneous
02:03 PM Unterhausen: no joy, it installs a kernel
02:03 PM Unterhausen: okay, so it might work, just not with my kernel
02:07 PM Unterhausen: going to test latency before I uninstall
02:43 PM travis_farmer[m4: there, new A/C is IN :-) :-) :-)
03:27 PM roycroft: so in lieu of spending hundreds of dollars on proper live-edge dressing tools, i got this at lunch time today: https://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-150-grit-shaft-mounted-wheel-brush-91372.html
03:27 PM roycroft: in about 15 minutes, i got half the the live edge rough-dressed
03:27 PM roycroft: it went from looking like this: roycroft.us/BowTies/LiveEdge1.jpeg
03:28 PM roycroft: to this: roycroft.us/BowTies/LiveEdge2.jpeg
03:28 PM roycroft: i'm still going to have to spend a couple hours with sanding sponges getting it nice and smooth, but that nylon wheel really helped out
03:30 PM XXCoder: I guess nylon isnt too abustive on edge
03:30 PM XXCoder: interesting
03:57 PM Tom_L: 100F so far
03:57 PM roycroft: tuesday is when it's going to get hot here
03:57 PM Tom_L: that edge looks better
03:58 PM roycroft: xxcoder: my intent is to get rid of the cruft while maintaining the profile as much as possible
03:58 PM roycroft: cleaning up live edges is a lot of work - that much i've learned from the youtube videos on dealing with slabs
03:58 PM Tom_L: wonder what hammering it with say walnut hulls would do
03:59 PM roycroft: i've thought about taht
03:59 PM roycroft: and i have some
03:59 PM Tom_L: bigger mess
03:59 PM roycroft: but walnut shells are expensive, and the slab is too big to fit in my blasting cabinet
03:59 PM roycroft: so i'd have to do it outdoors in the open, and would not be able to recover the walnut shells
04:00 PM * roycroft reminds himself and everyone that this counter is for a booth at the country fair, and it will get banged up and dusty/dirty immediately upon installation
04:00 PM XXCoder: cant make a blasting station using tarps and framework?
04:00 PM roycroft: i'm spending the time making it nice because i've not dealt with live edges before
04:01 PM * travis_farmer[m4 uploaded an image: (1072KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/tYFqEiSiaRGTqkARZysFepcl/Screenshot%202023-06-29%20at%2016-59-37%20Radar.png >
04:01 PM roycroft: and i want to learn how to do it well
04:01 PM travis_farmer[m4: some strikes are a little close...
04:02 PM Tom_L: travis_farmer[m4, we had one hit ~30' from the front door a while back
04:02 PM Tom_L: hit a tree and you could see dirt unearthed around the base of it
04:02 PM travis_farmer[m4: yeah, that's a bit close, Tom_L
04:02 PM Tom_L: as well as a burn down the side of the tree
04:02 PM Tom_L: it did survive
04:03 PM XXCoder: closest one I ever saw was 3 feet
04:03 PM Tom_L: and you lived to tell us
04:03 PM travis_farmer[m4: :-O
04:03 PM XXCoder: well yeah I was in covered patio. I looked to right and that was where thunder hit
04:03 PM XXCoder: couldnt see for few seconds, had to carefully go back inside
04:04 PM Tom_L: i watched one go down a radio tower once
04:04 PM Tom_L: it was interesting to see it cross the big insulators on the guy wire
04:04 PM XXCoder: it was easy to figure distance, there was burn mark on yard
04:05 PM travis_farmer[m4: lucky you didn't catch a stray, XX
04:05 PM XXCoder: hmm may be actually 5 feet? been a long time, but still extremely close
04:06 PM XXCoder: anyway I was 10? so young and foolish then lol
04:07 PM travis_farmer[m4: could you smell the ozone?
04:07 PM XXCoder: I cant smell at all, so no.
04:07 PM travis_farmer[m4: Hmm...
04:07 PM XXCoder: plus I went inside as carefully and quick as possible lol
04:08 PM XXCoder: man I still remember how huge the red area of vision was lol
04:08 PM XXCoder: could see edges of it
04:08 PM travis_farmer[m4: i have visions of cartoons, where the legs spin like wheels, XX trying to get away ;-)
04:08 PM XXCoder: you know when you see bright light and see spots from it
04:08 PM XXCoder: it was almost my entire vision area except for left and right sides
04:09 PM travis_farmer[m4: yeah, same as welding flash
04:09 PM XXCoder: fun
04:13 PM XXCoder: I still miss ark state thunderstorms lol
04:13 PM travis_farmer[m4: oh, you mean flat-lander storms? i hear they are pretty impressive
04:14 PM XXCoder: it is. I lived at ark for couple years
04:15 PM * travis_farmer[m4 has never eft his time-zone, lol. north and south, but same time-zone...
04:15 PM travis_farmer[m4: *left
04:15 PM XXCoder: go out, explore some
04:16 PM roycroft: the real flatlanders are in the texas panhandle
04:17 PM roycroft: jimmy dale gilmore, who is from lubbock, says "in lubbock if you stand on your tip-toes you can see the next town. if you stand on a can of tuna you can see the next county."
04:18 PM travis_farmer[m4: what if you are 6' 3", like me? next state? ;-)
04:18 PM roycroft: or maybe the next timezone
04:18 PM travis_farmer[m4: lol
04:19 PM roycroft: although in montana that's the same thing - that state spans an entire timezone
04:20 PM roycroft: you enter from idaho, which is in the pacific timezone (in the panhandle), and you leave in north or south dakota, which are in central time
04:21 PM travis_farmer[m4: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ kinda like time travel ;-)
04:21 PM XXCoder: explains how superman travels back in time by flying around
04:23 PM roycroft: i just watched the final episode of st:tng the other night
04:23 PM roycroft: where picard exists in three different times at once
04:23 PM roycroft: thanks to the q
04:24 PM XXCoder: that was good one
04:24 PM roycroft: yeah, it was pretty good
04:24 PM travis_farmer[m4: Hmm, matrix is dropping post again... "XXCoder: go out, explore some" i would if i could...
04:24 PM roycroft: and now i'm on to ds9
04:24 PM XXCoder: ds now that was fun series, though some boring sections
04:25 PM travis_farmer: maybe i will just talk here, where the cool people go ;-)
04:25 PM XXCoder: seems bot dropped few lines but work fine again
04:25 PM travis_farmer: well, either way. almost supper time anyway
04:28 PM Unterhausen: I guess it's okay if Rod Weaver has a minor typo in his document on how to build lcnc from source
04:30 PM Unterhausen: I'm told the lcnc docs build, but otoh, they don't build for anyone I know
04:31 PM travis_farmer: last i tried, they build if you leave out docs
04:31 PM Unterhausen: that's what I said, the docs don't build
04:31 PM travis_farmer: oh, yes, i see it now...
04:32 PM Unterhausen: les langues etrangeres cause it to fail somehow
04:33 PM Unterhausen: english is fine, but I don't know how to only build english
04:33 PM roycroft: add --DMAGA to your compile flags
04:33 PM Unterhausen: I'm not going to honor that with a response
04:33 PM roycroft: *chuckle*
04:34 PM Unterhausen: oh, wait, I just did
04:36 PM Unterhausen: just asked on the dev list
04:36 PM Unterhausen: hopefully not as many smart aleck hippies over there
04:41 PM roycroft: if it weren't for me you would die of boredom
04:41 PM roycroft: so you're welcome
04:43 PM Unterhausen: I'm dying from the smoke, so thanks but no thanks
04:44 PM Unterhausen: almost forgot I want to build lcnc against my new kernel,that would have been an oops
04:45 PM Unterhausen: even with nodocs configured, it requires the doc build tools, which take forever to install
04:47 PM * roycroft wonders if dying of boredom is more or less painful than dying of canadian smoke
04:50 PM travis_farmer: Mmmm, i have a hot and delicious sausage and bacon pizza sitting in front of me, so i shall be signing off. See Y'all tomorrow! :-)
04:52 PM Unterhausen: dying of canadian smoke is a slow and boring process
04:52 PM Unterhausen: probably be okay as long as I don't do any exercise though
05:22 PM Unterhausen: I'm afraid to ask what a fuzzy translation is
05:31 PM Unterhausen: I should change my language to French
05:33 PM Tom_L: mmm i need to point the repo to the release now...
05:33 PM Tom_L: any clue what the line should be now?
05:34 PM Tom_L: mine was installed during it's testing phase
05:34 PM Tom_L: for 12
05:34 PM JT-Shop: what repo?
05:34 PM Tom_L: for bookworm
05:34 PM JT-Shop: you mean the synaptic package manager?
05:35 PM Tom_L: yeah sources.list
05:35 PM JT-Shop: ah ok it changed a while back... let me look
05:35 PM Tom_L: i know
05:35 PM Tom_L: i'm using a ftp site but it doesn't matter really
05:35 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
05:36 PM Tom_dev: deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ bookworm main non-free contrib
05:36 PM JT-Shop: I think I updated the cave pc but not here
05:36 PM Tom_dev: that's what i have now and it's complaining
05:36 PM JT-Shop: I'll go down and look
05:37 PM Tom_dev: Repository 'http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm InRelease' changed its 'Version' value from '' to '12.0'
05:37 PM Tom_dev: N: Repository 'http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm InRelease' changed its 'Suite' value from 'testing' to 'stable'
05:37 PM Unterhausen: mine just installed
05:37 PM Unterhausen: didn't have to change any repository
05:37 PM Tom_dev: the sources.list doesn't have InRelease though
05:37 PM Tom_dev: Unterhausen, i installed mine way before it was released
05:38 PM Unterhausen: mine was before release too, don't remember when I made the iso
05:39 PM Unterhausen: maybe I should have d/l again, but laziness
05:41 PM JT-Cave: deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ bookworm main non-free non-free-firmware contrib
05:41 PM JT-Cave: deb-src http://deb.debian.org/debian/ bookworm main non-free non-free-firmware contrib
05:41 PM JT-Cave: that's what I have down here
05:41 PM Tom_dev: ok
05:47 PM Tom_L: working now
05:48 PM Tom_L: wonder what this will break
05:49 PM JT-Cave: hopefully nothing...
05:49 PM Tom_L: probably upgrading every package...
05:50 PM Unterhausen: so far the docs are building. And building, and building, and building
05:51 PM Tom_L: yeah those take longer than the source
05:54 PM Unterhausen: seems like if you want a rpi4 8gb, they are available
05:54 PM Unterhausen: 4gb sells out pretty fast still
05:55 PM Unterhausen: restore has a batch of old hand saws, should make a trip
05:56 PM Unterhausen: problem with handsaws is people destroy them for crafts and don't worry if it's a good saw or not
05:57 PM JT-Shop: Repository 'Debian bookworm' changed its 'non-free component' value from 'non-free' to 'non-free non-free-firmware'
05:58 PM JT-Shop: that's what I get here from sudo apt update
06:02 PM JT-Shop: I let River Ridge Winery owners son drive the C8 today, the PDR is so cool going to combine it with a photo of him and post it in the am
06:04 PM Tom_L: fun
06:04 PM * JT-Shop calls it a night
06:41 PM Tom_L: what does the sources.list point to for linuxcnc now?
06:41 PM Tom_L: for bookworm
06:41 PM Tom_L: is it a part of mainline debian now?
06:42 PM Tom_L: the buildbot.linuxcnc ones stop with buster
06:47 PM Tom_L: mesact and mesaflash are included in mainline now
06:48 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:49 PM Tom_dev: Linux bookworm 6.1.0-9-rt-amd64 #1 SMP PREEMPT_RT Debian 6.1.27-1 (2023-05-08) x86_64 GNU/Linux
06:49 PM Tom_dev: latest preempt-rt in mainstream
06:52 PM Unterhaus_ is now known as Unterhausen
06:53 PM Tom_L: Unterhausen, why are you building a kernel anyway? preempt 6.1 is in mainstream
06:54 PM Unterhausen: pcw reported better network latency with later kernels
06:54 PM Unterhausen: 6.3 or 6.4
06:54 PM Tom_L: i wondered about that
06:54 PM Tom_L: 6.1 doesn't look that bad
06:54 PM Unterhausen: they also fixed some net drivers
06:54 PM Unterhausen: how are you testing network latency?
06:54 PM Tom_L: just the normal latency test
06:54 PM Tom_L: not net
06:55 PM Unterhausen: yeah, it's fine for that
06:55 PM Tom_L: is it needed for the ethernet mesa cards?
06:55 PM Unterhausen: needed is a very complex word sometimes
06:56 PM Unterhausen: people have reported issues
06:56 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:56 PM Tom_L: how are you testing it?
06:56 PM Unterhausen: I haven't, I tried to get pcw to say what he's doing and got no response. Couldn't find it on the forum
06:58 PM Unterhausen: maybe just ping?
06:58 PM Tom_dev: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/48283-guidance-needed-initial-linuxcnc-pncconf-setup?start=10
06:58 PM Tom_dev: sudo chrt 99 ping -i .001 -q [card_ip_address]
06:58 PM Tom_dev: And run it for an hour or so while doing normal things on the computer.
06:58 PM Tom_dev: (you stop it with control C)
06:59 PM Unterhausen: thanks
06:59 PM Unterhausen: so it was just ping
06:59 PM Tom_dev: seems so
07:00 PM Tom_dev: also probably >logfile
07:00 PM Tom_dev: to check for spikes
07:01 PM Unterhausen: heh, my kernel is no good for regular old latency
07:01 PM Tom_dev: there are a handfull of switches you can twiddle but i've long lost that set of notes
07:02 PM Unterhausen: I probably twiddled the wrong ones
07:03 PM Unterhausen: maybe I'll setup the xeon to build it, has much more memory and faster cores
07:03 PM Unterhausen: I was hoping someone would put a better kernel on the web, but they haven't yet
07:04 PM Unterhausen: I'm afraid I stole the ssd out of that one to make a winders machine
07:05 PM Tom_dev: i keep a pile of those on hand
07:05 PM Tom_dev: then you forget which ssd you put the notes on
07:05 PM Unterhausen: I have an extra, was supposed to go into this one
07:05 PM Unterhausen: I keep my notes in the cloud
07:06 PM Unterhausen: my problem is not keeping notes
07:07 PM Unterhausen: the whole deal about signing the kernel adds an extra couple of steps
07:07 PM Tom_dev: i suppose
07:08 PM Unterhausen: It turned out to be fairly easy and now I have a certificate for Unterhausen Tool and Die
07:08 PM Tom_dev: why did it need to be signed?
07:09 PM Unterhausen: I have secure boot turned on
07:09 PM Unterhausen: doesn't really seem to hurt anything
07:10 PM XXCoder: interesting design and engineering https://youtu.be/xev18rBrNr0
07:15 PM Unterhausen: xx that's pretty neat and also pretty pointless
07:16 PM XXCoder: likely more lossy but then its more even across pedaling
07:16 PM XXCoder: its too much for some improvement. picture the bicycle price with it
07:16 PM Unterhausen: people have had this idea before, as always is true with bicycle design
07:17 PM Unterhausen: this is unique implementation though, which is a big achievement
07:17 PM XXCoder: indeed
07:17 PM Unterhausen: usually when people invent something bicycle related, that exact thing has been invented before
07:18 PM Unterhausen: there is one thing that has been invented independently at least 4 times and it was patented twice within 5 years not that long ago
07:18 PM XXCoder: lol
07:18 PM Unterhausen: great patent search
07:19 PM XXCoder: I dont know how I would have designed it honestly
07:19 PM Unterhausen: I certainly wouldn't have used a follower
07:19 PM XXCoder: would be fanastic if zero points would be just dips rather than zero torque
07:22 PM Unterhausen: round pedaling has no zero torque points
07:22 PM Unterhausen: this guy seems to have done some research about linear pedaling http://lefthandedcyclist.blogspot.com/2014/07/graeme-obrees-beastie-lure-of-linear.html
07:23 PM XXCoder: yeah since both feet is at top and bottom so no torque. it'd have to somehow change so it still applies torque but no idea how lol
07:23 PM XXCoder: cyclic systems will always have zero points as long as we humans have 2 legs
07:23 PM Unterhausen: I told my design class that they could never invent anything related to bikes, because it had been done before
07:24 PM XXCoder: if we had 3 legs, then something is pushing pedal at all times
07:24 PM XXCoder: 4, even more smooth torque
07:24 PM Unterhausen: not really, legs are pretty complex
07:24 PM Unterhausen: people do tend to mostly push though, in practice
07:25 PM Tom_L: flintstone mobile
07:25 PM XXCoder: think about it. 3 arm pedals means it will always have one pedal being pushed
07:25 PM Unterhausen: the whole zero point issue is why people tried out oval chainrings
07:25 PM Unterhausen: turns out that they all settled on chainrings that are almost round
07:26 PM XXCoder: lowest point would be when one pedal is stright up, and next one being losing torque as it bottoms out, and #3 still going up and zero torque
07:26 PM XXCoder: oval gearing. interesting
07:26 PM Unterhausen: but you can still push and pull at those points, whereas a linear system has no such ability
07:27 PM Unterhausen: I tend to pull through the bottom of the stroke, as evidenced by the fact I have cramped from doing that
07:28 PM Unterhausen: everybody drops their heel and pushes through on the top under high load
07:28 PM XXCoder: I just push down honestly. im not out to race :)
07:28 PM Unterhausen: I'm just out not to fall over
07:28 PM XXCoder: thats why I plan to buy 3 wheel bicycle
07:29 PM XXCoder: once money issues is resolved anyway
07:29 PM Unterhausen: you can still start going backwards
07:29 PM XXCoder: (i have perment dizzyness problem, and vision arent tracking)
07:30 PM Unterhausen: not good
07:30 PM Unterhausen: when you get your trike, don't go fast
07:30 PM Unterhausen: they are only stable at low speeds
07:31 PM Tom_L: that was proven with the powered trikes.. now all you see are quads
07:32 PM Unterhausen: I saw a velomobile probably going 50mph up on two wheels. I thought they were going to crash, but they didn't
07:32 PM Unterhausen: don't have to be going that fast
07:33 PM Unterhausen: british racing tricycles are famous for crashing https://www.ccbexley.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Trike-CC-Bexley.jpeg
07:37 PM Unterhausen: well, now I have a google doc about building and signing kernels
07:38 PM Unterhausen: I suppose I should try isolcpus before I give up on my kernel
07:38 PM XXCoder: unter wow thats interesting. though not too surpised that it exists
07:38 PM XXCoder: if something exists theres probably sport in it
07:39 PM liaoque: isolcpus must be set
07:40 PM Unterhausen: the stock lcnc uspace kernel had acceptable latency without isolcpu
07:42 PM Unterhausen: for a network mesa card.
07:43 PM XXCoder: I wonder if front tridcycle would work for better stability.
07:43 PM XXCoder: you see it with modern 3 wheel cars.
07:43 PM XXCoder: I guess would steer from rear wheel for ease of design.
07:45 PM Unterhausen: 3 wheel recumbent bikes don't tend to flip, but they loop pretty badly under heavy braking
07:45 PM XXCoder: I dont mean recumbent bikes
07:45 PM XXCoder: just altering a regular 3 wheel
07:46 PM Unterhausen: did you ever see the top gear with the reliant robin?
07:46 PM XXCoder: yep. they heavily modifed robin.
07:46 PM Unterhausen: that was single front wheel, never mind
07:46 PM XXCoder: reliant robin certainly do have issues, but they made it much worse
07:47 PM Unterhausen: I guess it was easier to roll onto the driver's side
07:48 PM XXCoder: yeah though they also removed some of safety stuff that helps stop roll over with heavy driver and empty passager
07:48 PM XXCoder: https://jalopnik.com/clarkson-reveals-bombshell-top-gear-modified-reliant-r-1752707025
07:54 PM Unterhausen: it was still hilarious. Especially when he drives up much later and rolls it when I didn't expect it
07:54 PM XXCoder: yeah
07:54 PM Unterhausen: there are stability criteria for tricycles. I probably have an aircraft design book that covers it
07:55 PM XXCoder: honestly only mod im doing to cycle is addition of roof for rainy days, some 3d printed accessories, and ugly paint
07:55 PM Unterhausen: but tail draggers are known for looping, so there is something about them under braking
07:55 PM XXCoder: and roof is a maybe
08:09 PM Unterhausen: latency is pretty bad even with isolcpus, going to rebuild
08:10 PM Tom_L: take notes just in case you suceed :)
08:10 PM XXCoder: yep its not science till you write it down ;)
08:12 PM Unterhausen: that's what I've been doing wrong
08:15 PM liaoque: Unterhausen ：build xenomai
08:17 PM Unterhausen: doesn't work with mesa ethernet
08:17 PM Unterhausen: wish it did
08:18 PM Unterhausen: there is a package that wasn't maintained
08:21 PM skunkworks[m]: Unterhousen: what is the latency?
08:22 PM Unterhausen: it was 160 or so
08:22 PM Unterhausen: was getting 35 with stock kernel
08:23 PM liaoque: xenomai can achieve
08:23 PM liaoque: 10us
08:23 PM Unterhausen: xconfig not letting me set cpu isolation
08:23 PM Unterhausen: probably could, if it would work with my hardware
08:25 PM piranha32[m] is now known as piranha320[m]
08:31 PM thorhian[m]: I'm curious, anybody seen and maybe used one of these interesting cheap BT30 spindles? https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805422440669.html
08:36 PM Unterhausen: that spindle looks interesting, do they have them without the tool changer?
08:37 PM Unterhausen: maybe I'll scavenge some memory out of another system so it doesn't take so long to build the kernel
09:07 PM pcw--home: Unterhausen: Which kernel?
09:08 PM Unterhausen: 6.4
09:10 PM Unterhausen: pcw--home do you have a 6.4 kernel config? Seems like the stock kernel has some weird choices
09:11 PM pcw--home: I have the last one I made, just about to make 6.4-rt6
09:12 PM Unterhausen: that's what I am trying to build. If I could get your config for it that would be great
09:13 PM pcw--home: the 6,4 kernel seem to have good latency and have fixed the network latency issues of the 5..early6 series kernels
09:14 PM pcw--home: now have about 40 days uptime 0 packet timeouts (compiling kernels, watching videos, compiling firmware etc)
09:17 PM Unterhausen: pcw--home I couldn't enable isolcpu in xconfig, does that sound familiar?
09:19 PM pcw--home: I didn't know you could do that anywhere but grub
09:20 PM Unterhausen: it's a kernel option to enable it
09:20 PM pcw--home: http://freeby.mesanet.com/6.4config
09:20 PM Unterhausen: thanks
09:25 PM pcw--home: of course that config builds pretty much everything so will take a while
09:27 PM Unterhausen: you had low-latency desktop selected instead of full preemptable
09:29 PM pcw--home: that's weird because that's not what I built
09:30 PM Unterhausen: trying it anyway, at least cpu isolation was selected
09:30 PM pcw--home: In fact, once you apply the RT patch, Fully preemptable is always pre-selected
09:30 PM Unterhausen: my experience was that it selected low latency desktop
09:31 PM Unterhausen: I switched it
09:31 PM Unterhausen: guess I'll see how it works tomorrow at this point
09:32 PM Tom_L: i may give that a try in a day or so too
09:39 PM pcw--home: That config is set for fully preemptable so maybe a config tool issue?
09:39 PM pcw--home: CONFIG_PREEMPT_RT=y
09:39 PM pcw--home: CONFIG_PREEMPT_COUNT=y
09:39 PM pcw--home: CONFIG_PREEMPTION=y
09:41 PM Unterhausen: could be, I used xconfig
09:44 PM Unterhausen: not sure what the difference between low latency desktop and full preempt would be
09:46 PM Tom_L: it's not the same for sure
09:46 PM Tom_L: i ran into that on a previous build and it's not preempt
09:47 PM Unterhausen: maybe xconfig isn't the right thing to use
09:47 PM Unterhausen: haven't tried menuconfig
09:49 PM Tom_L: iirc i may have used menuconfig
09:50 PM Unterhausen: xconfig tries to interpret things for you, probably better to use something else
09:50 PM pcw--home: I have used menuconfig on some systems, it always works where xconfig sometimes has issues with graphics libraries
10:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/IR/nistir5331.pdf
10:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=820252
10:39 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://web.archive.org/web/20100527174141/http://www.isd.mel.nist.gov/documents/proctor/sim/sim.html
10:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=820483
10:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinuxCNC#References I or someone needs to fix the dead links, the papers are all still available
11:56 PM roycroft: teh wikipedia is pretty good at dead links
11:56 PM roycroft: that's why i'm such a packrat
11:56 PM roycroft: i tend to download stuff instead of saving links to it