#linuxcnc Logs

Feb 05 2023

02:22 AM c101horse8332[m]: the little pi has run the latency test all night, running 14glx gears kept stable at 59.3 for a while until i went to bed, woke up to it saying 93.something
02:32 AM c101horse8332[m]: is that still okay?
02:41 AM Deejay: moin
02:46 AM c101horse8332[m]: moin moin
03:36 AM travis_farmer[m]: G'Morning
03:38 AM travis_farmer[m]: c101horse🇳🇱#8332: i was told that anything under 100 will run a mesa ethernet board
03:40 AM c101horse8332[m]: aye
03:40 AM c101horse8332[m]: did some tweaking, currently its sitting stable at 41.6 running 14gears
03:41 AM travis_farmer[m]: sounds like a winner!
03:44 AM c101horse8332[m]: now i just gotta make sure i have the ini file set up correctly
03:48 AM c101horse8332[m]: [EMCMOT]
03:48 AM c101horse8332[m]: EMCMOT = motmod
03:48 AM c101horse8332[m]: SERVO_PERIOD = 1000000
03:48 AM c101horse8332[m]: does that look right to yall?
04:21 AM c101horse8332[m]: done some mucking around while the latency test was running, its back up to 93.something
04:50 AM c101horse8332[m]: crap, i forgot how to set the ip adress on the pi and now i cant find the instructions that i used last time
04:50 AM XXCoder: if browser is still open and firefox, ctrl t
04:51 AM XXCoder: uhh wait a second
04:51 AM c101horse8332[m]: not using ff
04:52 AM XXCoder: dammit my brain is refusing to work. yea im sure other browser have bring back closed tab too
04:52 AM XXCoder: ah ctrl shift t
04:52 AM c101horse8332[m]: chrome does, but its been a couple of days/weeks since i last done it
04:53 AM XXCoder: doh
04:53 AM XXCoder: maybe history search
04:53 AM c101horse8332[m]: i think i found it
05:09 AM c101horse8332[m]: im trying to ssh into it but doing hostname -i on the pi results in a 127.0.xx.xx ip
05:28 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:28 AM c101horse8332[m]: i think i got it now
05:29 AM c101horse8332[m]: morning JT
05:29 AM JT-Cave: big I
05:34 AM c101horse8332[m]: is it normal for the ethernet link to be configuring for a while?
05:51 AM c101horse8332[m]: nope i havent got it, how do i set the ip again so it can connect with the mesa
05:52 AM c101horse8332[m]: my brain isnt functioning
05:53 AM travis_farmer[m]: JT has this for debian 11 on PC, but i don't know if it is correct for Rpi: https://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/debian-11-eth.html
06:05 AM JT-Cave: the rpi can be a bit different
06:07 AM c101horse8332[m]: that doesnt seem to have worked, keeps saying link is up, configuring
06:08 AM Tom_L: morning
06:51 AM c101horse8332[m]: it seems the pi cant execute display program qtpyvcp qtdragon
06:52 AM c101horse8332[m]: does that mean im limited to using axis?
07:06 AM c101horse8332[m]: ive got movement again
07:07 AM c101horse8332[m]: its in axis and im getting joint following errors if i jog into a different direction than i started moving in
07:07 AM c101horse8332[m]: but its a start
07:27 AM travis_farmer[m]: well, whatever you do, c101horse🇳🇱#8332 , don't start over on it from now on. you are down to just configuration issues that CAN be fixed. i don't remember exactly how to fix following errors, but it is just a configuration issue.
07:28 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Typically PID tuning issues cause following errord.
07:30 AM JT-Cave: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/config/stepper-diagnostics.html#_error_messages
07:31 AM c101horse8332[m]: id rather have something with a probescreen working first tbh, the following errors are most likely my doing
07:33 AM JT-Cave: a pyvcp probe screen is easy to make from cradek[m] excellent probe routines
07:33 AM travis_farmer[m]: c101horse🇳🇱#8332: it is "qtvcp qtdragon" not "qtpyvcp qtdragon"
07:33 AM c101horse8332[m]: thats my current hurdle, no luck on qtdragon yet, that other probescreen thing for axis doesnt seem to be working either, and well, pb wont work on pi
07:33 AM c101horse8332[m]: i might have to try again then
07:44 AM c101horse8332[m]: i aparantly dont have qtpyvcp on it yet
07:45 AM c101horse8332[m]: how do i get it on there
07:45 AM travis_farmer[m]: qtpyvcp is for probe basic, qtvcp is for qtdragon
07:46 AM JT-Cave: qtpyvcp can make many different gui's including my mill touch 6
07:52 AM sensille: where can i find cradek's probe routines? it is not obvious from a first google search
07:53 AM JT-Shop: I'll find them
07:55 AM JT-Shop: but first I need to start a fire
08:00 AM sensille: it looks like "milltask" is keeping the gcode file open even after it stopped running. is this intended? it keeps me from replacing the file via cifs
08:02 AM jpa-: sensille: potentially you could add a filter of "cat" to make it use a temporary file instead
08:02 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I have found that it is not a good idea to have the linuxcnc config or nc_files mounted via cifs.
08:03 AM JT-Shop: sensille, https://github.com/jethornton/mill_touch_v6/tree/master/config/subroutines
08:03 AM sensille: i mean, if it is not intended, i could also just try to fix it
08:03 AM sensille: JT-Shop: thanks
08:03 AM sensille: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: why not, apart from the above issue?
08:04 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Linuxcnc touches the files far too much to have them mounted on a network share. It actually will cause problems and slow down execution of the code.
08:04 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I ran into this and now just have a file sync application that keeps everything in line with my fileserver.
08:04 AM JT-Shop: the last time I tried to make a qtpyvcp gui on the rpi the backplot was the issue with the rpi not having all the libs for vtk
08:08 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: A subdirectoy in nc_files can be a network mount and will work okay. I used this method before switching to Synology Drive Client but rsync would likely work as well. You will still have the file locking issue though.
08:11 AM jpa-: syncthing will probably work without locking issues, because it will replace the file "unix style" with rename() call, instead of trying to open the existing file for writing
08:11 AM jpa-: rsync will do the same with proper switches
08:14 AM sensille: also the target is on ext4, without mandatory locking
08:15 AM sensille: the "reload file" button in the UI is somewhat useless with an smb mount
08:16 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Yes, many things are broken with a smb mount. Linuxcnc really doesn't play well with network mounts as it reads/writes files all the time.
08:18 AM sensille: i just want to keep the gcode "remote updatable", the rest is local
08:21 AM rmu: NFS works fine as long as you don't overwrite a file while it is executing
08:22 AM sensille: hm. fusion 360 -smb-> fileserver -nfs-> linuxcnc
08:23 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I have found using file sync to be the best option for that. It is pretty much instant.
08:23 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I do bobcad -> file sever smb -> file sync -> nc_files
08:26 AM sensille: so the dominant opinion is that it is intended that milltask keeps the file open and it shouldn't be changed?
08:27 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: If you do go with a network share then make sure it is a subdirectoy in nc_files. The files at the top level get re-read by the interpreter every time a sub routine or file get executed.
08:28 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I think it keeps the file open as it is expected for you to hit the cycle start button again.
08:29 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Linuxcnc doesn't load the whole file into memory, it parses it in real time. Even the preview is just a run though the file ignoring delays and things.
08:31 AM rmu: and thats for a reason, g-code files can be very large, esp. with adaptive strategies
08:31 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I think that keeping the file open is correct behavior due to the way lcnc does things. Changing that would be a significant architectural change.
08:33 AM rmu: i don't think it would be a significant architectural change, but what would you gain from different behaviour except it would be different
08:33 AM sensille: that it would be safe to write to the file when it is not running
08:34 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: It is not as lcnc has no way to know that you have done that. You need to re-load the file.
08:35 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: If you wrote to the file, even when it wasn't running, the preview and what is running would not match. I consider this dangerous.
08:36 AM sensille: anyway, a "reload file" button in the UI suggests that it is safe to write to the file, it least when it is not running
08:41 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Agreed about the reload file button. I believe this is meant for after edits are made in the embedded editor.
08:43 AM rmu: it is safe to write to the file while it is not running
08:43 AM rmu: it is not safe while it is running, but that may depend
08:43 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: For an environment with a single user that is both editing the code and running the machine the locking is not really needed. But for production systems where code editing and execution are asynchronous you really want the locking to prevent changes in running systems.
08:45 AM sensille: i don't argue against the locking. i only suggest to close the file when it is safe to change it, so it can be changed
08:46 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I don't believe it is safe to change the file when milltask has it open unless a reload is forced when cyclestart is hit again. This can be quite expensive on slower hardware and with larger files.
08:48 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Perhaps a close file button/function needs to be added?
08:51 AM rmu: it is safe while it is open, you can't really "replace" it, problem is if it is closed/opened while running and it changes underneath
08:51 AM rmu: not sure if milltask keeps it open
08:51 AM Tom_L: the question there is: does lcnc check to see if the file has changed before continuing?
08:52 AM rmu: Tom_L: you can
08:52 AM Tom_L: that could force a reload
08:52 AM rmu: 't really change a file underneath
08:53 AM Tom_L: i make edits all the time and then have to hit 'reload'
08:53 AM rmu: usually if you overwrite a file, a new temporary file is created, and then moved into place of old file
08:53 AM sensille: rmu: fuser/lsof told me it keeps it open
08:53 AM Tom_L: it never notices a file change
08:53 AM rmu: may depend on frontend. probe basic instantly reloads a changed file, even while running, not fun
08:53 AM Tom_L: it keeps the one in 'memory'
08:54 AM Tom_L: that should be fixed
08:54 AM Tom_L: on RT hardware that's dangerous
08:54 AM rmu: maybe smb / windows does something funny like opon the file in RW mode, truncating it and writing new content, but that is not the way it is usually done when you use something like "mv" or "cp"
08:55 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: cifs shares don't have the same behavior as most linux/unix file systems. Some things like this break due to that.
08:55 AM rmu: open file exists as long as it is open, even if you delete it from the directory. you can
08:56 AM rmu: 't open it again but the open file exists as long as it is open
09:01 AM sensille: i would say the fewer assumption we make about the software writing the file the better
09:08 AM * c101horse8332[m] posted a file: (9KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/gFUxyzorRlOnWXFKvrxVQxCR/message.txt >
09:08 AM c101horse8332[m]: why aint it working this time
09:09 AM Tom_L: File "/usr/bin/qtvcp", line 12, in <module>
09:09 AM Tom_L: from PyQt5 import QtWidgets, QtCore, QtGui
09:09 AM Tom_L: ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'PyQt5
09:11 AM Tom_L: if you're smart, you'll make backups of your SD as you go along
09:12 AM Tom_L: taking notes of what you do along the way
09:16 AM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: you need to install a bunch of packages
09:16 AM rmu: python5-pyqt5, python5-pyqt5.qsci and maybe a bunch of others
09:18 AM Tom_L: python5? i thought the new one was 3
09:18 AM rmu: sorry yes of course
09:19 AM rmu: i'm on a crappy keyboard
09:19 AM Tom_L: phew i thought i may have blinked or something :)
09:20 AM c101horse8332[m]: ik there used to be a tutorial on gnipsel how to do it but that seems to have gone
09:21 AM rmu: if i were you i would start with axis or gmoccapy
09:22 AM c101horse8332[m]: how do i get more available space on my sd? it for some reason only has 4gigs available even tho its a 16 gig card
09:22 AM Tom_L: naw, jump right into the deep water !
09:22 AM Tom_L: :)
09:22 AM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: raspi-config
09:22 AM c101horse8332[m]: i want something with a probescreen again
09:22 AM Tom_L: it should do that automagically
09:22 AM rmu: what do you mean with "again"?
09:23 AM c101horse8332[m]: the 8-10 previous pc attempts were using qt dragon and probe basic
09:23 AM rmu: and what happened?
09:23 AM c101horse8332[m]: weird latency spikes after a couple months
09:23 AM c101horse8332[m]: weeks days
09:24 AM c101horse8332[m]: only thing that would fix it was a fresh install
09:24 AM rmu: why not go back to that and fix latency issues
09:24 AM rmu: reinstalling doesn't fix anything usually
09:24 AM c101horse8332[m]: im trying to get away of the latency issues with the pi
09:25 AM c101horse8332[m]: as i said yesterday, i've been in here with my weird issues many a times, and so far havent been able to do a fucking thing about it
09:25 AM rmu: good luck with that esp. with networked mesa card
09:25 AM Tom_L: it's going thru a switch or such?
09:25 AM c101horse8332[m]: nope
09:26 AM rmu: pcw usually is very supportive here and in the forum if you have strange problems with mesa hardware
09:26 AM c101horse8332[m]: just a 15cm cable tween the pc/pi and mesa
09:28 AM rmu: it may be thermal issue, faulty storage, cabling, or anything really, but you have to investigate in a systematic way
09:30 AM c101horse8332[m]: i've pretty much ruled everything out
09:30 AM rmu: except for the ghost in the machine.
09:31 AM c101horse8332[m]: i've spritzed it with holy water
09:32 AM rmu: if i were a computer i would stop working immediatly when spritzed with unsanitary fluids
09:33 AM rmu: so if you want to stay on the pi you will have to install python3-pyqt5 and .qsci as mentioned above then qtdragon should start
09:36 AM skunkworks: fads
09:37 AM c101horse8332[m]: linuxcnc@raspberrypi:~ $ python3 -m pip install qtpyvcp
09:37 AM c101horse8332[m]: /usr/bin/python3: No module named pip
09:37 AM c101horse8332[m]: where do i get those?
09:37 AM c101horse8332[m]: the page that had the string of commands to get that stuff is 404
09:38 AM c101horse8332[m]: or am i supposed to do this? https://forum.linuxcnc.org/qtvcp/38414-installing-qtvcp
09:38 AM c101horse8332[m]: since that doesnt seem to do anything usefull
09:40 AM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: qtpyvcp is not qtvcp, qtpyvcp doesn't work on rpi4 afaik
09:42 AM c101horse8332[m]: linuxcnc@raspberrypi:~ $ sudo apt-get install python-pyqt5
09:42 AM c101horse8332[m]: Reading package lists... Done
09:42 AM c101horse8332[m]: Building dependency tree... Done
09:42 AM c101horse8332[m]: Reading state information... Done
09:42 AM c101horse8332[m]: E: Unable to locate package python-pyqt5
09:42 AM rmu: python3-pyqt5
09:42 AM rmu: python3-pyqt5.qsci
09:43 AM c101horse8332[m]: im not a code monkey, am i supposed to do sudo apt-get install python3-pyqt5?
09:43 AM rmu: yes
09:44 AM c101horse8332[m]: ok ill try
09:47 AM * travis_farmer[m] got a burn on his finger when he slipped on the vinyl floor, checking if the furnace was working...
09:52 AM travis_farmer[m]: i discovered something, my ATC spindle will not change tools at 15F, despite having run the furnace for an hour and forty-five minutes. i could send it air, and it still was a no-go. starting to question this whole idea, if i can't use it in the winter. i can't afford fuel enough to keep it always warm...
09:53 AM rmu: travis_farmer[m]: what is happening?
09:54 AM travis_farmer[m]: just commenting that my ATC spindle is too cold to change tools, and wondering how i will use it in the winter if it won't work on a cold morning startup
09:55 AM c101horse8332[m]: damp air froze it?
09:55 AM rmu: run it for 15 minutes at 5000 rpm
09:56 AM travis_farmer[m]: i have a water trap, but maybe it wasn't trapping water
09:56 AM travis_farmer[m]: i will this afternoon, rmu , i got cold and came inside
09:58 AM rmu: not the best idea running a cnc mill while below freezing
09:58 AM travis_farmer[m]: but i had not envisioned it would even be an issue before i bought the spindle. kinda shot myself in the foot on that one. ;-)
09:59 AM travis_farmer[m]: air temp was above freezing, machine temp though was below still
10:00 AM travis_farmer[m]: thought about running the spindle fan to blow the warmer room air through it
10:00 AM travis_farmer[m]: my new shop that i am building, will certainly need better insulation and heat...
10:01 AM CloudEvil: Blowing room air through it onto cold machine surfaces will encourage condensation.
10:01 AM rmu: condensation on anything electric will be fun. frozen lubricants in your rails motors bearings and the spindle too.
10:02 AM CloudEvil: Frost prevention heaters exist and are useful
10:02 AM travis_farmer[m]: Hmmm
10:02 AM CloudEvil: Even just a tiny heater to get it 10C over ambient will kill condensation
10:04 AM rmu: just take winter off
10:04 AM travis_farmer[m]: the main issue with running heat while i am not out there, is power usage. i am allowed by my landlord (parents) to use the power while out there, but not when i am not out there.
10:05 AM c101horse8332[m]: throw a solar panel on the roof and use that to run a little heater?
10:06 AM rmu: efficiency of solar panel = 20% max, efficiency of window probably around 95%
10:06 AM rmu: (trapping sunlight)
10:08 AM travis_farmer[m]: hmmm, maybe
10:10 AM travis_farmer[m]: maybe i could build a solar air heater too...
10:12 AM solarwind: PSA: fully tested this and it's _excellent_ https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/servo-motor-nema-23-integrated-easy-servo-motor-180w-3000rpm-0-6nm-84-98oz-in-20-50vdc-brushless-dc-servo-motor-isv57t-180
10:13 AM solarwind: It's my new go-to NEMA23 motor. No need for closed loop steppers anymore. That price is excellent. Tuning was pretty easy and response is excellent.
10:13 AM solarwind: It's a rebranded leadshine iSV with slightly changed parameter numbers for configuration. Time to reverse-engineer the UART protocol and open source a better configuration tool.
10:14 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: @solarwind, thanks for taking the plunge. I will have to get some of those. I never liked the closed loop steppers, too much of a hack.
10:15 AM solarwind: Maybe eventually replace the firmware. But the gain switching in the stock firmware is good. I can set very high gains for excellent stiffness and position tracking while in motion and have it switch to an alternate gain profile when the command is 0
10:15 AM solarwind: and it avoids any oscillation
10:15 AM solarwind: I'm 100% satisfied with it. Its magnetic encoder is really good
10:15 AM solarwind: better than any results I've been able to get with a DIY AS5600 magnetic encoder assembly
10:16 AM solarwind: ZincBoy[CAON][m] the closed loop steppers are excellent too. When drive in FOC mode with a custom driver, they have insane torque
10:16 AM solarwind: ZincBoy[CAON][m] by the way, I ordered this too: https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/e6-series-1000w-ac-servo-motor-kit-3000rpm-3-18nm-17-bit-encoder-ip65-e6-rs1000h2a2-m17s
10:16 AM solarwind: I also love it, there's a lot to say so I'm doing a write up on it
10:16 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I haven't tried the FOC steppers. I am sure they are much better than the original close loop steppers I tried.
10:16 AM solarwind: tuning is a bit more of a hassle because there's currently no software to see the graphs, so I had to make my own using an FPGA
10:17 AM solarwind: SimpleFOC project is all you need
10:17 AM solarwind: and an L298 or some dual H bridge
10:17 AM solarwind: if the encoder is good, (which it is on the stepperonline closed loop steppers, it's 4000 count optical), then you will get excellent results
10:18 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: No, please, not the l298! So many better h-bridges out there 🙂
10:18 AM solarwind: there are, just an example
10:18 AM solarwind: but steppers having 50 pole pairs driven in FOC mode give you insane torue
10:18 AM solarwind: like well beyond their holding/pull out torque rating
10:18 AM solarwind: well beyond what a 3 phase BLDC servo
10:19 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: For sure. Great for low rpm direct drive use.
10:19 AM solarwind: exactly
10:19 AM solarwind: like a NEMA 17 rated for 0.5N•m is showing me > 2N•m torque easily
10:20 AM solarwind: FOC is _the_ way to drive motors
10:20 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Still no cheap 2.2kW or 7.5kW servos 🙂
10:20 AM solarwind: I disassembled the E6 kit: https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/e6-series-1000w-ac-servo-motor-kit-3000rpm-3-18nm-17-bit-encoder-ip65-e6-rs1000h2a2-m17s
10:20 AM solarwind: I found the OEM
10:20 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: 100% agreed on FOC, I only use inverters with FOC for driving AC motors.
10:20 AM solarwind: I'll email stepperonline if they can get a hold of the larger size
10:21 AM solarwind: the drive takes analog input, CAN bus, RS485
10:21 AM solarwind: I'm really impressed with it
10:21 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I would think that ethercat would be the way to go if building new.
10:21 AM solarwind: either EtherCAT or analog
10:22 AM solarwind: EtherCAT is just CANOPEN CiA402 profile over ethernet
10:22 AM solarwind: the only issue with CAN bus is low bandwidth
10:23 AM solarwind: it's only suitable for position mode or _maybe_ velocity, but not enough bandwidth for torque mode, or multiple axis in cyclic synchronized profiles
10:24 AM solarwind: I actually like this unspoken deal - the chinese can make hardware that does its job, and I will write the open source software
10:24 AM solarwind: just make it cheap and hackable so hobbyists can afford it
10:24 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Yes, base CANbus is way too slow. It is annoying to use even for sensors. The tire temperature monitors for my race car were going to be canbus but there really isn't enough bandwidth. Ended up going with rs485.
10:25 AM solarwind: CAN-FD can do 5Mbit/s
10:25 AM solarwind: there's also 10BASE-T1S shared medium single pair ethernet
10:26 AM solarwind: the problem with most UART implementations is the 115200 bit/s limit
10:26 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Actual throughput may vary. Plus if you have to do a custom receiver, then you may as well implement something better. I haven't found any telemetry systems that can do above 1Mbit CAN.
10:26 AM solarwind: ZincBoy[CAON][m] what data rate do your sensors support?
10:27 AM rmu: your typical usb serial adapter can do at least 2.5 mbps
10:27 AM solarwind: rmu that's not the point, the target you want to communicate usually is limited
10:27 AM solarwind: there's no inherent limit to UART itself
10:27 AM solarwind: nor differential signalling as far as we're concerned
10:27 AM rmu: but only for stupid reasons
10:27 AM solarwind: yes that's my point
10:28 AM solarwind: but CAN bus at least has a 1Mbit/s standard
10:29 AM solarwind: for anything like industrial control, 100M Ethernet is the way to go
10:29 AM solarwind: These days I don't bother with anything other than ethernet. Even for µC hello world printf, I send it over raw ethernet
10:29 AM rmu: seems c101horse8332[m] decided to start over again
10:29 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: The _throughput_ of my sensors is about 1Mbit. CAN bus overhead is very high and you can't get close to that on a 1Mbit link. I think I could get close to 200kbps using it.
10:30 AM solarwind: yeah that's true
10:30 AM solarwind: ZincBoy[CAON][m] what RS485 signalling rate do they support?
10:30 AM bjorkint0sh: <solarwind> I disassembled the E6 kit: https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/e6-series-1000w-ac-servo-motor-kit-3000rpm-3-18nm-17-bit-encoder-ip65-e6-rs1000h2a2-m17s why are they still using the parallel port?
10:31 AM solarwind: bjorkint0sh LOL it's just the connector for the encoder and I/O lines
10:31 AM c101horse8332[m]: ive done these still no go python3-pyqt5
10:31 AM c101horse8332[m]: [4:42 PM]
10:31 AM c101horse8332[m]: python3-pyqt5.qsci
10:31 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I run a 1Mbps rs485 with a custom protocol.
10:31 AM bjorkint0sh: still though. why? why not something else?
10:31 AM solarwind: bjorkint0sh it's got nothing to do with the parallel port. THey supply you a connector you can solder yourself
10:31 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Cheap
10:31 AM solarwind: it's a widely available connector
10:31 AM solarwind: it's proven, effective, easy to use
10:31 AM solarwind: and yes, cheap
10:32 AM solarwind: it's also reliable
10:32 AM solarwind: c101horse8332[m] I could help you with that if I had the time
10:32 AM bjorkint0sh: almost no new computers come with a parallel port anymore.
10:33 AM solarwind: it's widely used in industrial equipment
10:33 AM solarwind: it has nothing to do with the parallel port interface, it's a standard DB connector
10:33 AM c101horse8332[m]: that would be apriciated
10:33 AM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: so whats the matter. did it install?
10:33 AM c101horse8332[m]: it did
10:33 AM rmu: and now what?
10:33 AM c101horse8332[m]: hold on ill get you the error messages
10:33 AM * Tom_L bets dependency issues
10:34 AM bjorkint0sh: personally, I'll take tcl over python any day, because simplicity reigns. but python is more available.
10:34 AM solarwind: bjorkint0sh it's using RJ45 for RS485 and CAN
10:34 AM bjorkint0sh: solarwind, what are you moving around? a router?
10:34 AM solarwind: bjorkint0sh we just had an argument about TCL on ##electronics lol
10:35 AM solarwind: bjorkint0sh it's a servo drive dude
10:35 AM bjorkint0sh: yes I know what a servo is. but what project is it going into? just curious.
10:35 AM solarwind: RS485 and CAN use differential signalling over twisted pair. Ethernet cables are twisted pair
10:35 AM solarwind: bjorkint0sh oh, various things like vertical mills, lathes, robotic arms
10:35 AM unterhaus: got to go let a squirrel out of the chimbley
10:36 AM bjorkint0sh: you're building ALL those things right now?
10:36 AM unterhaus: I keep meaning to block the top of the chimney, but it's cold and windy up there
10:36 AM solarwind: no, I have those already, just need to convert them to CNC
10:36 AM bjorkint0sh: aah.
10:36 AM solarwind: well hybrid CNC/manual
10:36 AM c101horse8332[m]: `Traceback (most recent call last):... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/aa2d798087b2eca364f0015288642bb1ed7bc966>)
10:36 AM c101horse8332[m]: thats the first error that pops up
10:36 AM bjorkint0sh: unterhaus needs to go uberhaus.
10:37 AM * c101horse8332[m] posted a file: (9KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/VQUpSoHIWAGupSAIrqITrpVv/message.txt >
10:37 AM c101horse8332[m]: and there's the lcnc error
10:37 AM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: so you neet to install python3-pyqt5.qsvg
10:37 AM solarwind: c101horse8332[m] not loading the bindings
10:37 AM solarwind: my bad
10:37 AM solarwind: rmu's answer is right
10:38 AM c101horse8332[m]: so sudo apt-get install python3-pyqt5.qsvg?
10:38 AM unterhaus: bjorkint0sh wouldn't it be oberhaus?
10:38 AM rmu: i suppose so, modulo typos
10:38 AM bjorkint0sh: unterhaus, by all means! Oberhaus.
10:39 AM bjorkint0sh: wowel shift.
10:39 AM rmu: uber is über without umlaut, "above"
10:39 AM bjorkint0sh: c101horse8332[m], to be safe. sudo apt install python3-pyqt5.*
10:39 AM c101horse8332[m]: linuxcnc@raspberrypi:~ $ sudo apt-get install python3-pyqt5.qsvg... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/e40cffaf114d9faae985062c6e48afd251644193>)
10:40 AM bjorkint0sh: because it is *.qtsvg not qsvg
10:40 AM c101horse8332[m]: ah
10:40 AM rmu: typo qtsvq
10:41 AM c101horse8332[m]: its doing this now anyway
10:41 AM bjorkint0sh: sudo apt install python3-pyqt5.*
10:41 AM rmu: no don't that will install all kinds of junk
10:42 AM Tom_L: with limited space on the sd that's a bad idea
10:42 AM c101horse8332[m]: does that just tell it to do everything that starts with python3-pyqt5. ?
10:42 AM bjorkint0sh: c101horse8332[m], sorry, don't do that. I forgot you had limited space.
10:42 AM bjorkint0sh: but yes, that will dump everything.
10:42 AM * Tom_L thinks bjorkint0sh was a windows programmer in a past life
10:42 AM rmu: just install qtsvg, i don't think anything (much) will be missing after that
10:42 AM c101horse8332[m]: if nothing else ill start over from scratch since there's now a img that is just plug in and go
10:43 AM rmu: if you start over again i will put you on my personal block list ;)
10:43 AM bjorkint0sh: Tom_L, I've just gotten tired of debian annoyances and dependencies. Installing anything on FreeBSD was simple and sweet. and Joyous.
10:43 AM c101horse8332[m]: dunno how much space that .* takes but there's about 15gigs available
10:43 AM roycroft: you should apologize to bjorkint0sh for making that accusation
10:44 AM bjorkint0sh: c101horse8332[m], you won't need the extras. and apt is not smart enough to get rid of things you don't need.
10:45 AM rmu: bjorkint0sh: it is smart enough if it pulls in dependencies, but manual installation will mark it as manual, so it doesn't remove it
10:46 AM bjorkint0sh: also, debian tries very hard to be as stable as possible. so its packages are typically dated. it takes extra effort to get the absolute latest.
10:46 AM bjorkint0sh: it's a design decision but boy, do I miss FreeBSD's way of doing things.
10:47 AM rmu: switch to arch linux then, bleeding edge
10:47 AM bjorkint0sh: I just might.
10:48 AM sensille: i haven't closely followed the discussion, but to install all dependencies for qtdragon i ran lib/python/qtvcp/designer/install_script. is this what you are trying to achive?
10:48 AM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: you will also need python3-pyqt5.qtwebengine and python3-dbus.mainloop.pyqt5
10:49 AM _unreal_: so I'm considering this 3d printer
10:49 AM _unreal_: https://www.amazon.com/XYZPrinting-Wireless-printers-printing-upgradable/dp/B07D3FCKH1/ref=sr_1_10?crid=32ZATGMDD9XU7&keywords=3d+printer+machine+-resin&qid=1675615405&sprefix=3d+printer+machine+-resin%2Caps%2C123&sr=8-10
10:49 AM c101horse8332[m]: could you make me a list of every python3 thing i need?
10:49 AM c101horse8332[m]: also how does one stop an instalation when its doing its thing in the terminal?
10:50 AM bjorkint0sh: c101horse8332[m], it will tell you.
10:50 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: c101horse🇳🇱 (@_discord_181695718124290048:jauriarts.org) Just read the error messages and it will tell you if there is a missing package, then install it. Repeat. This is the normal manual install process on linux.
10:51 AM Tom_L: is this for qtdragon or probe basic?
10:51 AM bjorkint0sh: the commandline interface is truly your friend.
10:51 AM Tom_L: i thought he was chasing the probe basic trail
10:51 AM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: ctrl+c usually does
10:51 AM c101horse8332[m]: i hve no idea where in the error message to look, is it up top? down at the bottom? somewhere in between?
10:51 AM c101horse8332[m]: aye thanks
10:52 AM bjorkint0sh: c101horse8332[m], look for lines starting with E:
10:52 AM bjorkint0sh: as in...
10:52 AM c101horse8332[m]: qtdragon
10:52 AM c101horse8332[m]: we've established that probe basic will not run on rpi4
10:52 AM bjorkint0sh: E: Couldn't find any package by glob 'python3-pyqt5.qsvg'
10:52 AM c101horse8332[m]: oki
10:53 AM _unreal_: or this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09M9RVGZR/ref=twister_B08KZF76SP?_encoding=UTF8&th=1
10:53 AM bjorkint0sh: that's why I initially suggested the lazy process I mentioned above.
10:54 AM rmu: bjorkint0sh: qtsvg
10:54 AM bjorkint0sh: it's just a qt library to read SVG.
10:55 AM sensille: so install_script is not the answer? it worked for me
10:55 AM bjorkint0sh: rmu, I was showing horse101 how to find errors.
10:55 AM rmu: ok sorry
10:55 AM rmu: python3-pyqt5.opengl and pyqt5-dev-tools also needed
10:56 AM _unreal_: no thoughts on the 3d printers I posted?
10:57 AM bjorkint0sh: _unreal_, I think at around the $200 price point, they're fairly interchangeable.
10:58 AM rmu: python3-espeak, python3-poppler-qt5, python5-opencv
10:58 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: @unreal, why those printers?
10:58 AM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: The Bambu lab X1 seems to be the current go-to.
11:00 AM _unreal_: looking
11:01 AM bjorkint0sh: _unreal_, what do you intend to make?
11:02 AM _unreal_: one of my git repos but this is a project I'm working on https://github.com/berin-aquaquad/orange-pi-5
11:02 AM _unreal_: I can print it with my current printer but I would have to print the printed parts vertical AND support hell
11:05 AM bjorkint0sh: "I have been endlessly overwhelmed by my employer." <-- I'm busy earning money for later projects.
11:06 AM _unreal_: More like the "guy" I report too fucked up and comitted the company to a project that is going to be in the red NO MATTER WHAT.
11:06 AM _unreal_: custom luxury yacht stuff.
11:07 AM bjorkint0sh: luxury yacht? that's for oligarchs. multiply your fees by 10000
11:07 AM bjorkint0sh: they're just using stolen money anyway. they don't care.
11:07 AM _unreal_: yep
11:09 AM rmu: so got qtdragon working on raspbian
11:09 AM rmu: some colors are a bit strange but seems to work so far
11:16 AM * c101horse8332[m] uploaded an image: (2855KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/nViDvTZgHGgpRBRFriuQYeZZ/IMG_20230205_181315.jpg >
11:16 AM c101horse8332[m]: I think i need to be looking in here right?
11:18 AM rmu: it literally says what you should do
11:18 AM rmu: "try in terminal:"
11:18 AM rmu: also i listed all packages you will need
11:21 AM c101horse8332[m]: ah thanks i missed that
11:22 AM c101horse8332[m]: linuxcnc@raspberrypi:~ $ sudo apt install python3-pyqt5.opengl... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/e38ed382b76dd9d6361cbad7500cf4ed1041bbe3>)
11:24 AM rmu: qtopengl instead of opengl
11:26 AM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: if you get it running, it would be nice if you publish your notes on the forum
11:27 AM bjorkint0sh: solarwind, what shade were the ##electrons casting at tcl?
11:28 AM unterhaus: squirrel was ungrateful and bit me
11:29 AM rmu: tcl really has some ugly warts like "call by name" for arrays. uplevel.
11:30 AM bjorkint0sh: rmu, but *all* languages have flaws by virtue of their very existence. not a single one is flawless. and when they are flawless, they suffer from the deep offensive stench of academese.
11:30 AM bjorkint0sh: which makes them Useless. with a capital U.
11:30 AM c101horse8332[m]: what notes?
11:30 AM bjorkint0sh: c101horse8332[m], notes on what you needed to do to get the whole thing working.
11:30 AM bjorkint0sh: for next time.
11:30 AM c101horse8332[m]: oh
11:31 AM unterhaus: everyone wants their own language, sometimes they make it 2 languages like python 2 and 3
11:31 AM c101horse8332[m]: i pmuch never take notes
11:31 AM bjorkint0sh: c101horse8332[m], guaranteed to forget :-)
11:31 AM c101horse8332[m]: correct
11:31 AM unterhaus: i'm bad about taking notes, that's why people hate me
11:31 AM bjorkint0sh: unterhaus, was that why the squirrel bit you too?
11:32 AM unterhaus: when I let that squirrel loose, it got to a safe distance and yelled "take notes!"
11:33 AM * bjorkint0sh hopes charlie horse the 101st is taking notes.
11:33 AM rmu: bjorkint0sh: i happend to use tcl/tk back days before it was available on windows and macos
11:33 AM unterhaus: the worst part was I knew it was going to bite me when it became obvious I wasn't going to let loose
11:34 AM c101horse8332[m]: nah, and itll come back to bite me in the ass
11:34 AM c101horse8332[m]: everytime i do it im pretty sure its the last time i need to do it
11:34 AM rmu: c101horse8332[m] probably is a lost cause if he didn't take notes. whatever. i'm off.
11:36 AM bjorkint0sh: c101horse8332[m], when you get it working, type this into the terminal: history > how_i_got_it_working
11:36 AM bjorkint0sh: then edit how_i_got_it_working in a text editor and remove all the errors.
11:36 AM c101horse8332[m]: will copying my whole sd card and dumping it on the interwebs work?\
11:37 AM bjorkint0sh: terrible idea.
11:37 AM bjorkint0sh: history > much_better_idea
11:37 AM unterhaus: you could probably go through this channels logs and figure it out
11:37 AM c101horse8332[m]: ^
11:38 AM bjorkint0sh: c101horse8332[m], I don't know how familiar you are with the commandline interface, but knowing how to use it is a bonafide super power which pays greater dividends than any crypto you've ever been offered.
11:39 AM c101horse8332[m]: im about as much idiot with it as it gets
11:40 AM c101horse8332[m]: im usually working with mechanical stuff
11:40 AM bjorkint0sh: you've gotten quite far. but at some point do familiarize yourself with a few of the basics.
11:40 AM bjorkint0sh: it's a very powerful tool.
11:43 AM bjorkint0sh: c101horse8332[m], think of the commandline interface as a multi-axis machine tool for handling any form of text.
11:45 AM bjorkint0sh: if you first show a lathe to a completely new person, they'd probably say something like, "so it just spins stuff?"
11:45 AM bjorkint0sh: little do they know.
11:47 AM c101horse8332[m]: this couldve gone so much faster if my wifi was up to scratch
11:48 AM bjorkint0sh: hmm. can you connect directly to ethernet?
11:48 AM bjorkint0sh: wifi is inherently slow.
11:48 AM c101horse8332[m]: not at the mill
11:49 AM c101horse8332[m]: i can put the pi next to the router and have it download stuff real quick, when i do it on the kitchen table it takes ff'n long, and in the shop its somewhat bearable
11:50 AM bjorkint0sh: c101horse8332[m], see if you can plug it in directly while configuring things.
11:50 AM bjorkint0sh: and then move it once it's done.
11:53 AM c101horse8332[m]: problem is im constantly checking if it work or not after i've installed some more stuff since i dont know what everything i need is
11:54 AM c101horse8332[m]: running back and forth to the shop empty handed is getting old
11:54 AM bjorkint0sh: that's okay. you have the most important quality for dealing with this sort of thing, which is patience and persistence.
11:54 AM c101horse8332[m]: i dont wanna be carrying the pi,cables,screen, yadayadayada
11:54 AM Tom_L: bjorkint0sh, could be a problem if he's set up a 10.10... static ip
11:55 AM Davefrom3DPandME: the pi4 image doesn't seem to work with new pi4, it says os image is out of date and can't start#
11:56 AM bjorkint0sh: Davefrom3DPandME, hah. talk to c101horse8332[m]!
11:56 AM bjorkint0sh: he's an expert!
11:56 AM bjorkint0sh: Davefrom3DPandME, how old is the firmware on your device?
11:56 AM Tom_L: which pi4 image?
11:56 AM Davefrom3DPandME: not sure, it was a brand new pi4 that arrived a few weeks ago
11:56 AM Davefrom3DPandME: so i'd guess pretty new
11:56 AM c101horse8332[m]: my patience has run out, im running on pure stubbornness now
11:57 AM Tom_L: good that finally kicked in
11:57 AM * c101horse8332[m] posted a file: (12KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/DtdYaojckcZxAZkAiliYdgcY/message.txt >
11:57 AM * Davefrom3DPandME uploaded an image: (15KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/eBouKwQpJZfrmJTmcBzgXMVo/image.png >
11:57 AM Davefrom3DPandME: the one linked on the downloads page
11:58 AM c101horse8332[m]: i guess all i have to do now is fiddlefuck around in the ini file till it works?
11:58 AM c101horse8332[m]: hold on
11:59 AM c101horse8332[m]: try this one
11:59 AM c101horse8332[m]: welcome to the pi fuckery
11:59 AM Davefrom3DPandME: okay, i'm downloading now
11:59 AM Davefrom3DPandME: mmmm
11:59 AM c101horse8332[m]: that should work out of the box
12:00 PM c101horse8332[m]: pw is cnc
12:00 PM Davefrom3DPandME: i saw an image available on the website and remora stuff with instructions to install it manually so i was like boom lets go this route hah...not been so simple thus far as both routes failed
12:00 PM c101horse8332[m]: only runs axis out of the box, no browser
12:00 PM c101horse8332[m]: same
12:01 PM c101horse8332[m]: im currently trying to get qt dragon working on pi
12:01 PM Tom_L: there are some deb installs below that but would require you to have a preempt-rt os already
12:01 PM c101horse8332[m]: probe basic doesnt work
12:01 PM unterhaus: the problem with making instructions is something is already installed and you forget
12:02 PM Tom_L: that's why you do it 2x
12:02 PM unterhaus: it's not really a problem if you can read error messages
12:03 PM Davefrom3DPandME: mmm yeah i'm only medium comfortable in a linux command line environment
12:04 PM c101horse8332[m]: im not at all
12:04 PM unterhaus: well, you can always give an error report and let people fix their instructions
12:04 PM Tom_L: really the only way they will know
12:04 PM c101horse8332[m]: im really greatfull for these people here to have enough patience to help the unknowing
12:05 PM Tom_L: you will be them in a couple years
12:06 PM unterhaus: it would be nice to have a bdi of probe basic, because every newbie seems to want that
12:06 PM Tom_L: it's kindof a foreign language in here
12:06 PM Tom_L: welcome but not well understood
12:07 PM Tom_L: seems matrix is where you go for that help
12:07 PM unterhaus: everything is in flux because of the switch in python from 2 to 3, I can see why the uninitiated would be confused about that
12:07 PM Davefrom3DPandME: when did that switch start to happen? 3 has been out quite a while
12:07 PM Tom_L: that will be a never ending cycle
12:08 PM Tom_L: 2.9 is 3 all the way
12:08 PM unterhaus: devs were reluctant to switch as long as they didn't have to
12:08 PM Tom_L: some of the lesser used packages may still be lagging
12:09 PM unterhaus: I was surprised at how much of qtpyvcp was still in 2
12:09 PM Tom_L: the push to go mainstream is helping get that done
12:12 PM unterhaus: isn't everything in master in py3?
12:13 PM unterhaus: i don't know about 2.9
12:13 PM Tom_L: yes
12:14 PM Tom_L: well it may be up to 2.10 now but 2.9 fwd is 3
12:17 PM * c101horse8332[m] posted a file: (13KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/WEWLVYUQrARiByhTKDFcsrSl/message.txt >
12:17 PM c101horse8332[m]: i made the error report longer by fixing stuff lol
12:19 PM unterhaus: that's python2 code, where is it from?
12:19 PM unterhaus: is qtdragon part of the main distribution?
12:19 PM c101horse8332[m]: from my trying to get qt dragon working on the pi
12:19 PM c101horse8332[m]: no clue
12:20 PM Tom_L: unterhaus, i think it is but i've never used it
12:20 PM unterhaus: how can you have no clue, how did it get on your computer?
12:20 PM unterhaus: if it's part of the main distribution, we should submit an issue
12:21 PM unterhaus: I have a monitor sitting in front of the monitor I need to use or I'd look
12:21 PM Tom_L: it's not in the gui list in the docs
12:21 PM Tom_L: is it a newwer qtpyvcp thing?
12:22 PM Tom_L: newer
12:22 PM c101horse8332[m]: ill i know is that ive been trying all day yesterday to get something with a probe screen working on the pi and all day today without luck
12:22 PM travis_farmer[m]: qtdragon comes with linuxcnc IIRC
12:23 PM c101horse8332[m]: well, it dont work out of the box
12:23 PM Tom_L: The name of the user interface to use. Valid options may include: axis, touchy, gmoccapy, gscreen, tklinuxcnc, qtvcp
12:23 PM travis_farmer[m]: "qtvcp qtdragon"
12:24 PM c101horse8332[m]: from what i understand qt dragon runs on qtvcp
12:24 PM sensille: getting probing to work is terribly hard for a newbie
12:24 PM c101horse8332[m]: i've had it working on probe basic
12:24 PM travis_farmer[m]: linuxcnc.org/docs/2.9/html/gui/qtdragon.html
12:25 PM sensille: and i still think the probing routines in qtdragon are quite weird
12:25 PM travis_farmer[m]: it works out of the box for PC, but maybe not for Rpi
12:25 PM rmu: where does config frees come from
12:25 PM unterhaus: yeah, I have a vanilla 2.9pre1 and it's there
12:25 PM rmu: that contains python2 code
12:25 PM Tom_L: the same section in 2.10: The file name of the executable providing the user interface to use. Prominent valid options are (all in lower case): axis, touchy, gmoccapy, gscreen, tklinuxcnc, qtvcp, qtvcp-qtdragon or qtvcp-qtplasmac.
12:25 PM rmu: /home/linuxcnc/linuxcnc/configs/frees/python/toplevel.py
12:26 PM c101horse8332[m]: what you mean?
12:26 PM Tom_L: so somewhere between 2.8 & 2.10 it became 'official'
12:26 PM rmu: where does this file come from
12:26 PM c101horse8332[m]: that came from my previous pc
12:27 PM rmu: do you have a toolchanger on your mill?
12:27 PM unterhaus: I think it must come from qtvcp
12:27 PM travis_farmer[m]: unterhaus: it does
12:27 PM c101horse8332[m]: no
12:27 PM rmu: how did you create config on your PC?
12:27 PM Tom_L: toplevel.py is part of remap
12:28 PM unterhaus: yes all qtvcp that I have tried so far have this error
12:29 PM c101horse8332[m]: i think i started with pnc thing from the lcnc tweaking it until i was happy with it, its been a while
12:29 PM unterhaus: this is not a c101horse issue, it's distributed with lcnc
12:29 PM rmu: so i would create a new config starting from simulation on the pi, and then edit .ini and .hal files and update it with values from PC
12:30 PM rmu: your PC config contains old python code that doesn't work anymore with recent linuxcnc
12:30 PM unterhaus: oh, I have pre0, I wonder if it's fixed in pre1
12:31 PM rmu: i' talking to c101horse8332[m]
12:31 PM c101horse8332[m]: how do i see which one i have?
12:31 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: ?
12:32 PM rmu: recent linuxcnc uses python3, python2->3 was a very painful transition for everyone that took a decade or more
12:32 PM rmu: 8 dead this weekend in avalanches in austria
12:33 PM c101horse8332[m]: i was on about the pre0 pre1 how do i see which on i have
12:33 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: look at end of your error message, it says "1:2.9.0~pre0"
12:34 PM c101horse8332[m]: ah
12:35 PM travis_farmer[m]: random thought, i wonder if QT even runs on a Rpi. seems like everyone that tries it has issues
12:35 PM rmu: dpkg -s linuxcnc-uspace would also work
12:35 PM c101horse8332[m]: so, i'd have to make a whole new ini?
12:35 PM rmu: qtdragon works fine on the pi
12:35 PM c101horse8332[m]: or do i have to do everything over
12:35 PM travis_farmer[m]: ok
12:36 PM unterhaus: apparently it's fixed in pre1
12:36 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: generate new config from simulation, and then edit .ini and .hal files
12:36 PM rmu: update with values from your pc config
12:36 PM rmu: but don't touch remap stdglue & co
12:36 PM c101horse8332[m]: where even is that part?
12:37 PM rmu: where is what? the config is wherever you put it
12:37 PM rmu: /home/linuxcnc/linuxcnc/configs/frees ?
12:39 PM unterhaus: qtdragon doesn't work on 2.9pre0, which is what he has
12:39 PM * travis_farmer[m] prepares to brave the cold, and goes out to shop...
12:39 PM rmu: hmm
12:39 PM c101horse8332[m]: how do i go to pre1
12:40 PM rmu: i'm on compiled latest git
12:42 PM unterhaus: I have pre1 and it works fine
12:42 PM unterhaus: I also have pre0 and it doesn't work
12:43 PM c101horse8332[m]: so, id need pre1 how do i upgrade to that?
12:43 PM Tom_L: rmu, what is he remapping?
12:44 PM rmu: Tom_L: nothing, seems that is a remnant from his pc config, probably default file
12:44 PM Tom_L: ok
12:44 PM rmu: (i suppose)
12:44 PM Tom_L: if he were, he would need the remap line in the config
12:44 PM rmu: no toolchanger
12:45 PM rmu: i would check where that file is coming from (look at date), but not easy to remote-guide somebody with unknown linux-fu through that
12:48 PM unterhaus: the linux-fu he needs right now is how to get 2.9pre1
12:49 PM c101horse8332[m]: what i now need is a coffee
12:50 PM unterhaus: I need a coffee too, but it would make my heart go pitter patter
12:51 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: try qtdrageon from linuxcnc simulation config menu, if it works there that would be useful info
12:54 PM unterhaus: that's what I did and it fails with the same error. I'm pretty sure we have the same install
12:54 PM * c101horse8332[m] posted a file: (8KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/AdsDpOMAQpprklsrQWwchocC/message.txt >
12:55 PM c101horse8332[m]: thats the qtdragon sim error
12:58 PM rmu: does it say anything else?
12:59 PM rmu: i don't see anything except segfault
01:00 PM c101horse8332[m]: nope
01:00 PM unterhaus: that's weird, my errors are totally different
01:00 PM c101horse8332[m]: maybe because i've been installing stuff to try to get it to work?
01:01 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: where did you get the linuxcnc packages? here? http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/dists/buster/2.9-rtpreempt/binary-armhf/
01:01 PM unterhaus: you probably started a different config than I did, there are a lot of them.
01:02 PM c101horse8332[m]: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Vgj2rMgG_gdNWx_5OKJco115P56dgIx4/view?usp=sharing here
01:02 PM unterhaus: my error messages were better :)
01:03 PM unterhaus: he's running bullseye, I think
01:04 PM rmu: oh thats the image. ok.
01:04 PM c101horse8332[m]: yup
01:05 PM unterhaus: I thought there were some bullseye debs
01:05 PM rmu: i also installed that image and it doesn't offer qtdragon
01:06 PM Tom_L: heh maybe for good reason
01:07 PM unterhaus: 2.9pre1 has it though
01:07 PM unterhaus: I thought paste was ctrl-shift-v
01:08 PM rmu: buildbot is arm 32 bit, image is 64 bit
01:08 PM unterhaus: this terminal is awful
01:10 PM unterhaus: why is there a desktop enviornment that comes with a terminal with no cut and paste?
01:10 PM Tom_L: xfce?
01:11 PM unterhaus: yeah
01:11 PM Tom_L: heh i don't use it
01:11 PM unterhaus: the person that built the debian 11 for pi used it
01:11 PM rmu: middle mouse button / scroll wheel
01:12 PM rmu: xfce4-terminal has shortcuts C-S-v and C-S-c
01:12 PM Tom_L: stand on your head, spin 3 times, click your heels then paste
01:13 PM unterhaus: who wakes up in the morning and decides they need to change something like that and are they close enough to injure me?
01:14 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: seems you have to build linuxcnc yourself. https://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/code/building-linuxcnc.html
01:15 PM c101horse8332[m]: ah dang it
01:15 PM rmu: unterhaus: thats the original xterm
01:15 PM c101horse8332[m]: there goes a whole weekend of, progress?
01:15 PM rmu: and a unicode-xterm-version. not recommended
01:15 PM Tom_L: of course
01:15 PM roycroft: you can configure just about any x11 app to use any key bindings you wish
01:16 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: sorry but leaving the well-trodden path without a map can be dangerous
01:16 PM c101horse8332[m]: so its back to raging about the rt kernel not building
01:17 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: no, go get git, checkout the source, use the force
01:17 PM rmu: this seems to work i just checked https://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/code/building-linuxcnc.html#Satisfying-Build-Dependencies
01:17 PM c101horse8332[m]: ok, so, go to the basement, open the fridge, and get a beer?
01:17 PM Tom_L: just don't look at the dark side
01:18 PM c101horse8332[m]: sounds like i can make that work
01:18 PM Tom_L: or 3
01:18 PM c101horse8332[m]: what do i start with tho
01:18 PM c101horse8332[m]: i suppose i need to put some sort of img on the sd no?
01:19 PM rmu: no you leave the image as is
01:19 PM rmu: install git
01:19 PM rmu: "apt install git"
01:19 PM rmu: then clone linuxcnc git repo
01:19 PM rmu: the do "git switch 2.9"
01:20 PM Tom_L: checkout
01:20 PM travis_farmer[m]: i tried running my spindle for an hour (total) and even using a heat-gun blowing down the fan to blow heated air into the cooling passages. the cylender is moving inside, but the tool-holder i think is stuck in the spindle cone. i ran out of ideas and came back inside. short of taking the spindle off the machine and bringing it inside over night, i don't know what else to do. i don't want to pry on the tool-holder, of course...
01:20 PM rmu: then look at "satisfying build deps", do as it says
01:20 PM c101horse8332[m]: im confuse
01:21 PM rmu: so, you have a pi4 system that is running with realtime kernel. don't change that.
01:22 PM c101horse8332[m]: then what do i do
01:22 PM Tom_L: there will be a rather lengthy dependency list too btw
01:22 PM rmu: follow https://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/code/building-linuxcnc.html
01:23 PM rmu: dependencies will be displayed in the "Satisfying build dependencies" step, install is only copy/paste away
01:24 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Prying on the tool holder won't work. It is held in with finger/balls that retract into a bore and retain the pull stud. You would need to overcome the retention springs and for an ISO 30 that is over 1000lbs force. Something will get damaged before it releases. I would bring it inside and let it warmup and see if it works then.
01:25 PM travis_farmer[m]: ZincBoy[CA, ON]: figures...
01:25 PM rmu: travis_farmer[m]: are you sure the toolchanger doesn't need some sort of "eject" air?
01:25 PM travis_farmer[m]: it has it, rmu
01:26 PM travis_farmer[m]: i can hear it trying
01:26 PM rmu: my tool clamping mechanism has a cylinder with a claw/drawbar and additionally an air passage into the taper that kinda ejects the tool if it is stuck
01:27 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: The air passage into the taper is to clear chips.
01:27 PM rmu: also helps keep the taper free of chips while changing tools
01:27 PM travis_farmer[m]: i think the oil-grease it was shipped with, froze it into the cone. i should have cleaned it off...
01:27 PM c101horse8332[m]: `linuxcnc@raspberrypi:~ $ git clone git://github.com/linuxcnc/linuxcnc.git linuxcnc-dev... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/aa14cb837f4d1c086877cd1939aa442d4e0981f5>)
01:27 PM c101horse8332[m]: sigh
01:27 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: You didn't clean the taper/tool holder before you put it in?
01:28 PM travis_farmer[m]: no...
01:28 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Ouch.
01:28 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Don't do that 🙂
01:28 PM * travis_farmer[m] hangs head in shame
01:28 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: compiling linuxcnc will take some time anyways, so i would recommend taking the pi to somewhere where you have reliable net
01:28 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Shouldn't cause it to be stuck though. Just will kill the run-out.
01:29 PM rmu: also build instructions are missing a "apt install automake" if it is not alread there
01:29 PM travis_farmer[m]: ZincBoy[CA, ON]: it was kinda sticky oil, though
01:29 PM c101horse8332[m]: put the release air on and while holding the tool holder from falling give it a sharp whack with a nylon face tappy tap tap hammer
01:30 PM c101horse8332[m]: yeah, i've put is somewhere else now
01:31 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: There should be enough travel on the drawbar to pop the tool holder out. On mine the tool holder is ejected about 0.05" and would fall right out if the changer arm wasn't there.
01:32 PM travis_farmer[m]: hmmm...
01:33 PM travis_farmer[m]: Monday is supposed to get up to 40F, so i will see what i can do then. if i get it out, i will make sure and clean all oil out of the cone and off the tool holder
01:34 PM c101horse8332[m]: linuxcnc@raspberrypi:~ $ git clone git://github.com/linuxcnc/linuxcnc.git linuxcnc-dev
01:34 PM c101horse8332[m]: Cloning into 'linuxcnc-dev'...
01:34 PM c101horse8332[m]: fatal: unable to connect to github.com:
01:34 PM c101horse8332[m]: github.com[0: 140.82.121.4]: errno=Connection timed out
01:34 PM c101horse8332[m]: its got full internetwifiaccess
01:34 PM c101horse8332[m]: still nogo
01:37 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: you could also ask the forum guy who built the image if he makes one more current with qtdragon
01:39 PM travis_farmer[m]: c101horse🇳🇱#8332: can you open github in a browser? i wonder if git is just having issues...
01:40 PM c101horse8332[m]: on where travis? the pi?
01:40 PM travis_farmer[m]: yes
01:40 PM c101horse8332[m]: the pi doesnt have a browser
01:41 PM travis_farmer[m]: should have Firefox
01:41 PM c101horse8332[m]: im back to going to the chuck shit at the wall and seeing what sticks aproach
01:42 PM travis_farmer[m]: hmmm....
01:43 PM rmu: use the pc, pi will make additional troubles
01:43 PM c101horse8332[m]: https://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/debian-11-emc.html JT's guide works up until now
01:43 PM roycroft: the pi has the browser you install, i should think
01:44 PM rmu: the image has no browser installed, you can install "apt install firefox-esr"
01:45 PM * roycroft doesn't understand why a linuxcnc machine would need a web browser, but it's certainly avaialable if desired
01:46 PM rmu: if it has c development stuff it can also have a browser
01:48 PM travis_farmer[m]: i don't know. i grabbed a random motherboard, threw some parts at it, and got LinuxCNC 2.9 pre1 running on it, right from JT's debian 11 guide. the PC didn't have great numbers, but it runs LinuxCNC, along with other programs running in the background. i understand the compact nature of the Rpi, but it seems to bring a lot of issues with it. maybe it is just my opinion...
01:48 PM roycroft: that sounds more like a development machine than a cnc controller
01:49 PM travis_farmer[m]: mine? it works
01:49 PM roycroft: and installing and using a compiler on a rpi sounds painful at the very least :)
01:49 PM rmu: it's not that bad on a pi4
01:49 PM c101horse8332[m]: oh it is
01:50 PM rmu: linuxcnc is mainly c, that compiles quickly. rust or extensive modern c++ would be rally painful.
01:51 PM roycroft: i've never tried compiling linuxcnc on a pi
01:52 PM rmu: just takes a couple minutes
01:52 PM roycroft: i've always installed a cross-compiler on an amd64 machine with a reasonable amount of horsepower and memory
01:54 PM travis_farmer[m]: roycroft: not everyone can afford to buy a bunch of hardware to see what works best with LinuxCNC. i threw together what i had, got usable numbers with it, and put it into use. and yes, it is a development machine, but it works.
01:55 PM c101horse8332[m]: its what i did, multiple times, and i guess most of you know how that went
01:56 PM travis_farmer[m]: sorry, but i took "that sounds more like a development machine than a cnc controller" as an insult to everything i am working on
01:57 PM travis_farmer[m]: signing off
01:59 PM * roycroft did not mean to insult
02:22 PM sensille: last decade's development machine is todays cnc controller :)
02:23 PM sensille: at least that's what i did
02:45 PM c101horse8332[m]: guys what do i do when i have unmet build depenensies?
02:45 PM rmu: install them
02:45 PM rmu: what is missing
02:46 PM c101horse8332[m]: linuxcnc@raspberrypi:~/build $ dpkg-checkbuilddeps
02:46 PM c101horse8332[m]: dpkg-checkbuilddeps: error: Unmet build dependencies: libusb-1.0-0-dev fonts-dej avu graphviz
02:46 PM c101horse8332[m]: https://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/debian-11-emc.html
02:46 PM c101horse8332[m]: going off of that
02:46 PM rmu: apt install ...
02:46 PM rmu: sudo apt install
02:48 PM c101horse8332[m]: linuxcnc@raspberrypi:~/build $ sudo apt install libusb-1.0-0-dev fonts-dejavu graphiz... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/c04158bdef37ecd1444825f0b16992cdb104a8e9>)
02:49 PM rmu: graphviz
02:49 PM rmu: missing v
02:50 PM c101horse8332[m]: thankyou
02:51 PM rmu: np
02:52 PM Tom_L: persistent.. i'll give him that
02:55 PM c101horse8332[m]: i've said it before, im running on pure stubbornness by now
02:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I can't recall someone in recent history that got as much attention with off topic questions. Which award do you deserve?
03:00 PM Tom_L: now we're taking target practice at russian balloons
03:01 PM unterhaus: sidewinders aren't as cheap as they used to be either
03:02 PM XXCoder: i just find it funny that its first f-22 air-air kill. a fancy ballon
03:04 PM Tom_L: 'weather balloon'
03:04 PM Tom_L: uh huh
03:09 PM c101horse8332[m]: that balloon was probably aliexpress' answer to amazons delivery drones
03:13 PM roguish[m]: there's a 2nd one ..... https://www.businessinsider.com/second-chinese-surveillance-balloon-spotted-over-latin-america-2023-2?op=1
03:21 PM unterhaus: the problem with the debian pi image on the forum is that the development dependencies take forever to download
03:22 PM unterhaus: partially when I didn't notice it was waiting for me to hit enter
03:24 PM unterhaus: Cap'n the most recent Dell I bought used for $25 gets about 35 microsecond latency
03:24 PM unterhaus: it's also the smallest one yet
03:25 PM unterhaus: makes me want to give up on pi's and go buy another couple of them
03:26 PM c101horse8332[m]: makes me wonder why i've been having so much trouble with pc's
03:27 PM unterhaus: I guess there are a lot of pc's that aren't that great
03:27 PM rmu: IMO the pi make sense (and only then) if you want to use SPI to communicate with 7c80/7c81 or something remora-like
03:27 PM unterhaus: I think I got some other small dells that had the problem with the smi
03:28 PM rmu: with current availability, if you don't already have one, it makes no sense at all
03:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: i agree, used PC's have the power, low cost and availability for hobby CNC. For commercial applications either a new x86 or ARM PC since many customers frown on used controllers for machines sold as new.
03:28 PM unterhaus: I have 2 pi4
03:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and most people here are just hobbyists
03:29 PM unterhaus: It's not that hard to find a new x86 with good latency is it?
03:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: here being LCNC users
03:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: all the new AMD stuff is <20uS base thread, and nobody is using a LPT card, so servo threads <100uS is no problem with most new combos
03:31 PM c101horse8332[m]: its not like i've been getting the crappiest pc's out there, dells, hp's, hell i've even got a pc that used to be monitoring a gas turbine
03:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: you just need to watch out for PC's targeted at office applications where they ship with a crippled BIOS that doesn't let you kill power management
03:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it makes support easier since the users can't access common BIOS settings
03:32 PM unterhaus: the $25 dell came out of the library, I think
03:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: just things like setting the clock
03:33 PM unterhaus: I didn't turn off power management either
03:33 PM c101horse8332[m]: so no office pc's?
03:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: but we also see LCNC hobbyists that want <30uS servo thread latency because they just want it
03:35 PM unterhaus: I want <10uS but I'm willing to take something a lot higher
03:35 PM travis_farmer[m]: sorry for my behavior earlier, i tend to overreact when i believe i have been insulted :-(
03:35 PM unterhaus: I wish you could run rtai with mesa ethernet cards
03:36 PM c101horse8332[m]: GOD DAMN IT, build failed 😦
03:36 PM rmu: oh
03:36 PM rmu: what does it say
03:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: wait don't say yet, let us all make guesses
03:37 PM c101horse8332[m]: aight go ahead, guess
03:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: oh never mind they don't like fun here
03:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hasta banana
03:37 PM unterhaus: people are so serious nowadays
03:37 PM c101horse8332[m]: ` install -d debian/linuxcnc-doc-de/usr/share/doc/linuxcnc-doc-de... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/c191c3e8477182f811b33aab467a1cc9185f8282>)
03:38 PM rmu: no idea. did you install asciidoc?
03:38 PM c101horse8332[m]: the pi is lucky we arent allowed guns over here
03:38 PM rmu: intltool?
03:38 PM unterhaus: I lost track of what you were installing
03:38 PM rmu: just guessing
03:38 PM unterhaus: do it nodocs
03:38 PM c101horse8332[m]: does that mean start over?
03:38 PM rmu: hes building packages
03:38 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yeah the docs take up 800% of the build times
03:38 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: did you install asciidoc? intltool?
03:39 PM unterhaus: JT says that the docs haven't built since 2.9
03:39 PM rmu: maybe that is missing, that would cause build of docs to fail and isn't checked in builddeps IIRC
03:39 PM Tom_L: configure no-docs
03:40 PM c101horse8332[m]: thats a good question, and honestly, i have no clue
03:40 PM Tom_L: syntax may be a bit iffy
03:40 PM rmu: debian/configure no-docs
03:40 PM Tom_L: yes
03:40 PM c101horse8332[m]: im going off of that
03:40 PM c101horse8332[m]: https://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/debian-11-emc.html
03:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: IMHO the docs should be in a separate build for people with extra time on their hands or available as a package
03:40 PM rmu: apt install asciidoc intltool
03:41 PM rmu: with sudo of course
03:41 PM c101horse8332[m]: well, here we go, once again for the first time
03:41 PM unterhaus: from the build directory issue the command debian/configure no-docs
03:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I think they left the build dependency check for docs in just for fun
03:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or left it out
03:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe it's random
03:42 PM rmu: "they" is very funny
03:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 'some people"
03:42 PM travis_farmer[m]: even on my PC, i had to build no-docs
03:43 PM c101horse8332[m]: seeing others suffer is great fun innit
03:43 PM unterhaus: I seem to recall some hate about the docs not building on the dev list
03:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: faith based builds
03:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: this is why some people have created complete Rpi4 images, to avoid the fun
03:45 PM c101horse8332[m]: building docs is for people that enjoy SM
03:45 PM XXCoder: high tech SM interesting
03:45 PM unterhaus: I might like the docs on the pi because I have significantly worse latency with firefox open
03:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: c101horse🇳🇱#8332: i didn't see all the backlog, why are you building vs just downloading and copying?
03:46 PM unterhaus: nobody has a deb available
03:46 PM XXCoder: firefox does that yeah. combined with 4k video of fireplace is great way to test latency along with few glxgear
03:46 PM c101horse8332[m]: because for some weird reason i cant get anything working the normal way
03:46 PM rmu: CaptHindsight[m]: ready made images didn't work, one has hardware issues with rpi (too new), the other doesn't include qtdragon
03:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: which deb for the Rpi4?
03:47 PM unterhaus: 2.9pre1
03:47 PM unterhaus: for debian 11 64bit
03:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ah then you just need to use the older version image
03:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or have "fun"
03:47 PM rmu: the "older version image" doesn't boot
03:47 PM c101horse8332[m]: i might've been able to just download something, but for some reason i was not able to get the rt kernel to work
03:47 PM unterhaus: older image has problems
03:48 PM rmu: it says "get newer software from rasperrypi.org"
03:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ah, so then you just need to use different hardware
03:48 PM rmu: arguing like this will end in "you need to get a different life"
03:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: who wants ti support broadcom anyway? what have they ever done for us?
03:48 PM unterhaus: Cap'n, you're going to make him cry
03:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: indoor plumbing?
03:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: roads?
03:49 PM c101horse8332[m]: can i? or do i have to take one by force?
03:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's not like you're in a corner
03:49 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: whats status?
03:49 PM c101horse8332[m]: compiling
03:49 PM c101horse8332[m]: i think
03:50 PM * c101horse8332[m] uploaded an image: (36KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/ByMnwnMyqBBmjkmwjnzMNHPD/image.png >
03:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: great learning experience, afterall that is what LCNC is all about
03:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and some people even machine with it
03:50 PM c101horse8332[m]: im trying to get to the latter point
03:51 PM c101horse8332[m]: ive got carparts to make
03:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: did they change the Rpi4 again?
03:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: if only there was some sort of firmware that could configure the hardware and act as a kernel bootloader
03:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and could be standard so that all one had to worry about was their OS and applications
03:53 PM c101horse8332[m]: if only i wasnt so inept with anything linux based
03:53 PM unterhaus: they must have had an inline change in the cpu on rpi4
03:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: nah how you learn
03:54 PM unterhaus: the newer rpi4 I have won't boot from Andy's 32 bit image
03:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: c101horse🇳🇱#8332: it can take days of building at times for experienced devs to get things working right
03:55 PM unterhaus: remember when all of linux was like this?
03:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: did they fix it?
03:56 PM unterhaus: not all, but anything a little offbeat had to be built from source
03:56 PM unterhaus: we're spoiled now, even things like lcnc is usually distributed as a deb
03:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: don't worry they won't fix the Rpi's since they will never share the specs and source to booting and related registers
03:57 PM * CloudEvil wonders if most linux software is not sourced from the google play store.
03:57 PM CloudEvil: ^now sourced
03:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: how dare you expect to control your borrowed hardware
03:57 PM unterhaus: it was really great when a package had 10 dependencies, all of which had to be built and installed
03:58 PM unterhaus: soon all of linux will be available from the microsoft app store, and I'm not kidding
04:00 PM CloudEvil: (In that android comprises the majority of linux systems deployed to users)
04:00 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I await my Gentoo images from M$
04:00 PM rmu: it has a reason you can buy CNC machines and get support
04:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and when Linux on the desktop finally arrives
04:01 PM unterhaus: no gentoo, msft has 1. Ubuntu ; 2. Debian ; 3. Kali Linux ; 4. openSUSE ; 5. Alpine Linux.
04:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: :(
04:01 PM unterhaus: :)
04:02 PM travis_farmer[m]: didn't Red-Hat sell out to someone?
04:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: IBM
04:03 PM Tom_L: capn, the eternal optimist
04:03 PM travis_farmer[m]: was it? i was thinking AOL or something
04:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-closes-landmark-acquisition-red-hat-34-billion-defines-open-hybrid-cloud-future
04:03 PM travis_farmer[m]: ok, your right :-)
04:04 PM travis_farmer[m]: always liked Red-Hat before the sale
04:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Tom_L: my message was missing the sarcasm flag
04:04 PM unterhaus: I can never figure out what IBM does
04:04 PM Tom_L: as usual
04:04 PM XXCoder: mostly server stuff
04:05 PM travis_farmer[m]: that's what my servers used to run, Red-Hat, then CentOS, now Debian
04:05 PM unterhaus: I installed Centos once, because national instruments ran on it
04:06 PM rmu: IBM sells you "nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM"
04:06 PM unterhaus: that used to work, but I doubt it works any more does it?
04:07 PM unterhaus: everyone is running generic servers
04:07 PM rmu: no idea. insurance and banking and other legacy stuff still depends on mainframes
04:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: "nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM" .... that still works here
04:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's like a school with zero drop outs
04:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: you just rewrite the histroy
04:09 PM Tom_L: keeps the educators busy rewriting instead of teaching
04:10 PM rmu: i got to witness IBM service 20 years ago at christmas eve, they replaced a bunch of failed drives in a SAN in the middle of the night. was impressed.
04:10 PM rmu: problem was mainly getting the service technician into the building.
04:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: rmu: under warranty?
04:11 PM rmu: some sort of service contract. air conditioning in the server room failed and those drives couldn't take >45°C ambient
04:12 PM rmu: because of christmas nobody noticed failed cooling. crappy co-lo
04:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: would be too cold usually around here on xmas
04:12 PM rmu: but i'm not sure you can still buy IBM hardware...
04:13 PM rmu: it was freezing outside, but inside it was very hot
04:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ebay has plenty :)
04:13 PM rmu: new hardware
04:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: oh you mean new hardware?
04:14 PM c101horse8332[m]: OOOOH YEAH
04:14 PM c101horse8332[m]: IT FINISHED BUILDING
04:14 PM rmu: we have a winner?
04:14 PM c101horse8332[m]: now where do i find this deb
04:15 PM rmu: hint: next time you build, remove isolcpus=1,2,3 from cmdline, reboot, then build, then it use all 4 cores instead of one
04:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ibm.com/products?types[0]=hardware
04:15 PM rmu: deb should be in dir above linuxcnc source dir
04:15 PM unterhaus: rmu now you tell me
04:15 PM unterhaus: the debs are up a level
04:15 PM unterhaus: cd .. and you'll find them
04:16 PM rmu: didn't think on it, was just wondering why it takes that long
04:16 PM unterhaus: I was wondering if it really takes 3 isolated cpus
04:16 PM rmu: not sure debuild sets concurrency level
04:16 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i think default is one
04:16 PM rmu: probably won't make much difference, i use isolcpus=3
04:16 PM unterhaus: after I build the deb, do I have to uninstall the old one?
04:17 PM * c101horse8332[m] uploaded an image: (1200KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/OPOYLkmuBZjzmzMtkOWFPtqP/IMG_20230205_231622.jpg >
04:17 PM c101horse8332[m]: Sigh
04:17 PM Tom_L: unterhaus, what are you building?
04:17 PM rmu: don't think you have, but it shouldn't hurt either. it will complain
04:17 PM unterhaus: same thing as c horse
04:17 PM Tom_L: oh
04:18 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: dpkg -r linuxcnc-uspace-dev
04:18 PM unterhaus: linux cnc on a pi
04:18 PM c101horse8332[m]: do i do that in a new terminal or can i keep going in the one i was building the deb in?
04:19 PM Tom_L: where you're at should be fine
04:19 PM rmu: sudo dpkg....
04:19 PM rmu: sorry.
04:19 PM rmu: no new terminal needed
04:19 PM * c101horse8332[m] uploaded an image: (70KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/utlvOqhgrDCfPMAQpzDDuLAR/image.png >
04:19 PM c101horse8332[m]: can i do that there?
04:20 PM Tom_L: try it ... yes
04:20 PM rmu: yes. doesn't matter.
04:20 PM Tom_L: oh god no!!!!
04:20 PM Tom_L: :)
04:20 PM travis_farmer[m]: is the deb in that folder? it was in the folder just up from the build folder when i did it on PC
04:21 PM * c101horse8332[m] uploaded an image: (67KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/OlSckkmoYuTLDPoYdfOBvFXb/image.png >
04:21 PM rmu: so now install your new linuxcnc-uspace deb again
04:21 PM Tom_L: why's he running the -dev version?
04:21 PM rmu: it shouldn't have conflict with previous linuxcnc-uspace-dev deb package as you have removed it
04:22 PM rmu: -dev packages on debian contain development files, stuff like .h header files and so on
04:24 PM unterhaus: he's following JT's instructions, which install the dev package
04:27 PM travis_farmer[m]: the suspense is killing me...
04:27 PM Tom_L: go sit on your spindle
04:27 PM Tom_L: warm it up...
04:27 PM rmu: lol
04:27 PM travis_farmer[m]: how rude!
04:28 PM unterhaus: the annoyance is palpable around here
04:30 PM travis_farmer[m]: i'm the annoyance, aren't i?
04:31 PM Lcvette[m]: o/
04:31 PM unterhaus: where does pyqt5 come from?
04:31 PM Lcvette[m]: hey all
04:31 PM Lcvette[m]: im setting up a debian 11 system on my big machine and completely forgot how to setup the static ip for the mesa card
04:31 PM rmu: unterhaus: what do you mean? sudo apt install python3-pyqt5?
04:32 PM unterhaus: i didn't know the package name
04:32 PM rmu: unterhaus: for qtdragon you will need a bunch more, see history of chat
04:33 PM unterhaus: huh, shouldnt all that be in the deps?
04:33 PM Lcvette[m]: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/35592-mesa-ethernet-setup-for-7i92-7i96-7i76e-and-other-ethernet-mesa-boards#258119
04:33 PM rmu: that depends. ;)
04:33 PM Lcvette[m]: is this still good for debian 11?
04:33 PM c101horse8332[m]: guys guys guys
04:33 PM c101horse8332[m]: guess what
04:33 PM rmu: qtdragon should be separate package
04:33 PM unterhaus: so I d/l the log and grep for rmu
04:33 PM * c101horse8332[m] posted a file: (6KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/iyperpSyNGJCOLpMHjnNQzpR/message.txt >
04:33 PM c101horse8332[m]: sigh
04:34 PM rmu: hmm. no idea. any other errors?
04:34 PM c101horse8332[m]: nope, thats it
04:35 PM Tom_L: Lcvette[m], petty sure it's in the interfaces file
04:35 PM Tom_L: pretty
04:35 PM rmu: start it from terminal
04:35 PM XXCoder: few missing stuff from logs. no org.,freedesktop.Notifications, couple "is <package> missing?"
04:35 PM c101horse8332[m]: and im off to bed, shut down the pi already, ill see again tomorrow evening
04:37 PM rmu: unterhaus: qtdragon will complain and suggest what you have to install if it is missing something
04:38 PM c101horse8332[m]: Some of the just wont install, ive tried
04:38 PM * JT-Shop had a wonderful afternoon at Durso Hills Winery
04:38 PM unterhaus: it has a very tiny error box
04:40 PM c101horse8332[m]: Gst and gstreamer dont want to install, tried multiple times multiple ways
04:40 PM JT-Shop: fucking paul corner never gives up being an a$$ hole
04:40 PM Tom_L: Lcvette[m], the card or the static ip?
04:40 PM unterhaus: what did he do now?
04:41 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
04:41 PM unterhaus: I see it, I guess he's going to make the debian people mad now
04:41 PM JT-Shop: dev email list
04:42 PM unterhaus: I think possibly the most annoying thing is he won't admit that it's him
04:44 PM JT-Shop: yup, he is a coward
04:44 PM rmu: c101horse8332[m]: i doubt gstreamer is the cause, it works without here
04:44 PM c101horse8332[m]: It whines about it
04:45 PM unterhaus: I'm sure adam ant has enough problems
04:45 PM unterhaus: since he couldn't trademark his face
04:46 PM c101horse8332[m]: Anyway, im going to lay on one ear for a while, have a good night yall, and thank for kicking me in the right direction every time i come in here
04:49 PM unterhaus: I don't think it matters what Paul thinks at this point since debian said it was okay
04:50 PM c101horse8332[m]: Wait i just had a thought, could it be that lcnc created a directory when i tried the qtdragon sim on the pre0 and that its still trying to use the files in than now that its pre1? Could that be why its throwing a fit?
04:50 PM unterhaus: no
04:51 PM c101horse8332[m]: Oh
04:55 PM rmu: no
04:55 PM rmu: tomorrow start it from a terminal and post what it says there, maybe there is more info. it should not segfault.
05:00 PM unterhaus: did he have the problem with not being able to find qtsvg?
05:03 PM unterhaus: is there a package for ever python call to qt or what?
05:12 PM unterhaus: qtdragon sort of worked
05:17 PM unterhaus: I would need to find a example ngc that doesn't exceed the bounds of the sim though
05:22 PM rmu: share/axis/images/axis.ngc
05:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: how about a simple X and Y move back and forth?
05:27 PM unterhaus: I can do that, I just wanted to see if I could run a file without making one
05:28 PM unterhaus: every time I open a file I get an error message about nonetype not having an attribute sethtml
05:28 PM unterhaus: if I hit retry, the error message disappears
05:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: if at first you fail.... :)
05:29 PM unterhaus: why not just hit retry when you are driving a dangerous machine
05:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: probably not what they had in mind
05:29 PM unterhaus: if the error message doesn't matter, I think they could just make it a warning
05:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: eventually the tool will fit past the obstruction
05:30 PM unterhaus: I think that's how the machinist at work got a piece of an endmill to his forehead
05:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: CAN DO attitude
05:31 PM unterhaus: he always accused me of being dangerous, but he was always the one that got hurt
05:31 PM unterhaus: and they sold off all the machines so I can't get hurt there and he already did
05:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: all fun and games until a piece of the endmill gets lodged into your forehead
05:32 PM unterhaus: foreheads can bleed really bad too, from the smallest of endmill bites
05:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: well at least we aren't compiling on a Raspberry Pie XXX
05:32 PM unterhaus: nature foresaw how expensive a good plastic surgeon was going to be
05:33 PM unterhaus: I am not sure I believe we are in rpi problems right now
05:33 PM unterhaus: I can't run both pc and rpi at the same time
05:35 PM unterhaus: i got it to do the axis.ngc and that's probably the last time I'm going to open qtdragon
05:35 PM unterhaus: looks just like mach3
05:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://imgur.com/oCiFCe7
05:39 PM unterhaus: Cap'n, there is something disturbing about that thing on the right
05:40 PM XXCoder: reminds me or pronterface of old printer controller thing
05:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Axisface
05:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder: oh, have they moved on to more modern GUI's now?
05:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder: what do they use now?
05:42 PM XXCoder: i dont think pronterface have been updated for years now
05:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://octoprint.org/assets/img/features/system-menu.png this?
05:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://cdn-learn.adafruit.com/assets/assets/000/020/590/medium800/raspberry_pi_OctoPrint.jpg this looks almost real
05:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: that thing on the right is an intuitive interactive control for a radar based extrusion process
05:48 PM unterhaus: or IIC4RBEP for short
05:49 PM unterhaus: which is "debian" if you read it upside down and backwards
05:51 PM XXCoder: octoprint is entirely different controller
05:52 PM XXCoder: https://i.all3dp.com/workers/images/fit=cover,w=1284,h=722,gravity=0.5x0.5,format=auto/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/22121221/pronterface-is-a-flexible-tool-to-send-g-code-and-ken-douglas-via-all3dp-211222.jpg
05:52 PM XXCoder: this is pronterface
05:56 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: then i must be mistaken since that looks like a unique acronym vs something that has been used several times before
05:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Unused Special Acronym (USA)
05:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: is it possible to look in a mirror backwards?
06:00 PM CaptHindsight[m]: vs backwards into a mirror
06:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: rmu: does the wiki and forums need an update to warn users that the latest Rpi4's no longer work with the posted ISO?
06:08 PM XXCoder: I wonder what changed on rpi4
06:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: even Andy had issues with the 8 GB version
06:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: some change in peripherals
06:15 PM XXCoder: odd
06:15 PM XXCoder: rpi should be super standardized
06:15 PM XXCoder: thats why it sells well
06:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: not always so standard, but this during the early days of the chip shortage
06:22 PM XXCoder: hm ok
06:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/9-installing-linuxcnc/40466-linuxcnc-2-8-0-pi4-img-no-usb-on-raspberry-pi-8gb
06:25 PM XXCoder: so its broken only on lcnc images
06:25 PM XXCoder: while stock rpi os work?
06:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: USB doesn't work up to kernel 5.7 for the hardware variant of PI4 with 8GB RAM
06:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: - This issue has a fix in kernel 5.8 (currently in experimental): lkml.org/lkml/2020/5/5/998
06:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/issues/3713
06:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the story gets longer the more you read
06:39 PM skunkworks[m]: I put bookworm on my pi and installed rt kernel and linuxcnc. xfce.. it isn't 100% but it was suprisingly painles. there is 'noise' on the screen when you move the mouse around in certain locations
06:41 PM XXCoder: i ran into bus banging issue when I used rpi4 as main pc for over a month
06:41 PM XXCoder: lowering screen resolution basically solved it
06:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 2-3 years ago everything just worked https://github.com/sakaki-/gentoo-on-rpi-64bit
06:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: no screen noise, no USB issues, etc etc
06:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: so if you build it properly it works
06:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: why can't the Debians do it?
06:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or the Armbians?
06:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: was smooth on a 4k monitor
06:47 PM XXCoder: weird
06:48 PM skunkworks[m]: you are just a gentoo snob...
06:48 PM skunkworks[m]: 😉
06:48 PM XXCoder: I was using sdcard though might be an issue also. was planning to get usb drive when i finally upgraded pc
06:50 PM unterhaus: Cap'n does lcnc run on gentoo?
06:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sure do
06:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: if you already have Gentoo working then there is a LCNC package https://forum.linuxcnc.org/18-computer/47699-gentoo#259923
06:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: we are still testing his new from scratch installer
06:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ~1500 lines of bash
07:09 PM unterhaus: I don't know if I want to put that much effort into making a pi run better
07:09 PM unterhaus: this debian image with xfce really is annoying
07:10 PM unterhaus: starting with it looking like crap
07:19 PM unterhaus: I tried changing the isolcpus on the pi to 2,3 and it's still stuck on 1,2,3
07:25 PM Tom_L: been quite the pi in the face today
07:29 PM unterhaus: I always disliked the magic bootloaders on arm
07:30 PM unterhaus: I forget how the beaglebones boot loader worked, I used to be pretty good with that
07:42 PM hightower3: Hey a somewhat offtopic question, but I guess this is the closest match I found in the list of channels to ask:
07:42 PM hightower3: Hey let's say I want to have a flat, 1mm thick steel plate, sized 2m x 1m. And there would be a 90 degree bend (or weld, doesn't matter) 2cm high all around the edge to improve resistance to bending. The surface would carry say, 100 kg. Which type of steel would be suitable for this and have minimal possible bending of the surface under load?
07:47 PM Tom_L: 4130
07:55 PM hightower3: thanks, reading up on it. Is the type of strength/resistance I am asking about actually called 'yield strength', or it's a combination of different factors?
07:59 PM CloudEvil: The resistance to bending of all types of steel before tehy bend permenantly is basically identical. (they bend permenantly or fracture at different amounts)
08:00 PM CloudEvil: If you want something to be more rigid, you need to redesign it, with more thickness or closer bracing.
08:01 PM hightower3: Yeah no I think the current off-the-shelf materials will do fine. I'm just wondering which of those available is best suited for the purpose
08:03 PM _unreal_: so milling an other part for the micro desktop tower for the OPI5
08:04 PM CloudEvil: hightower3: basically the cheapest you can get, unless you're loading it enough to permenantly bend it. https://scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1582&context=isccss is neat - but basically confirms that it varies little (10%) in elasticity.
08:06 PM Tom_L: next best thing would be Ti sheet but $$$
08:07 PM Tom_L: and i'd even have my doubts you could purchase it
08:08 PM CloudEvil: Your only choice of metals that are much better than mild steel are berylium and osmium.
08:08 PM CloudEvil: And, well, ...
08:09 PM CloudEvil: Oops, fortgot tungsten.
08:09 PM Tom_L: very brittle
08:09 PM CloudEvil: yeah
08:09 PM Tom_L: don't drop it
08:09 PM CloudEvil: the metal, not the carbide
08:09 PM roycroft: well i'm not sure my first vinyl stencil worked out well
08:09 PM Tom_L: i know, we machined it for balast on planes
08:10 PM CloudEvil: fun.
08:10 PM Tom_L: not
08:10 PM CloudEvil: Probably better than depleted uranium?
08:10 PM roycroft: i am stencling on uncoated framing mat material
08:10 PM Tom_L: usually lead was used unless the space was very tight
08:10 PM roycroft: the paint seemed to bead up a bit
08:11 PM roycroft: my hypothesis is that some of the adhesive from the transfer film got on the stock
08:11 PM roycroft: so i might have to do a quick acetone wipe in future
08:11 PM roycroft: i'll find out tomorrow, when the paint is dry
08:11 PM roycroft: the rest of the process went great, though
08:12 PM XXCoder: nice
08:13 PM roycroft: yeah, i think this vinyl cutter is going to work out ok
08:14 PM roycroft: i'm actually rather shocked, because i had horrible results with the first few attempts, using the vinyl supplied with the machine
08:14 PM roycroft: i just got some high quality vinyl, and the first go cut perfectly
08:14 PM roycroft: without any tweaking at all
08:15 PM roycroft: it will be interesting to see if the vinyl releases from the cardboard ok and if the paint sticks
08:16 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, I just ordered a new 3d printer
08:16 PM _unreal_: Creality Ender 3 Neo
08:16 PM roycroft: i don't plan on using cardboard as my sign stock, but it was cheap for this experiment
08:18 PM XXCoder: you could do cool cardboard stacks structures
08:18 PM XXCoder: that was what i was planning to play with, using scrap boards
08:19 PM roycroft: what i'd like to do is make stenciled signs on thin plywood
08:20 PM roycroft: the problem is that with the thin plywood, the surface ply is so thin that it sands through almost instantly
08:20 PM roycroft: and i'd need to sand it really smooth to keep the paint from bleeding in
08:20 PM CloudEvil: sanding sealer helps.
08:20 PM roycroft: yeah, i could shoot a thin coat of shellac on it
08:21 PM roycroft: or i could make my own plywood, with a thicker surface ply
08:33 PM _unreal_: running a finish pass on this part I'm cutting right now
08:33 PM _unreal_: got like 6min left
08:33 PM _unreal_: acrylic is always fun to mill :P
11:03 PM solarwind: One of my hobbies involves taking two electronic torque screwdrivers, connecting them with a single 1/4" hex bit and twisting them to see if their readings match up
11:03 PM solarwind: They do. It's very satisfying