#linuxcnc Logs
Feb 02 2023
#linuxcnc Calendar
01:05 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
01:35 AM CaptHindsight[m]: solarwind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuv4f-AmKE4
01:40 AM CaptHindsight[m]: solarwind: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/intel-just-had-its-worst-year-since-the-dot-com-bust-and-it-wont-get-better-anytime-soon-11674784330 the chickens have come home to roost
02:00 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
02:12 AM randy: morning
04:14 AM travis_farmer[m]: G'Morning, -1F another cold one
04:28 AM Deejay: moin
04:28 AM Tom_L: morning
05:32 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:32 AM JT-Cave: find out today if I can order the C8 or not
05:40 AM travis_farmer[m]: oh go ahead, get two ;-)
05:40 AM JT-Cave: no room, gotta let one go
05:44 AM JT-Cave: https://spiracraft.com/product/carter-and-son-toolworks-double-ended-thread-chaser/
05:44 AM JT-Cave: what in the world is that for
05:47 AM travis_farmer[m]: scrapes threads to clean them up?
05:47 AM JT-Cave: https://vimeo.com/788457481
05:51 AM travis_farmer[m]: dang, -40F to -60F wind-chill predicted tomorrow!!! i may not be out in the shop then,,,
05:52 AM jpa-: JT-Cave: i think it is for making threads to wood on a wood lathe
05:52 AM JT-Cave: yup just watched the video
05:58 AM JT-Cave: https://youtu.be/6WsyU_mJCVE
06:27 AM rmu: does wind chill affect you indoors?
06:28 AM travis_farmer[m]: no, but the shop has 1.5 inch thick walls, so it makes it harder to heat
06:31 AM unterhaus_: red cross has tracking cookies on their site and it doesn't work if you have a blocker
06:31 AM unterhaus_: seems like they are up to no good
06:59 AM JT-Cave: rooster crowed time to let the hens out
07:03 AM * travis_farmer[m] wonders who is really in charge? the rooster, or JT? ;-)
07:06 AM JT-Cave: the rooster is a python program...
07:07 AM travis_farmer[m]: you let snakes in the hen house? ;-)
07:08 AM JT-Cave: the rooster crows 5:30 before sunrise each day, their doors open at sunrise
07:30 AM travis_farmer[m]: so it is automated then. how does it detect sunrise? Cadmium-Sulfide cell?
07:33 AM JT-Cave: every morning 1 minute past midnight it gets the astral tables for the day then updates the astral events for the day
07:34 AM travis_farmer[m]: sounds overly complicated... ;-) seems like just a light sensor (Cadmium-Sulfide cell) would be easier. though they don't work as well when covered in snow...
07:35 AM JT-Cave: or it's raining or cloudy or overcast or foggy... been there done that
07:35 AM travis_farmer[m]: yeah, i can see the need for the complication, not that i think about it
07:35 AM JT-Cave: the program is accurate and reliable
07:36 AM travis_farmer[m]: s/not/now/
07:39 AM JT-Cave: I use the same algorithm to open and close the doors on the coops as well as turn on the lights in the morning and turn them back off after an hour
08:15 AM * travis_farmer[m] is bored out of his skull, with projects at a temporary stand-still...
08:24 AM bjorkintosh: travis_farmer[m], talk to chatgpt in the meantime. see how much BS it will generate in a minute :-)
08:25 AM travis_farmer[m]: lol
08:29 AM rmu: this is probably overkill for sunrise / sunset, but it is accurate https://midcdmz.nrel.gov/spa/
08:30 AM rmu: spa.h / spa.c
08:48 AM JT-Cave: interesting you can get spa.h and spa_tester.c but not spa.c unless you register
09:12 AM rmu: strange.
09:13 AM rmu: but it seems you can fake it, no email required
09:13 AM rmu: probably some requirement because funding of this software was DOE contract
09:15 AM JT-Woodshop: yep
09:35 AM roguish[m]: JT-Woodshop: I'm thinking about putting up a tracking solar power panel....... got a spot on top of my shed that's not too shaded.
09:36 AM JT-Woodshop: cool
09:37 AM roguish[m]: and. the other day I took a box of alum scrap the a metals recycler. paid me .78 / pound. then bought some 1/2" plates stock for 1.75 / pound.... last time I bought there they charged me 3.00 /#
09:39 AM roguish[m]: so now i'm working on adding 3:1 reduction to y and z on the PM mill.. already ordered the belts and pulleys from Breco.
09:57 AM skunkworks[m]: one of these days I am going to finish this.. maybe when I am rich and famous..
09:57 AM skunkworks[m]: https://electronicsam.com/images/solar.jpg
10:00 AM JT-Woodshop: mirrors?
10:00 AM skunkworks[m]: yes
10:05 AM rmu: skunkworks[m]: what are you going to do with it? thats 4m² max, i.e. ~4kW
10:09 AM skunkworks[m]: it is around 11kw if all the mirrors were installed.
10:09 AM skunkworks[m]: iirc
10:13 AM skunkworks[m]: so - if we say 10kw - that would be around 34kbtu which would suppliment the wood burning furnace.
10:14 AM rmu: so this has more than 3m × 3m? for heating purposes i would go for vacuum insulated thermal solar system
10:14 AM rmu: and/or big windows ;)
10:15 AM rmu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_thermal_collector#Evacuated_tube_collectors
10:19 AM skunkworks[m]: The initial plan was to run a steam engine or stirling engine.. but that was a long time ago 😉
10:20 AM skunkworks[m]: it is around 10sqm
10:23 AM rmu: that can get you around 10kW in ideal conditions. i'm at 48°N in central europe, and solar irradiation this winter is not that great so far...
10:25 AM skunkworks[m]: sure - I am around 44
10:25 AM skunkworks[m]: (I made it when I was in highschool)
10:27 AM rmu: oh, nice.
10:34 AM * roycroft is a bit north of 44 degrees
10:46 AM roycroft: it's -4 this morning - it was not suppsed to get below freezing last night
10:46 AM * roycroft wants it to be march now
10:48 AM travis_farmer[m]: just got shipping notice, JT. Thank You! :-)
10:56 AM JT-Cave: you're welcome
12:59 PM pere: hi
01:25 PM c101horse8332[m]: Okay, i have time to try this now, what do i do exactly?
01:31 PM travis_farmer[m]: c101horse🇳🇱#8332: if i recall, somebody said they were going to load up a Rpi and see if Probe Basic even can be run on a Rpi. also i remember someone said to check with TurBoss to see if it has been tested to work on a Rpi.
01:31 PM c101horse8332[m]: Never mind, found out, sim doesnt work either
01:32 PM c101horse8332[m]: the 'hack' unterhaus threw at me made it work briefly before it fucked off again
01:37 PM * c101horse8332[m] posted a file: (62KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/jauriarts.org/RtykKGdZaDvnBmKAwRYvhGBs/message.txt >
01:37 PM c101horse8332[m]: anyway there's the error the sim throws
01:37 PM travis_farmer[m]: i got LinuxCNC to work on a Intel I3 motherboard, with crap numbers, and that is what i am running now. seems as though there should be something in your computer collection that may not have good numbers, but may actually run with a little tuning. on mine, i did have to make use of the intel NIC hack and isolcpus. but it seems to work smoothly. (running debian 11 from JT's setup guide)
01:39 PM XXCoder: "task: 2027 cycles, min=0.000021, max=0.020276, avg=0.010038, 0 latency excursions (> 10x expected cycle time of 0.010000s)"
01:39 PM XXCoder: sounds like it noticed that start time was too long or something
01:40 PM skunkworks[m]: that is a pretty normal output from linuxcnc
01:42 PM travis_farmer[m]: 2023-02-01 22:13:25.856 ( 12.799s) [ B6F1A980] vtkShaderProgram.cxx:438 ERR| vtkShaderProgram (0x3d02130): 0:1(10): error: GLSL 1.50 is not supported. Supported versions are: 1.10, 1.20, 1.00 ES, and 3.00 ES
01:42 PM travis_farmer[m]: /usr/bin/linuxcnc: line 963: 1455 Segmentation fault $EMCDISPLAY -ini "$INIFILE" $EMCDISPLAYARGS $EXTRA_ARGS
01:48 PM c101horse8332[m]: the problem im having with every other computer is that it runs absolutely fine for a while, then all of a sudden, without doing any modifications to whatever its fucks up and does not want to run lcnc for longer than sometimes 30 minutes, sometimes 2, like totally unreliable, only way to fix it seemed to be a fresh install every time and even then it would sometimes be just as bad as before
01:48 PM c101horse8332[m]: completely random and fucky
01:48 PM c101horse8332[m]: and really fucking annoying
01:53 PM travis_farmer[m]: only thing i found on that error i posted from your message.txt, is a simple response in a forum somewhere, "Your HARDWARE doesn't support GLSL 1.50."
01:57 PM travis_farmer[m]: but also this: How to enable OpenGL in RPi4?
01:57 PM travis_farmer[m]: This is the simplest of the three. Tools > Preferences. Click on Video. Under Video Settings > Output, select OpenGL video output.
02:04 PM skunkworks[m]: c101horse🇳🇱 (@_discord_181695718124290048:jauriarts.org) that seems odd. I have machines running for weeks at a time - no issues. Could you maybe be having hardware issues? Like a hard drive going bad?
02:04 PM travis_farmer[m]: good point
02:05 PM c101horse8332[m]: Would be weird, ssd in all of them
02:05 PM skunkworks[m]: Agreed.. But I have many machines running linux and a percentage of them running linuxcnc.. All are stable
02:06 PM c101horse8332[m]: Theyre stable for a couple weeks, maybe months then, unstable
02:06 PM skunkworks[m]: yeck
02:08 PM skunkworks[m]: c101horse🇳🇱 (@_discord_181695718124290048:jauriarts.org) what user interface?
02:08 PM c101horse8332[m]: I cant find that video settings part
02:08 PM skunkworks[m]: what kind of unstable do you get?
02:09 PM c101horse8332[m]: either latency or following errors
02:09 PM c101horse8332[m]: and once it starts happening it happens a lot all of a sudden
02:09 PM c101horse8332[m]: without having made changes to anything
02:10 PM skunkworks[m]: c101horse🇳🇱 (@_discord_181695718124290048:jauriarts.org) do you have crappy internet?
02:10 PM travis_farmer[m]: i have had a SSD go bad, and it does cause bad performance issues
02:10 PM c101horse8332[m]: no internet connection on the cnc machine
02:10 PM c101horse8332[m]: well, the pi does now have wifi ofcourse
02:12 PM skunkworks[m]: c101horse🇳🇱 (@_discord_181695718124290048:jauriarts.org) maybe watch this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDKaFJmB254
02:12 PM skunkworks[m]: I had some wierd following error issues and it seemed to be caused by timesyncd
02:12 PM skunkworks[m]: switching to NTP seemed to fix it.
02:13 PM skunkworks[m]: (this was on the rpi
02:13 PM c101horse8332[m]: but the latency spikes, where do those come from
02:13 PM c101horse8332[m]: this is the first rpi im trying
02:15 PM skunkworks[m]: c101horse🇳🇱 (@_discord_181695718124290048:jauriarts.org) what are you using the pi with? mesa? gpio?
02:15 PM c101horse8332[m]: mesa 7i96e
02:15 PM skunkworks[m]: nice
02:16 PM c101horse8332[m]: well im currently not using it with anything since it dont work:kekVW:
02:18 PM skunkworks[m]: on the rpi - I have isolcpus 1,2,3 idle=poll in the kernel line
02:18 PM JT-Woodshop: a new mesa card?
02:18 PM skunkworks[m]: in the config.txt I have force_turbo=1
02:19 PM skunkworks[m]: I also overclock it..
02:19 PM skunkworks[m]: [pi4]... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/a7c1684b30045b95dfaf4b7524611171dcf4ccd1>)
02:19 PM c101horse8332[m]: same one ive been using since i started
03:05 PM * travis_farmer[m] has burning eyes, from too much screen time... time for a nap...
04:02 PM XXCoder: yay new primitive tech
04:06 PM * JT[m]1 uploaded an image: (233KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/EJdjbgXOPFBsWmJpgjYBDeRk/20230202_160448.jpg >
04:06 PM JT-Woodshop: the octopus is alive finally
04:06 PM XXCoder: omg
04:14 PM Tom_L: mix of 20 & 30A receptacles
04:14 PM JT-Woodshop: no 30a
04:15 PM JT-Woodshop: mix of 120 and 240
04:15 PM JT-Woodshop: 30a is much bigger
04:15 PM Tom_L: i was thinkin the -| made it 30
04:18 PM JT-Woodshop: -| - is 15/20a 240
04:23 PM roycroft: i took a different approach
04:23 PM * JT[m]1 uploaded an image: (335KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/VBVQNrAVFtKomqDmPdsFWTvE/20230202_162236.jpg >
04:23 PM JT-Woodshop: that's what I replaced
04:23 PM Tom_L: bit handier
04:24 PM XXCoder: new one is much nicer
04:24 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/Receptacles/Receptacles1.jpeg
04:24 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/Receptacles/Receptacles2.jpeg
04:24 PM roycroft: you can tell who was an electrician in an earlier life and who was a woodworker in an earlier life
04:24 PM roycroft: mine are all 240vac/20a
04:25 PM Tom_L: twi$tlock
04:26 PM roycroft: yes
04:26 PM roycroft: and they're not that expensive
04:27 PM roycroft: cheaper than tripping over a cord and pulling it out
04:28 PM roycroft: you can also tell who keeps a neat shop and who keeps a messy shop
04:28 PM roycroft: my shop is actually not that messy overall, but where the power boxes are is hard to get to
04:29 PM roycroft: and i don't tidy those areas as well as i should
04:29 PM JT-Woodshop: I made some drawers to go under an old machine table and my buddy the woodworker said "I would not have made them that way" I said if you're a machinist you would
04:32 PM Tom_L: overnite is 17F then it starts to slowly warm up a bit
04:33 PM Tom_L: 57 on Sat
04:47 PM JT-Woodshop: we are a day behind you on temps
04:51 PM * JT-Woodshop had a good chuckle when he opened the motor cover on the saw stop they used tape over the wire nuts... not seen that since working on nail machines a long long long time ago
04:58 PM * JT-Woodshop loves his epson printer
05:14 PM JT-Woodshop: all right now the sawstop is 240v now
05:29 PM jdh: anyone have a manual for circa 1996 WinRT Toolkit for NT by BlueWater systems?
06:48 PM skunkworks[m]: jdh: lol.. pretty specific..
06:49 PM XXCoder: try web archive?
06:52 PM XXCoder: you got link to orginal site to download? if so, try web archive till it has a copy of it to download
06:52 PM XXCoder: *moving years
07:03 PM unterhausen: will linuxcnc tell you what version it is without running it?
07:03 PM unterhausen: nvm, just ran it
07:04 PM XXCoder: not sure but maybe in term, linuxcnc --version
07:05 PM unterhausen: none of the following work --ver -ver --version
07:05 PM unterhausen: nbd to run it though, tells you right off
07:06 PM XXCoder: hmm oh well lol
07:06 PM unterhausen: keep thinking I'll update it but I don't have the network hooked up
07:08 PM roycroft: linuxcnc -v works
07:09 PM roycroft: oh, it starts up the gui as well though
07:09 PM XXCoder: hm need to have no gui start version display
07:09 PM XXCoder: in case linuxcnc cant run
07:09 PM XXCoder: well can always look in synaptic or something though
07:11 PM skunkworks[m]: https://web.archive.org/web/19970411010504/http://bluewatersystems.com/
07:11 PM XXCoder: very 90s site
07:13 PM roycroft: so i can ssh to a linuxcnc machine, and not set a DISPLAY environment variable:
07:13 PM roycroft: ~$ linuxcnc -v 2>/dev/null | tail -1
07:13 PM roycroft: LINUXCNC - 2.7.14
07:13 PM roycroft: it spews out a bunch of garbage because DISPLAY is not set, hence the 2>/dev/null bit
07:14 PM roycroft: but that's a way to get the version without fully starting up linuxcnc
07:14 PM roycroft: it starts to load and then exits almost immediately
07:14 PM unterhausen: -v is verbose
07:14 PM roycroft: yes
07:14 PM roycroft: oh, it works without that as well
07:14 PM unterhausen: just starting it is the most economical method
07:14 PM unterhausen: like I previously said
07:15 PM unterhausen: but you had to one-up me
07:15 PM roycroft: well if you're trying to determine what version and you are not at the console, that works
07:15 PM unterhausen: is buster old?
07:15 PM roycroft: yes, buster is ancient
07:15 PM unterhausen: so I should update?
07:16 PM roycroft: 1) does the machine work for you now?
07:16 PM roycroft: 2) is the machine isolated from the interent?
07:16 PM XXCoder: skunkworks[m]: 2005 is interesting. it just turns into definitions site lol
07:16 PM unterhausen: I swear I didn't install it that long ago, but no I have never used it
07:16 PM roycroft: if you answer both questions "yes", then upgrading is optional
07:16 PM XXCoder: 2012, some blog site
07:16 PM skunkworks[m]: yah - it is wierd
07:17 PM XXCoder: 2017 have some forced frame breakout code
07:17 PM XXCoder: so archive constantly refreshes
07:17 PM roycroft: buster is debian 10
07:17 PM roycroft: debian is on version 11 now, well on its way to 12
07:17 PM XXCoder: 2019 domain on sale
07:18 PM roycroft: some folks here run linuxcnc on debian 9 still
07:18 PM roycroft: but if my machine were connected to the internet i'd be running debian 11 for sure
07:18 PM XXCoder: it dont really matter for disconnected systems, besides stability and stuff
07:19 PM roycroft: it only matters for isolated systems when one wants to install a newer version of linuxcnc that does not run on the old operating system
07:19 PM roycroft: this is assuming that one's reason for running linuxcnc is to control machines and make parts
07:19 PM roycroft: if one is running it to play with the software, then go for the nightly builds of everything
07:19 PM roycroft: and have a great life
07:25 PM XXCoder: jdh: https://web.archive.org/web/19990422003608/http://www.bluewatersystems.com/products.html
07:25 PM XXCoder: it has manual download
07:26 PM XXCoder: doh link not working
07:26 PM unterhausen: I don't remember when I set this up, but I'm confused at how old it is
07:26 PM unterhausen: since I never used it, probably best to reinstall everything
07:30 PM unterhausen: I see, the currently available iso on linuxcnc.org is buster
07:31 PM unterhausen: the instructions for updating linuxcnc don't even include buster, so that seems like a disconnect
07:32 PM unterhausen: I see why people think it's too hard to install lcnc
07:34 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I never understand that. Download ISO, install from ISO, config, done.
07:35 PM XXCoder: thats the case for most machines
07:38 PM XXCoder: jdh: https://web.archive.org/web/20001009115742/http://www.bluewatersystems.com:80/downloads/Manuals/WinRT-USBUsersManual.pdf
07:39 PM XXCoder: dunno if thats what you wanted
07:40 PM XXCoder: its usb but may have enough info to figure some stuff dunno lol
07:41 PM XXCoder: its only one I could find. looked very hard
07:42 PM XXCoder: far too new (2013) https://ftdichip.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/AN_271-D2xx-WinRT-Guide.pdf
07:42 PM unterhausen: I fell into the trap of wanting 2.9, which isn't release I guess
07:43 PM unterhausen: release
07:43 PM unterhausen: my 'd' key doesn't work, weird
07:50 PM unterhausen: the qtpyvcp website mentions python 2 support once, but everything just about assumes python3
07:53 PM jdh: XXCoder: a little older than that. got some ancient code that quit working. trying to get the machine back up
07:54 PM XXCoder: hmm too bad. those 2 pdfs is literally only 2 I could find, working
07:57 PM XXCoder: 1998 has a link but it wasnt archived unfortunately
07:59 PM Tom_L: jdh, most of the kids here weren't born yet
08:00 PM Tom_L: well a good few anyway
08:00 PM jdh: yeah, that's the one I need
08:00 PM jdh: I have the original install floppies!
08:02 PM Tom_L: the same year usb was introduced
08:03 PM Tom_L: before bloatware had reached it's full potential...
08:05 PM XXCoder: wonder if sample codes is enoygh lol https://web.archive.org/web/19990428071626/http://www.bluewatersystems.com/products_samples.html
08:05 PM XXCoder: thats for 2.6
08:15 PM jdh: the problematic code searches an ISA bus for two motion cards. Can't tell if it doesn't work due to card IO confilicts or wtf
08:16 PM Tom_L: were there hard jumpers then?
08:16 PM Tom_L: doubt it was done in firmware yet
08:17 PM jdh: heh, there are jumpers, but it is also software configurable. Not sure how, since I assumed it would need to know the base address before it could see the card. but, you can set the base address in software.
08:17 PM Tom_L: the jumpers must be an offset from that then?
08:18 PM jdh: no, they set normal looking irq/IO, but it is evidently also able to do it in software. It's running NT4.0
08:18 PM * Tom_L hugs his nt4 box
08:18 PM jdh: old computer died. installed NT and drivers on a 'new' box
08:18 PM jdh: could be bios/bus/wtf
08:19 PM Tom_L: what era pc?
08:20 PM jdh: I think the old one was a P2
08:21 PM Tom_L: would lspci show the card address?
08:22 PM Tom_L: and does knoppix have lspci on it?
08:23 PM Tom_L: no.. it doesn't scan isa
08:23 PM Tom_L: dmesg might
08:32 PM unterhausen: shouldn't you just be able to type dmesg? it's giving me errors
08:32 PM Tom_L: i would think so
08:33 PM unterhausen: works with sudo
08:34 PM Tom_L: but he's on NT.. i was thinking he could boot a knoppix etc disk and do that
08:34 PM unterhausen: I was solving my own problems, sorry it was the same thing
08:35 PM unterhausen: misspelled isolcpus but dmesg didn't tell me that
08:36 PM Tom_L: you need the spell checker version
08:36 PM unterhausen: i only wanted to isolate one, so I used isolcpu
08:41 PM unterhausen: I have 18 glxgears running with no latency problems so I'm going to try the real test
08:41 PM unterhausen: the real test is to type "wow, this computer seems to have really low latency" into irc
08:44 PM XXCoder: no, the true test is "hmm my linuxcnc seems to be perfect"
08:44 PM XXCoder: problems will come up soon if it isnt perfect lol
08:47 PM unterhausen: the numbers at the bottom of latency-histogram are the actual max and min, right?
08:53 PM unterhausen: it's nice that latency histogram will start glxgears
08:54 PM unterhausen: but you can't tell if you've had a rt fault
08:55 PM unterhausen: I guess 21 microseconds latency is good enough for mesa boards
08:55 PM XXCoder: isnt midpoint 25 microseconds?
08:56 PM XXCoder: with 100 as "you should consider some other computer" level
08:57 PM unterhausen: people have told me that 100 was okay for mesa
08:57 PM XXCoder: hmm think thats right, been a while
08:57 PM unterhausen: barely
08:59 PM unterhausen: but you would want a slower servo thread then
09:05 PM unterhausen: if you don't run the base thread, latency histogram shows the servo thread in the base thread window
09:07 PM unterhausen: latency is worse for the servo thread if the base thread isn't running, I wonder if I forgot idle polling
09:09 PM unterhausen: this is how people are radicalized. When the woodturning video I was watching ended, they went to a river table video
09:11 PM XXCoder: lol
09:11 PM XXCoder: probably
09:12 PM unterhausen: 40 glxgears and 2 youtube videos. what else?
09:13 PM XXCoder: dont need 2 youtube videos, just one 8k hd fireplace video
09:13 PM XXCoder: since its fire, most of screen area is constantly updating so its hitting stuff pretty hard
09:13 PM XXCoder: 4k i fine too
09:14 PM unterhausen: is that worse than a river table video?
09:14 PM XXCoder: thankfully no
09:14 PM XXCoder: your mind wont get blasted
09:14 PM unterhausen: I'm not watching them, the number of ads would blast my mind
09:15 PM XXCoder: i forgot that ads is a thing
09:15 PM unterhausen: it's the same one too, I'm not going to figure out what they are selling
09:15 PM unterhausen: somehow I pay for no ads, but I'm not logged in on the lcnc computer so I get the ads
09:35 PM unterhausen: it would be nice if this dell worked out, it cost $25
09:36 PM XXCoder: you may have to tinker with some bios settings for best perforance
09:37 PM unterhausen: since I'm using it for mesa, I'm going to be happy if it's good enough
09:37 PM XXCoder: if 100 is borderline and youre getting 25 it should be fine
09:37 PM unterhausen: I think people do software stepping with 25
09:38 PM unterhausen: not ideal
10:45 PM skunkworks[m]: 100 is ok for mesa card..