#linuxcnc Logs

Nov 28 2022

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:07 AM Deejay: moin
01:34 AM randy: morning
03:22 AM mrec: this chamfering worked smoothly, seems like this was something quite important
04:31 AM travis_farmer: G'Morning, 38F with a high of 44F. hope to get out to my shop to re-wire my machine, for the better (it has been needing it). none of the power taps are fused, and the wiring from the control cabinet to machine is a mess.
04:43 AM Tom_L: morning
05:04 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:35 AM travis-farmer is now known as travis_farmer
08:35 AM travis_farmer: Hmmm... just realized a flaw in my plans... the diesel heater in my CNC shed/shop is powered by the same 12Vdc source as my CNC control power bus... so right off the bat, i will have to isolate the heater so i can keep the CNC controls unpowered while i work on them. the flaw being that i should have foreseen this issue when i made the temporary connection.
08:35 AM travis_farmer: anyway, printed out the revised schematic, and now heading out to the shop to get the heat started...
08:49 AM solarwind: Question about how linuxCNC does position mode for circular motion: if it wants to cut a circle, how does it chop that up into position commands for a MESA card for example?
08:50 AM solarwind: Is it essentially cutting a high resolution polygon? Or is it actually doing a perfect circle with truly variable timing between steps?
08:51 AM jpa-: solarwind: for a stepper machine?
08:53 AM solarwind: sure, if the MESA card is to output step/dir signals
08:54 AM jpa-: AFAIK the path is chopped up at the trajectory thread frequency (usually same as servo thread, defaults to 1kHz)
08:54 AM solarwind: The context of this question is that I'm writing an ethercat HAL driver for torque/velocity control using drives that may support true circular motion
08:54 AM solarwind: jpa- ah ok so it is indeed sending linear trajectories
08:55 AM solarwind: Which is fine, but I can take advantage of true multi axis coordinated circular motion in certain servo drives
08:55 AM jpa-: or rather locations at servo thread frequency, though depending on how velocity command is connected, it could count as linear trajectories
08:55 AM mrec: pcw-home: can I connect 3 ttl encoder X/Y/Z to the 7i96s?
08:55 AM solarwind: You can give the drive parameters for the trajectory and the drive itself will plan the trajectory
08:56 AM mrec: my glass encoders should arrive at the end of this week
08:56 AM jpa-: solarwind: i think there are cubic splines at some level of the linuxcnc internals
08:57 AM solarwind: yeah, getting that to the HAL driver will take some work though
08:57 AM solarwind: because the HAL system is designed to take position commands as an input
09:00 AM jpa-: joints[t].cubic for each joint, so perhaps that could be taken out and sent somehow
09:05 AM pcw-home: mrec: Yes, with an encoder daughtercard (7I85, 7I85S, 7I89)
09:09 AM pcw-home: solarwind: unless you have a combination of high acceleration _and high precision, linear interpolation will _not_ be the source of significant errors
09:10 AM solarwind: pcw-home or high speed
09:11 AM solarwind: but yes I understand what you're saying
09:16 AM pcw-home: the chord error even at a 1 KHz servo thread rate is tiny compared to mechanical errors mo most machines
09:16 AM pcw-home: if you need 1u accuracy and 1G accel that's a different story
09:18 AM pcw-home: also the chord error is inversely proportional to the update rate squared
09:22 AM pcw-home: LinuxCNCs lack of jerk limiting is probably the main cause of errors with higher acceleration machines
09:23 AM bjorkintosh: pcw-home, is it fixable?
09:27 AM pcw-home: There are some people that have worked on it but its a complex problem
09:29 AM pcw-home: Not terribly important for standard CNC machines with relatively low accelerations
09:45 AM JT-Cave: is there a firmware for 7i92 + 2 CNC4PC C10 breakout boards?
09:57 AM roguish[m]: JT-Cave: are you going to join the meeting today?
09:57 AM JT-Cave: I'm heading to Springfield today
09:57 AM JT-Cave: be back tomorrow
09:58 AM roguish[m]: please do.
09:58 AM * roycroft notes that there are over 20 springfields in the usa
10:00 AM roguish[m]: JT-Cave: do ya wanna pass on any input?
10:05 AM JT-Cave: springfield mo
10:06 AM JT-Cave: I don't even know what the meeting is about :(
10:06 AM roguish[m]: the merge strategy and 2.9 release
10:06 AM roguish[m]: mainly
10:13 AM JT-Cave: merge is above my pay grade :)
10:17 AM roguish[m]: well, have a good trip. travel safely.
10:20 AM JT-Cave: thanks
10:21 AM JT-Cave: just wotw...
10:44 AM pcw-home: JT-Cave: you could use almost any parallel port type configuration with a C10
10:47 AM pcw-home: (5ABOB,C11,C11G,DMMBOB,G540,HDBB,MX3660,MX4660,PMDX126,PROB_RF,R990)
10:47 AM roguish[m]: pcw-home: how's the chip search going?
10:52 AM pcw-home: mostly OK, having to redesign most cards to use available chips though
10:53 AM pcw-home: even common stuff like OPTOS and power supply chips will be an issue until maybe mid 2023
11:13 AM JT[m]1: Pcw thanks
11:19 AM CaptHindsight[m]: solarwind: if the servo drive is now plotting only circular trajectories will you be sending the drive both Step/Dir and some sort of circular motion info?
11:19 AM solarwind: CaptHindsight[m] there's no step/dir involved for ethercat
11:19 AM solarwind: It's entirely high level position/velocity/torque
11:19 AM solarwind: Like just one command to tell it a destination position and a sync frame to tell it to start synchronized motion on all axis
11:20 AM CaptHindsight[m]: solarwind: oh it's apart of etehrcat
11:20 AM CaptHindsight[m]: nevermind
11:20 AM solarwind: Yes, and they have so many options for sigmoid motion profiles and all that
11:20 AM CaptHindsight[m]: * solarwind: oh it's a part of ethercat
11:21 AM solarwind: CaptHindsight[m] also check your messages!!
11:22 AM CaptHindsight[m]: solarwind: I have none. matrix must be dropping them or the bridge from IRC
11:22 AM solarwind: CaptHindsight[m] oh. I was asking for that RTAI repository link
11:23 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://github.com/NTULINUX/RTAI
11:34 AM solarwind: perfect, thanks!
11:34 AM solarwind: Good so he did upgrade to the latest RTAI release
11:38 AM CaptHindsight[m]: waiting for testers, works here
11:43 AM CaptHindsight[m]: solarwind: he mentioned some other Ethernet messaging that actually works with ~2uS latency vs DPDK
11:43 AM CaptHindsight[m]: i guess DPDK is a train wreck
11:46 AM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe you'll get it working
12:18 PM solarwind: CaptHindsight[m] I already have it working
12:18 PM solarwind: And yes, can confirm the 2µs or better
12:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it always sort of works
12:19 PM solarwind: DPDK is fine, there's also netmap
12:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: on just the right hardware
12:19 PM solarwind: I didn't have any issues with it. Still very alpha level code
12:19 PM solarwind: No, I tested various NICs, it's solid
12:20 PM solarwind: I'm going to open source it so I'm comparing the two implementations. Whatever they have support for with their poll mode drivers works
12:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: we had a 2x 32 core Intel server setup for testing and it used to randomly scatter processes amongst the cores
12:21 PM solarwind: yeah I'm tuning mine to a much higher level - no low power states, fixed frequency, disabled hyperthreading, pinning processes to cores, etc.
12:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: DPDK was just part of it, I forget what ran on top of it
12:22 PM solarwind: If you do all that, it looks very predictable so far
12:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: a proper BIOS would take care of much of that
12:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: but we can't have that
12:40 PM pere: video chat in 20 minutes on <URL: https://meet.jit.si/LinuxCNC-meeting-november-2022 >
03:44 PM mc_chat: Is there anybody around who has compiled the linuxcnc-ethercat drivers, or could help me with an error I'm getting when making/installing the drivers?
03:54 PM solarwind: mc_chat yes, but a bit busy at the moment. What's the error?
03:55 PM mc_chat: mkdir -p /usr/bin
03:55 PM mc_chat: cp lcec_conf /usr/bin/
03:55 PM mc_chat: make[2]: Leaving directory '/home/lcnc/dev/linuxcnc-ethercat/src'
03:55 PM mc_chat: make[2]: Entering directory '/home/lcnc/dev/linuxcnc-ethercat/src'
03:55 PM mc_chat: realtime.mk:33: *** missing separator.  Stop.
03:55 PM mc_chat: make[2]: Leaving directory '/home/lcnc/dev/linuxcnc-ethercat/src'
03:55 PM mc_chat: make[1]: *** [Makefile:12: install] Error 2
03:55 PM mc_chat: make[1]: Leaving directory '/home/lcnc/dev/linuxcnc-ethercat/src'
03:55 PM mc_chat: make: *** [Makefile:11: install] Error 2
03:55 PM mc_chat: Line 33 is -
03:55 PM mc_chat: $(CC) -shared -o $@ $(lcec-objs) -Wl,-rpath,$(LIBDIR) -L$(LIBDIR) -llinuxcnchal -lethercat -lrt
03:56 PM solarwind: I knew that was coming lol
03:56 PM mc_chat: it's resulting in the lcec.so not being built, so I can't get LinuxCNC to load with my HAL referencing it
03:56 PM mc_chat: Is there a simple fix?
04:28 PM mc_chat: FIxed the issue. Used the default realtime.mk from the git pull, and everything compiled
04:28 PM mc_chat: Now it's not liking my ethercat xml, but I'll work through that
04:29 PM Tom_L: paste.debian.net or paste.ubuntu.com pls
04:37 PM XXCoder: yay autocaptions finally on that robrenz video
04:38 PM XXCoder: or dpaste.com bunch of choices for sharing text more than 2-3 lines long
04:38 PM mc_chat: noted
04:39 PM mc_chat: However using the default realtime.mk file has caused a different issue, that is supposed to be fixed by using the suggested changes
04:49 PM XXCoder: lol thjat video is gold so far
04:49 PM XXCoder: typical for him
04:50 PM XXCoder: while I doubt I will ever work as machinist again, I still love his videos
04:52 PM XXCoder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhreM8WK4zE if curious
05:00 PM roycroft: xxcoder: did you get a chance to watch that woodworking video i pointe you to the other day yet?
05:00 PM XXCoder: not yet, still catching up on backlogs
05:00 PM roycroft: ok
05:00 PM roycroft: just wondering
05:00 PM XXCoder: should be soon though :D
05:01 PM XXCoder: im finally starting to turn the corner on this nasty illness
05:01 PM XXCoder: man learned a lot on that video
05:02 PM XXCoder: im close enough I should catch up by today so eh watching video now lol
05:02 PM XXCoder: hey mis
05:03 PM XXCoder: wow big shop
05:05 PM XXCoder: roycroft: I spot a minor trick, he uses surifical wood bar to stop bandsaw breakouts
05:05 PM XXCoder: only thing I dont really like is how dark his shop is
05:05 PM JT[m]1: Yo
05:06 PM XXCoder: wb the jt
05:06 PM roycroft: the way he does his vacuum forming is really interesting
05:06 PM JT[m]1: Thanks, relaxing at the hotel for a bit
05:06 PM XXCoder: roy ok ill get to that evenually :)
05:07 PM JT[m]1: Odd I had to speak before I could see the conversation
05:07 PM JT[m]1: Going to Grizzly tomorrow
05:07 PM roycroft: i was wondering if you were going to grizzly
05:07 PM XXCoder: might be anti-bot logger thing
05:09 PM JT[m]1: It's only 3 hours drive but we wanted to get a good meal too
05:09 PM XXCoder: yeah take a break is good also
05:11 PM XXCoder: damn why is his shop so dark
05:11 PM XXCoder: is he vampire?
05:11 PM JT[m]1: First time out since covid
05:12 PM XXCoder: nice
05:14 PM XXCoder: interesting so far
05:23 PM JT[m]1: What are you watching
05:23 PM XXCoder: this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZOY9DBXprI
05:26 PM XXCoder: roy I watched other video of his and its still dark but less so. maybe its wrong export setting or somethinbg
05:26 PM JT[m]1: He's got a nice shop
05:27 PM XXCoder: huge and dark yeah
05:27 PM roycroft: i think i've said this before, but i'm not super in love with his designs, but i really like his techniques
05:28 PM roycroft: i've never seen anyone make custom vacuum bags like that before, and form them on wiggle board
05:28 PM XXCoder: yeah, that makes sense because crafter not willing to listen and learn from other just because they dislike other style ends up pooer for it
05:29 PM roycroft: i don't think his stuff is ugly
05:29 PM XXCoder: *poorer
05:29 PM roycroft: it's just not my aesthetic
05:29 PM XXCoder: yeah thats what I meant also.
05:31 PM JT[m]1: Is that plywood he's bending
05:31 PM XXCoder: one he made
05:31 PM roycroft: the wiggle board for the form is bending plywood
05:31 PM JT[m]1: 6 minutes in
05:31 PM roycroft: the pieces he's bending are solid wood cut into thin strips
05:32 PM JT[m]1: Ok
05:32 PM roycroft: at 6 minutes in he's starting to cut the thin strips of solid wood
05:33 PM roycroft: but at just over 5 minutes he's cutting the wiggle board
05:33 PM roycroft: which is plywood with all the layers going the same way, so it bends easily in one direction
05:33 PM XXCoder: not sure what wiggle board is
05:33 PM XXCoder: ahh
05:33 PM JT[m]1: Ok
05:34 PM XXCoder: watching baumgater restoration and hes upgrading his clampiator
05:34 PM XXCoder: https://youtu.be/xKDVoATNjEE
05:35 PM Tom_L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlZWc3BFvHU
05:35 PM XXCoder: not because he made a design mistake, its brand new and he realized there can be some more stuff.
05:37 PM XXCoder: I sometimes wonder if it has uses outside art restoratuon lol
05:39 PM JT[m]1: I'm building a corn sifter using bridal joints and center pin box joints
05:41 PM JT[m]1: Pedulla style reminds me of the Mary May episode of the chair legs on the woodright shop
05:44 PM roycroft: if he used a conventional vacuum bag and a rigid form for those pieces it would have cost him hundreds of dollars for the mdf he'd need for a rigid form, and it would take probably half a week to make the forms
05:44 PM roycroft: so even though vacuum bag material is expensive, what he did was way cheaper than doing it the usual awy
05:44 PM roycroft: way
05:44 PM XXCoder: he probably can reuse those bag stuff too
05:45 PM XXCoder: its not like its not plastic anymore after one use
05:45 PM roycroft: possibly
05:45 PM roycroft: the way he cut it apart made it even smaller
05:45 PM XXCoder: yeah
05:46 PM XXCoder: baumgarter restores channel guy uses expensive plastic sheets and sometimes cuts em up but he always keeps em
05:47 PM XXCoder: talking about that guy lol he uses cheap epoxy in that video. a rarity as he never uses such for restoring paintings
05:49 PM JT[m]1: Engels coach works has some good videos for steam bending
05:53 PM XXCoder: clampitor 2.0 is nice
06:49 PM mrec: pcw-home: this will need a custom bitfile for the fpga no?
07:05 PM pcw-home: mrec: no, 7I96S+7i85, 7I96S+7I85s, and 7I96S+7i89 firmware is all standard
07:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: just got back from a graphite distributor and fabricator, the floors were as slippery as an ice rink
07:08 PM Tom_L: surprised they let customers in that area
07:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: they machine graphite parts down to about +/- 0.001"
07:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the guy that came to true up the face of some samples was not wearing a mask, his face looked like a cartoon character after an explosion
07:10 PM Tom_L: like a coal mine worker
07:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: bars were 1/10th the price of the usual suppliers
07:10 PM roycroft: black face is no longer socially acceptable - that person should be careful
07:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yup
07:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: roycroft: just FYI, we have reached the dawn of the end of industrialization in Europe
07:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: since gas prices won't drop in the next few years much of their industry is just calling it quits, or moving production to uhmerica
07:13 PM mrec: gas prices will drop don't worry
07:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: natural gas won't drop enough to keep them profitable
07:13 PM mrec: Taiwan is importing natural gas, and the prices are still okay
07:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Australia accounted for 32.2% of Taiwan's LNG imports, Qatar for 24.5%, and the U.S. for 9.1%.
07:15 PM mrec: the prices will just stay high for a period of time
07:16 PM CaptHindsight[m]: metals, glass etc production that require large amounts of natural gas
07:16 PM mrec: it's all here in Taiwan yes
07:17 PM mrec: if I look back to Germany there are many structural issues within the country, they were just not prepared for that (and prepared is the key, now they need to catch up)
07:17 PM roycroft: gas prices will not drop much more ever
07:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mrec: where do you expect the natural gas to come from in the EU?
07:18 PM mrec: Germany has reserves, they just don't want to get the natural gas due to environment pollution
07:18 PM XXCoder: gas always rise fast and decrease slowly
07:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: gas vs natural gas
07:19 PM mrec: they have 2 lng terminals in Germany now, they did not have them before
07:19 PM mrec: natural gas
07:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mrec: are these the two they started building this year?
07:20 PM mrec: from my point of view (and I ran a business in Germany) I'm just fed up with teh bureaucracy there
07:20 PM mrec: yes
07:20 PM mrec: (that doesn't mean other ones aren't fine doing business in Germany, I'm sure many are happy; I was not for sure)
07:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63751688
07:22 PM mrec: streets in Tainan/Taiwan might not look so nice but all the restaurants are cheap and quality of life is actually pretty good
07:23 PM mrec: Berlin, restaurants are relatively expensive, food quality is low to average, the environment is nice of course ...
07:23 PM mrec: I can go eat outside every day at a low cost in Tainan, and the quality is good
07:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yeah I considered moving to Taiwan years ago
07:24 PM mrec: for doing business it's perfect, Taiwan also has beautiful areas
07:25 PM mrec: taxation ... foreign profits aren't taxed up to a certain amount (which is pretty high)
07:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Germany got 60% of its natural gas from Russia
07:25 PM mrec: Germany.. the entire world income is taxed there
07:25 PM mrec: Russia will recover too there's a time after Putin
07:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the new ports are supposed to bring in about 30% of what they are used to using
07:25 PM mrec: the lng terminals were built within the last 6 months in Germany
07:26 PM mrec: well built / set up
07:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Germany is still 20-30% short on LNG for this winter
07:27 PM mrec: I have no doubt they will find their way, Europe is networked
07:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: France is extending the life of their nuclear reactors
07:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mrec: https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Europe-May-See-Forced-De-Industrialization-As-Result-Of-Energy-Crisis.html
07:30 PM mrec: I don't think the de-industrialization will be the result of the energy crisis
07:30 PM mrec: that's the result of the politics in several countries
07:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: energy-intensive industries?
07:31 PM mrec: many people just talk... just look at bitcoin no value behind that stuff
07:31 PM mrec: the taxes on energy in Germany are crazy
07:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sure but LBG being high means you can't compete with others that get it for much lower prices
07:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: LBG=LNG
07:33 PM mrec: https://www.bundesregierung.de/resource/image/258720/16x9/990/557/659d51fa81b571da54e66a69efd69e73/gw/2014-12-30-strompreis.jpg
07:33 PM mrec: it's German...
07:33 PM CaptHindsight[m]: specialty chemicals are already pretty much just either local and grandfathered in for environmental protection or either from taiwan, china, or korea
07:33 PM CaptHindsight[m]: no problem
07:34 PM mrec: Energiebeschaffung, Vertrieb, sonstige Kosten und Marge 24%
07:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ich spechen a bit still
07:34 PM mrec: production of electricity is 24%
07:35 PM mrec: 16.3% VAT
07:35 PM mrec: 7.2% electricity tax
07:35 PM mrec: 22% umlage nach EEG (that's being used to support renewables I think)
07:35 PM mrec: 5.9% konzessionsabgabe ... to be allowed to do that business
07:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mrec: what the hell were they thinking 10 years ago a cutting deals with gazprom for NG anyway?
07:36 PM mrec: so many useless things there
07:36 PM mrec: Russia did good for decades
07:36 PM mrec: I bet the number of savings on russian gas still exceeds the extra cost now
07:36 PM mrec: natural gas*
07:37 PM XXCoder: stupid https://youtu.be/k5ZdkdNlhFo
07:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: face palm
07:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Russians are just being Russians
07:38 PM mrec: Putin is Russia
07:38 PM Tom_L: if it's stupid, why did you post it?
07:38 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://hackaday.com/2022/11/28/desktop-sized-fully-automatic-loom-is-an-electromechanical-marvel/
07:38 PM XXCoder: why not? dont worry I mostly dont share those
07:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder: tell tom "yer face is stupid"
07:40 PM Tom_L: i don't care that much... just saying
07:40 PM Tom_L: i mostly try to avoid stupid
07:41 PM XXCoder: me too
07:41 PM Tom_L: there's plenty to go around
07:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder: notice how they did not sand sand paper with sand paper
07:41 PM XXCoder: did grind a grinder on it though
07:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mrec: Russia is still Russia without Putin, I doubt that they will have the opposite of Putin running things anytime soon after he is gone
07:43 PM XXCoder: tom did you see that robertz video?
07:43 PM XXCoder: amazing
07:43 PM Tom_L: no
07:43 PM XXCoder: after a year of silence too
07:43 PM XXCoder: a sec
07:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mrec: they were making natural gas deals the same after the invaded Crimea
07:44 PM XXCoder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhreM8WK4zE
07:44 PM mrec: governments can change with different people
07:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mrec: the year after
07:44 PM XXCoder: culture dont change instantly
07:44 PM mrec: what's culture?
07:45 PM mrec: everyone just tries to live his life... and some just follow like sheeps
07:45 PM XXCoder: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture
07:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mrec: maybe it's my history of Russia through my fathers families eyes that give me insight?
07:45 PM XXCoder: im not up to explaining it well so there you go
07:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: their motto was "never trust the Russians" and they were Russians :)
07:46 PM mrec: I think there's no such thing as culture... just following like sheeps
07:46 PM mrec: give the people freedom and they end up like in Taiwan
07:46 PM mrec: remove the freedom and you get what you have in many cities in Germany
07:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: not going to happen anytime soon in Russia
07:47 PM mrec: how comes the catholic church became so strong in Europe? because people like to follow like sheeps
07:47 PM mrec: they did that in the second worldwar too
07:47 PM mrec: they aren't used to have too much personal freedom
07:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mrec: Taiwan President Tsai Ing-wen resigned as head of the ruling Democratic Progressive Party
07:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: what is the local impression of why?
07:48 PM mrec: the south is still democratic, I also tried to ask what's wrong with the green didn't really get an answer about that
07:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the main news site here all have pretty much the same story
07:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.taipeitimes.com/ not much more here
07:50 PM mrec: I think voting blue is more about doing business with china
07:50 PM mrec: relax the relationship a little bit maybe
07:51 PM mrec: but what do I know :-) I'm just low profile in Taiwan and know nothing
07:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ask a local
07:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I like being there or other places where you're an outsider enough to see outside from their perspective and not be too involved
07:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the problem with normalization
07:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder: I spy a Shars indicator in that video
07:58 PM XXCoder: im not familiar with that model
07:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.shars.com/products/measuring/dial-indicators
07:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: a brand that uhmericans poopoo, but have gotten much better in the past few years
07:59 PM XXCoder: interesting
08:00 PM XXCoder: well he being who he is, he could ensure that it is precise for his needs
08:00 PM XXCoder: w2hich is frankly insane
08:01 PM XXCoder: someone once joked about cruddy camera mount arm, he made very very overly precise giant indictor arm
08:01 PM XXCoder: very large and very strong
08:16 PM roycroft: my issues with shars are not with the quality of their product
08:16 PM roycroft: it's their unethical business behavior
08:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: roycroft: what did they do to you?
08:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: all Chinese expats
08:30 PM roycroft: they shipped me product that was defective
08:31 PM roycroft: and when i asked them for a partial refund they gave it to me, and then filed a claim with the usps stating it was damaged in shipping
08:31 PM roycroft: this after i sent them pictures of the damage, which was clearly done at the factory
08:31 PM roycroft: i was contacted by the usps and a demanded to prove the shipping damage
08:32 PM roycroft: i informed the usps that there was no shipping damage and that i did not file the claim
08:32 PM roycroft: they were satisfied with that
08:33 PM roycroft: then i contacted shars and called them out on that, and they told me their policy is to always file a claim, no matter what the cause of the problem, because "it's just the government"
08:35 PM roycroft: all that said, their products are generally of decent quality
08:35 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Chinese victims of circumstance
08:36 PM roycroft: not of the standard of mitutoyo or starrett
08:36 PM roycroft: but certainly up there with fowler
08:36 PM roycroft: for much lower prices than fowler
08:37 PM roycroft: i just have a problem with businesses who openly admit they see nothing wrong with fraud, if it saves them money
08:37 PM XXCoder: Tom_L: https://youtu.be/LWUHlyi-8Mc the huge magnetic camera mount
08:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hhmm who else always plays the victim card?
08:37 PM Tom_L: anybody that can get away with it?
08:37 PM roycroft: and yes, i do understand the cultural aspect of that kind of attitude
08:38 PM Tom_L: i thought mitsutoyo was japan
08:38 PM roycroft: you are correct
08:38 PM mrec: there are lots of copies out there right now
08:38 PM mrec: Mitutoyo
08:38 PM roycroft: i was discussing the quality of their products
08:38 PM Tom_L: i hope so, i just ordered some from them
08:39 PM roycroft: and mitutoyo are up there with starrett and brown and sharpe
08:39 PM Tom_L: mitsutoyo is premium and used mostly around here
08:39 PM Tom_L: starrett is overpriced
08:39 PM XXCoder: i ordered all my mitoyotos via company to msi to ensure it is real ones
08:39 PM Tom_L: brown&sharp fowler are good quality
08:39 PM Tom_L: as are general products
08:39 PM XXCoder: isnt brown & sharp lost some qyality lately?
08:40 PM Tom_L: XXCoder, that's why i got mine from grainger
08:40 PM mrec: Mahr caliper feel better than the mitutoyo ones
08:40 PM Tom_L: they aren't well known around here
08:40 PM mrec: the non digital one is definitely better, I feel like the non digital mitutoyo is a bit flimsy
08:41 PM XXCoder: tom in that video he makes very high precision balls that was lapped. insane. just for camera stand holder
08:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ZHIGULI https://www.ebay.com/itm/313792852351
08:41 PM mrec: the depth rod of the mitutoyo is shaking here
08:41 PM XXCoder: mrec yeah when my brown and sharpe failed certs I got dial mitutoyo it felt bit flimsy
08:41 PM mrec: while the depth rod of the Mahr caliper is precise
08:42 PM mrec: XXCoder: is your depth rod also shaking?
08:42 PM XXCoder: thankfully no
08:42 PM mrec: I have my Mahr calipers in Europe, but the Mitutoyo ones in Taiwan
08:43 PM mrec: Mahr seems to be made in China / though german quality control, Mitutoyo in Japan
08:43 PM mrec: I'm not sure if I have a Mitutoyo fake caliper but I have 2 and both of them are the same here
08:43 PM roycroft: the chinese can make high quality goods
08:43 PM Tom_L: https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-Digital-Micrometer/dp/B00WMLMJH2
08:43 PM XXCoder: problems is clones
08:43 PM roycroft: but they only make things as good as is expected
08:43 PM Tom_L: those are hard to beat
08:44 PM XXCoder: and clones of clones
08:44 PM Tom_L: unless you spend 2k
08:44 PM XXCoder: and clones of clones of clones
08:44 PM Tom_L: for their 'precision' ones
08:44 PM roycroft: the real problem is the way amazon handle things
08:44 PM roycroft: amazon buy genuine mitutoyo
08:44 PM roycroft: some of their marketplace sellers buy counterfeits
08:45 PM roycroft: the problem is that when amazon do fulfillment for a marketplace partner, all of the same item goes in the same bin
08:45 PM Tom_L: https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-64PKA076B-Digimatic-Micrometer-Mahogany/dp/B00XYT1PZS
08:45 PM Tom_L: nice kit
08:45 PM roycroft: so even if you buy it direct from amazon, and not from a marketplace seller, you get whatever the robot grabs from the bin
08:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mrec: know any Taiwanese lathe chuck makers?
08:46 PM XXCoder: roy yeah would explain reviews "wow this is amazing" "this was fake clone!" reviews mixed in
08:46 PM roycroft: yes
08:46 PM Tom_L: they're building yet another HUGE amazon warehouse here
08:46 PM XXCoder: my nephew will work for amazon soonish
08:47 PM Tom_L: they should have walkins
08:47 PM Tom_L: order on the phone and walk in and get it
08:47 PM roycroft: so that set that tom_l just linked to
08:47 PM roycroft: it's only sold by amazon - no marketplace sellers
08:47 PM roycroft: so that should be the real deal
08:47 PM Tom_L: or other vendors
08:48 PM roycroft: right
08:48 PM Tom_L: my kid needed my set so i'm getting another
08:48 PM roycroft: but on amazon.com, i'm talking about
08:48 PM Tom_L: yeah
08:48 PM XXCoder: not bad set
08:48 PM Tom_L: he actually won that set at skills
08:48 PM XXCoder: wood box too. mine is seperate, and plastic lol
08:49 PM Tom_L: the other kid that is..
08:49 PM roycroft: so i've created a big problem
08:50 PM roycroft: i used to feed my cat a little bit of tuna whevever i opened a can to cook with
08:50 PM roycroft: but on thanksgiving, i wasn't making any tuna dishes, and decided to just buy a can for her
08:50 PM roycroft: of course, that's a lot of tuna, so she got some tuna four nights in a row, until the can was gone
08:51 PM roycroft: tonight is night five, and she is demanding tuna
08:51 PM Tom_L: wtf is my tuna now!!!
08:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: pandoras box, do not open
08:52 PM XXCoder: keep eye open this night
08:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: roycroft: just explain to your cat that the holidays are over
08:52 PM roycroft: at $1.40/can, i don't mind getting it for her more often
08:52 PM roycroft: but i don't want to make it a habit
08:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: cats are very understanding
08:52 PM roycroft: um, exqueeze me
08:52 PM roycroft: i used to live in your part of the world
08:53 PM Tom_L: yeah dude... understand this... I WANT MY TUNA!
08:53 PM roycroft: and i distinctly remember that cats back east are no different to cats here
08:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I know someone that got an automated cat feeder that is supposed to be cat proof
08:53 PM roycroft: and "understanding" is not part of a cat's vocabulary, anywhere
08:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the cat figured out how to press the one button for 3 seconds before pressing the feed button
08:54 PM roycroft: I WANTS TUNA NOW! is what i'm hearing
08:54 PM XXCoder: all cats is god to themselves
08:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: now the cat can feed itself whenever it wishes
08:54 PM XXCoder: of course theyre not reasonabke
08:54 PM roycroft: not "oh, i see, that was a holiday treat. well i'll look forward to the next holiday then"
08:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: just tell the cat that it's like candy, you can a little here and there but not every meal every day
08:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: after a couple of days of no tuna the cat will no longer hate you or murder you in your sleep
08:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and it's not murder if it's a cat
09:07 PM XXCoder: its a law, just like if cat dont show you its butthole once a while, its not a cat
09:08 PM CloudEvil: #cats2019
09:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: also a sign of trust
09:15 PM roycroft: it's funny how republicans tend to have dogs as pets, as dogs behave like stereotypical democrats
09:15 PM roycroft: and democrats tend to have cats as pets, while cats behave like stereotypical republicans
11:39 PM pere: roycroft: are you sure it is not confirmation bias playing you?
11:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ebay.com/itm/362306387477 stereotypical dogs
11:57 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ