#linuxcnc Logs
Oct 04 2022
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:05 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://datasheetspdf.com/datasheet/HY-DIV268N-5A.html yuck
12:15 AM CaptHindsight[m]: found some in an older printer
12:15 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/us/semiconductor/product/motor-driver-ics/stepping-motor-driver-ics/detail.TB6600HG.html
12:15 AM CaptHindsight[m]: are these really that bad?
12:20 AM xxcoder[m]: 🙂
12:40 AM Deejay: moin
12:44 AM roycroft: uri tuchman finally released a new video
12:45 AM roycroft: he's moving his workshop again
12:45 AM roycroft: like everyone else has done this year
12:45 AM xxcoder[m]: I know of only one who didnt
12:46 AM xxcoder[m]: but it was because he moved 2 years earlier. just before plague
12:46 AM roycroft: matt cremona isn't moving
12:46 AM roycroft: but he did lose the lease on his warehouse, and is now building a barn to move his warehoused products to
12:47 AM roycroft: so i guess he's kind of moving
12:48 AM roycroft: uri got an old myford lathe
01:29 AM CaptHindsight[m]: whenever I contemplate a wood working project i consider how much stronger and square it would be made of metal
01:29 AM CaptHindsight[m]: and then I do something else
01:30 AM CaptHindsight[m]: I still make custom pallets from wood though
01:33 AM CaptHindsight[m]: i should make a wood+resin 3d printer
01:33 AM CaptHindsight[m]: not a water based resin, so no drying and fast cure
01:34 AM CaptHindsight[m]: would be like 3d printed MDF, only not very water soluble
02:40 AM randy: morning
04:41 AM Tom_L: morning
05:11 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:15 AM travis_farmer[m]: G'Morning, today i have prep for getting a colonoscopy tomorrow... not going to be a fin day...
05:15 AM travis_farmer[m]: fun
07:34 AM JT-Cave: 41°F
09:31 AM beef5994[m]: @roycroft, I actually moved away from Debian to Mint for my probe basic. I was eventually able to get Debian to work, but despite the same kernel on both installs and XFCE on both, I had 2x the jitter on debian, and interface was quite a bit laggier, longer boot, etc. This is on an Optiplex 7050.
09:34 AM beef5994[m]: not really sure why such a disparity, but I'm not enough of a linux power user to figure it out
09:52 AM roycroft: that seems odd to me beef5994, as mint is based on ubuntu which, in turn, is based on debian
09:53 AM roycroft: they all use the same kernel, and for the most part at least, the same device drivers
09:55 AM roycroft: i have mint installed on an old imac in my office, but i don't use it often
09:55 AM roycroft: primarily because there's almost always a pile of papers and/or books in front of the scren
09:55 AM roycroft: screen
10:10 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:34 AM pere: <URL: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=HVn93Brec0k > is using LinuxcCNC. :)
10:57 AM CaptHindsight[m]: roycroft: kernel versions might be the same but configs are different
11:04 AM roycroft: sure
11:24 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by copper.libera.chat
11:26 AM CaptHindsight[m]: once graphics gets involved with Debian and Ubuntu things start to fall apart
11:27 AM CaptHindsight[m]: there are reasons why distros like Mint start up
11:29 AM roycroft: almost all my debian installs are headless servers
11:30 AM roycroft: i can see how ubuntu and mint are appealing to folks who want to use debian as a workstation os
11:30 AM roycroft: but for servers, debian works fine for me
11:48 AM roguish[m]: travis_farmer: hey. good luck with the butt cam. I once worked on a robotic colonoscope.....
01:06 PM Tom_L: JT-Cave, new debs
01:57 PM JT-Shop: thanks
02:00 PM * JT-Shop ponders possible ways to put a 18.5° bevel on a 12.5' PT2x6...
02:01 PM roycroft: i would use my track saw
02:02 PM roycroft: but if you don't have one, you could probably do it on a jointer
02:02 PM roycroft: or even a table saw
02:02 PM roycroft: although pt wood tends to be pretty twisty
02:07 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: "track saw"= Circular (hand) saw with a biiiig ruler that has a rail on it?
02:15 PM JT-Shop: 12.5' long is a bit difficult on the table saw...
02:15 PM JT-Shop: I only have a 3' or so out feed table
02:16 PM JT-Shop: this one is pretty straight for now...
02:17 PM JT-Shop: hmm I could point the jointer the long way in the shop and do it there... even though the shop is 30' wide I don't have 30' of clear span
02:17 PM CloudEvil: Electric plane can do that quite well
02:17 PM CloudEvil: If applied with skill and care
02:18 PM CloudEvil: I assume you mean 18.5 on the narrow end?
02:28 PM JT-Shop: yes 4/12 pitch
02:28 PM roycroft: i've done bevels on my jointer heaps of times
02:31 PM JT-Shop: tilt the fence in or out?
02:41 PM roycroft: obtuse angle between the jointer table and fence
02:41 PM roycroft: that's my preferred method
02:41 PM roycroft: so you set the fence to 108.5 degrees
02:42 PM roycroft: i do it that way because it's a lot easier to see what i'm doing, and also a lot easier to support the board
02:42 PM JT-Shop: thanks
02:44 PM roycroft: but you might want to take a short board, try it both ways, and decide what works best for you
02:47 PM JT-Shop: my fence just has 45-0-45
02:49 PM roycroft: it's not infinitely adjustabl?
02:50 PM roycroft: you could take some short boards, bevel them at 26-1/2 degrees on the table saw, double stick tape them to the jointer fence, then set the fence at 45 degrees
02:51 PM roycroft: that would give you the 108.5 degrees off the table
03:05 PM JT-Shop: I don't understand what you're describing, I just need to tilt the fence 18.5°
03:05 PM JT-Shop: 0° = 90°
03:06 PM roycroft: yes
03:07 PM roycroft: i wasn't sure if you were saying your fence only locks at those three positions or if it's infinetly adjustable within that range
03:07 PM roycroft: if it only locks at those positions you rip a wedge at a complementary angle to what you want
03:07 PM JT-Shop: infinitely from 45° to 135°
03:07 PM roycroft: set the fence to 45 degrees, install the wedge, then you get what you want
03:07 PM roycroft: then it's easy
03:07 PM JT-Shop: with a positive stop at 90°
03:08 PM roycroft: you get to decide if you prefer obtuse or acute
03:08 PM JT-Shop: why do I need a wedge?
03:08 PM roycroft: you don't if it's inifinitely adjustable
03:08 PM JT-Shop: you were cornfusing me lol
03:09 PM roycroft: a third advantage in my eyes to setting the fence obtuse is that you can easly see when you're done
03:09 PM roycroft: i confuse people sometimes
03:14 PM roycroft: it appears there's an epidemic in the wristwatch universe that is is serious and hideous as the epoxy "river table" epidemic in the woodworking universe - watches with the balance wheel visible in a window on the dial
03:14 PM roycroft: and almost as bad, watches with a glass back so that the entire movement is visible
03:46 PM JT-Shop: starlink arrives tomorrow
04:08 PM JT-Shop2: PT 2x6 is cut to length... time for a break that thang is heavy
04:11 PM roycroft: it probably has a 34% moisture content, if it's pt
04:12 PM roycroft: that stuff tends to be pretty wet
04:29 PM JT-Shop: I don't think I'm going to attempt the jointer, that board is just too heavy...
04:47 PM roycroft: not that this is a solution for today, but i would look into purchasing a track saw
04:47 PM roycroft: this is the kind of thing for which it excels
04:48 PM roycroft: when the part is heaving, moving the tool through the part is easier than moving the part through the tool
04:48 PM roycroft: heavy, rather
04:48 PM roycroft: when the part is heaving, my recommendation is to run away as fast as you can
05:02 PM JT[m]1: I'll rig up some kind of track.
05:12 PM * Tom_L feels a fab project is in the works
05:15 PM JT[m]1: Just some temp thing I suppose
05:15 PM JT[m]1: I only need about 1" of flat to screw the metal to
05:18 PM * JT[m]1 uploaded an image: (5735KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/LzSDjbZzxAgjnahhdvQYjXOY/20221004_171605_2997680616076715528.jpg >
05:18 PM JT[m]1: Sitting in the cat house
05:18 PM * JT[m]1 uploaded an image: (396KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/cZLlQxUHMSBnQpvSipgMIKbn/20221004_171717_625299094958422088.jpg >
05:19 PM JT[m]1: But it needs a roof
05:20 PM Tom_L: yeah it might leak as is
05:25 PM Tom_L: will the cat tear the screen?
05:25 PM JT[m]1: Probably
07:17 PM jdh: My cat climbed the screen walls. He weighs 20lbs.
07:19 PM Tom_L: you feed it too much
07:36 PM roycroft: *chuckle*
07:37 PM roycroft: "thank you for submitting a membership application. unfortuantely we cannot accept applications with electronic signatures - you need to hand sign the form and then scan and email it or put it in the mail to our office"
07:37 PM roycroft: "i did sign it - that is my signature"
07:38 PM roycroft: "that looks very much like an electronic sigature, with a font commonly used by adobe acrobat"
07:38 PM roycroft: "that is my signature"
07:39 PM roycroft: "when you submit your ballot you must sign the back of the envelope, and we compare that signature to the one one file from your membership application"
07:39 PM roycroft: "i'll print it out, sign it, and mail it to you"
07:39 PM roycroft: all this from someone who missed the registration deadline by over two weeks and demands to be issued a ballot anyway
07:39 PM Tom_L: and i thought hippies weren't all up tight..
07:40 PM roycroft: i'm not sure if you're referring to me or the member
07:40 PM Tom_L: the group as a whole
07:40 PM roycroft: but i'll say that hippies can be very self-righteous
07:40 PM Tom_L: a few seem to make them all look bad..
07:41 PM roycroft: and i'm getting a serious "my intent is good, so you need to let me do what i want to do" vibe from this peson
07:41 PM roycroft: person
07:41 PM roycroft: i believe they are well-intended
07:41 PM roycroft: but intent is irrelevant in these matters
07:42 PM Tom_L: btw, how's your mill/router design going?
07:42 PM roycroft: and i am *very* familiar with the "fake signature" feature of acrobat pro
07:42 PM Tom_L: heh
07:42 PM roycroft: i've made a wee bit of progress on the y axis
07:43 PM roycroft: it may take a while longer before i get the drive train the way i want it
07:43 PM roycroft: and until this election is over i won't have too much time to work on it
07:43 PM roycroft: we count ballots on the 23rd, and my life will be a lot easier after that day
08:52 PM roycroft: well, spock's brain thief has arrived
08:52 PM * roycroft is finally enduring the worst episode
09:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Tom_L: where was that link to the daily builds of master?
09:04 PM Tom_L: you mean buildbot?
09:05 PM Tom_L: look at the bottom of the buidbot page
09:05 PM Tom_L: links there
09:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: looking
09:06 PM Tom_L: there's also the dev page there with build results etc
09:06 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ok,those are for Buster and earlier
09:06 PM Tom_L: right
09:06 PM Tom_L: i'm not sure about the newer stuff
09:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ah ok,I thouigh I recallbookworm,but maybe I was dreaming
09:07 PM Tom_L: so far, skip over bullseye and look to debian for bookworm lcnc updates
09:07 PM Tom_L: it's possible they put daily builds for it there
09:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: bookworm debs are only at Debian, and not on the LCNC buildbot , correct?
09:08 PM Tom_L: i know there's a fair amount of daily updates for bookworm
09:08 PM Tom_L: as i understand it yes
09:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ok, thanks
09:08 PM * roycroft just finished a bullseye install
09:08 PM Tom_L: if you want lcnc on bullseye i believe you have to build it yourself
09:08 PM Tom_L: so far
09:09 PM Tom_L: pere mentioned adding support for it but i haven't looked to see if there is or not
09:09 PM roycroft: i did not install it for linuxcnc
09:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I have built so many combos this past month of Debian vs LCNC
09:09 PM roycroft: but i think i have a bullseye vm with linuxcnc somewhere
09:09 PM Tom_L: and i have buster bullseye and bookworm on the rpi4
09:10 PM Tom_L: building jt's debs with buster and bookworm
09:10 PM Tom_L: 32 vs 64 bit
09:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I started using Bullseye earlier this year since the latest QTPYVCP required it
09:11 PM Tom_L: i pretty much skipped over it
09:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: but always built from scratch
09:11 PM Tom_L: on the test amd pc i use bookworm
09:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: now I'm mostly using Bookworm
09:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and Sid for all the new hardware
09:12 PM Tom_L: you keep up on daily updates on it?
09:13 PM Tom_L: i didn't check today but last couple days there were 80ish and 60ish updates
09:13 PM roycroft: speaking of 60ish
09:13 PM roycroft: the brain thief is kind of hot, in that way
09:13 PM roycroft: with the thigh-high boots and the micro mini skirt
09:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: starting next week or so we will just be using Gentoo
09:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and Debian just for comparison testing
09:14 PM Tom_L: there are 54 this evening
09:15 PM roycroft: if/when it matters i'll switch
09:15 PM roycroft: in the meantime, debian works fine for what i do
09:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: most of the updates seem to be for docs :)
09:18 PM Tom_L: i know jt keeps waiting for a video update for his new pc
09:18 PM roycroft: and there's the worst line in the history of television
09:18 PM Tom_L: trixie had it but then broke (d13)
09:19 PM roycroft: "brain and brain, what is brain?!"
09:19 PM roycroft: this is not the most woke episode ever written
09:30 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:30 PM Tom_dev: CaptainHindsight, https://packages.debian.org/sid/linuxcnc-uspace
09:32 PM Tom_dev: https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/linuxcnc-uspace
09:32 PM Tom_dev: or bookworm.
09:35 PM Tom_L: mesaflash is also an installable package but to get 3.4.3 you have to build it yourself
09:35 PM Tom_L: which is really a no brainer
09:47 PM roycroft: no brainer
09:47 PM roycroft: that's what i'm talking about
10:37 PM SkoFyx: With regards to PID, since (generally) P passes encoder noise and I attenuates, whilst D amplifies, it seems somewhat possible that a reduction of output noise could be achived by only calculating D when the encoder has actually moved. Anyone tried this yet?
10:40 PM unterhausen: it's not really noise in the way I usually think about it. Jitter maybe
10:43 PM unterhausen: worst case is if you stop on a transition. I'm not sure that's a problem
10:46 PM xxcoder[m]: skofyx https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vqWyramGy8
10:46 PM xxcoder[m]: truly excellent PID video
10:46 PM SkoFyx: What I'm looking at is the digital transition where the encoder value changes 1 step in 1/10000 of a second because thats the rate the PID runs at. It creates a spike it the output. If the effective period for the D was whatever the time since the last encoder edge change, the D result would be softened.
10:59 PM SkoFyx: xxcoder[m]: Good introduction to PID. I'm currently using PID+D with a kalman filter on the +D to tame things a wee bit.
11:01 PM xxcoder[m]: it is! though im not sure how to apply it to your issue since I never used pid on my cnc router. I added magnets and sensor to my spindle but it was right before I moved and dont have room anymore to fiddle with it
11:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: SkoFyx: encoder input is digital
11:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: "P passes encoder noise" is not a problem if you are just inputting actual encoder pulses vs noise
11:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: you can have any type of filter in your PID that you can code or design in hardware
11:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: you should not be getting any noise at the PID input
11:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unless you want to call single counts noise
11:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or similar
11:30 PM SkoFyx: CaptHindsight[m]: Everything I'm discussing here is in the digital domain.
11:38 PM CaptHindsight[m]: SkoFyx: the neat thing about LCNC is HAL
11:39 PM CaptHindsight[m]: you can build whatever component you wish in C or Python and make it a HAL component
11:39 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and easily connect it to a PID or similar
11:40 PM SkoFyx: Um, about that. I'm not running LCNC. I'm running C++ code that I wrote, on bare metal.
11:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ok
11:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I still don't follow you, why is your D output noise?
11:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: since a single pulse is considered input noise by you?
11:43 PM SkoFyx: The shorter your period, the more severe the D result. (I'm running at 10kHz)
11:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: if you want, it's up to you